Super NES or Sega Genesis?

[o.pwuaioc]

Nice to see this all civil and not a whiny fight like a duo of these posts over at NA in the last month.

NA and S-16 are two places that, while there are a lot of cool people and interesting discussions, have just way too much fanboyery to enjoy too often.

[j_factor]

SNES was that first system that allowed for over a VGA level of colors on screen as each layer(of which there's 4) could do 256 colors and from a full run of 32K of them, and could do transparencies, Mode7 scaling and rotation, plus a video mode did high res graphics(Secret of Mana menus), and high color pictures(see Indiana Jones using movie stills.) The sound on it was epic, all using sampled audio and could playback up to 33khz(nearly CD quality) and could run twice the audio channels of the Genesis.

This is inaccurate in multiple ways:

- VGA is 18-bit color (262k colors), whereas SNES is only 15-bit (32k colors) - still way better than Genesis, of course
- SNES cannot do 4 layers of 256 colors each. The SNES has different modes that allow for different combinations of colors/layers. Mode 0, the only mode with four background layers, only allows 4 colors per layer. Consequently, it saw little use.
- Mode 7 is one of the aforementioned modes, it's not a separate effect. In Mode 7 there is only a single layer.
- Genesis has 10 audio channels, to the SNES's 8. Although, counting channels says little.

I don't understand why people feel the need to exaggerate.

[Tanooki]

No actually I'm not wrong, I was speaking of the classic 256 color displayable VGA PC's had in the DOS era. The SNES can handle what I said, it's just that games didn't do it with the visuals as I had explained to me by 2 different emulator authors. I never said that Mode7 was a different effect nor did I say it was on multiple layers either and it's obvious to anyones eyes it's not. The GBA did a 'mode7' of sorts on more than one and allowed for sprites to scale and rotate too which SNES didn't without help (Yoshi, FX2).

I'm not exaggerating, you're having a literacy problem other than me being off on the sound channel total.

[Aussie2B]

I would never want to give up either, but I like the SNES just a bit more. I'm sure part of that is the fact that I had the SNES while it was active (granted, not until 1993), while I never owned the Genesis until it was long dead. But beyond that, I'd say the SNES is just a bit more in line with my tastes. Platformers and Japanese RPGs are tops for me, and I feel the SNES is superior in both genres. In fact, I think the SNES is superior in those areas with just the US library alone, but with my Super Famicom importing, the SNES comes out even more ahead. I adore games like Shining Force and Castlevania: Bloodlines, but when I look at the SNES, it's got the DKC trilogy, Kirby Super Star, Castlevania IV, Super Mario All-Stars, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, Lufia II, and so many, many more. But, yeah, they're both fantastic systems, and if anything, my preference for the SNES just tells me I need to dig into the Genesis library more and try to catch up on all the years I owned a SNES but not a Genesis.

[brainerdrainer]

I keep hearing this question and I keep saying the same thing. Both are amazing. None is better. They both rule

[Atarileaf]

I wasn't talking about games, I was talking about cold hard facts and actual sales numbers. More people owned an SNES console than they did a Genesis and therefore would say the SNES was the better system, so obviously someone that didn't own a SNES but owned a Genesis would go that rout. It does appear that the overall conensus and the general gaming media favors the SNES, however.

The problem with "better" is that's a subjective term when it comes to something like this. I would say that many bought the SNES because of brand recognition - they owned an NES so a SNES was a natural progression as games with characters they were familiar with appeared on the new console.

The Genesis was the successor of the Master System - a System that didn't sell well in North America and didn't have the same brand recognition. Despite that, it seems that both systems sold very well and both are excellent systems to own. Take a SNES and a Genesis and add a Turbografx-16 and you've got a fantastic lineup of 16 bit gaming goodness.

[zachhargis]

Though I love the genesis, I consider the SNES to be the best consol of all time, so I have to go with the SNES. I love RPGs and platformers, so the SNES is my system of choice. But don't get me wrong, the Genesis rocks.

[chrisbid]

I wasn't talking about games, I was talking about cold hard facts and actual sales numbers. More people owned an SNES console than they did a Genesis and therefore would say the SNES was the better system, so obviously someone that didn't own a SNES but owned a Genesis would go that rout. It does appear that the overall conensus and the general gaming media favors the SNES, however.

you must be referring to the years 1991, 1992, and 1993 when sega had a higher market share than nintendo

[j_factor]

you must be referring to the years 1991, 1992, and 1993 when sega had a higher market share than nintendo

Yes, here, Genesis sold better. Worldwide, though, SNES sold more in total, due to its dominance in Japan (while Mega Drive was #3, behind PC Engine).

[tom]

Sales figures are never accurate, as stated in the book Game Over, Nintendo always over exaggerated their sales figures (as did Sega btw).
this was already disproven with the C64 worldwide sales figures, it was always assumed to be 17 mill, which of course, was a huge lie, now to be proven more in the region of 12 million (Still a bit high in my opinion, but there you go)

Also, for many companies sales are 'shipped to retailers/shops etc', not actually sales to customers, no matter how long the hardware sits on the shop shelf or doesn't even sell. Way back it was common practice with the record instustry.

As for SNES or Magadrive, I like both, but the Megadrive had the extra 'cool factor', whilst the SNES 'had the same game again', referring to SMW is just like SMB3. But overall, the Megadrive had the better games in a long run,
not just 8 bit rehashes (With Megadrive it was the other way 'round, 16 bit games were ported to 8 bit)



I just don't understand Greg Fischbach saying 'people don't know how to write for 16 bit yet', Activision's been supporting Amiga and ST for years, but I believe he was more referring to the Nintendo people.

[Rob2600]

Toward the bottom of that page: "Sonic was not a great game..."

Looking back, I'd say Super Mario World is a well thought-out, finely-crafted classic, whereas Sonic the Hedgehog is a standard platformer that was backed by a huge Sega marketing campaign.

[Tanooki]

Wow is that guy ever a fat liar in that book. I remember hearing something of that before but never did see it in print. Trust me people at Nintendo before the stuff hits the market knows how to code whatever they like with the hardware. Miyamoto incompetent on the hardware that'll be a cold day in hell. I do believe though in the era of the companies Nintendo was the most forward about their numbers as they'd quote 'sold' while Sony has always and Sega mostly too said 'shipped to stores' and used them as prop numbers of 'moved product' which was playing with words.

[tom]

A book with input from NCL, Yamauchi, Miyamoto, NOA, Yokoi, Lincoln, Main, Arakawa, Tilden and many more from the Nintendo stable.

You better be careful who you're calling a liar, Lincoln will chew you up and spit you out in court, he's very good at that.

[Tanooki]

Ehh good luck finding me.

[dra600n]

No actually I'm not wrong, I was speaking of the classic 256 color displayable VGA PC's had in the DOS era. The SNES can handle what I said, it's just that games didn't do it with the visuals as I had explained to me by 2 different emulator authors. I never said that Mode7 was a different effect nor did I say it was on multiple layers either and it's obvious to anyones eyes it's not. The GBA did a 'mode7' of sorts on more than one and allowed for sprites to scale and rotate too which SNES didn't without help (Yoshi, FX2).

I'm not exaggerating, you're having a literacy problem other than me being off on the sound channel total.

So you're saying the SNES is the only one who can use the 256 color palette from the early 90's? Cool story. Genesis has 512 colors. Yes, SNES has more available, but it wasn't the only one.

"Mode 7" can be done on Genesis. In fact, is has been done. That's a moot point.

Sprite scaling and rotating can happen on the Genesis as well, even faster than the SNES if programmed correctly.

Genesis has transparency natively. You're thinking of opacity, which, ironically, the Genesis can also do, and without dithering - it just takes a little bit of creativity.

And yes, you are exaggerating.

ETA: Attached is an opacity demo for the non believer. You can use an emulator provided by the one you get your info from.

ETA #2: There's a demo out there showing it's possible to get over 1,000 colors on screen at once with the Genesis, with the possibility of displaying around 1,300 unique colors at once.

[Rickstilwell1]

Spider-Man/X-Men is horrible on the Genesis compared to the SNES version, but I'd love to see someone do a hack that improves both the graphics and audio restoring them to the looks of the SNES version. Technically it could be done couldn't it? Who here thinks the people who ported it to Genesis just did a lazy job and could have done better?

[Rob2600]

Genesis has 512 colors.

Genesis has transparency natively. You're thinking of opacity, which, ironically, the Genesis can also do, and without dithering - it just takes a little bit of creativity.

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? And which games feature true, non-dithered transparency/opacity? I'm excited to know.

[dra600n]

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? And which games feature true, non-dithered transparency/opacity? I'm excited to know.

The Genesis has a 512 color palette, I think one of the most "colorful" games (the most used colors at once) is near 100 with Vector Man for commercially released games (there may be others, but I'm not 100% sure). Charles MacDonald has a demo (I think, or maybe it was Tiido/tmee) somewhere that displays over 900 colors on screen at once using a combination of shadow/hilight mode, mixed with some CRAM manipulation during hblank.

Also, Vector Man's "train" stage shows beautiful background rotation and "mode 7" like effects, and I'm almost 100% positive it doesn't use extra chips on board.

As for non-dithered opacity, some sections of Crusaders of Centy/Soleil (depending on which region you're in), as well as Adventures of Batman & Robin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAGXJE1krqY (jump to when the platform starts scrolling, the Cheshire Cat's mouth is static behind the platform, and you can always see it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17R_eFTCKQ (Jump to 9:30 into the video, and watch as the boss comes onto the screen. Actually, that might be dithering, but still looks really good)

I know there are others, plus if you download the demo in my last post, load it up in your favorite Genesis emulator and you'll see opacity / silhouetting going on. It's not necessarily "opacity" as it's more of a priority/plane/sprite trick where the sprite has a lower priority than plane b, and with plane a still on top, plane b will show through where the sprite is, giving that opacity effect.

The Genesis was greatly underdeveloped for back in the day. There was so much untapped potential (though Adventures of Batman & Robin is a great example of the possibilities with the system)

[j_factor]

Interesting! Which Genesis games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously?

Which SNES or Turbografx games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? Both systems are capable of doing so more easily than the Genesis (though Genny can do it too). And yet, you just don't see it. If there are any, it's likely only for stills or something.

[BricatSegaFan]

Which SNES or Turbografx games display 512 colors on the screen simultaneously? Both systems are capable of doing so more easily than the Genesis (though Genny can do it too). And yet, you just don't see it. If there are any, it's likely only for stills or something.

Hmm interesting point. But a Neogeo can do 4,096 colors simultaneously. Same processors as the genesis right? Just different amounts of ram and a custom graphics chip.