Curious about how DP feels about restoration projects on classic games

[Tanooki]

Well, I don't really know what exactly you mean by "restoration" here.

What I meant basically keeping it simple. I own a game that has a label with some holes and rubbed white parts on the label, otherwise stunning shape, it's Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. What I'd like to do is ask for, and then do the work to have a like for like copy of the label done. I tried a few times over at NA to do this and the very protective types there attacked and tried to discourage me. Eventually I got in contact with a couple over PM who didn't want to get blown out and I got a lead on a label. I found it, it's a true copy down to even the right DPI (same with Lufia II of sheer luck on the same location which I also need.) Then when I've and others tried to get help on the suggestions for printing, again attacks and dissuasion aganist it (even offers for free custom made labels so I wouldn't) because it makes the game supposedly 'not real' anymore or original even though what counts (the board) is 100% solid, shell too, just a shit label. People making good copies to defraud sucks, but it's going to happen regardless just look at ebay or the need for some to use VGA.

Buy a cheap dye sublimation printer. Print cart labels. Done.

I use a sub-$100 Canon for this purpose and they look as good as, if not better than originals (much higher resolution from inkjet versus offset printing).

Laser is NOT the best option for quality, ever. It's really only good as a medium between the quality (but SLOW print rate) of inkjet, and the very high speed run rate (but with the poorest image quality) of offset printing. I.e. great for printing presentation packets and the like for a small business, not so great for high quality reproduction.

On the topic, I could scream whenever I hear this whiny crap from NA. It's my game, I'll do what I want with it. If someone mistakes my replica Mario Party 3 label for the real thing in 20 years, then too bad for them. Like in the automotive world, collectors will need to wise up and know what to look for. It's as simple as that.

On topic or not that's some solid information and I think I'll look into it. Buyatari is right it was a public question and they happen fairly often there. There's now a rule on the site that you can't help people with it including in private messages as they'll check and possibly ban you for it. I had this guy writing me about it and told them I was also signed up here if he wanted more help since I didn't want to get an admin checking my mail. I had another dude congrats me for standing up to the people who go after those wanting to do that stuff freedom of speech and all that. I'm totally with you I get so angry about it because it's like there's this asinine mentality that video games are an entirely unique collection mystique and that people shouldn't have to do their own due diligence or question asking. Instead basically video games need to be like some socialist thing where everyone has the same access to the same stuff and you make due with what you have and that you only do what people say you can do with your property and nothing else, it's like video games are community property which is crap. I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are. When you buy a used car with a new paint job on it, do you have to take a red paint job and white ink on every painted panel saying 'reproduction' on it? Fuck no. If you sell you give receipts, papers, and the rest and tell them that, but clearly not everyone is honest, but that's the buyers problem for being stupid. It's not the job of a small minority of people online to be the video game police.

[Edmond Dantes]

A persons' morality and conscience is based on the views and beliefs of the society that surrounds them,

Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.

As for the topic, I say: reproduce away! Reproduce labels, reproduce boxes! Hell, reproduce the actual games, too!

I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.

[Gameguy]

I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are.

I already explained with books, reproduction parts like dust jackets are marked as reproduction on them. Video games are not the same things as those other items, each hobby has it's own set of rules created by collectors of those items. Every hobby is different.

They are your property and you can do whatever you want to them. You can smash them with a hammer if you wanted to. That doesn't mean I have to help you do it. Go and make your own labels, if nobody wants to help you with that don't bitch about it. Buy the equipment and do it yourself, nobody is obligated to help you.

Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.

Sure there are people who think for themselves and only for themselves, they're called psychopaths. They have no problem doing whatever they want regardless of what other people think or feel as they have no empathy for others.

Of course they're repressed by "laws" that other people decide for them, limiting what a person can and cannot do. Why can somebody be arrested for walking naked through a public park? Who decides that nudity has to be avoided? Who restricts these freedoms? Apparently not society, and apparently none of your personal views were influenced by how you were raised by your parents. Or that's what you're saying.

I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.

You do realize this is a site aimed at collectors, right? Most People here actually care about collecting games and care about the condition of them which includes authenticity, if people are happy to have just have a system with a spindle of burned games just to play them they'll probably not want to be on this site. If all you care about is playing the games why bother with cartridges at all? Just buy a flash cart, they're easily available now and much cheaper than collecting a large amount of games.

Reprinting books doesn't affect value too much, these are marked as later printings so nobody will confuse them as a first printing. If someone collects first printings what determines the value is the desirability of the author and title of the book, and the size of the initial print run for the first edition. A used copy of Steven King's Carrie isn't worth much unless it's the first edition. Even the second edition is only worth a few dollars, the first edition in excellent condition is worth $800+. Reprinting is not the same as reproducing, even I have a reprint of Superman #1 but it's not even the same size as the original comic.

[Aussie2B]

Because there's no such thing as thinking for oneself.

As for the topic, I say: reproduce away! Reproduce labels, reproduce boxes! Hell, reproduce the actual games, too!

I hate collector mentality, and people who think reprints and repros are terrible because they'll somehow harm their hobby (translation: "don't reprint Action Comics #1 my copy won't be worth a quarter of a million dollars anymore oh no!") Games are an art form, and art shouldn't be just for a few snobs, it should be made available for as many people as possible. Rarity is the precursor to exctinction, after all.

If you read through this topic, or similar topics elsewhere, I think you'll realize that collectors/gamers are far more worried about getting duped into buying something that they think is official, only to get a fan-made product, and paying the going rate for an official product, when the value of a fan-made product is obviously going to be considerably less. The idea that the games they already own will lose value or rarity is a FAR lesser concern, if one at all. I mean, look at Sapphire for PC Engine CD. Fakes are a huge problem with that game, but legit copies are just as rare and valuable as ever. The fakes aren't a problem to the people who already have the real deal; they're a problem for the people who are in the process of buying and trying to get a legit copy.

[Tanooki]

Gameguy I never ever said anyone was obligated or required, anything of the sort. If you read carefully my problem was people playing the internet police and attacking over wanting to do something. The classic line of 'if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all' fits the argument best. If you don't agree, shut up, keep it to yourself, but don't make it a point to attack and scare other people off who might or at least point you in the right direction to get the answer you need. That's entirely fair. Thankfully it appears at this site people who want to be jerks and attack someone looking for help get countered with enough supportive help to negate the self centered behaviors.

[skaar]

[Buyatari]

What I meant basically keeping it simple. I own a game that has a label with some holes and rubbed white parts on the label, otherwise stunning shape, it's Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. What I'd like to do is ask for, and then do the work to have a like for like copy of the label done. I tried a few times over at NA to do this and the very protective types there attacked and tried to discourage me. Eventually I got in contact with a couple over PM who didn't want to get blown out and I got a lead on a label. I found it, it's a true copy down to even the right DPI (same with Lufia II of sheer luck on the same location which I also need.) Then when I've and others tried to get help on the suggestions for printing, again attacks and dissuasion aganist it (even offers for free custom made labels so I wouldn't) because it makes the game supposedly 'not real' anymore or original even though what counts (the board) is 100% solid, shell too, just a shit label. People making good copies to defraud sucks, but it's going to happen regardless just look at ebay or the need for some to use VGA.



On topic or not that's some solid information and I think I'll look into it. Buyatari is right it was a public question and they happen fairly often there. There's now a rule on the site that you can't help people with it including in private messages as they'll check and possibly ban you for it. I had this guy writing me about it and told them I was also signed up here if he wanted more help since I didn't want to get an admin checking my mail. I had another dude congrats me for standing up to the people who go after those wanting to do that stuff freedom of speech and all that. I'm totally with you I get so angry about it because it's like there's this asinine mentality that video games are an entirely unique collection mystique and that people shouldn't have to do their own due diligence or question asking. Instead basically video games need to be like some socialist thing where everyone has the same access to the same stuff and you make due with what you have and that you only do what people say you can do with your property and nothing else, it's like video games are community property which is crap. I tried making the car argument more times than I can remember and I get called stupid and that they're nothing at all alike, same with books and comics. But the truth is they are. When you buy a used car with a new paint job on it, do you have to take a red paint job and white ink on every painted panel saying 'reproduction' on it? Fuck no. If you sell you give receipts, papers, and the rest and tell them that, but clearly not everyone is honest, but that's the buyers problem for being stupid. It's not the job of a small minority of people online to be the video game police.

Information on creating identical to retail labels only benefits a counterfeiter. A collector puts no value on a copy so it is worthless to him. People can and will do this without the help of seasoned collectors but there is no reason to help it along. Why would anyone with any ties to other collectors want to promote a practice that will hurt other collectors? Makes no sense esp for something with so little value other than ripping people off.

[skaar]

Information on creating identical to retail labels only benefits a counterfeiter. A collector puts no value on a copy so it is worthless to him. People can and will do this without the help of seasoned collectors but there is no reason to help it along. Why would anyone with any ties to other collectors want to promote a practice that will hurt other collectors? Makes no sense esp for something with so little value other than ripping people off.

That's because your mind is entrenched in the buying and selling. As a collector in his situation, I'd much rather have a nicer copy of my game on my shelf.

When there are 50 copies of Stadium Events on eBay, the only people who are going to get hurt are the people who paid more than four figures for a copy. And why should I care about them?

[Buyatari]

That's because your mind is entrenched in the buying and selling. As a collector in his situation, I'd much rather have a nicer copy of my game on my shelf.

When there are 50 copies of Stadium Events on eBay, the only people who are going to get hurt are the people who paid more than four figures for a copy. And why should I care about them?

For personal use a label that is somewhat close is every bit as good as a 100% identical label.

As for the SE line, well you aren't going to hurt people with the real product with an influx of fakes. You are going to hurt new collectors and even seasoned collectors who will end up with fakes hidden in lots etc. Sure it will happen anyway but giving people hints on how to make better fakes esp a new guy with 1 single post is asking for trouble.

The best comparison I can think of would be for a seasoned autograph collector to post tips on the best way to fake a rare signature so people can have them for their "personal collections".

[Gameguy]

Gameguy I never ever said anyone was obligated or required, anything of the sort. If you read carefully my problem was people playing the internet police and attacking over wanting to do something. The classic line of 'if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all' fits the argument best. If you don't agree, shut up, keep it to yourself, but don't make it a point to attack and scare other people off who might or at least point you in the right direction to get the answer you need. That's entirely fair. Thankfully it appears at this site people who want to be jerks and attack someone looking for help get countered with enough supportive help to negate the self centered behaviors.

It seems the whole reason why you started this thread is because you wanted to complain about Nintendo Age and other people who disagree with you. People give their opinions either for or against it explaining why they feel that way, and anyone who is against your opinion is said to be wrong by you. You then go on again about how other collectibles are treated differently(even when they're not, as with book dust jackets), and why your view is the truth that they're the same thing when they're actually different. You want to compare other types of collectibles? Try artwork, a large part of the value is having the original frame, that's equivalent to having the original shrink wrap on game boxes. Or how about furniture? If a rare piece is refinished you again lose value, sometimes more than half of the value is lost. It's not like with cars where you expect to replace tires, brake pads, and hoses and it makes no real difference.

I'm not a fan of Nintendo Age but if they choose to block the discussion on creating illegal bootlegs or tips that can be used to create possible counterfits I don't really blame them, it's a privately owned forum so they have the right if they want to. They'd rather not take a chance on getting in trouble with anyone, it's the same reason linking ROMs isn't allowed here. You're mad with Nintendo Age because you asked to have counterfit labels made that are identical to the originals and almost everyone there told you no, because they don't want to help contribute to counterfit items floating around.

With that, what are peoples feelings on restoration stuff for old games? Do people feel you just do your own thing and it's your property? Are you the internet police who will go after someone, block, or twist their arm to clearly mark such things as fakes?

This wording clearly isn't condecending or biased at all, you really want to hear both sides of the argument with equal standing. "Do you believe in a persons' right to freedom or are you a fascist?"

First you asked for opinions on the subject as a discussion, next you claim you just wanted help to get labels made and for anyone who disagrees to shut up and keep it to themselves. Just admit that you posted this topic to vent.

As for the SE line, well you aren't going to hurt people with the real product with an influx of fakes. You are going to hurt new collectors and even seasoned collectors who will end up with fakes hidden in lots etc. Sure it will happen anyway but giving people hints on how to make better fakes esp a new guy with 1 single post is asking for trouble.

You reminded me, I actually did see an NES lot on craigslist months ago and reading the end labels of the games in the pictures, there was a Stadium Events in it. Only the label looked really shitty, like a crappy inkjet printing that started to peel up at the edges. Bootlegs are out there and with better labels they'll be harder to detect.

[Tanooki]

Skaar you got it. See I don't think of it in dollar signs, other than how much I may have to sink to get a copy out of my paypal. I'm a collector of sorts still, but a collector who is a user, I play my stuff, and I like my stuff to be nice, but I don't need to be harvesting kidney's to get games. If I can get a game that's structurally great with a somewhat tacky label and pay $40 instead of $100 I'll do it. But it doesn't mean I want it to stay ugly, so if I have a means or can find a means to make my stuff look much nicer I'd like to do that, and I'd like to share that with others in my same position.

I'm not going to say I totally don't give a shit if I'm helping a counterfeiter potentially as that would be a lie, but I think it's more harmful hurting those with a legit motive attacking and denying them info too. At the same time I don't want something that's a mismatch in my pile of games or where artistic license is made and I think it's fair to have something be just right in appearance.

Gameguy you're clearly wanting to twist stuff around, pick a fight, perhaps you are a user at NA and this thread offends you knowing what started it over there. So be it, but if you're going to be pulling out fascist and other word play on things I won't be responding to anything further from you as I didn't come here to start a NA crapping thread or pick a fight. A good reason I enjoyed starting to post here is that people are more laid back and they don't jam ideals on you. I didn't ask for counterfeit labels to be made for me. I've asked for information on where or what to look for, and I've tried to help others with knowledge I've found and am comfortable with sharing.

Going off the thread that inspired it in fair disclosure that guy did register here and I'm further assisting him. At this rate I feel I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

[needler420]

It's alt less difficult than you'd think to pull off a 99% perfect label.

Also, why is everyone talking so much about retail repros as if they're invading the market? I have yet to find anyone or any company that offers US retail repros. I suppose there could be folks making and selling them on eBay, but I'm not seeing it.

You wouldn't know that's the whole point of a counterfeit to begin with. If anyone could just look at the label with a quick glance and know then it wouldn't be a problem.


It's like the old pokemons games. Everyone knows they are the most counterfeited games and tons of bootlegs come from China and Asia. By the time you see it the market will be in chaos just like it is with pokemon games. Old pokemon games still get by the best of us today because of how well counterfeited the games are. The reason for that is not because they are worth a big sum of money. It's because of it's high demand and high circulation along with the fact it does fetch a decent price in the retail market, making it a perfect target for bootleggers.

You could be one of those people selling retail repros on ebay and most people would never know. Between your custom modding work and the fact that you have pretty good gear does leave potential for fraud. You have the ability to do damage if you wanted. Your views on how you expect people to be able to tell and how that you don't think it's your responsibility to inform potential buyers that the label is a repro that you changed is what scares me. Scammers normally stay in the shadows but they don't come out saying their making retail reproductions either.

Reproducing manufacturer quality is getting easier and easier to do on a amateur level and gets less expensive.

[8-Bit Archeology]

[QUOTE=needler420;1964998]It's like the old pokemons games. Everyone knows they are the most counterfeited games and tons of bootlegs come from China and Asia. By the time you see it the market will be in chaos just like it is with pokemon games. Old pokemon games still get by the best of us today because of how well counterfeited the games are. The reason for that is not because they are worth a big sum of money. It's because of it's high demand and high circulation along with the fact it does fetch a decent price in the retail market, making it a perfect target for bootleggers.
QUOTE]

I recently got burned in buying Pokemon GBA titles. I never had any and a friend told me to check them out, since i am a big Link DX fan. It was a noob mistake, I zoomed on the pics and checked feedback, but still. The carts where perfectly colored, clear and the labels looked right. I did not do enough research to find out that the pokemon games have metallic ink. I never have had a metallic ink GBA title so I had no idea it existed. When I got them I got suspicious and popped one open. In "chinese" it said ROM on the chip. And the board serials where all the same [hot wheels stunt track] I am bummed that I can never trade or sell these games legally or with a clear concience. so I will keep them and play them. But it does really suck knowing I have fake games. It may not be everyones thing, but I dont flash, play emulators or buy bootlegs (on purpose). I like having authentic games I once rented as a kid. I dont care about cases and all but I dont want fake.

[Pikointeractive]

Gameguy you're clearly wanting to twist stuff around, pick a fight, perhaps you are a user at NA and this thread offends you knowing what started it over there. So be it, but if you're going to be pulling out fascist and other word play on things I won't be responding to anything further from you as I didn't come here to start a NA crapping thread or pick a fight. A good reason I enjoyed starting to post here is that people are more laid back and they don't jam ideals on you. I didn't ask for counterfeit labels to be made for me. I've asked for information on where or what to look for, and I've tried to help others with knowledge I've found and am comfortable with sharing.

Is funny how there is always a guy that "tries to find the motives of a thread" but it is just trying to troll, crap on, or pick a fight. My recommendation is not paying attention to posts that do not show a well educated point that attempts to bring a solution or some kind of a positive closure to the topic.

To make everyone happy, you can do repro labels with small "reproduction Label" print so you don't get pointed like you are trying to scam and bootleg. Thanks to the big amount of ebay/paypal scams, usually people get defensive when making transaction, so in order to avoid any problem, you should add that small print. Your label will still look nice and would not be considered by many as an attempt to bootleg. Another recommendation, you should NEVER take off the original label, no matter how bad it is, you should use a donor cart of a crappy game you do not like to "reconstruct" your game.

I've sold a couple of times SNES games with a repro label (which had the "reproduction label" print on the design) and I included both the original beat up shell, and the new reproduced one; the shell was somewhat different than the original SNES shells, and it still sold for a very good price.

[Tanooki]

That actually is my working plan, minus tagging it as a repro as I get OCD about weird crap like that and always have. I have one spare clean SNES clamshell front and when I get to the point of doing it eventually the old front I don't intend to wreck, just store. By some chance if I ever tired of NGT or Lufia 2 then I would just do what needs to be done then. But that's just word on the internet so that still gets equal hostility.

[Buyatari]

Going off the thread that inspired it in fair disclosure that guy did register here and I'm further assisting him. At this rate I feel I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

Well I hope when he sells his first bootleg Megaman X3 on eBay that he at least sends you a cut of the profits.

If you really wanted to help the guy the best way to go about it would be to make it for him and slap text on it so one one would confuse it for a real issue. Showing everyone who asks the ropes is asking for trouble.

[Tanooki]

Love the sarcasm. He can bootleg or not, it's not my problem and I don't need a cut thanks. Just because there are some scumbags out there doesn't mean everyone else should suffer too with honest intentions. I gave him a label paper to use, the rest is on him to figure it out.

[Buyatari]

He can bootleg or not, it's not my problem.

If you feel that way then what else is there to say. The thread on NA was locked and rules placed to prevent it because some people don't like seeing others ripped off even if they are not personally affected.

[Tanooki]

If you feel that way then what else is there to say. The thread on NA was locked and rules placed to prevent it because some people don't like seeing others ripped off even if they are not personally affected.

I know that, and I can respect that which is why I decided to post here and ask how this site deals with it and their feelings as I was really curious. I'm glad to see it's a bit more even handed and open on being assisting of others in such things than a total combative shut down is all.

I'm kind of surprised you feel shocked I'd write that as I've said it on NA enough times before so it's not new. The fact is I have no problem helping someone if they need it, and I wish if I asked for it I could get it too without it turning into a taboo ass kicking for it. Sure the argument could be made true or not helping someone could be aiding in bootlegs, but regardless if I say something or not, if the intent is there someone else will supply it anyway or they'll keep digging for an alternative on their own and get it. Since nothing I've shared is private knowledge I just don't have a problem with it. It's not like if I asked if that person was going to bootleg or not they'd be honest about it so asking would be pointless before sharing.

[Buyatari]

I know that, and I can respect that which is why I decided to post here and ask how this site deals with it and their feelings as I was really curious. I'm glad to see it's a bit more even handed and open on being assisting of others in such things than a total combative shut down is all.

I'm kind of surprised you feel shocked I'd write that as I've said it on NA enough times before so it's not new. The fact is I have no problem helping someone if they need it, and I wish if I asked for it I could get it too without it turning into a taboo ass kicking for it. Sure the argument could be made true or not helping someone could be aiding in bootlegs, but regardless if I say something or not, if the intent is there someone else will supply it anyway or they'll keep digging for an alternative on their own and get it. Since nothing I've shared is private knowledge I just don't have a problem with it. It's not like if I asked if that person was going to bootleg or not they'd be honest about it so asking would be pointless before sharing.

I disagree with that idea. People looking to get over (fakes etc) are in short cutting corners to making a buck are at heart lazy. Fakes have been rare up until recently because it just took too much homework to do. These days the ease of getting parts and know how has increased the number of fakes many times over. The easier you make it for them the more it will happen. The more advice you give them the better the fakes will look. Double whammy.

Now when you meet someone in this hobby who goes above and beyond all the others in terms of work ethic it is always for a selfless project that helps out the entire community. That person won't ever give up and gets it done no matter what happens. The other guy looking to make a quick buck usually gives up after a few bumps in the road. So which guy do you offer to help? The second guy? Wasted effort on someone who doesn't deserve it if you ask me.