Perhaps many wouldn't, but they should take caution at least. Producing a game to "expose" VGA is an act worthy of researching the person responsible.
Tools to reproduce games with such accuracy are usable enough for criminal purposes.
Perhaps many wouldn't, but they should take caution at least. Producing a game to "expose" VGA is an act worthy of researching the person responsible.
Tools to reproduce games with such accuracy are usable enough for criminal purposes.
Last edited by theclaw; 06-03-2013 at 06:17 PM.
Lum fan.
Originally Posted by skaar
The only seal that should matter is this one:
That seal isn't good enough.
It's not fraud, not unless you're selling it to someone while describing it as legitimate. The whole supposed purpose of the VGA is to authenticate games, if you send a fake, altered, or tampered game this company is supposed to detect it. Sending in a tampered game isn't wrong, if they grade that game as legitimate that would be wrong. Testing the services of the company seems to be on par with any consumer tests, like testing auto dealerships or computer repair shops which seems to be a regular thing.
So I agree with what Buyatari is saying. People are claiming that they can make fake games good enough to fool the VGA, yet nobody is willing to prove it. I do think it's possible to fool them, I'd just like to see someone prove it.
I really don't see why it should be necessary.
Conceed this:
1) The equipment that was used to seal games still exists.
2) The company that manufactures the shrinkwrap still exists.
3) High quality scanners exist.
4) Photoshop and similar programs exist to remove visible flaws on the scan.
5) Printing boxes of the same quality as the original can be done at a nominally cheap price.
So in theory, it is entirely possible to create a forgery that could easily pass as an original. I don't see why you would need to actually go through the process to prove anything, just like you didn't need to live in the Mesozoic to prove that dinosaurs existed. I mean, Dangerboy already posted a proof-of-concept video of how to create your own "back label variant" for the Playstation that would have passed VGA's standards. Just because nobody has claimed to have got a fake through VGA doesn't mean that is hasn't happened, or won't happen. And when it does, I don't envision it will rock your core belief that grading games is a great way for you to profit.
BTW, I don't encourage fraud or making fake sealed games, just like I don't encourage making unauthorized bootlegs/reproductions.
<Evan_G> i keep my games in an inaccessable crate where i can't play them
If you're going to go through all that trouble, it might make more sense to fake the VGA grade too.
In any case an occasional reliability test is a good thing.
Purposefully attempting to deceive isn't.
Those who dislike VGA could be trying to encourage improving their service instead of talk of undermining them by dishonest means.
Isn't that missing the "of quality" part?
That seal isn't good enough.
Last edited by theclaw; 06-03-2013 at 08:32 PM.
Lum fan.
I would start by saying:
1) There's a difference between having them authenticate something that happens to be counterfeit, and purposely crafting a counterfeit item to submit to an authenticator. The former happens out of one's control, while the latter is an intentional act grounded in deceit and fraud. Logically, I'd assume the folks who'd want to discredit VGA would prefer to make catching VGA authenticating a fraud look like the former than the latter, so they could pull off the discreditng while making it look like an accident that was simply bound to happen. This way said person could dodge the backlash of a theoretical VGA defense force, unwanted attention on social media sites, requests from shady dealers, and potential job blacklistings.
2) Auto dealers and computer repairs don't deal with collectibles. Their standards for quality are grounded in the immediate objective functionally of the product they ae selling more than a collectible grader's ability to analyze how much of a special snowflake a certain product is, and therefore the comparison is apples to oranges.
That being said, I'll just take it that whoever's actually gonna attempt to "expose" VGA is not someone publicly speaking against them in this thread (who is already convinced enough), but someone behind the scenes.
That all being said, I'll agree that Nintendo Seal of Quality went on one too many LJN games. :P
Who is going to object if a journalist from the gaming press does an investigative piece on the VGA? Part of that being to submit a fake for the story. I guess undercover journalism isn't always the most desirable route to take, but sometimes it is the only one available.
How can you test their ability to detect fakes unless a known fake is sent in to them to verify? If someone sends in a fake by accident, thinking it's real, and it gets graded as a real copy, how does anyone know about it?
With consumer tests of car dealerships people go in posing as though they're looking to buy a used car, then they ask about the car's history. Later they do their own research to see if the salesman was honest or trying to rip them off. Sometimes used cars were in accidents and aren't in safe usable condition, they shouldn't even be available for sale but some dealers still try to sell them. Is it wrong for these consumer tests to take place? These people aren't planning on actually buying a car so it's really like they're wasting the time of the dealership. I still think it's good to do.
Or about repair shops charging for uneeded repairs. In these cases an item that's verified as completely functional is damaged or disabled in a specific way, then sent to a repair shop to be fixed. It's a type of controlled test to see if they're charging for uneeded repairs or if they're honest about what needed to be done.
In any case this isn't about testing their grading scale, whether a game in a certain condition should be rated a certain value(though this can be a problem too). This is about being able to tell if a game is real or not, this should be something basic for the services that they're offering. That's really the whole point of the company and why some people are paying more for these games.
It's expected of dealers of antique furniture to know what's real or fake. The wood is still available, the tools are still available, the stains and finish are still available. Theoretically anyone can make a "perfect" copy of any piece of furniture, yet there are still ways to detect fakes. You have to look at patina, oxidation, wear patterns, other signs of age to determine if a piece is real or a later reproduction. Just having the same equipment and supplies might not be enough to make a perfect sealed game, something that looks like a now 20+ year old product. There should be some type of wear on the box if it's ever been opened too, even if it's barely noticable. This is what should be tested with this company.
Exactly, and sending them a fraudulent game to grade is in no way illegal. It is simply putting their grading skills to the test.
Yeah I'm talking more about the fake's motivations and origin in this case. Send it hoping to research or help VGA, rather than with intent to hurt them.
Last edited by theclaw; 06-03-2013 at 09:56 PM.
Lum fan.
I don't think your boxes or your process will pass the test. In theory anything is possible but in practice it is a lot harder than you think to pull it off.
Why not make Action #1 comic books? You could sell those for a quarter million up to a million bucks EACH. Just paper right?
So far the only ones objecting are those who suggested they could easily do it in the first place. That is because it isn't as easy as they made it out to be.
More likely because they have little idea how to go about it. I've mentioned this before, but if you really think your cardboard video game boxes can't be perfectly duplicated, take some of your spare time, locate a printing studio and learn how wrong you are.
This whole thing has spun out of control here. Since there really isn't any evidence that this VGA garbage is having any effect on...pretty much anything, let the people with money to burn have their fun.
Comic book? Too long. How about just faking a simple T206 Honus Wagner card, it's a few inches of paper cardboard stock and the return will be MULTI million dollars. After all, we have scanning technologies, why waste your time with $1,000s when you can scam for $1,000,000s.
Theories are wonderful and all, but no one is going to waste the time or capital to get it started up. Having someone who can purchase the factory machines, having the skills at photoshop is a 1 in a million shot, then it still has to get by the VGA eye. VGA always errs on the side of caution as well... they have rejected legitimate games that were questionable in the past. Example, FFVII on PS1 that looked Mint, but they detected trace glue residue on the seal and ruled that it may have been tampered with to increase the grade. Result, no grade, indetermined.
A more plausible scam theory would be to fake the entire VGA slab itself, so you cut out their authentication process entirely. That is what happened in cards, yet it didn't collapse the hobby or anything. There's a million fake Michael Jordan Rookies out there, so what did they do? They actually slabbed the fakes in fake PSA slabs to trick the novice buyers. Sadly people paids $1000s of dollars for these fakes, but now there's some internet knowledge about detecting fake slabs, rather than just detecting fake cards.
Life goes on...
WTB Clayfighter Sculptor's Cut Manual Only... PM ME!!
I quoted Kiddo because he did seem to be objecting to the concept.
I don't have any skin in this game, but I thought Portnoyd was the one who suggested the 'fake' idea, and he hasn't posted since implying that its already been done, so he couldn't really be objecting. Is someone else promoting the idea and objecting that I missed?
There is no such thing as journalism in the gaming press. This is the most delusional statement in this thread by far.
<Sothy> its the internet <Sothy> who cares
Haha. Yeah, I almost made some statement to this effect myself! And by way of that point, it seems reasonable then that anyone with the resources could legitimately take up the effort we are discussing. "journalist", especially in gaming, means very different things now than several years ago.
Maybe the VGA people don't care about fakes, they're just interesting in grading the item.
Actually, they should just grade the fakes and obviously mark it as such. Then you can say you have a grade 99 fake which makes it ALMOST a near perfect repo.
I couldnt agree with Buyatari more. If someone was to make a reproduction that looked EXACT to the real deal, with the sole purpose of sending it in to see if it will be graded, well, I see no harm in that. Youll just be out a few bucks if anything, or youll be a hero who has exposed a rotten worthless company that does more harm then good. Its more of a test for VGA to prove that they are the best at what they do, or if they are a bunch of sheisters.
As long as the game is not going to be sold, the entire process of creating the repro and sending it is documented, and the only purpose is to test the VGA's "professional" graders, well...someone needs to put them to the test!
And as far as scammers doing this and profiting, thats just that...they are scammers. They are already doing it or VGA knows their way around a fake game. Doesnt mean an honest person cant put VGA to the test, I mean hell, if anything itll get right passed them and force them to change how they grade items after they are exposed, or it will prove that they really know what they are doing. Id like to see that clear proof.
Who is the best Repro Box maker around? Ill gladly pay for the box and materials if someone pays for the Grading fee. Lets do this.
Last edited by Parodius Duh!; 06-04-2013 at 11:54 AM.
My Feedback thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144938
The thing with Comic Books, Baseball cards, etc. These are items that do not come sealed in shrinkwrap (So unless VGA unshrinked the game and tested the cardboards age....but that wont happen) and are put through tests to determine the age of the paper used. 99% impossible to fake and make it seem real. Thats why a company like CGC is needed, to preserve the rare and fragile paper products as well as having a team of actual scientists helping out with the grading. Now thats a 100% legit company. VGA have scientists? doubt it.
My Feedback thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144938
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