Exposing VGA (Video Game Grading Authority)

[bb_hood]

Let me repeat the mantra: VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT AN INVESTMENT.

Exactly, nor are any other collectibles. It is very foolish if you treat them like an investment.
Its nice to see that classic video games are worth something though, it means alot of people also share my hobby.

[Buyatari]

You know what, theyll still be around a long time I bet, because if the idiots who spent money to have a unqualified person put their games in poorly constructed plastic boxes, and slapped a random number on it, then those people wont ever learn. Bringing their MO from Comics and Toy collecting into video games, where things are different since games are software. This company has already made so many mistakes and people like me jump on them, but their fans who use it to make money only care about the days profit and defend it more and more.

From the way you go back and forth from typing about Pinocchio Syndrome and then posts like this, I think you probably are involved in this company, somehow.

I am able to hear both sides and still think for myself.......of course that means I must be the CEO of VGA!

You are free to not like something for any reason but it helps if you read what both sides are saying and then take some time to understand it before you form an opinion. You don't like sealed games and thus you don't like VGA. You are not alone. There are others who do feel that way but emotional investment in other people's property has always been silly to me.

[jonebone]

Quick Question! What college do you go to in order to become the authority on grading video games? oh thats right! NOT A SINGLE GOD DAMN ONE! VGA holds no authority, its some nerdshit in his basement.

Apparently you are misinformed with your definition of authority. You are confusing authority with power... two closely related concepts but distinctly different. Power is a top-down concept; a manager possesses power over his employees. Authority is a bottom up concept, employees grant managers authority.

VGA does not have any explicit power bestowed to them. However, they do have authority passed to them from the many collectors (and even resellers) who use their products. We don't say they are incapable of committing an error, we simply acknowledge that they are the best in the business.

Another example... assuming you are above 18, living on your own and paying your own bills, your parents have no power over you. Yet most of us bestow our parents with authority and still respect their opinions.

At the end of the day, people shouldn't worry about what others collect....

[Graham Mitchell]

It's just amazing how this topic strikes a nerve in so many people.

[JakeM]

There are others who do feel that way but emotional investment in other people's property has always been silly to me.

Its about the overall retro game market. Look at what happened to sports cards and comic books. Those are better justified because theyre made out of paper and deteriorate easier. Their boxes are crap too, when I first heard about them I thought they were vacuumed sealed, but nope theyre flimsy crap. At least we can break them open easily.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

It's just amazing how this topic strikes a nerve in so many people.

Seriously.

I don't take any personal offense by their existence or their services.

However, if they're out there doing a thing, they're game for criticism and I do see some logic in questioning the claims of the services that they offer.

I certainly don't think VGA is to blame for people having non-rare/common games graded and expecting some kind of massive return just because the games are slabbed/graded. People should not be using this service for any game that's not worth at least two or three times the cost of the grading service. Personally I wouldn't even consider it unless I had a game that was worth over $1000.

Also, I think it's important to note that that they have no other peers or competition in the market. They've stepped up to fill some type of void and if it turns out that they're not doing it well enough, some other company should give them some competition. It's a free market.

This coupled with the fact that they don't seem to have any transparency about their process/public representation out there talking about it beyond what's on the site that makes it easy for skeptics and detractors to soap-box against their practices. If VGA isn't out there defending, potentially offering up sound reasoning for the services that they offer - people are only going to see/hear what the critics have to say.

Like I suggested earlier, they really should visit some trade events like E3 or PAX and talk to the gaming public about what they do. I think that might help their public reputation.

[Bojay1997]

Its about the overall retro game market. Look at what happened to sports cards and comic books. Those are better justified because theyre made out of paper and deteriorate easier. Their boxes are crap too, when I first heard about them I thought they were vacuumed sealed, but nope theyre flimsy crap. At least we can break them open easily.

Nothing happened to ungraded sports cards and comic books. There are still more of both than there ever will be collectors to buy them all. The same goes for video games. On your other point, I've actually cracked a couple VGA cases open myself and I wouldn't call them flimsy. They're the same as any of the plastic casing that comic, coin and paper collectible grading services use.

[Bojay1997]

Seriously.

I don't take any personal offense by their existence or their services.

However, if they're out there doing a thing, they're game for criticism and I do see some logic in questioning the claims of the services that they offer.

I certainly don't think VGA is to blame for people having non-rare/common games graded and expecting some kind of massive return just because the games are slabbed/graded. People should not be using this service for any game that's not worth at least two or three times the cost of the grading service. Personally I wouldn't even consider it unless I had a game that was worth over $1000.

Also, I think it's important to note that that they have no other peers or competition in the market. They've stepped up to fill some type of void and if it turns out that they're not doing it well enough, some other company should give them some competition. It's a free market.

This coupled with the fact that they don't seem to have any transparency about their process/public representation out there talking about it beyond what's on the site that makes it easy for skeptics and detractors to soap-box against their practices. If VGA isn't out there defending, potentially offering up sound reasoning for the services that they offer - people are only going to see/hear what the critics have to say.

Like I suggested earlier, they really should visit some trade events like E3 or PAX and talk to the gaming public about what they do. I think that might help their public reputation.

All of your points are valid ones. Unfortunately, that's never what the vast majority of people who take issue with VGA seem to be concerned about. Instead, they take the position that only they understand what collecting is about and that anyone who collects in a different manner than they do is not a legitimate collector and is harming the hobby. The reality is that the same criticisms about collecting VGA can be made about sealed games and can be made about collecting CIB games. Frankly, if all you really care about is playing games, you can just buy loose cartridges and discs and for those games that require them, instruction manuals. Of course, I've never heard anyone take the position that collecting boxed games leads to higher prices on loose games and less supply, but it's certainly a more logical attack than that sealed games and rarer still VGA graded games are impacting prices or reducing supplies of playable games.

[o.pwuaioc]

All of your points are valid ones. Unfortunately, that's never what the vast majority of people who take issue with VGA seem to be concerned about. Instead, they take the position that only they understand what collecting is about and that anyone who collects in a different manner than they do is not a legitimate collector and is harming the hobby. The reality is that the same criticisms about collecting VGA can be made about sealed games and can be made about collecting CIB games. Frankly, if all you really care about is playing games, you can just buy loose cartridges and discs and for those games that require them, instruction manuals. Of course, I've never heard anyone take the position that collecting boxed games leads to higher prices on loose games and less supply, but it's certainly a more logical attack than that sealed games and rarer still VGA graded games are impacting prices or reducing supplies of playable games.

That's highly exaggerated. So some people don't like sealed collecting. Big whoop! Who cares? It's their right to have that opinion. They have the right to criticize, same as you or anyone else.

And from my experience, the vast majority of people who attack the VGA attack it on account of its lack of transparency and obvious scam-like operation. Most of those just so happen to also not get sealed collecting, as most video game collectors do, and a small minority openly belittle sealed collectors. (Anyone who gets their game VGA graded though deserves the belittlement.)

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

All of your points are valid ones. Unfortunately, that's never what the vast majority of people who take issue with VGA seem to be concerned about. Instead, they take the position that only they understand what collecting is about and that anyone who collects in a different manner than they do is not a legitimate collector and is harming the hobby. The reality is that the same criticisms about collecting VGA can be made about sealed games and can be made about collecting CIB games. Frankly, if all you really care about is playing games, you can just buy loose cartridges and discs and for those games that require them, instruction manuals. Of course, I've never heard anyone take the position that collecting boxed games leads to higher prices on loose games and less supply, but it's certainly a more logical attack than that sealed games and rarer still VGA graded games are impacting prices or reducing supplies of playable games.

Oh yeah, totally.

That stuff I don't even really pay attention to.

I thought Dangerboy brought up some good points in his video. Some I agreed with, some I didn't ... but people over-reacting in this hobby/on the internet isn't going away any time soon.

[Bojay1997]

That's highly exaggerated. So some people don't like sealed collecting. Big whoop! Who cares? It's their right to have that opinion. They have the right to criticize, same as you or anyone else.

And from my experience, the vast majority of people who attack the VGA attack it on account of its lack of transparency and obvious scam-like operation. Most of those just so happen to also not get sealed collecting, as most video game collectors do, and a small minority openly belittle sealed collectors. (Anyone who gets their game VGA graded though deserves the belittlement.)

It's not highly exaggerated at all. Just take a look at this very thread. There is literally one, maybe two people who are actually focused on the issues raised in the video and everyone else against VGA simply because they don't believe there is any reason to ever have a game graded let alone keeping one sealed. I would agree with you that there is a lack of transparency with regard to VGA. That's not the same as being a "scam-like operation".

[Buyatari]

It's not highly exaggerated at all. Just take a look at this very thread. There is literally one, maybe two people who are actually focused on the issues raised in the video and everyone else against VGA simply because they don't believe there is any reason to ever have a game graded let alone keeping one sealed. I would agree with you that there is a lack of transparency with regard to VGA. That's not the same as being a "scam-like operation".

For sure. Some scam where the people who purchase it the most are the happiest with the product and the biggest complaints are from those who not only don't use it but have no use for it.

They are the SNL Conehead family sitting around complaining about the new barber shop that moved into town.

He is right though. They are free to sit around and complain about services they don't use and have no use for if they want. It is at the heart of the matter emotional and most of the arguments makes no sense if they try to explain it but they just don't like it.

[JakeM]

You guys are really going to hate it when theres another company that comes along, is completely transparent, and has actual qualified experts who have backgrounds in preservation of collectibles and video games, and makes all your VGA grades worthless. Theres no point in putting money in their pockets if one day there will be a much better company that does it.

These people are affecting game prices online, because its an artificial reason to increase the prices of things. I have a problem with that, and I cant believe you guys dont. Once theres a better company youll see what fools youve been.

[Bojay1997]

You guys are really going to hate it when theres another company that comes along, is completely transparent, and has actual qualified experts who have backgrounds in preservation of collectibles and video games, and makes all your VGA grades worthless. Theres no point in putting money in their pockets if one day there will be a much better company that does it.

These people are affecting game prices online, because its an artificial reason to increase the prices of things. I have a problem with that, and I cant believe you guys dont. Once theres a better company youll see what fools youve been.

You're incorrect. There are multiple grading services in many hobbies and that results in better prices and higher quality services for the consumer who uses them. It also hasn't caused the graded items from the first service to be disregarded by the collecting community as long as their methods were consistent and careful which as far as I can tell is the case with VGA thus far.

The only thing that has increased is the price of VGA games as more collectors have gone that route increasing demand for the highest grades of certain games. For the rest of us who couldn't care less about grading or VGA, it has had zero impact.

[jonebone]

You guys are really going to hate it when theres another company that comes along, is completely transparent, and has actual qualified experts who have backgrounds in preservation of collectibles and video games, and makes all your VGA grades worthless. Theres no point in putting money in their pockets if one day there will be a much better company that does it.

These people are affecting game prices online, because its an artificial reason to increase the prices of things. I have a problem with that, and I cant believe you guys dont. Once theres a better company youll see what fools youve been.

I actually would love for another REPUTABLE company to enter the market, turnaround time and costs would come down due to competition. Sealed collectors are collecting the games, not the VGA cases. The VGA cases are merely a way of protecting your games, verifying that they are authentic, and assigning an independent "expert" grade to it.

I don't need VGA to tell me how Mint my games are, I'm well aware of it. But it does level the playing field. If I'm trading with another collector, his Mint may not match my Mint. And when you get into sealed games, a million pictures are no substitute for holding a game in hand. There are subtle things like scuffing and concavity that you won't notice until the game is in hand.

So VGA creates that independent scale. If I'm trading an 85 game, the person knows exactly what they are getting. If I'm buying an 85, I know exactly what I'm getting.

My problems with VGA are the turnaround times and the play in the grades sometime (overgraded or undergraded games). But as I've mentioned, they are the best solution currently and I support them. If a better solution comes along I will gladly support them, but to imply that VGA games would be worthless is pure ignorance. Many hobbies support multiple grading authorities such as PSA and BGS in baseball cards....

[JakeM]

Ok, its your money and your games, but theyre going to end up like other quack experts in other fields of collecting or preservation authenticating, their seals and documents will be ignored by more serious stores and collectors once someone else comes along whos way better.

[kupomogli]

A well stated video but even IF VGA's grading services add no legitimate value or protection to a service, I don't think that the term "pyramid scheme" is accurate.

Yes, they're advertising a potential increased return on your game investment through giving it the VGA service, but VGA are not enlisting buyers of their services to go out and recruit others to have their games VGA graded for some type of tiered or incentivized pay-out.

So, clearly some questionable practices examined, but I don't think it's a "pyramid scheme" proper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Personally, I don't have any vested interest in VGA or VGA related activities since I'm not a sealed game collector and I don't ever have any valuable sealed games to sell.

Also, I wish the VGA would be more public/transparent about themselves and the services that they offer. Not sure if that would make anything better ... but being clandestine about stuff like this and professing to be an "authority" while simultaneously not participating in industry events or public things ... you're going to rustle up your critics pretty quickly.

I've said it's a pyramid scheme prior to this thread. Here's the reason why I consider it one. You've got one person or group that does this grading and then there are people who have graded their games that promote it. Whether it's showing off their graded collection, trying to sell this garbage on Ebay, etc. While most people dislike grading and see there's no value to it, there are other people who will buy into it. The person or people at the top of VGA, the ones who grade these games are profitting from it while everyone else who thinks this actually adds value to their games are just being suckered into spending more and more money by getting their games graded.

While the people who are spreading the news of VGA and grading aren't making anything from it. They're still spreading the idea around, which makes it a pyramid scheme.

[Buyatari]

Once theres a better company youll see what fools youve been.

I'd love to see a better company. Why wouldn't the people who use the service want a better product?

[Bojay1997]

I've said it's a pyramid scheme prior to this thread. Here's the reason why I consider it one. You've got one person or group that does this grading and then there are people who have graded their games that promote it. Whether it's showing off their graded collection, trying to sell this garbage on Ebay, etc. While most people dislike grading and see there's no value to it, there are other people who will buy into it. The person or people at the top of VGA, the ones who grade these games are profitting from it while everyone else who thinks this actually adds value to their games are just being suckered into spending more and more money by getting their games graded.

While the people who are spreading the news of VGA and grading aren't making anything from it. They're still spreading the idea around, which makes it a pyramid scheme.

What you are describing is not a pyramid scheme. You are simply describing a service that the users of the service like and therefore promote with positive word of mouth and by continuing to use it. If that is what a pyramid scheme is, every small business in America is a "pyramid scheme".

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I've said it's a pyramid scheme prior to this thread. Here's the reason why I consider it one. You've got one person or group that does this grading and then there are people who have graded their games that promote it. Whether it's showing off their graded collection, trying to sell this garbage on Ebay, etc. While most people dislike grading and see there's no value to it, there are other people who will buy into it. The person or people at the top of VGA, the ones who grade these games are profitting from it while everyone else who thinks this actually adds value to their games are just being suckered into spending more and more money by getting their games graded.

While the people who are spreading the news of VGA and grading aren't making anything from it. They're still spreading the idea around, which makes it a pyramid scheme.

What you're describing is not a "pyramid scheme".

Here's an example that would fit the bill - If VGA was franchising out "grading licenses" to individuals that gave them the right to grade and slab games, those licenses carried high fees, and those licensed graders were also permitted (or more likely REQUIRED) to recruit more "licensed graders", with the promise of getting a small small percentage of the license fee for each recruit (which is set up to be an intentionally small percentage that is never really enough to cover the grader's own initial/annual license fee) and all the main money for the fees went to the top but nobody below the top level truly profited - THAT would be a pyramid scheme.

If you want to learn more about "pyramid schemes" just read the wiki that I had previously linked to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme