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Thread: Playing Genesis (and possibly other systems) ONline against remote human opponents.

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    Default Playing Genesis (and possibly other systems) ONline against remote human opponents.

    I was talking to Anthony Gaccione of Sega of America. A few weeks ago, I presented him an idea to turn old video games into old online video games, without reprogramming any code for said original games. I'll tell you my secret I'm selling you n in a minute. He liked the idea, but Said Sega couldn't fund it. I found a place called TryCelery.com which would let me sell preorders, contacted Anthony again, and he told me to go for it, and let him know when I raised the money and did the research.

    If I sell 1000 units, I will have enough money to make 1000 and pay for the prototypes, assuming the cost of building a net Genesis is under $20 wholesale. Which it should be because AtGames offered a Genesis and 40 Genesis ROMs and 40 of their own ROMs for $40 retail. I'm not asking for their ROMs yet. They're not important intrinsically to the system.

    The basic theory I have is that EVERY old game will work if you are able to beat a 16 ms ping time. Cleveland to Chicago is 600 km, or 2 light milliseconds apart (Light speed is 300,000 km/s) Yet ping times on a typical network are from 40-75 ms. The network was originally a phone network that had to be rock solid and still survive if a place got nuked. The cost of getting you there surely was about 30-100 ms.

    Sega Dreamcast suggested all you need is dial up for a good gaming network. They had it half right. Xbox suggests you need broadband to make online gaming work. They have the other half right. A lot of Dreamcast online games were pingy. Xbox games had people pop out of your sights in shooters. Chu Chu Rocket theoretically need only 32 bits/cycle or 1920 bits/second assuming 60 frames/second. CURSOR N,S,E,W, ARROW N,S,E,W, X 4 PLAYERS. The one thing Sega didn't figure on was Ping Time. Japan is a way smaller nation than the US or the EU. Microsoft figured if you can't shave off ping time, take lots of data including every piece of shrapnel and have the network ref it. Microsoft had a good workaround, use high bandwidth to compensate for poor ping time, but if Ping times were better, Sega would have had the better strategy

    I found a connection to get you there in 1 ms for every 200-300 km (depending on efficiency). It's Sprint Direct Connect or similar services from At&T and Verizon. I plan to take what is a talking network, convert it to analog squelches, transmit them via Push to Talk, and connect people quick enough. Analog squelches give you 33 kb/s. But if you've got low ping times, you don't need to truck data by the Meg full to have enough information. In this case, quicker is better than more.

    A side effect of that, EVERY 2-player (or more) game, no matter how great or obscure will work with the network, because the machine will read in data as fast as it needs to register it. So you can play Combat for the 2600, or M.A.D. for the 2600. And if you don't know what M.A.D. is, my point exactly. It's the most obscure 2-player simultaneous game in my 2600 collection. (though probably someone who is richer than I can probably out-obscure me.)

    I am in talks with SNK Playmore and WB Games for the rights to make Net Neo Geos and Net Astrocades. Coleco last time said Net Colecovision is cool, but couldn't fund it. Maybe they'll let me offer preorder Net Colcovisions and Net Geminis (basically a 2600 using off the shelf parts back in the 80s). Finally, I have to talk to Atari and Intellivision for a net 2600 and Net intelliviision respectively. Originally I asked if they can fund now. Now I just need permission to offer pre-orders for net versions of their systems.

    The website is http://tryCelery.com/shop/netrogames

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    This could probably be a cool idea as long as it works the way it's supposed to. I hope that you get it off the ground because it could be fun to play something like this.

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    That's the craziest wall of text I've ever read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c0ldb33r View Post
    That's the craziest wall of text I've ever read.
    Sorry about the text wall, I just had a lot to say. If I did a short text, most people would say I'm doing crazy babbling. Turning ordinary games online only sounds crazy if you don't beat the ping time. But someone thought it was coherent.

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    I like the idea, but $125 up front is a lot to ask for this kind of of unproven thing. Interesting ideas need something to back them up. Wouldn't this be feasible in software emulation? That's where I'd want to see a proof of concept. It's hard enough to find people to play with on established, mainstream systems.

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    Kaillera or GGPO?

    I just don't see the point of standalone console-clones to do this. The market for it simply isn't there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr3tty F1y View Post
    Kaillera or GGPO?

    I just don't see the point of standalone console-clones to do this. The market for it simply isn't there.
    Which net code? The answer is low-ping (sub 16 ms), natural just like it's local.

    As for market of clone systems: It's actually a system of clones. There's one network device which would cost $75, initially. (The research costs $17k, and I don't want people paying hefty fees for research. So I'm splitting over 1000 systems. And I'm trying to give myself financial room. If it turns out cheaper than I expect, maybe a partial refund or free other systems would be in order as a thank you.)

    The 1:1 clones attach to this network device. These clones are designed to work specifically with this device. But if you don't take it online, you'll still have an original console. 2 other things worth mentioning. The $125 includes a Genesis and a Netrogames device, but future systems will be cheaper. You don't have to buy the most expensive part, the network adapter, again. So you can add a Saturn or Dreamcast to the already existing (once it does) Netrogames device.

    And if Sega approves, for games you don't own cartridges of, we're testing the concept of adverware, free, Sega-authorized downloads and all you have to do is watch one commercial when the system boots, (at least the ones they have the right to distribute in such a way) and play as long as you want afterwords, or until you change remote human opponents, which will cause the machine to reset. And because the Genesis doesn't change hardware-wise, there's no need to update.

    Unlike Xbox, Playstation and Nintendo which chew up ad spit out an old console when it's done and stop supporting online. If this works, it will retroactively turn everyting online, with one generic server just trafficking joystick and minor other data.

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    So it's almost XBAND 2.0? Only you have to buy a new system and pay more per month for that special Sprint phone service?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Flojomojo View Post
    I like the idea, but $125 up front is a lot to ask for this kind of of unproven thing.
    Particularly so when there are already less cumbersome, free methods to do the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameguy View Post
    So it's almost XBAND 2.0? Only you have to buy a new system and pay more per month for that special Sprint phone service?


    glad I wasn't the only one thinking x band

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    There's one major and very important difference. XBand only works with games programmed for it. Netrogames will work with EVERY 2-or-more-player game wihtout any special server profile. Xband only worked with 2 or 3 games that the Xband people decided should work with it. I think it was one of the Street Fighter games and one of the Mortal Kombat games. So you could play Herzog Zwei with my device without programming a specific Herzog Zwei profile. The secret is beating the ping time problem.

    UPDATE on Push to Talk Networks: There are only 2 push to talk networks. Verizon and Sprint. Verizon uses 1xrtt which is dial-up speeds and can only have one person "talk" (really squelch) at once. Everyone else listens, and "race" to see who inputs first. Sprint can have 20 simultaneous inputs as 20 separate streams. So in that sense, it's a moderately high speed modem with low ping times. It just that the machine combines them. If I can get to it before it combines the 20 streams, then you can have a 3G-4G low-ping gaming modem that can double as a free unlimited nationwide phone line. It's just if you use it as a modem, it "eats" your phone line, just like Dial Up.

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    I was wrong, there were around 10 Genesis and 10 SNES games that worked with it. But my point is exactly the game, the server had to be programmed to accept it, which only meant the most popular games at that time it came out. It didn't work with Herzog Zwei for example. I know my friend, and nationally known pro gamer, Jamal "Zophar321" Nickens would love to play Herzog Zwei against random humans.

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    I have played the Genesis over the internet using the Mega EverDrive. KRIKzz wrote a simple pong game that worked with the Mega EverDrive to play over the internet. In Gamester81's review of the Mega EverDrive you can see me playing him as well. Granted it did not work very well, but I think that's more to do with the game KRIKzz wrote, which was very simple. I am sure if someone say down and wrote better code it would have been smoother.

    Obviously playing regular Genesis games may not actually work, at least without being hacked somehow to work with the MegaED and the internet. Even if you duplicated the moved back and forth lag would cause them to quickly get out of sync.
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    I'm not following most of this. Why do you need $17K for research? Isn't this something you could test out for little or no money to create a proof of concept and then once you have that, take preorders to see if enough people are interested? What is the $17K for?

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    Boja, I need 17,000 for a completed prototype. Then I need to build a thousand Net Genesises. I'm intentionally pricing myself high, so that if it comes under budget, some money will be refunded, but I don't know how much it's going to cost until I invest about $500 in analysis. Davison said they can build 2 prototypes and plans to mass produce it for $17,000. It could be less, but that's the maximum. I need $40 to build the Genesis portion of the device. (Again it may actually be less, but better be prepared and refund money not used than take money and realize I'm short and screw myself. I'm just going of the AtGames Genesis price) and the networking device is the most expensive part of it, but should cost no more than $85.

    StoneAgeGamer, the whole point of my invention is to push data through in under half a frame, hence the special Sprint connection, which advertises itself as Direct Connect, and says its ping times are anywhere from 1.1 ms-2.5 ms for every 300 km of distance, compared to 40-75 for DSL 600 km apart, between Cleveland and Chicago, which gives you a decent cushion to fit under 16 ms two ways for a 60 FPS game. My theory is if you're able to beat half a frame ping time, then ANY GAME, no matter how great or obscure, will be turned online.

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    Besides Boja, actually having a product is better than just "pay to fund my research" If you want more info about it, call 1-866-DAVISON Ext 50028 and tell Daniel Karteski that you want to know how real this is and their claim is.

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    I like this idea, I can help fund it etc. Pm me with details.

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    Maybe I'm just not understanding how this would work on a technical level.

    Having a good ping time makes sense from the stand point of lag and sync. I'm not arguing that. However, if this is some sort of system-specific "lock-on technology," how are you going to filter out just the game's input code to transmit and sync between both sides (to my understanding, this is why XBand only supported a limited number of games and was coded to patch them individually). I'm assuming the device would have to be between the cartridge and the system, especially if there is going to be some sort of matching service (i.e., patch the game to wait, sync-up, identify specific input code, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tripletopper View Post
    Boja, I need 17,000 for a completed prototype. Then I need to build a thousand Net Genesises. I'm intentionally pricing myself high, so that if it comes under budget, some money will be refunded, but I don't know how much it's going to cost until I invest about $500 in analysis. Davison said they can build 2 prototypes and plans to mass produce it for $17,000. It could be less, but that's the maximum. I need $40 to build the Genesis portion of the device. (Again it may actually be less, but better be prepared and refund money not used than take money and realize I'm short and screw myself. I'm just going of the AtGames Genesis price) and the networking device is the most expensive part of it, but should cost no more than $85.

    StoneAgeGamer, the whole point of my invention is to push data through in under half a frame, hence the special Sprint connection, which advertises itself as Direct Connect, and says its ping times are anywhere from 1.1 ms-2.5 ms for every 300 km of distance, compared to 40-75 for DSL 600 km apart, between Cleveland and Chicago, which gives you a decent cushion to fit under 16 ms two ways for a 60 FPS game. My theory is if you're able to beat half a frame ping time, then ANY GAME, no matter how great or obscure, will be turned online.
    Honestly, maybe there is a language barrier or perhaps you are really well beyond my limited intelligence level, but why would analysis cost anything? Why couldn't you just build a couple of prototypes by hand using standard off the shelf components to test the theory about this thing working? If that works, you'd have proof of concept and you could move forward with a working mass production prototype for the $17K. The market for this type of thing is super limited anyway, but forcing people to use a specific connection that may not be available everywhere and which costs a monthly fee is an absolute product killer. There is no way 1,000 people or more would ever pay for something like that and they certainly aren't going to pay you to do research for something that is likely not to even work as expected.
    Last edited by Bojay1997; 04-25-2014 at 06:01 PM.

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    Boja, because I'm not handy enough myself in building such a thing, but I do believe I understand the theory correctly, and I know what technology currently exists. If you can beat that research cost, I'll give you a cut of the business. That's why I'm long-winded on theory, but light in the actual practice. If I knew how to solder a Genesis so I can route joystick, random number, and timestamp data into and out of a network device, and alter a Sprint Direct Connect device to keep 20 separate inputs are kept separate, instead of merging them before you get to the phone, I would go ahead and do it. I need soem help i this department. Davison said they can do it for $17,000 + 10%. Beat that price and you can have the contract. There, I said it.

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