NA: Inappropriate usage of the Nintendo Seal and ESRB logo...

[stardust4ever]

Doing a quick repost of my previous rant that got deleted from NA this morning by an "anonymous" moderator:

Google Cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

I thought it needed to be discussed so I'm reposting it here. NA moderators seem to have voted on the issue with the delete key, but I feel it's a very widespread problem with repros and homebrews. Instead of locking it they just vaporized it. No warning, PMs, nothing. Not gonna bring it up the topic again on NA lest they decide to give me the ban-hammer like so many others...

I've seen countless instances of the official Nintendo Seal, official Sega Seal, etc, as well as ESRB logos stuck on just about everything. No unlicensed company was stupid enough to do this back in the day, so why are we doing it now?

I understand that repros and hacks are in kind of a gray area as far as copyright goes. Technically, we are distributing orphaned games and derivative works that we do not hold the rights to. I also understand that it is a fantasy by many gamers that these titles could possibly have been released back in the day, and artists may be inspired to create label and box art to reflect this fantasy.

Secondly, the quality seals and ratings logos were created by game companies and governing bodies to let consumers know that the product was/is a legitamate and fully endorsed product. With all the outcry over the market being flooded with "fake" games, why on Earth are we contributing to this "pool" of fakes by cloning the logos and styles of the originals?

Shouldn't repro makers try to distinguish their product from genuine original games? Making slight modifications to the Seal, for example RetroUSB's Sealy Computing logo, while cute, still don't cut it. At first glance, a total stranger may be fooled.

I'm thinking in the long term if repro makers continue to harvest old carts and unwanted games to make their hacks and repros, these games will eventually leave the hands of their original collectors and begin to trickle into the used games market. So 20 years from now, how will someone new to collecting know whether or not a game like Terranigma or Star Ocean or Secret of Mana 2 or Earthbound Zero is an authentic original game or just another repro, if there's nothing to distinguish it from real game carts?

Finally, I'd like to focus my attention on the Homebrew market. Homebrews are much like vintage unlicensed games in that they are produced without the approval of Nintendo, Sega, Atari, or whomever produced the console. In that regard, homebrews are really the only form of modern reproduction that don't violate anyone's rights. Yet homebrew game makers, more often than not, have chosen to violate trademark laws by including quality seals and ERSB logos when the games are authorized by neither the companies or governing ratings boards to do so.

Yes, repros are obviously violating copyright laws 99% of the time, but many homebrewers are often guilty of trademark dilution by using the company seals and logos on otherwise 100% non-offending games. There was an excellent thread very active a couple years back entitled "repros are illegal" which was a very enlightening thread, but as a homebrew and occasional repro/hack collector, the mis-usage of corporate logos bothers me.

If I had my choice, I would opt for cartridge lables without the offending trademarks on them, but whenever I purchase a homebrew or repro from a supplier, I have little choice but to buy it with the offending labels, and I'm not so anal retentive that I'm going to print out my own custom labels on low-quality printer stock to replace the glossy professionally printed repro labels. I simply feel that official logos, branding, styles, or their look-a-likes should not be used on unofficial merchandice, whether bootleg or homebrew.

Surely others gamers/collectors exist who are bothered at least a little by all the rampant brand dilution...

What are you guys opins on this? Discuss...

[Tanooki]

That's because the NA gestapo refuses to allow discussion of anything that may impact them helping increase the ever higher prices put to games because it could be somehow used or inspiring to someone to make a knockoff.

I really don't care if someone uses it, but I can see also why someone may get upset by it. The reason back in the day it wasn't done was that it was then in direct competition for market share with a living console and had someone at Tengen or AVE, etc tried that they would have been sued into the stone age by the NOA lawyer shark pit. Today with the systems dead and them having enough to worry about with their larger problems they wouldn't bother wasting time on someone making pretty labels with their past seal of quality on it. Many repro(bootleg) makers don't put them on there, or they do put their own logo too or write annoyingly reproduction through the label so it's not I'd think all that wide spread and it would be the hobby level creator or small beans project side guy that would do such a thing. Personally I'd rather have a game that fakes looking right than some tacky logo from a nobody who makes illegal games like a sore thumb on the sticker. I've created a few SNES labels in the past that are dead ringers for originals, one of my early ones I have here on a SNES-US version cart of that SDF Macross game and it's a gem.

[Tupin]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it. People are actually putting ESRB ratings and the actual Seal of Quality on their games?

[sfchakan]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it.

I'd love retarded shit like this in place of the official seal. Maybe a logo for the Repromaker themselves that isn't jarring, but noticeable?

[Leo_A]

Unless they're reproducing something that actually exists and is valuable, in effect producing a counterfeit with the likely aim of ripping some unsuspecting person off, I have no issue with a homebrew manufacturer aiming for authenticity with something like a homebrew, translation, prototype, etc.

[dra600n]

Your thread on NA is still there...

Tanooki, you're just pissed at NA because they refused to deal with your nonsense anymore and aren't welcome back. Like DP, NA has some valuable resources, and your unwarranted bashing is quite tiresome.

Anyway, the esrb rating doesn't mean a whole lot these days, especially when most places I've seen don't card young look people when buying AO or M rated games, and it's an aesthetic thing. Some people also use it to give an idea of the target audience for a homebrew, and repros (translated games, not rom hacks) most likely had a seal of quality and esrb rating anyway, so it's not really a huge concern, especially if the original piece had both.

Of all the things to be concerned about with repros and pirates, I would think this would be the absolute last thing to be concerned with lol

[xelement5x]

I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.



It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.

[Tanooki]

Piko Interactive has boxes much the same but oddly not consistent. One of them does have the ESRB rating and things, but the games there are not even homebrew they're licensed product from the developer so it's a differing situation there too. https://www.pikointeractive.com/stor...=0&sort=normal

[kai123]

I would think flash carts would have killed most of the market for repros by now.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.



It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.

Did they figure out what the original SNES logo font was? I've been trying to figure that out for ages.

[stardust4ever]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it. People are actually putting ESRB ratings and the actual Seal of Quality on their games?

Here's one from a Piko homebrew. Honestly he's trying to go legit getting licenses for unreleased games as well as legit homebrews, so I'm surprized he would use it.


Also I think parody labels are fine, but at least half the time, especially with repros, it's an exact duplicate.

Piko Interactive has boxes much the same but oddly not consistent. One of them does have the ESRB rating and things, but the games there are not even homebrew they're licensed product from the developer so it's a differing situation there too. https://www.pikointeractive.com/stor...=0&sort=normal

Yeah here's another I missed.

In the case of Mr Bloopey, it was an unreleased game from back in the day. I don't know if the ESRB had rated it at one point or not but if so the KA rating fits the time period.

Honestly I don't know if Piko is actually getting his games rated or not, probably not as the fees would cost more than a small operation such as himself can afford. I guess there's nothing preventing a homebrewer from submitting an application. Creepy Bird still should not have the Nintendo Seal of Quality printed on the box.

Also if you're a fan of Donkey Kong, I would definitely pick up Classic Kong. Nintendo issued a C&D last year forcing AtariAge to take down Princess Rescue (Super Mario 2600) from the AA store because it "copied" Music and sprites from Super Mario Bros series, despite all the names were changed. I think there's a possibility Nintendo could strike again. Going after homebrewers just seems wrong with so many bootleggers out there.

No offense to anyone making repros; I love you guys...

Your thread on NA is still there...

No, I linked to the Google cache, showing 3 posts. It will probably be gone too after a week or so...

Anyway, the esrb rating doesn't mean a whole lot these days, especially when most places I've seen don't card young look people when buying AO or M rated games, and it's an aesthetic thing. Some people also use it to give an idea of the target audience for a homebrew, and repros (translated games, not rom hacks) most likely had a seal of quality and esrb rating anyway, so it's not really a huge concern, especially if the original piece had both.

You know as well as I do people can make unofficial logos or disclaimers for that that serve the same purpose. My Fix It Felix Sr. cart (which you made for me; thank you) has a completely non-infringing "General Audiences" logo on it. I also think the "unofficial" Sega seal you used is cool too. Maybe it could be made a bit more different from the original art but it's fine either way as it's not an exact copy.

I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.



It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.

That's a great-looking boxart. It would blend itn well with original games but doesn't use anyone else's property in the artwork.

[dra600n]

No, I linked to the Google cache, showing 3 posts. It will probably be gone too after a week or so...

You know as well as I do people can make unofficial logos or disclaimers for that that serve the same purpose. My Fix It Felix Sr. cart (which you made for me; thank you) has a completely non-infringing "General Audiences" logo on it. I also think the "unofficial" Sega seal you used is cool too. Maybe it could be made a bit more different from the original art but it's fine either way as it's not an exact copy.

I'm confused, which thread? I thought you were talking about this same thread you started on NA? If that's not the one you're referring to, then my apologies (I'm assuming that's the case as you also posted in the other one a little while ago as well :P)

And yea, people can, why they don't? Probably want to keep it uniform with the rest of the stuff is my guess. The Felix example is ironic :P

[stardust4ever]

I'm confused, which thread? I thought you were talking about this same thread you started on NA? If that's not the one you're referring to, then my apologies (I'm assuming that's the case as you also posted in the other one a little while ago as well :P)

And yea, people can, why they don't? Probably want to keep it uniform with the rest of the stuff is my guess. The Felix example is ironic :P

Someone moved it. Apparently unlike every other forum, topic links get broken when their moved around.

[Pikointeractive]

Whats up!

We don't use the ESRP Logo on actual printed boxes, only on mock up ones.

When the games are printed all Nintendo Logos and the like have to be taken off.

The mock ups are not for sale so we can use them.

[dra600n]

Someone moved it. Apparently unlike every other forum, topic links get broken when their moved around.

It's all good buddy thanks for clearing that up

[ProjectCamaro]

I think it'd be cool to make a home brew version of the seal and to use that.

[Rickstilwell1]

If it's a repro of a Japanese game translated into English or just converted to the 72 pin cart type on NES it kind of makes sense to use the Nintendo seal since they allowed the game to be officially published in Japan. If it's an original work it is kind of dumb because then Nintendo had nothing to do with its release and didn't approve the quality. Codemasters/Camerica and Tengen had a couple nice games each but as awesome as they were they couldn't just slap Nintendo's seal on there and get away with it. On the other hand, Sega would put their Genesis seal of quality on Tengen's stuff because they gave them permission for stuff like that awesome Ms. Pac-Man port.

Actually that would be really funny to see people take unlicensed NES games out of their odd shaped carts and put them in a regular NES cart with a reprinted label that actually has an end label, just so the carts fit more smoothly when stacked. Just use a game that has its label totally missing or torn up. You wouldn't even have to damage the original cart's plastic and could return the board to it anytime. Have you ever seen anyone do that before?

[Tanooki]

I think you're right, I don't see an issue with the seal, but the idea I think with the Japanese stuff is that some people could make the claim that someone will put the seal on there and make a perfect label and then try and pass it off as a legit 'rare' cart using the usual scummy tactics you see on ebay to do it for high dollar values. Personally with certain things I get fairly perfectionist/obsessive about it so if I were having a 'fake' cart I'd want it to look as retail as possible so it fits in and doesn't stick out regardless of the region. I just am beyond caring and getting upset about it because they're just old dead games and any way you wrap it up the shit is equally illegal warez anyway if the game came out here, in the PAL area (like Parodius NES) or from Japan. It's up to the buyer to know if someone is a fake or not whatever the object is, and beyond that if they care it's a solidly copied copy or a pos and what they value it at.

I love your idea there Rick. Take some ghetto release like a Color Dreams game and make a Nintendo quality copy of the label that'll fit into a repurposed (or hopefully) new copy mold shell and shove it in there. I know they're a little different so it would have to be machined or dremeled to fit potentially, but it would be pretty cool. I never liked seeing those stick out games on my shelf that don't match from Tengen but I like them so they stay. If I still felt buying old NES games was reasonable I'd love at some rate to get a set of those, at least loose, preferred with the manual (at least I have Tetris out of the way.)

[sfchakan]

I think it's pretty dirty and disingenuous to just say "lol buyer beware" with that shit.

Putting out a repro that looks 100% legit to people who don't know any better is just promoting shady behavior in the future.

[Tanooki]

And I make no illusions that I have no issue with it. People need to be aware of what they're buying and if they just are the type to blindly click or pick something up on a shelf without asking questions that's their gamble to handle. Good people shouldn't buy bad goods they don't want, but equally just as right good people who want something that looks right to them should have access to it. Collecting or whatever it may be far from that should be not other peoples business to meddle in someone elses affairs because goods aren't collective, communist like ideals shouldn't be enforced on people as a punishment due to a few dicks that will take advantage of others.