Classic Games on 4K TV

[dgdgagdae]

Thanks to a lightning strike, my 7 year old rear projection CRT HDTV is toast. I loved that thing. It was HD, and there was no lag on A/V or RF inputs. It also had S-Video inputs.

The TV I replaced it with is a Samsung 4K TV. There is no S-Video input, which is a shame. On the A/V input, there is just a bit of lag. It's enough to make the older systems really unplayable. I haven't noticed lag yet on the RF input - is that normal? To have lag on A/V but not on RF?

Anyway, I'm looking for an affordable solution to eliminate this problem. I saw a video recently where Mike Matei recommended something called a Framemeister. It looks like they make a couple of different models, and they are way expensive.

I don't think it matters that it's a 4K, and not a 1080p set. But I don't know enough to say for sure, so that's why I named the thread as I did.

Any suggestions?

[Greg2600]

Inexpensively you'd have to probably go for an HDMI upscaler.

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
This guy reviews tons of them.

[Guntz]

The affordable solution is to buy a better TV. Pick up a nice 27" SD CRT made after 2000, that should last you a long time. 27" is a good size because it's not too heavy to carry alone and it's not so big that classic games become overly blocky looking.

[Gameguy]

The affordable solution is to buy a better TV.

I assume by "buy" you mean pick up a SD CRT for free as everyone is giving them away or throwing them out now.

[Tanooki]

No I'd think you hit up displaylag.com and find a model that falls under 30ms as a max, in the 25ms and under into the teens would be best. Upscalers add input lag that'll screw with old games because it has to take that added frame or two to convert the signal and process it at a level the tv will deal with it. A good tv will have this already inside and have a low response time too, even lower with a game mode. I had to do that research a year ago last March when my good TV got cracked and what I have now plays old games great.

[dgdgagdae]

Displaylag.com doesn't list my series. According to this link, my set has input lag of 26.1 ms. I'll monkey around with the settings more and see what I can do.

http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/lcd-led/samsung/ju7100

Picking up a CRT isn't an option right now, as much as I'd like one. I simply have no place to set it up.

Can anyone definitively pipe in on HDMI upscalers? Do they reduce or increase lag?

[Guntz]

You probably do have enough room for a CRT. American houses haven't gotten smaller over the years last I checked. They're well worth what little additional space they take up.

If anything, I'd say today's flatscreens take up a lot more space than CRTs before. The vast majority of new flatscreen buyers I see always buy giant sets, which doesn't really equal out the savings in TV thickness/depth.

[dgdgagdae]

You probably do have enough room for a CRT. American houses haven't gotten smaller over the years last I checked. They're well worth what little additional space they take up.

If anything, I'd say today's flatscreens take up a lot more space than CRTs before. The vast majority of new flatscreen buyers I see always buy giant sets, which doesn't really equal out the savings in TV thickness/depth.

I believe I have a better idea of the layout of my house than you do. But let me rephrase: I don't have space for a CRT and the 60" LED TV that I purchased. Because retro gaming isn't the only thing I do on the TV, getting something modern was a priority. I'm just looking for a way to make retro gaming better on it, knowing it'll never be as ideal as a CRT for that application.

[Guntz]

Let me rephrase: There is no affordable solution for laggy classic games on modern HDTVs, much less 4K TVs. It's like trying to use video the size of a postage stamp on a movie theater screen. Modern TVs are not designed to upscale SD content. Any capability of upscaling low res video is there just as backwards compatibility, like why some HDTVs still have RF connectors.

You have three main options:

Real hardware + upscaler hardware (expensive, no emulation bullshit)
Emulation (cheap, buggy and never problem free)
Buy a better TV (cheap, just requires extra room)

If you attempt to cheap out on upscaling hardware, it'll only lead to heartache.

Actually, there is one other lesser known option. Plasma HDTV. Out of all HDTVs, Plasmas are the only ones that consistently offer great picture quality and latency with standard definition content. Only problem is Plasmas are hard to find (probably obsolete now) and use a bit more electricity than other HDTV types.

[TheBenenator]

If you're lucky, the lightning might've only blown a fuse inside your TV. If so, fixing it is mostly a matter of finding an equivalent fuse, opening up the TV, and carefully replacing it. Otherwise, you could look on Craigslist for a really, really small CRT TV or RGB monitor (and cables for the consoles). The 14" screens and smaller might need you to sit closer to them, sure, but they generally take up about as much space as a microwave oven.

In any case, definitely invest in some high-quality surge protectors! Not a "power strip" or whatever, and not a no-name surge protector that doesn't even give Joule ratings. Anandtech has a thread on it here: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2303769 You don't want your new TV, Neo Geo, or whatever getting fried and leaving you out a couple hundred bucks -- or worse, your modem.

[Tanooki]

I think your best choice given I can only guess what old systems you're using probably are the most main stream would be to get a Retron 5 or get a new TV that's like mine at 25ms base for the lag (less under game mode.) If money is less of an issue and size Sony had a few tvs out when I got mine, problem was they were new and small (like 20") and cost twice the price but they had some added processor which basically nuked the ms lag issue down into the single digits or very low teens. I just ignored it as it was like $500 for that, or $250 for what I got that is 29" and still very low ms lag and it works. The only time I've had to use game mode is with very sensitive stuff like Gradius 4/5(when I had it) and Guitaroo Man on PS2 when I had that, and other super sensitive twitchy stuff like Punchout which seems to be the go-to for blaming lag.

[Gameguy]

Any capability of upscaling low res video is there just as backwards compatibility, like why some HDTVs still have RF connectors.

If it doesn't have an RF connection then it's not a TV, it's really just a big monitor. It would still need a TV tuner to be a TV.

[Rickstilwell1]

On your Samsung TV remote, go to Menu then go down to Settings > General. If it is anything like my girlfriend's Samsung 3D Smart TV, It should have "Game Mode" as an option. Set it to "On" instead of "Off"

[TheRedEye]

No I'd think you hit up displaylag.com and find a model that falls under 30ms as a max, in the 25ms and under into the teens would be best. Upscalers add input lag that'll screw with old games because it has to take that added frame or two to convert the signal and process it at a level the tv will deal with it. A good tv will have this already inside and have a low response time too, even lower with a game mode. I had to do that research a year ago last March when my good TV got cracked and what I have now plays old games great.

Upscalers add input lag, but not as much as your TV does when it upscales a 240p signal. A Framemeister would almost certainly reduce your input lag even further.

[Guntz]

If it doesn't have an RF connection then it's not a TV, it's really just a big monitor. It would still need a TV tuner to be a TV.

You know that and I know that, but they're still called "HDTVs", even if they lack an RF input.

[BlastProcessing402]

Can anyone definitively pipe in on HDMI upscalers? Do they reduce or increase lag?

I got a cheap S-Video/Composite to HDMI upscaler and while I can't say what it was like lag wise (I rarely notice lag, to the point where I don't even bother turning on Game mode on my Samsung anymore), the picture quality left a lot to be desired.

I got it mainly for hooking up S-video to my HDTV, but it just doesn't do a satisfying job. I'm just going to add an S-video capable CRT to my gaming area when I get around to it (already have 2 such TV's, just have to get around to deciding which to actually use and moving it in).

Like I said, this was a cheap upscaler, I'm sure all that RGB, Framemeister, whatever stuff would be a lot better, but it would also cost at least ten times as much, and I don't have that sort of money to throw around on it. You get what you pay for, don't bother with the cheap stuff.