Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

[lendelin]

I started my order process the second it went on sale and got put into one of those online "waiting lines". I don't know how people do it.

Professional ebay scalpers find a way. The entire salesmodel is centerd about rarity hype and ebay scalping.

As of last week, Jotun (a game which is even not yet shipped according to complaints) sold on ebay already 17 times for an average price of $62,53. This is 150% over retail price. Limited Run games are a paradise for ebay scalpers.

Ebay scalping is bad enough, but Limited Run is an active part of it. From the start when the company was founded, Limited Run itself hyped the rarity of their releases ("the rare PS4 games of the future") AND factored in ebay scalping to sell their stock; and now they even use ebay scalping as a threat to sell their games.

How this salesmodel is a service to us gamers and collectors is still a mystery to me. Other companies which sell digital games on disc do very well, as a matter of fact it is a growing niche market in the last two to three years. The Limited Run-way is the good old money-grabbing greed, it isn't the altruistic way of preserving digital games on discs for posterity.

[YoshiM]

Wooo! Lendelin is runnin' hot. Heh heh heh.

While I don't really collect anymore, just looking at the whole situation reminds me of the old-time hucksters standing on their soapbox to sell their snake oil or "rare items procured from deep within the Orient." It nips at that greed factor of that triggers the "gotta have it" mentality we are seeing a lot more these days. The fear of not getting the item at a good price fuels that desire. It's their mission:

"At Limited Run Games our releases truly are limited. Once a game sells out, it will never be available from us again! We believe that as collectors and consumers you should be able to trust when we say our games are limited. They are!"

However, this comes across as a double standard with the following, taken from the site's own "about" page, below the quote I pasted:

"Our goal is to serve gamers and collectors by bringing physicality back to games. Please support us in this goal and try to collect the entire Limited Run Collection!"

So how is this forced limitation serving gamers? If it gets gobbled up in minutes with some of those copies being flipped to eBay, all that serves are the "entrepeneurs".

I'm not sure how transparent LRG is in regards as to why the releases are so limited. Is it because they are only licensed to make a very small run or are they choosing to make a small run? If it's the former, then I can see the hype train as yes, these games truly will be limited. No BS. If the latter, it just smacks of some predatory salesmanship to line some pockets and create artificial scarcity all around.

If they have a "collector's" and "standard" version, why not make the collector's a true limited run? The extra cost of the added bonusrs add up and historically would be more acceptable as limited. Then have preorders for the standards with an amount limit, so if a particular run didn't get enough people to order, that run doesn't get made. Will people be put out with that, sure. The difference is there is a better opportunity to get one, they know that a certain amount needs to be ordered for it to be worthwhile for LRG to make the games and if it doesn't happen, then blame those that didn't buy. A bit more goodwill would be had methinks.

[Aussie2B]

So how is this forced limitation serving gamers?

Depends on who you ask. I think we've all seen how petty some game collectors can be. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone get angry when a rare and/or valuable game they own gets reprinted and is suddenly less rare and valuable, especially if they paid the inflated price to get their copy. I've been seeing that since the days of, say, Final Fantasy Tactics and Xenogears getting reprints. So for those who strongly care about the rarity factor, the limits put them at ease.

For a more roundabout way that it serves gamers, most of these are games with pretty low demand. The rarity factor draws collectors who wouldn't buy otherwise, allowing for bigger runs to sell through, allowing for the runs to be profitable enough to exist in the first place.

Is it because they are only licensed to make a very small run or are they choosing to make a small run?

A little of both. LRG has definitely shown to be excessively cautious as times, afraid of sitting on unsold stock. If a developer wanted a huge run that LRG had no confidence in selling through, I'm sure they'd never agree to it, partially because LRG shoulders the majority of the risk. Developers get 70% of the profits, and LRG pays them upfront. Then LRG has to sell through their stock to earn that money back plus their 30%. But it's the developer who makes the final call on print run size. I'm sure LRG makes recommendations, especially to those new to LRG, and LRG has convinced some developers to increase the print run sizes a little bit over what they originally requested, when LRG felt they were underestimating demand. Unfortunately, a widespread misconception is that LRG fully calls the shots on print run sizes.

Then have preorders for the standards with an amount limit, so if a particular run didn't get enough people to order, that run doesn't get made. Will people be put out with that, sure. The difference is there is a better opportunity to get one, they know that a certain amount needs to be ordered for it to be worthwhile for LRG to make the games and if it doesn't happen, then blame those that didn't buy. A bit more goodwill would be had methinks.

It'd be nice, but unfortunately, that historically hasn't worked well for games like these. What you propose is exactly what Gaijinworks has done multiple times over, and they've barely hit their minimums or failed to. Minimums that are often lower than LRG print runs. In the case of Class of Heroes 2G, which failed to meet their minimum, they still ultimately produced physical copies, but only because they increased the price point. And when all is said and done with games sold in that manner, you have fewer copies in existence than LRG runs and higher prices on the secondhand market as a result. We also have Fangamer selling in that manner (though without the minimums), but they'll only touch the biggest of the big of indies (Shovel Knight, Undertale, etc.), which still end up selling less than many LRG releases. So it boils down to: we can get more games released physically with a less-than-ideal model, or we can get a lot fewer games released physically under more convenient models. Everybody is entitled to whichever they prefer, but me, I'll always be in favor of more games getting physical releases and those physical releases getting as many copies produced as possible, even if it takes a seemingly counterintuitive system to make that happen.

[lendelin]

Wooo! Lendelin is runnin' hot. Heh heh heh.

While I don't really collect anymore, just looking at the whole situation reminds me of the old-time hucksters standing on their soapbox to sell their snake oil or "rare items procured from deep within the Orient." It nips at that greed factor of that triggers the "gotta have it" mentality we are seeing a lot more these days. The fear of not getting the item at a good price fuels that desire. It's their mission:

"At Limited Run Games our releases truly are limited. Once a game sells out, it will never be available from us again! We believe that as collectors and consumers you should be able to trust when we say our games are limited. They are!"

However, this comes across as a double standard with the following, taken from the site's own "about" page, below the quote I pasted:

"Our goal is to serve gamers and collectors by bringing physicality back to games. Please support us in this goal and try to collect the entire Limited Run Collection!"

So how is this forced limitation serving gamers? If it gets gobbled up in minutes with some of those copies being flipped to eBay, all that serves are the "entrepeneurs".

I'm not sure how transparent LRG is in regards as to why the releases are so limited. Is it because they are only licensed to make a very small run or are they choosing to make a small run? If it's the former, then I can see the hype train as yes, these games truly will be limited. No BS. If the latter, it just smacks of some predatory salesmanship to line some pockets and create artificial scarcity all around.

If they have a "collector's" and "standard" version, why not make the collector's a true limited run? The extra cost of the added bonusrs add up and historically would be more acceptable as limited. Then have preorders for the standards with an amount limit, so if a particular run didn't get enough people to order, that run doesn't get made. Will people be put out with that, sure. The difference is there is a better opportunity to get one, they know that a certain amount needs to be ordered for it to be worthwhile for LRG to make the games and if it doesn't happen, then blame those that didn't buy. A bit more goodwill would be had methinks.

Hi Yoshi, old friend!! Yep, when I think of Limited Run, I'm running hot indeed.

Nah, what really bothers me is the hyppocrisy of these two slick owners. I read about 5 interviews with them, they know exactly what they are doing, and then they state always that it is only about preserving digital games on physical disc. They act like museum directors. When asked about their salesmodel (which happened only once with critical journalists and youtubers nowadays) they immediately stress it is about preserving digital games and that they still have their Ducktales.

It irks me that these guys build up such a great rep while other companies do great jobs in producing digital games on physical disc and sell it in a honest and decent way.

[lendelin]

Wooo! Lendelin is runnin' hot. Heh heh heh.

While I don't really collect anymore, just looking at the whole situation reminds me of the old-time hucksters standing on their soapbox to sell their snake oil or "rare items procured from deep within the Orient." It nips at that greed factor of that triggers the "gotta have it" mentality we are seeing a lot more these days. The fear of not getting the item at a good price fuels that desire. It's their mission:

"At Limited Run Games our releases truly are limited. Once a game sells out, it will never be available from us again! We believe that as collectors and consumers you should be able to trust when we say our games are limited. They are!"

However, this comes across as a double standard with the following, taken from the site's own "about" page, below the quote I pasted:

"Our goal is to serve gamers and collectors by bringing physicality back to games. Please support us in this goal and try to collect the entire Limited Run Collection!"

So how is this forced limitation serving gamers? If it gets gobbled up in minutes with some of those copies being flipped to eBay, all that serves are the "entrepeneurs".

I'm not sure how transparent LRG is in regards as to why the releases are so limited. Is it because they are only licensed to make a very small run or are they choosing to make a small run? If it's the former, then I can see the hype train as yes, these games truly will be limited. No BS. If the latter, it just smacks of some predatory salesmanship to line some pockets and create artificial scarcity all around.

If they have a "collector's" and "standard" version, why not make the collector's a true limited run? The extra cost of the added bonusrs add up and historically would be more acceptable as limited. Then have preorders for the standards with an amount limit, so if a particular run didn't get enough people to order, that run doesn't get made. Will people be put out with that, sure. The difference is there is a better opportunity to get one, they know that a certain amount needs to be ordered for it to be worthwhile for LRG to make the games and if it doesn't happen, then blame those that didn't buy. A bit more goodwill would be had methinks.

You are not collecting anymore? Just not in the mood anymore or what happened? Btw, I am also way beyond that I want as many games as possible, but I still spend a lot of money for games.

You are absolutely right about Limited Run in every aspect. They justify their salesmodel with the dumbest of reasoning. When I heard by some justifications of the salesmodel I thought it was the nonsensical defense-wall of a fanbase sounding like the PR-department of LR; but then I just recently learned that it WAS actually the babble of LR just repeated by a fanbase.

Here is an example of the statements of Limited Run itself in their twitter account about the release of Nighttrap. Some had the audacity to question their salesmodel:

https://twitter.com/limitedrungames/...946881?lang=de

Why the limited production numbers?
Answer LR: "Simply put, if a game is overprinted it will sink us or our partners due to the extremely high cost of printing physical inventory." and "we will print an amount that will safely sell without risking our livelihood."

This was repeated again and again in this thread. In short, they have to do it otherwise they would face bankruptcy, and this way they ensure that we get physical games on disc. The same reasoning was used to answer your Q.

Someone should just ask them how other small publishers with normal distribution models which print digital games by small developers on physical disc manage to survive? They are not only surviving, they are doing very well, publishing more and more games (over 200 in the last three years). They and Limited Run are in a growing niche market. It is not a struggle anymore against an overall powerful digital god; on the contrary, Soedesco, Badland Games, Maximum Games, THQ Nordic and many other companies prove that it is possible to sell these kind of games and make a profit. Still, the nonsensical PR-babble by LR is repeated again and again.

Why is that? Because LR convinced a lot of gamers that LIMITED RUN does not stand for limited production numbers but for 'preserving digital games on disc'. They ingeniously sold their salesmodel in a euphemistic way by putting the bad program (the limited run) in the name and associated it with something good; and it was accepted because gamers wanted desperately great digital games on disc. I was among them, but I never bought the part about the limited production numbers. Everyone including their fanbase and LR itself knew what will happen, what kind of a salesmodel this is: Rarity hype based on limited production associated and re-enforced by ebay scalping.

Creating artificial scarcity? Answer LR: "Are you aware that we don't lock up rights to games? The developers and publishers we've worked with have full rights to reprint more."

Nonsense. This is a niche market, once a indie-game is published, in particular with the artificial demand created by LR, it is over. It only happened in the case of one game, a game that was tailored to the Asian market and published by an Asian company. One game of the over sixty games published by LR got reprinted, that's not a coincidence. The fanbase will now respond that if not for LR we wouldn't get these games. Also nonsense. The game is over with one print for these kind of smaller games, not that other publsiher aren't interested in getting these games. I am also sure that Limited Run would not reprint Inside/Limbo and Axiom Verge after they lost the publishing rights (thank godness) to other companies, even if they could. The market won't accept a second print run.

To answer your Q about who sets the print run numbers? Don't listen to the PR-babble by the fanbase, they are repeating again Limited Run itself. LR stated again and again that the DEVELOPERS set the numbers. Are they kidding? The guys who don't take the risk about the final sales decide for LR the production numbers? LR takes the financial responsibility about sales and let someone else dictate to them how many they will print?

Ridiculous and completely nonsense. Another example to which extent a faithful fanbase can get bamboozled.

The bottom line is that a terrible salesmodel is defended by an adamant fanbase. Small openings of sales windows as a result of intended rarity hype and limited production numbers, artificially deflated supply and artificially inflated demand with the result of limited availability and terrible ebay prices are justified by nonsense and belittlements of the consequences. Ebay prices are not so bad (yes, they are); ebay prices will come down (not for high-in demand games); LR can't do anything about ebay scalping (yes they could, AND they intentionally used ebay scalping to sell their games); the 5 minute sales windows aren't a problem nowadays in the age of smartphones (yes, they are!); sometimes certain games are up for hours, sometimes even an entire day! (really? incredible!); other small publishers face bankruptcy or get government subsidies or are not profit-oriented (this was seriously said!); and my personal favorite: I should put my money were my mouth is and found my own publishing company in order to prove that my criticism is valid! Wonderful.

The nonsense runs high. But the following by Limited Run Games itself will be an evergreen of nonsense! How do they justify their limited print salesmodel? (it's in the twitter link above)

Limited Run: "Atari crashed the game industry by overprinting games. There isn't infinite demand for this stuff."

I leave it like that without a comment because it is just too stupid. I'm just glad that no-one on this site had the chuzpe to repeat this statement which borders idiocy. Can you imagine to compare the industry and economics of 1983 to the situation of the game industry today? If Limited Run would have printed 5000 more copies of Wonderboy and 2000 of them would have sold not immediately but in the next couple of months, in this case I'm not so sure it might have triggered in the long run another videogame crash. And if so, it would have happened some time ago, because lots of smaller publishers take the risk of overprinting, imagine that, Limited Run!

The last statement shows, however, how very safe the LR-guys feel with their fanbase, not even nonsensical stuff hurt their reputation and puts a dent in the adamant following fanbase.

[Bojay1997]

Ridiculous and completely nonsense. Another example to which extent a faithful fanbase can get bamboozled.

And you just can't let it go. You have now posted how many times today? Do you not have a job or anything else productive to do with your life other than to keep posting the same nonsense over and over again? Here's the thing, nobody that buys LRG games is under any delusion about what their model is or isn't. Nobody is being tricked or outsmarted or swindled. We all get it. Their model is the same as Mondo or Ubisoft Store or NIS or Square-Enix Store or Iam8Bit or any company that sells limited edition products and makes it clear that they won't be doing reprints and that once something is sold out, it's gone. They all move product by offering something people want and reinforcing the need to buy it now with the overt or subtle threat that once something is sold out, it's not coming back in stock. It's literally a basic and longstanding business model that applies to every collector's edition, limited edition or any other product that is produced for collectors in limited quantities whether its games, comics, statues, posters, vinyl box sets or whatever. You act as though seeking to preserve digital games on disc is somehow not compatible with limited editions or making a profit. In the real world, everything isn't always black and white. Sometimes, a business or a person can have many facets and motivations and competing interests and yet they can grow and thrive.

Everything that you are posting has been discussed repeatedly on the LRG forums, Twitter, Facebook and countless other forums including this one. LRG has been very open about their belief that games need to sell out immediately and that Ebay scalpers are part of their customer base. They also believe they don't have the working capital or logistical ability to get stuck with excess copies of a game if they overprint something. It literally doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, it's their company and a number of developers support their model and the public is very receptive to it. At the end of the day, you don't like their model and you think there are better models out there being pursued by other companies. Fine. It literally doesn't matter. You're one guy with too much time on his hands who feels that businesses owe him something and that he should have the right to buy games months or years after release at a discount and if it costs the business money or they can't afford to pay the developers or their employees on time as a result, it's not your problem. You're literally the crappy customer that no business would want or need. As such, your opinion carries no weight. You don't understand how business works, you don't care about the people whose lives may be impacted by your desire for a race to the bottom on pricing and your entire belief about an alternate model is based on anecdotal evidence from companies whose finances you have not one iota of information about and whose business model is keyed towards an entirely different market.

It's literally the height of arrogance and stupidity on your part to keep repeating the same myth that somehow if LRG didn't exist, all these other companies would rush in and release these ultra niche games. Honestly, LRG has kicked off a whole slew of new competition and ultimately, Soedesco and the others who entered the market prior to LRG will either compete and win or collapse as the market gets saturated with these releases. Frankly, consumers have plenty of choices and we should be celebrating that LRG is not only an option, but more importantly, not the only option in town.

[YoshiM]

You are not collecting anymore? Just not in the mood anymore or what happened? Btw, I am also way beyond that I want as many games as possible, but I still spend a lot of money for games.

Well, I got a divorce (on good terms, so nothing vindictive or anything) and got remarried so my family grew to 10 step children on top of my daughter from the first marriage and now I've got a 1 1/2 year old son with my new wife. Life is good but time and space are more limited. I've culled my collection to a few systems that the kids play and that works for me. My wife's house has had an anti tech field that killed some of my stuff (like my Retron 5) so I think that was a hint to adjust the hobby.

[lendelin]

Well, I got a divorce (on good terms, so nothing vindictive or anything) and got remarried so my family grew to 10 step children on top of my daughter from the first marriage and now I've got a 1 1/2 year old son with my new wife. Life is good but time and space are more limited. I've culled my collection to a few systems that the kids play and that works for me. My wife's house has had an anti tech field that killed some of my stuff (like my Retron 5) so I think that was a hint to adjust the hobby.

Sorry to hear about the divorce, and congrats about your new marriage! I'm glad that all works out for you very well, good to hear! Wow, such a big family, and a new son! You must be very proud, Dan, and with such a big family it is very understandable that collecting and gaming isn't so much important to you now. You are absolutely right, there are much more important things in life than games and collecting, although I miss guys like you on this board with whom it was possible to have intelligent and very rational discussions way beyond an election-campaign level.

I read your post about the Retro-Gaming mag, yeah, write something again! I still think that your section about the N64 in the DP Collectors guide is the best section of the book. The comments about the games are very well done. I haven't written about games since my last contribution in the DP fanzine, since then I wrote only boring articles in Political Science, that means a lot in Comparative Politics. But what are explanations about party systems compared to explanations about the difficulties of the Dreamcast and N64? Almost nothing!

Great to hear from you, Dan! Enjoy family life!