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Thread: Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi_Matrix View Post
    what did you order that you don't want?
    Probably LawBreakers.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    The Bunker. My brother ordered one and now decided he doesn't want it since I got one too.
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    Jesus christ. Half the internet is truly retarded.

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    An article about Night Trap's release mis-attributed a foul quote to LRG. LRG is sending out tweets denouncing it lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porksta View Post
    An article about Night Trap's release mis-attributed a foul quote to LRG. LRG is sending out tweets denouncing it lol.
    Do you have a reference/link to the article?

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    Happy Console Gamer, a youtube channel I watch sometimes, has a video about Limited RUn up. A bit naive, if you ask me, but nevertheless interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFF_K5gDYEc

    Game Sack, another gaming channel which I watch at times, wrote the following comment to the above video:


    My take: Limited Run promotes the concept of digital-only games more than physical copies without even realizing it. It's much easier to get a digital game. What good are physical copies if buying them is so stressful? Why should people have to go into panic mode to buy a friggin' video game? Of course this isn't all Limited Run's fault. Much of the blame lies on the people who actually do buy them. One person in this comment section somewhere said that if they did pre-orders "no one would buy them except people who actually open and play them, most people just like putting them on their shelves and posting pics of the boxes on social media". This is what it has become. It's no longer about gaming. Now it's only about collecting. The games themselves don't actually matter. It's just about the having. And those people won't buy a game if they feel like everyone else can have it. That's why pre-orders fail with LimitedRun games but they DON'T fail with other publishers. The collector mentality gets worse and worse. Also, from what I heard they did increase production of Night Trap. I haven't been to their site so I don't know what the numbers are but I know for a fact that they were definitely thinking about producing more than the normal allotment at some point. However Limited Run has told me personally that they do like the fervor and sense of urgency surrounding their releases. Bottom line: It's a shitty market, not much anyone can really do about it and the only thing that guarantees you a game any more is buying it digitally. Limited Run is for collectors only. Not gamers. This sucks, but it's the world we live in now.


    I agree with all of the above except that this is not only partially LR's fault but ebay scalping and rarity hype are fully LR's fault because they are intended from the beginning as I explained in my posts. They are the intended aspects of their salesmodel, ebay scalping was from the beginning factored in.

    Well taken is the point by Game Sack that the salesmethod of LR is counterproductive for physical games and promotes in the end digital games. But the two LR-guys won't care about that, I'm sure, as long as they are busy filling their bank accounts. Always remember: they are facing bankruptcy and endanger their livelihood if not for this very very special salesmodel. Other small publishers which do the same as LR but sell their games in a regular way are expanding, hiring and publishing more games than ever for the same niche market. Maybe the two LR-guys should ask the two owners of Soedesco how to run properly a profitable company without relying on a slick salesmethod disadvantegous for gamers and collectors?

    Also remember the quote by GameSack: "However Limited Run has told me personally that they do like the fervor and sense of urgency surrounding their releases." Yep, they certainly do, I wonder why. Hmm...beats me, I can't think about one reason.
    Last edited by lendelin; 08-16-2017 at 12:35 AM.

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    This topic...

    Has anyone considered that Limited Run is inadvertantly helping a lot of these other small publishers by raising the profile of smaller indie releases?

    For about two decades now, smaller publishers have tried porting niche games, often of higher quality than what many of these new publishers do, and failed miserably. Companies like A1 and XS tried bringing over PS1 budget and niche titles and couldn't make it work. Whether a lack of advertising budget, poor understanding of localization, or being too late in a console's lifespan, publishers have brought out high-end arcade ports, butchered budget games, and other niche games like Top Shop, Sol Divide, Starfighter Sanvein, Gekioh/Shienryu, WarTech, etc. to general failure.

    Limited Run, support them or not, have people paying closer attention to indie releases. Were people lined up to preorder games like Cleopatra's Fortune or Qix Neo when they were getting quiet US releases? Nah. But LR has people looking closer at digital services and earmarking the physical stuff they want even better than other publishers have been able to do with bigger budget Japanese releases in their day. People, being made to be more conscious of small print runs and future releases, are far more in tune with what's happening, and that benefits companies like Soedesco and FanGamer, who not only gain visibility by being in the same business, but get to play the good guy role.

    What I'm getting at is that what Limited Run has done has been important for raising awareness and viability for smaller physical releases in an age where it looks like Sony and Microsoft are dying to go all digital. You don't have to like them or support them to appreciate that we are all more aware of physical releases of smaller games in part due to their presence in the marketplace.

    Plus, Game Sack's reviews are half-assed, and it's clear that they play the bare minimum of most games to get their two minute blurb and footage together in most cases. Great production values, likable guys, but you only have to watch the show or listen to when they've hosted panels to see that they know surprisingly little , often sourcing Wikipedia for content. I like Happy Console Gamer better, although I know they're buddies, as he typically just talks about games through the lens of his own experience instead of as an authority... but that's all off topic. Then again, so is most of this thread, which was intended to be informative instead of a constant editorial piece, but I suppose I've contributed to the shitstorm as well.

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    Doug did a great panel at MO Game Con this past weekend. The audio is pretty poor due to technical issues with the camera and sound gear, but a couple of interesting things came out. They are looking at doing a hybrid model release for Ys where they will still have the CE and standard edition on a Friday release day and then a 24 hour preorder window for an unlimited version with different cover art. They are also likely to have to submit to ESRB going forward as there are several small game shops that sell their games and that is the potential delay for games in the coming months as ESRB can require a rating change if there is DLC or other content on the disc that doesn't comply with the earlier digital rating of the game.

    https://youtu.be/-GPpQvlg9n0

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    This topic...

    Has anyone considered that Limited Run is inadvertantly helping a lot of these other small publishers by raising the profile of smaller indie releases?

    For about two decades now, smaller publishers have tried porting niche games, often of higher quality than what many of these new publishers do, and failed miserably. Companies like A1 and XS tried bringing over PS1 budget and niche titles and couldn't make it work. Whether a lack of advertising budget, poor understanding of localization, or being too late in a console's lifespan, publishers have brought out high-end arcade ports, butchered budget games, and other niche games like Top Shop, Sol Divide, Starfighter Sanvein, Gekioh/Shienryu, WarTech, etc. to general failure.

    Limited Run, support them or not, have people paying closer attention to indie releases. Were people lined up to preorder games like Cleopatra's Fortune or Qix Neo when they were getting quiet US releases? Nah. But LR has people looking closer at digital services and earmarking the physical stuff they want even better than other publishers have been able to do with bigger budget Japanese releases in their day. People, being made to be more conscious of small print runs and future releases, are far more in tune with what's happening, and that benefits companies like Soedesco and FanGamer, who not only gain visibility by being in the same business, but get to play the good guy role.

    What I'm getting at is that what Limited Run has done has been important for raising awareness and viability for smaller physical releases in an age where it looks like Sony and Microsoft are dying to go all digital. You don't have to like them or support them to appreciate that we are all more aware of physical releases of smaller games in part due to their presence in the marketplace.

    Plus, Game Sack's reviews are half-assed, and it's clear that they play the bare minimum of most games to get their two minute blurb and footage together in most cases. Great production values, likable guys, but you only have to watch the show or listen to when they've hosted panels to see that they know surprisingly little , often sourcing Wikipedia for content. I like Happy Console Gamer better, although I know they're buddies, as he typically just talks about games through the lens of his own experience instead of as an authority... but that's all off topic. Then again, so is most of this thread, which was intended to be informative instead of a constant editorial piece, but I suppose I've contributed to the shitstorm as well.
    I agree that LRG has greatly boosted the market for physical releases of niche titles. A flood of competitors have entered the market which is good for consumers and frankly, many of us who buy LRG games also buy other niche titles by the other publishers on a regular basis. I also agree with your point that many companies have tried the retail niche approach and failed. I think we are nearing that point again with companies like Rising Star having not released a game in a very long time and THQ Nordic and 505 barely squeezing out a game every 4-5 months and delaying games that have been on the schedule for many more months. Even Soedesco seems to have been hit with delays for whatever reason as their games which I preordered on Amazon keep getting pushed back a month at a time. Personally I don't think the retail model is viable for niche titles as there just isn't enough margin there or volume to make it worthwhile, but for now I'm happy to have more options and a great library of physical niche games from all of the publishers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    Plus, Game Sack's reviews are half-assed, and it's clear that they play the bare minimum of most games to get their two minute blurb and footage together in most cases. Great production values, likable guys, but you only have to watch the show or listen to when they've hosted panels to see that they know surprisingly little , often sourcing Wikipedia for content. I like Happy Console Gamer better, although I know they're buddies, as he typically just talks about games through the lens of his own experience instead of as an authority... but that's all off topic. Then again, so is most of this thread, which was intended to be informative instead of a constant editorial piece, but I suppose I've contributed to the shitstorm as well.
    I hear you on Game Sack. They're like a running joke among my family and friends. Though not remotely clever (which I suppose is appropriate given the target), I call them "Game Suck". They know jack all about anything they're talking about, and they have the vocabulary of 3rd graders, which is all the more astounding when they clearly prepare scripts in advance and have the time to come up with something at least remotely interesting to say. But instead it's all "this is really nice", "this is cool", "I liked this", "this is great". Just an utter lack of substance, and the repetitiveness literally makes my head hurt after a while. My favorite is the rare occasions where they actually acknowledge a game's music to say it's good but then proceed to not play a second of it. If they could actually, you know, describe the music genre or name the composer or something, then we'd have something to work with, but you can't get more worthless than to simply say the music is good and then not let us hear even a snippet. I'm convinced the only reason they have so many viewers is because people like to turn their brains off and just watch video footage from a bunch of different games. Their whining about LRG has never been well-argued either. They're not much better than the loser who recently sent LRG a support ticket threatening to make a negative video about them if they didn't send him a free copy of Night Trap. The whole "us" versus "them" mentality in gaming is just petty and childish, whether it's "casual" versus "hardcore", or "gamer" versus "collector", or whatever else. Who cares if someone buys a game to play it, collect it, or even to keep it sealed? Regardless of what the person does with their own copy, it doesn't make it any easier or harder for anyone else to buy a copy. That copy has been sold, period. I've bought, opened, and played every single Vita release from LRG, but I guess that doesn't align with whatever dumb narrative Game Sack is pushing.

    Anyway, I'm digressing too now. But I do want to say that I appreciate your posts. You've made a lot of good points, from an unbiased perspective. You don't view LRG as some sort of cartoonishly evil corporation destroying gaming, and since you're not buying from them, nobody can assume that you're some sort of blind LRG fanboy either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    They are looking at doing a hybrid model release for Ys where they will still have the CE and standard edition on a Friday release day and then a 24 hour preorder window for an unlimited version with different cover art.
    Ugh, they need to chill with the cover variants. This sounds good for people who just want a copy period, but it'll do nothing to alleviate the madness to get the CE and standard edition. A cover variant just means a lot of people will try to buy during both sales models, to get one of every variant. Cover variants and CEs are fun as options now and then, but with the frequency of them, it just feels like squeezing collectors for extra money, to get them to double or even triple dip on the same game. I mean, does something like Lili really warrant a CE? Especially when said CE barely includes anything extra over the standard version yet still costs $15 more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Ugh, they need to chill with the cover variants. This sounds good for people who just want a copy period, but it'll do nothing to alleviate the madness to get the CE and standard edition. A cover variant just means a lot of people will try to buy during both sales models, to get one of every variant. Cover variants and CEs are fun as options now and then, but with the frequency of them, it just feels like squeezing collectors for extra money, to get them to double or even triple dip on the same game. I mean, does something like Lili really warrant a CE? Especially when said CE barely includes anything extra over the standard version yet still costs $15 more.
    I agree with you on the variants getting out of control. I would hardly consider myself a completionist collector, but the variants are just confusing things and stretching already thin stock when collectors who "have to have them all" grab the maximum of each. I also agree on the CEs and LEs. I thought the Night Trap one was neat (of course I also backed the failed Kickstarter, so I am definitely the fan base for that game), but I'm not sure that Wonder Boy really needed one and Lili seems too niche to justify two different SKUs. Ys will be an interesting experiment in that if the preorder window is successful, bigger games may start to go back to a preorder model just like the PC games are currently done which should bring the level of angry rhetoric down a few notches on forums and Twitter.

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    FYI
    Vblank Entertainment has a physical Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition for the PS4.

    https://vblank-entertainment.myshopify.com/

    That was a game I've always wanted and never played.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    This topic...

    Has anyone considered that Limited Run is inadvertantly helping a lot of these other small publishers by raising the profile of smaller indie releases?

    For about two decades now, smaller publishers have tried porting niche games, often of higher quality than what many of these new publishers do, and failed miserably. Companies like A1 and XS tried bringing over PS1 budget and niche titles and couldn't make it work. Whether a lack of advertising budget, poor understanding of localization, or being too late in a console's lifespan, publishers have brought out high-end arcade ports, butchered budget games, and other niche games like Top Shop, Sol Divide, Starfighter Sanvein, Gekioh/Shienryu, WarTech, etc. to general failure.

    Limited Run, support them or not, have people paying closer attention to indie releases. Were people lined up to preorder games like Cleopatra's Fortune or Qix Neo when they were getting quiet US releases? Nah. But LR has people looking closer at digital services and earmarking the physical stuff they want even better than other publishers have been able to do with bigger budget Japanese releases in their day. People, being made to be more conscious of small print runs and future releases, are far more in tune with what's happening, and that benefits companies like Soedesco and FanGamer, who not only gain visibility by being in the same business, but get to play the good guy role.

    What I'm getting at is that what Limited Run has done has been important for raising awareness and viability for smaller physical releases in an age where it looks like Sony and Microsoft are dying to go all digital. You don't have to like them or support them to appreciate that we are all more aware of physical releases of smaller games in part due to their presence in the marketplace.

    Plus, Game Sack's reviews are half-assed, and it's clear that they play the bare minimum of most games to get their two minute blurb and footage together in most cases. Great production values, likable guys, but you only have to watch the show or listen to when they've hosted panels to see that they know surprisingly little , often sourcing Wikipedia for content. I like Happy Console Gamer better, although I know they're buddies, as he typically just talks about games through the lens of his own experience instead of as an authority... but that's all off topic. Then again, so is most of this thread, which was intended to be informative instead of a constant editorial piece, but I suppose I've contributed to the shitstorm as well.
    Your Q about a postive effect of LR-publicity on the sales of other indie games by other small publishers could only be answered if you had a really good (and I mean a really good!) market analysis. If there is one out there, we won't see it.

    My answer (which is just an assumption) is: in all likelihood not, and if there is one it is marginal. However, even if there is a slight positive effect on the sales of other indie titles through the publicity LR gets, overall the success of LR hurts other small publishers more than benefits them. Additionally, it's not the merit of LR that finally niche games became a successful niche market, nor can it be credited to other small publishers. It was the restructering of distribution and opportunities by digital services which made indie-games successful and profitable.

    The reasons: The success of smaller indie-games started before LR got founded. It was a demand by a lot of gamers (including me!) to get great games from XboxLive and the PSNetwork on disc. (I pleaded already during the PS2 times to get more 2D-games like Gradius V, Contra Shattered Soldier, R-Type Final and others) The success of Limbo and other great games, but in particular the success of the two Rayman games showed that 2D isn't dead, that 'retro-gaming' became more popular not only when it comes to increasing prices for older games, but also with older generations of gamers and with a younger generation of gamers! (very important! I noticed that 'old' games became more popular and enyoyed a renaisssance when a 20 year old student told me in 2002 that he plays Joust with his friends.)

    There was a big demand of gamers to get these great digital-only games and retro-2D-games on physical disc, Limited Run jumped on the running train. Gianna Sisters, e.g, developed by Black Forest Games, was published by Soedesco on physical disc 6 months before(!) Limited Run was founded. The two owners gave months before LR entered the market interviews in which they stated that great digital-only games should be on physical discs. It was the success of these games on XboxLive and PSNetwork which showed publishers that these kind of games are certainly only a niche market, but nevertheless might be a profitable one looking at the sales numbers. The easy access for smaller developers to digital services produced an unprecedented variety and number of indie-games and successful games; additionally, the digital distribution functioned as a test market. All of the above wasn't there during the PS1-and PS2 -times and therefore it was way more difficult for publishers to get a foothold in the market with niche-games. LR has neither to do with past obstacles nor with new opportunities.

    It was the digital services which sparked the success of indie-games and the founding of smaller publishers which produced these indie games on physical media. It wasn't LR, no pioneer-credit there, other companies were first, but even they are NOT the reason for the success of smaller games. (Additionally, the publicity of LR was modest when they were founded) The restructering and opportunities of digital distribution is the primary reason. The smaller publishers, no matter when they were founded, were a RE-action to these structural changes, they didn't act. Another reason (an important Q) might point to the flaws of modern game design. Modern games with all these incredible production costs lost a bit of their playfulness and childlike innocence, also just outright bonkersness we still had during the GC-times and PS2-times, and I think there was finally an awareness that a 2D game can give you something (simplicity, overview, playfulness and challenge) which 3D games cannot or were de-emphasized considering the high production costs.

    Is the publicity of LR-games today positive for the sales of the other small publishers? Hard to say, all of them are successful, all of them are expanding, hiring and producing more games than ever in the last three years (also THQ Nordic, don't believe babble); I suspect(!), however, that the success of LR cuts severely into the business of the other small publishers. The salesmodel of LR gives consumers the choice to get the games NOW for retail or take the risk of paying much more later on ebay. (also marketed as such by LR itself, also factually true looking at ebay prices) I can take my time for Ziggurat or Lumo, in all likelihood they decrease in price if I wait as a consumer. Since almost everyone has a limited budget (exceptions even on this board confirm the rule) , in all likelihood LR gets the money first from a lot of potential customers of other small publishers. In this niche market, with the same relatively small target audience, with very similar niche-games, and very similar organizational structures of the companies, there is little doubt in my mind that LR cuts into the business of the others.

    This would be ok, after all it is a free market and capitalist competition. The only thing I critisize is the fact that this competitive advantage of LR is based on a salesmodel which in every aspect has disadvantages for consumers, namely us, the gamers and collectors while the other small publishers sell their games consumer-friendly. They give us time to decide, they give us sales-windows whenever it is convenient for us, and we don't have to deal with ebay scalpers if we want games 1 hour after they were released and not even shipped. LRs success comes at the cost of us gamers and collectors UNLESS a ends-justifies-the-means-approach is taken. However, the ends (the games) justifies the means (the terrible salesmodel) would have some merit if we couldn't get these games other than by LR. For the PS4 this is just not the case. This is is true for Vita games, however. But even in the case of Vita games the salesmodel is questionable for obvious reasons. In particular for Vita games a normal salesmodel by LR would make even more sense than for the PS4 because Vita games by LR enjoy as a rule a higher demand than LR-PS4 games, and the competition is almost zero for LR. No need to go the rarity-hype-ebay scalper-route with marketed limited production numbers there.
    Last edited by lendelin; 08-18-2017 at 12:18 AM.

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    Less than 10 minutes till the first batch of Lili and N++ go up for sale. I'm guessing this will be the most relaxed of this month's Fridays as far as buying LRG releases goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie2B View Post
    Less than 10 minutes till the first batch of Lili and N++ go up for sale. I'm guessing this will be the most relaxed of this month's Fridays as far as buying LRG releases goes.
    I'm surprised Lilli CE sold out that quickly, especially with the limit being dropped to one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojay1997 View Post
    I'm surprised Lilli CE sold out that quickly, especially with the limit being dropped to one.
    I actually counted...around a minute to a minute and a half. Was it faster than Wonderboy and NIght Trap? Im glad I was able to get a copy, but WOW that was fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by portnoyd View Post
    Jesus christ. Half the internet is truly retarded.

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    90 seconds again? Great, then LR achieved it's goal, that's exactly what they want, well, maybe up to ten minutes, to be fair; but don't worry if you didn't get a game, they are very responsive to criticism and are working on the problem now for two years;

    but N++ is still available after 41 (!!) minutes. Awful. LR completely failed in this "difficult balancing act" between print-run and anticipated demand. If this game doesn't sell out in the next 15 minutes they might end up with "overstock" of 100 games and this might "sink the ship and their developers."

    I hope they won't go bankrupt, the smallest bump in the road could mean that they are suddenly out of business. Let's pray that a bundle Lili/N++ will be available for the second batch, this might just avoid bankruptcy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    Your Q about a postive effect of LR-publicity on the sales of other indie games by other small publishers could only be answered if you had a really good (and I mean a really good!) market analysis. If there is one out there, we won't see it.

    My answer (which is just an assumption) is: in all likelihood not, and if there is one it is marginal. However, even if there is a slight positive effect on the sales of other indie titles through the publicity LR gets, overall the success of LR hurts other small publishers more than benefits them. Additionally, it's not the merit of LR that finally niche games became a successful niche market, nor can it be credited to other small publishers. It was the restructering of distribution and opportunities by digital services which made indie-games successful and profitable.

    The reasons: The success of smaller indie-games started before LR got founded. It was a demand by a lot of gamers (including me!) to get great games from XboxLive and the PSNetwork on disc. (I pleaded already during the PS2 times to get more 2D-games like Gradius V, Contra Shattered Soldier, R-Type Final and others) The success of Limbo and other great games, but in particular the success of the two Rayman games showed that 2D isn't dead, that 'retro-gaming' became more popular not only when it comes to increasing prices for older games, but also with older generations of gamers and with a younger generation of gamers! (very important! I noticed that 'old' games became more popular and enyoyed a renaisssance when a 20 year old student told me in 2002 that he plays Joust with his friends.)

    There was a big demand of gamers to get these great digital-only games and retro-2D-games on physical disc, Limited Run jumped on the running train. Gianna Sisters, e.g, developed by Black Forest Games, was published by Soedesco on physical disc 6 months before(!) Limited Run was founded. The two owners gave months before LR entered the market interviews in which they stated that great digital-only games should be on physical discs. It was the success of these games on XboxLive and PSNetwork which showed publishers that these kind of games are certainly only a niche market, but nevertheless might be a profitable one looking at the sales numbers. The easy access for smaller developers to digital services produced an unprecedented variety and number of indie-games and successful games; additionally, the digital distribution functioned as a test market. All of the above wasn't there during the PS1-and PS2 -times and therefore it was way more difficult for publishers to get a foothold in the market with niche-games. LR has neither to do with past obstacles nor with new opportunities.

    It was the digital services which sparked the success of indie-games and the founding of smaller publishers which produced these indie games on physical media. It wasn't LR, no pioneer-credit there, other companies were first, but even they are NOT the reason for the success of smaller games. (Additionally, the publicity of LR was modest when they were founded) The restructering and opportunities of digital distribution is the primary reason. The smaller publishers, no matter when they were founded, were a RE-action to these structural changes, they didn't act. Another reason (an important Q) might point to the flaws of modern game design. Modern games with all these incredible production costs lost a bit of their playfulness and childlike innocence, also just outright bonkersness we still had during the GC-times and PS2-times, and I think there was finally an awareness that a 2D game can give you something (simplicity, overview, playfulness and challenge) which 3D games cannot or were de-emphasized considering the high production costs.

    Is the publicity of LR-games today positive for the sales of the other small publishers? Hard to say, all of them are successful, all of them are expanding, hiring and producing more games than ever in the last three years (also THQ Nordic, don't believe babble); I suspect(!), however, that the success of LR cuts severely into the business of the other small publishers. The salesmodel of LR gives consumers the choice to get the games NOW for retail or take the risk of paying much more later on ebay. (also marketed as such by LR itself, also factually true looking at ebay prices) I can take my time for Ziggurat or Lumo, in all likelihood they decrease in price if I wait as a consumer. Since almost everyone has a limited budget (exceptions even on this board confirm the rule) , in all likelihood LR gets the money first from a lot of potential customers of other small publishers. In this niche market, with the same relatively small target audience, with very similar niche-games, and very similar organizational structures of the companies, there is little doubt in my mind that LR cuts into the business of the others.

    This would be ok, after all it is a free market and capitalist competition. The only thing I critisize is the fact that this competitive advantage of LR is based on a salesmodel which in every aspect has disadvantages for consumers, namely us, the gamers and collectors while the other small publishers sell their games consumer-friendly. They give us time to decide, they give us sales-windows whenever it is convenient for us, and we don't have to deal with ebay scalpers if we want games 1 hour after they were released and not even shipped. LRs success comes at the cost of us gamers and collectors UNLESS a ends-justifies-the-means-approach is taken. However, the ends (the games) justifies the means (the terrible salesmodel) would have some merit if we couldn't get these games other than by LR. For the PS4 this is just not the case. This is is true for Vita games, however. But even in the case of Vita games the salesmodel is questionable for obvious reasons. In particular for Vita games a normal salesmodel by LR would make even more sense than for the PS4 because Vita games by LR enjoy as a rule a higher demand than LR-PS4 games, and the competition is almost zero for LR. No need to go the rarity-hype-ebay scalper-route with marketed limited production numbers there.
    The success of indie titles on download services certainly helped popularize those styles of games, but that was never what I was getting at to begin with. The point was that consumers are more aware of the physical release publishing schedules for those kinds of games. Schedule awareness, not indie game awareness.

    Schedule awareness is the benefit that can (and likely does) extend to other publishers. Even here, nobody was talking about Soedesco at all until it was brought up under the LRG discussion umbrella. It's the publishers that really have a stake here, after all. The developers are making the vast majority of their money through digital sales still, not through these physical releases. Sure, they still benefit, but LRG, Soedesco, Fangamer, whatever... they're all just finding a way to make some money off the top, which isn't an enormous margin for 5000 copies of a game. They aren't making millions per game here. They are making thousands.

    This means that sell through and release awareness are vital, because the money at stake here is far less than one might think. So, are people learning about, say, Saturday Morning RPG because of LRG? Nope. However, fans who want physical copies, seeing them sell, are now watching to see if their favorite indie game will get picked up for a physical release, because LRG has helped make people confident that it will happen, whether it's them, Soedesco, or SuperJim'sAwesomeGamesDoneFancy. This is the shared benefit I was talking about.
    Last edited by celerystalker; 08-18-2017 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lendelin View Post
    90 seconds again? Great, then LR achieved it's goal, that's exactly what they want, well, maybe up to ten minutes, to be fair; but don't worry if you didn't get a game, they are very responsive to criticism and are working on the problem now for two years;

    but N++ is still available after 41 (!!) minutes. Awful. LR completely failed in this "difficult balancing act" between print-run and anticipated demand. If this game doesn't sell out in the next 15 minutes they might end up with "overstock" of 100 games and this might "sink the ship and their developers."

    I hope they won't go bankrupt, the smallest bump in the road could mean that they are suddenly out of business. Let's pray that a bundle Lili/N++ will be available for the second batch, this might just avoid bankruptcy.
    Give it a rest Professor Blowhard, the adults are talking and you aren't adding anything to the discourse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celerystalker View Post
    The success of indie titles on download services certainly helped popularize those styles of games, but that was never what I was getting at to begin with. The point was that consumers are more aware of the physical release publishing schedules for those kinds of games. Schedule awareness, not indie game awareness.

    Schedule awareness is the benefit that can (and likely does) extend to other publishers. Even here, nobody was talking about Soedesco at all until it was brought up under the LRG discussion umbrella. It's the publishers that really have a stake here, after all. The developers are making the vast majority of their money through digital sales still, not through these physical releases. Sure, they still benefit, but LRG, Soedesco, Fangamer, whatever... they're all just finding a way to make some money off the top, which isn't an enormous margin for 5000 copies of a game. They aren't making millions per game here. They are making thousands.

    This means that sell through and release awareness are vital, because the money at stake here is far less than one might think. So, are people learning about, say, Saturday Morning RPG because of LRG? Nope. However, fans who want physical copies, seeing them sell, are now watching to see if their favorite indie game will get picked up for a physical release, because LRG has helped make people confident that it will happen, whether it's them, Soedesco, or SuperJim'sAwesomeGamesDoneFancy. This is the shared benefit I was talking about.
    Exactly this. Frankly, there's a reason companies like Fangamer and Iam8Bit sell merchandise and all sorts of other items. There isn't a ton of money to be made in this space in general and I suspect if you really dove into the financials for companies like Soedesco, you'd find that they are generating a small amount of revenue and they probably keep their costs ultra low by minimizing overhead, advertising, staffing, etc...The niche market is expanding and the fact that Guacamelee is selling quickly within a day of LRG doing a two game release that also seems to be selling very quickly (well Lilli did anyway) is a good sign that the market is healthy and vibrant.

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