Courts Rule That Nintendo Has the Right to Refuse Cancellations of Pre-orders

[Nz17]

Well that's not good news... courts in several nations have ruled that Nintendo doesn't have to allow the cancelling of pre-orders and can keep all of the money even if someone wants to cancel the order before the game is released.

Let that be a lesson to everyone: only pre-order from places that will give you a full refund if ever you want to cancel, and if you want to retain your maximal legal rights, always order tangible copies of software that you can use offline for as long as you want instead of buying (read: indefinitely leasing) purely digital products that you have no control over whatsoever.

Talk about anti-consumer!

Source: https://mynintendonews.com/2020/01/2...order-refunds/

[Gameguy]

Seems kind of fair. If they use preorders to determine how many copies to manufacture, then it's a bit bad when someone changes their mind and takes their money back. If you aren't sure about buying a game then don't preorder it in advance.

I don't buy digital only copies of games so I'm already ahead of the game.

[Nz17]

Somewhere else someone commented about this story with how superior - in almost all ways - digital-only games are to physical ones. Curiously he was a part of a group for game collectors so I really don't see the logic there. In response, I posted the following:

Nintendo is charging about $60 per digital game for most of its games on the Wii U eShop. I bought most of my physical Wii U games for fewer than $20 each (Mario 3D World, New Mario U, Pokkén Tournament, Splatoon, etc.), sometimes much fewer than $20, such as $1 in the case of Star Fox Guard.

I enjoy underpaying to get a physical copy and only have to insert it once as I just leave it in the drive and keep playing it across sessions until I'm done. Afterward I don't mind the short trip of a few feet from the console to where the games are stored. These games don't require the authentication of anyone except myself.

If I choose to resell my valuable games, I can buy, sell, or trade them with whomever I please for real money. Sometimes it might not be much cash, but at least it is still real money.

[Aussie2B]

The problem with arguments about digital vs. physical is that there's no objectively superior option. They both have their pros and cons, so it's fair to prefer either, but a lot of people think their preference translates to objective superiority.

[YoshiM]

Well, on regards to cancelling, why not charge a cancellation fee instead? There are many reasons why someone would cancel, not that the buyer has to justify. However, to remain pro consumer, just slap a fee on. The buyer gets some cash and so does Nintendo.

In the case of digital only, as we all know, the publisher/developer has the right to change the game at any time. GTA games have been known to lose songs due to licenses running out. So not only are you leasing the games, but what you have today and what you have years from now could be totally different. Granted it could be a Yacht Club Games approach and you get more games than what you started with for free (Shovel Knight with all its expansions), but that's probably an exception.

The more I see how my digital device's and game software can change on a whim, introducing things I don't like, the more I go back to the classics.

[Gameguy]

Well, on regards to cancelling, why not charge a cancellation fee instead? There are many reasons why someone would cancel, not that the buyer has to justify. However, to remain pro consumer, just slap a fee on. The buyer gets some cash and so does Nintendo.

If they started charging a cancellation fee I'm sure it would either be equal to or greater than the preorder cost.

I'm surprised people could cancel preorders and get full refunds. I assumed they were like non-refundable deposits. Usually if you put a deposit on something and back out, you lose your deposit. I've personally never preordered as I want to wait for reviews before I consider buying a game. With so many people preordering companies are basically getting free loans, I don't get why consumers are so ok with this when they're getting so little in return.

[gbpxl]

there used to be a need to pre-order games. some highly anticipated games were expected to be out of stock and you might be waiting a while before they get more in. or the pre order came with a bonus disc.

these days it seems like they make more than enough copies to the point where pre ordering is a waste of money

[Ryudo]

I've seen Sony do this as well

[ScourDX]

This is why I still support Physical copy. Cut out of crap and you can cancel it anytime. Also once people support digital download for convenience, company can slowly impose their draconian scheme on their user. So folks support physical and ditch digital in protest.

[Nz17]

One reason people would pre-order digital or physical games from certain places is that those places would offer a discount on pre-ordered items. It was something like 10% or 20% as a discount from Amazon, Best Buy, and GameStop, though with GameStop you had to have an active subscription to their Power-Up Rewards Premium (which was one level above "Pro"). As far as I am aware, all three places stopped offering this one after the other.

[mailman187666]

Give me a physical and fully playable game any day of the week. The only time I ever pre-order anything these days is from LRG, because I really have no choice. I used to pre-order stuff sometimes back in previous generations or if it comes with a DLC or something, but I really don't see where it matters. Pre-ordering digitally, I don't understand at all unless sometimes I see they give discounts or you get to pre-install so you don't have to wait till it's officially released to start your download.

[E Nice]

Seems kind of fair. If they use preorders to determine how many copies to manufacture, then it's a bit bad when someone changes their mind and takes their money back. If you aren't sure about buying a game then don't preorder it in advance.

I don't buy digital only copies of games so I'm already ahead of the game.

What if the company alters the game while it is in preorder status, such as what happened with Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore on the Switch? The game was promoted with images that people expected from the game, only to find out later that the game was censored and the images no longer reflected what the game would be like.

[Gameguy]

What if the company alters the game while it is in preorder status, such as what happened with Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore on the Switch? The game was promoted with images that people expected from the game, only to find out later that the game was censored and the images no longer reflected what the game would be like.

I've already touched on this a bit earlier in this thread.

I've personally never preordered as I want to wait for reviews before I consider buying a game.

A game isn't finished until it's released and available for sale, there's always a chance it will be changed right up until it's sold to the public. Digital download games can be patched and changed later too to alter content which is why I still like physical copies that don't require an online connection. I would wait until a game is released to know exactly what I'll be getting. Look at Mighty No 9 as the finished product looked far different than the earlier work in progress. I group kickstarters and preorders together as they're basically the same thing, you're asked to pay for a game in advance before it's completed.


I'll admit, some preorder bonuses look really cool and I do feel bad for missing some. One is the bonus watch that came with 999 for the DS, though I seem to remember it only being available to the US so I couldn't really get it anyway. Usually preorder bonus stuff can be found or purchased later for a reasonable price so passing on a preorder isn't that big of a deal, I personally don't mind waiting a few years after a release so the prices tend to drop significantly too.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

This is why I still support Physical copy. Cut out of crap and you can cancel it anytime. Also once people support digital download for convenience, company can slowly impose their draconian scheme on their user. So folks support physical and ditch digital in protest.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Digital games get pulled left and right. How long before they start pulling existing digitally downloaded copies of games because of licensing issues, etc? Last April and May, I bought two copies of Deadpool; one for the Xbox 360 for my best friend, one for myself for the Xbone (he doesn't have an Xbone, and didn't have a PS4 at the time). Anyway, I relished in it. Deadpool was pulled from digital markets on November 16, 2017 due to licensing issues. It felt great knowing that the companies couldn't do shit about me buying used copies.

Buying video games used to be, and still is sometimes, like this: Go to the game store. Pick out a game. Pay for the game at the register. Bring the game home. If the game ran into some legal crap or a license expired, it could be pulled off the market.

If we lived in an all-download world, game makers would be free to make a game unavailable forever. Imagine this with cars:

The Chevy Camaro IROC-Z was made starting in 1985. On December 31, 1989, their contract with IROC expired and they couldn't make any IROC-Z's after that date. But you could still buy an IROC-Z after 1989 used. If the car industry worked like this all-download model, if you didn't purchase an IROC-Z before December 31, 1989, tough luck, you can only get them new from Chevrolet not from Joe's Used Car Shack. Born after 1973 and like IROC-Z's? Well that's too fucking bad. Or what if, in a more common scenario, they go out of production because they're "obsolete". Happens with cars, and games, all the time. In this "all-download model" world, for instance, you might also not be able to purchase a Lincoln Town Car, because they went out of production and are obsolete. Ford stopped making them in 2011.

Well guess what, in the world we live in I can still buy an IROC-Z or a Town Car. Or any other discontinued car assuming I can find one for sale. And there's a lot of old cars out there.

Used to be, video games were 100% the same. Midway has every right to not make Mortal Kombat copies for the Genesis. It was big in 1993, but the Genesis is obsolete now (to the non-retrogamer) so it wouldn't make economic sense for WB Games (current publisher of the series) to pump out cartridges. But guess what? Many of those cartridges made 26-ish years ago are still around, because it's a fun game and those cartridges are damn near indestructible. The newer games on disc-based media are more fragile but the point still stands. If you take care of them they'll last, and you can still buy and sell them used.

Meet FRG (we'll call him Fergy), Future Retro Gamer. Fergy was born, we'll say, ten years from now (2030). In 2050, Fergy's playing on his PS9 or Apple Pippin 3000 or Tesla CyberConsole or whatever they'll have then, and he gets an interest in "What were video games like when I was born?" He wants to become a retrogamer. Option 1, we stick with physical media or at the very least allow for buying and selling of used games in virtual stores. Fergy finds used copies of the critically acclaimed games of 2030, he's most interested in the games that are, well, interesting, but he also buys the millionth damn Call of Duty game just to experience it and because it's cheap as fuck. Option 2, he can only get games from the late 2040s - 2050 (maybe mid-2040s if he's lucky) - the games he loved as a kid, and the retro games he has his eyes on, are gone forever.

We can't fail Fergy. After all, isn't Fergy just a version of us born, oh I don't know, 30-70 years later (for most of us)? Maybe Fergy will dig up this post in 2050 and read it (well, his or her name probably won't be Fergy, but the idea's the same).

[Aussie2B]

Physical copies of games is only one part of the equation of preserving games. Relying on them 100% is just as risky as relying 100% on publishers to continue selling any particular game digitally. For all we know, a day may come when all disc-based games succumb to bit rot, no matter how well one took care of them. Chips in cartridges can die. I have a big collection of retro games, and while I'd hate to see them stop working, I've had to accept the idea that some day I may have to turn to flash carts and/or emulation to continue enjoying those games. Digital backup of games is critical to keeping retro games in existence, and while it's less than ideal to lose the chance to buy a game legally, digital-only games will continue to exist because the data will be backed up.

[Nz17]

I wonder what video game museums currently do and what they will do in the future about the all-digital games for various platforms and the terrible DRM often found with them.

[YoshiM]

To pull from the "Fergy" comment from WelcomeToTheNextLevel: will that future gamer care about games from their past?

We're at an interesting stage regarding video games and actually, entertainment in general. With Steam, GoG, Epic, Apple app store, Google Play, PSN, XBL, Nintendo eshop and more I'm probably missing- there are thousands of games to consume. And I stress "consume".

Now one can say that people have been doing this for ages but it seems now more than ever people have voracious appetites for entertainment. So many choices that seem to give similar experiences on top of constant updates that change the core game. Will someone actually be nostalgic for "Flappy Bird" twenty years from now? Better yet, will they remember the original "Flappy Bird"? Or "I remember back in the late 00's Minecraft didn't have [insert current option here] and we liked it...wish I could get it as it was".

My thought is, with how fast things go, people in the future may be more interested in their present as there'll be too much stuff to even look to the past. Oh there will be folks that will look back and dabble in that content (like we folks do now), but will that group be more or less prominent?

(Hope this came out right-spaced this out over a night on a phone)

[Aussie2B]

There's definitely something to be said for the availability of content. Would we be as nostalgic for our childhood games if we had more games available to us when we were children? I mean, there were surely exceptions, like children of rich parents who may have bought them more games than they could keep up with, and rentals expanded exposure for some, but I think generally speaking, older gamers had less available to them in their youth than today's young gamers, and having little choice but to replay a game over and over because you had nothing else to play builds a stronger attachment than blowing through a game once and never thinking about it again.

Today, even if you set aside piracy and deep discounts on Steam and what have you, just the sheer volume of free-to-play content is staggering. A child today can easily find a game to play that's new to them even without spending a cent.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

There may be a ton of new content out there, but some will always be curious about or even prefer the older content. A lot of that new content is going to be in the same few genres, whatever's popular at the time. There's no way to know what will be popular in 2050.

It's important to preserve games, both retro and current, both physically AND digitally. I'd be for download digital gaming if there was a way to buy and sell used games, sort of like an eBay of sorts for downloaded games. What I am against is the gaming companies having exclusive control of how all copies can be sold, and the idea that games can become unavailable forever. Big niches come and go. I love the SimCity series, play it to this day, but the last game in the series that wasn't dumbed-down horse shit came out 17 years ago, and yes I still play it. You BUY games, you don't lease them from a company. Once you've bought it, it's yours, and you have the RIGHT to sell it.

By the way, the market needs used games. $60 for a new game is expensive. The companies WANT you to be forced to buy new games that they make their programmers work 79-hour weeks on. Mobile gaming is cheap, but mobile gaming control schemes suck for most types of games. PC, console, and mobile are separate niches. SimCity on console or especially mobile sucks. Jak and Daxter couldn't be done on mobile, maybe on PC.

I say stay away from download on console until a way can be figured out to buy and sell used games online. We can't give the companies more control. Vote with your wallet. Boycott companies who pull shit like what Nintendo did. EA needs to be defunct for what they pulled in the late 2000s with their DRM debacles and broken games.

[Aussie2B]

I think what'll be popular is kind of irrelevant. The free content available has only been expanding more and more in diversity. For every Fortnite there's a Doki Doki Literature Club. Gamers of the future will likely be able to find whatever they could want, no matter how niche.