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Thread: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - beginning of bad trends

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Default Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - beginning of bad trends

    (Note to embittered old Colecovision users: I made sure to avoid inconveniencing any of you by using that beloved acronym in my topic, no matter how many letters it may have saved, even though you may find my statements here are in line with the train of thought possessed by the average fan of products from the Connecticut Leather Company.)

    This topic comes up every now and then at the CV Dungeon Forums now and then: Is SotN really a good game, or isn't it? Despite being a moderator and supposedly knowing a thing or two about the series, I continue to maintain that playing the game isn't worth my time. Why? It's no fun. What's more, I say that this game, along with Final Fantasy VII, helped push game companies further towards trying to be just like Hollywood, instead of focusing on better forms of gameplay. Just like Final Fantasy VII, the radical change in the focus of such a legendary game series is a clear signal that the issues dealt with by the game's designer are typical of those throughout the industry.

    *Insert reminder about the innate subjectivism of opinions here to cover my brash assertions*

    SotN, to an even worse degree than MGS, is victim of a designer that believes that the future of games are to be found with "interactive movies" as an integral part of the game, and furthermore flatters himself to believe he's up to the task (though perhaps one can argue that Hideo Kojima's nonsensical storyline to MGS2 is no worse than most science fiction, and besides lots of people like {and believe in!} The Matrix movies, so I'd better hit the fade button on this point). There's an old saying about the ridiculousness of an XXX flick's director being happy he's working from a ten page script, and I feel that likewise games should stick to being games - not in dispersing valuable assets trying to be what they are not. This is not to utter a truism - games can and should pull it off, and I see ideas like those from the new Lord of the Rings series of games that look for new ways to drop you into the action as being helpful. This doesn't work for all games, however, and when this issue even comes up it's obvious that marketing and design have come up with another uneasy aliance, another bastard product that is duller and less exciting than it should have been. SotN's storyline, from what scraps I've encountered (listened to, seen translated to l337 {Drac: "WTF is a man?"}, and the like) is most emphatically NOT up to the task. The American voice actor Alucard sounds more than a little like Eeyore on the disc's warning audio track. The question here is...why did a straight up action game need a plot? Why does Dracula have to be a misunderstood child? What was wrong about the original theme of horror movie pastiche? These questions have been asked by many fans over the last few years, and I hope that the space of seven years has let the discerning player overcome the "dazzle unless target saves" effect of the pretty graphics.

    There is that argument.

    There's more, though, and I think what I wrote a bit earlier @ my other forum holds true, so here I copy more or less verbatim:
    I myself find CotM to be somewhat hard at times, but all the difficulty in the world won't stop gameplay from degrading into bland sessions of scrolling through levels that have a gothic theme. They've got the prettiness down (as far as 2D art goes - I say the way it's put together in most instances is purely awful, what the hell happened to having real staircases?) and the music as well, but the gameplay just isn't there.

    You'd think that in this day and age they'd figure out how to make it a challenge for the reflexes and not simply memorizing stuff, rather like I hear Maximo (Ghosts to Glory/Zin, take your pick) has accomplished. Instead, they shift the emphasis from memorization to level grind/getting the crap kicked out of you when you dare go too far into the game too quickly, inventory management, and even so a hint of memorization persists if you wish to use it (you don't have to, though). AAARGH.

    On with my first comment that deviated from the flow of my comments, about 2D art. SotN's flat-art stuff is good (mostly) and classically inspired, but the folks who assembled it have an aesthetic sense that would make any self-respecting dog (that happens to eat poop every now and then) cringe. We have lots of uninspired ledges and bullshit elevators to ride about on, and the "omg cool factor" wore off the first time I encountered them. I didn't find any room to be particularly interesting the first time I entered them, and I have no real desire to see them again. The same holds true for Circle of the Moon, and while I've logged many hours into that one I'm always looking for a [boss] fight or to doublejump up to an unsuspecting skeleton to send his bones flying before I hit the ground...'cuz that's fun.

    Staircases were cool. In SotN we have a bunch of strange flat rooms with even stranger arbitrary blocks here and there [hanging in midair] for the player to hop about on. One of the most fascinating things about the original Castlevania was that while your character couldn't heave himself up blocks by the arms, he could walk up stairs...WALK...not needing to exert himself unnecessarily in jumping through warehouses in some inglorious cratefest. Hitting medusa heads when you were in the middle of a flight of stairs? Badass. Super CV 4/Rondo made it much easier for us, letting Simon moonwalk and drop off a flight of stairs and letting Richter jump on and off stairs at will, by magic! [No, it's not magic. That's the whole point. It feels like you're actually a part of something big, grand, epic.]

    [bit of a red herring/diversion here]
    The realism introduced by the stairs seems unremarkable now, but at the time it was a selling point. Hey, Mario runs through these crazy looking levels, but Simon Belmont is in a CASTLE, and people understand that world on a level you can't with a Mario game -- while Mario games are lots of fun, Castlevania (as it was supposed to be) puts you in a fantasy setting where the laws of physics still hold sway, and you can't do really crazy stuff all the time. Simon has to be really careful to win his game, and it's a more heroic challenge to undertake (so it appears, anyways). Super CV IV and later games did indeed mess with the formula of realism a bit, but all in the name of better gameplay.

    [back on track]
    Now here's something to consider -- Super CV 4 used sprite rotation on Simon's arms so you could hit things in eight directions. That made the world more interesting with enemies on platforms above and below you. In SotN, what are we back to? Braining undead apes with tapir bones, that's what. I know there's a lot of stuff added with "l337 w1kk1d k3wl m0v3z," magic, and odd/useless subweapons but at the end of the day, neither I or a rat can give a damn (much less an ass) about button sequences. Learning intricate button sequences isn't a part of gaming for me, because it has nothing to do with entertainment or life whatsoever. I don't expect Konami to release a full-body motion sensing suit for use in their games, but using the button press combination approach is lame [using the attack combination approach, though, is great by me - take a look at the combat system in the newest Zelda, nice stuff considering it's much less complicated!]. I also feel the same way about games that add on all sorts of buttons when the main game can be done well enough by four and maybe two shoulder buttons.

    I know some folks like that sort of game, but I really don't see what's so appealing about it. Combos just don't equal entertainment for me...I like games that give you a set of rules and present you with a large number of possible scenarios you have to deal with. I know some will scoff, but that's one of the things I think has kept Counter-Strike alive all these years, and kept it alive for me. A CV game obviously is at a disadvantage in that the other players aren't humans...but with a bit of good programming and a wide variety of moves (as opposed to a wide variety of dumb enemies onscreen) you can solve that and the human tendency to find shortcuts/unfair advantages (infinite combos/"CPS1 chains" and AWP horez) all at once.

    [If the designers were really interested in entertaining us, they'd do something with that bad old RPG system or that silly two-button gameplay mechanic (with Fighting Street combos added on -- in this day and age that represents another ancient and frankly obsolete way of forcing the player to make sacrifices in the name of entertainment, instead of looking for better control devices and schemes), right?]

    That's just how I feel. If you really like the game, hey, I don't want to turn you off from it. I know I can't speak too much about the game's intricate details as I haven't played the whole way through (not even close), but some things about the game (mechanics, design philosophy and the like) won't change.
    At the end of the day, though, how many folks have warm memories of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Lots? Great. How many play Counter-Strike? Tons. It is my hope that there will be more games in the "active thinking/gameplay centered" category in the near future on consoles...and, what's more, it is my personal conviction that as a game, SotN requires little thinking and presents little in the way of gameplay.

    Sorry for such a big mess of a post, and, once again, I don't mean to step on anybody's feet over this nor detract from their enjoyment. If you DO enjoy it, view it as yet another guy trying to make sense of things/life/attain gaming Nirvana, and reply in kind ;)

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    Banana (Level 7) Richter's Avatar
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    I'll take the old_sk00l CV games over the never ones (SotN and up) any day (me love SCV4). I want a platformer with straight up action, non of this level-up, HP/MP nonsense. Cant beat the boss? Level Up. Bored? Level Up? Low on health? Soul Steal.

    whenever i do pop in SotN (or in my case the Saturn NitM) i *always* pick he Richter game. Just me, a whip, sub-weapons w/item crashes and above all A LIFEBAR (getting pummeled to death in the inverted cast is the shit - its all about skill, not your current stats). Soulsteal? nah, i want roasted turkey.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Indeed. I see a "light at the end of the tunnel" as game companies are starting to get smarter about this issue, but strangely the Castlevania series has had a lot of inertia pushing it in the direction SotN set it in seven years ago. Maybe the newest title helps some; can't say for sure. In any case, this silly gameplay model won't last forever ;D

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    Bell (Level 8) sabre2922's Avatar
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    SOTN a bad game? wow damn
    while I do respect your opinion ED that was a very close minded post in MY opinion
    I honestly dont know where to start with this but I do know that you sound very much like a PC purist type gamer meaning that you simply cannot grasp the overall appeal of a brilliant 2-D game like Castlevania: symphony of the night
    Im sure I have a large chance of getting banned for debating with your post since you seem to be a well respected wiseman of this and other forums but I simply cannot stand idly by and let a fellow gamer rip into a legendary game like this
    it is times like this that I truly believe that all hope for console gaming is gone especially when I decided to write a small post criticizing the all mighty SONY and I got flamed to no end for the first time on this board like I was the anti-christ himself
    Anyhoo I have to say that you wrote a very well thought out post to make your point even though I completely disagree

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    wow... I haven't played SotN but I can't even think of CV without level and hp/mp... the only CV NES game I will play is 2. Can't stand the straight-on platformers. ugh...


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    Holy crap. It's been a while.

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    i don't see what the problem is. they took a straightforward action game (a difficult one loved by lots) and turned it into an action/adventure game that i consider a great game. the game is fun, what else do you want?

    complaining because a game has a story? why complain about something having bonuses? and i can recite the entire richter/drac convo too. i like it

    i dunno. i see your point, but i disagree totally. it seems like you want games to be simple action things with no plot or anything. just pop the game in and do whatever. nothing wrong with that, but i think that these "hollywood" games are good too.

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    It's odd... I liked the first NES Castlevania, but I really couldn't stand playing 2 and 3... yet I absolutely love the GBA Castlevanias (Haven't played SotN yet, but the GBA games are similar). Maybe there was something about 2 and 3 that I just couldn't get into, but they just didn't seem fun to me.

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    Default Right, see ... you're a bloody fool my friend n_n

    There are many redeeming qualities to th' game. It's fun runnin' round lookin' for what you need to go further, the gameplay is very easy to get into and pleasantly simple: slash and grab! And how 'bout them enemies, eh? Such beauty and danger, and all captured artfully in an old-school fashion. So what if the gameplay was a little linear and sometimes things got in the way.
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    Bell (Level 8) whoisKeel's Avatar
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    heh. i haven't played this game in awhile, but i don't really remember there being much storyline at all...maybe 3 minutes worth to every hour or two of gameplay...and i can't think of more than 3 or 4 fmvs on the whole disc. on a side note you allude that mgs was a story-driven hollywood type game...but i personnally always remembered the original metal gear being pretty story driven for it's day and age...it very well may be the heaviest story for the nes i ever played (excluding rpgs).

    you also mention sotn is based on it's OMG factor...heh, so did scv4...the multi-directional whip, the mode7 graphics the engine couldn't handle worth a crap, the latch-on and swing routine, the chandeliers. imo, scv4 is actually one of my least favorite castlevanias out of the major ones (if that makes sense)...it is also the easiest castlevania title i've played yet. sotn gets pretty hard once you make it to the inverted caslte.

    but perhaps you just don't like the exploration style the series has taken, that's ok. and yeah, the game may be over-rated, i agree, but you have to remember that when this game came out, 2D platformers were on their way out, so it was exciting to get a game like this.

    btw, have you played castlevania chronicles? that game sweeps up scv4 imo (just don't play remixed mode heh).

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    Hmmm....well, I can't imagine I'll ever change your mind, since your opinions are so strong, but I must say, I have VERY fond memories of SOTN. I listen to the soundtrack all the time. I firmly believe SOTN and FFVII are the 2 best game for the PS1, probably even in that order.

    It really wasn't a radical change. CV2 and 3, and Rondo really led up to it. I'm surprised something like it hadn't happenned sooner.....well, memory constraints, I guess. Those tha don't like Sotn, afai can tell are in a very small minority.

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    wow... I haven't played SotN but I can't even think of CV without level and hp/mp...
    WOW!!!!! That's unbelievable. That means that you have never played a real Castlevania game. You don't know what you're missing. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I can't imagine a CV with level and hp/mp.
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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Well, I'm thankful there haven't been any flames so far :D

    I should also mention that SotN, as far as the story goes, builds somewhat (loosely) off of Rondo, which also had some pretty awful cutscenes (the last one in particular). While in SotN you don't spend a lot of time watching cutscenes, having the timeline and the characters talking amongst themselves had a very big impact on the series.

    As for Super CV IV versus SotN...it's a much more balanced game and that balance does not depend upon the player entering and re-entering the same room repeatedly to find monsters to fight. I agree that Super CV IV has a great deal of slowdown throughout, but the point remains that the Treasure folks thought of a lot of ways to make the gameplay more varied and fun. If subweapons were not already a part of the series you would never see them. What's been added recently? Transformation? Soul stealing? Instead of subweapons we'd get some magic cards...because that's exactly what we DO have these days!

    Juste has a (rather sucky) bouncy-whip like Simon in the aforementioned SNES title, so there's no doubt Igarashi tries to bring in some of the old ideas. The DSS magic cards (that he thought was gimmicky, before he invented the soul system for AoS) weren't a product of his team; that group was more along the lines of the people who did the N64 games (so I assume, since both were KCE Kobe products). I say enough of that stuff! Bring us things that are interesting. The Game Boy Advance format, as I hinted before with my intertia comment, does seem well suited to the newest 2D games in the series, and I am a great fan of Aria of Sorrow.

    Castlevania also has a unique problem which I haven't seen with any other series, that of the timeline. In the old days, it was a takeoff on the old horror movies, but pretty soon (like most everything else Konami did, to their credit) you had the Conan The Barbarian motif cement, and after a brief flirtation with the generic anime style it moved right into all this heavy, overbearing gothic...stuff. You have "CRAAAAZY IGA!" adding (and removing) dates (and games) to (from) the timeline willy-nilly; I don't want to go into all the details, but the series has already had its finale (according to his version of things, anyway) in Aria.

    The timeline doesn't seem like much, but it seems to me that the latest lead spent much of his time obsessing over details on the timeline (and fighting with KCEK) and the internal stories...'cuz I honestly don't see much quality in the game designs. Harmony of Dissonance? I'm very surprised that was EVER on the track to being a PS2 game, as it's horrid throughout (though to be fair resized graphics might have something to do with that). There's some nice tile work early on in that one, but by the time you get to the Luminescent Cavern your eyes are bleeding. That game quite frankly has some of the most alien and bleak level designs I've seen in a game. As I'm a quite hardcore dungeon crawler myself this nastiness didn't deter me one bit, but the eye-bleeding qualities have kept me away for a while now.

    I can't say anything about LoI. It sounds like the sort of game I would really enjoy, and a couple of the music tracks I've heard are the sort of thing I look forward to in a game.

    As for CV Chronicles...I'm not impressed by the makeover given Simon. I own a copy of the Japanese release; it's sealed and will stay that way, especially as I own two copies of the original game (see, these things help when discussing games in the series I don't like - I can always point to the stuff I do follow like a true fanatic).

    Of course there's certainly a good deal of chaff in my first post, and maybe even some outright BS (which I tried quite hard to avoid) but that's for everybody to decide :)

    Another thing to mention - I like the N64 games (certainly the original, which was the first CV I could play at leisure, i.e. had a copy in the house) more than SotN, and the other moderator @ the CVD Forums feels the same way. Maybe that will make the job of constructing some appropriate flames easier - 'cuz you guys are slackin'! Get with it already :P

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    Default SOTN

    For a guy who doesn't like the game, you seem to have an awful lot to say about it. Do you always go this in-depth into games that aren't fun?

    Actually, when I first played SOTN I wasn't that impressed either. But for some reason it kept finding its way into my PSX (probably so I could laugh at the stupid voice acting), and eventually I was hooked. It's easily one of my favorite Playstation games.

    I'm puzzled by the comparisons to MGS. Believe me, I'm no fan of stories in videogames. IMO the story intermissions in SOTN are brief and far between. The "story" takes up half the game in MGS.

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    Nope sorry...to this day I have very found memories of Castlevania SOTN. The control was spot on, great graphics and some surprises. I love all types of games believe me, from the original Atari days to modern PC and console gaming, I loved SOTN.
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    Not sure what ANY of this has to do with colecovision?

    But anyways, Castlevania SOTN is my favorite game of all time, period. So I'm sure I probably can't add anything to this conversation beyond saying that. I didn't ONCE "level up" during the entire course of this game ANY of the times I played through it.
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    never did that like Iga, he's got that "holier than thou" attitude to him. About a year ago on one of the Konami sites was a page on the timeline. The games removed were Legends, the N64 titles, CotM for the simply reason that he didnt want them it

    ...

    ass


    I have no idea were/how oI fits it. I believe it takes places some 300 yrs before Legends

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    sorry Ed

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    Great Puma (Level 12) Sylentwulf's Avatar
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    I've always been confused by people who don't like their videogame to have any sort of story. That's like loving a movie because it has no plot at all and noone talks.

    Just utterly confusing as hell. And picking Castlevania SOTN as your flagship title to bash due to it's story is even more ridiculous since there is probably 3-5 minutes of story in the ENTIRE GAME.

    ESPECIALLY due to the fact that most games let you skip story sequences whenever you want, if you don't like the story, skip it.
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    What's to be confused about? More time spent on plot typically means less time playing. On top of that, most video game storylines are pulp quality. The vast majority of games don't even need a plot, anyway.

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'm getting a good deal of hostility from some of the old-timers. I'm actually surprised.

    @ DNG: That added nothing to my day or this thread, and it wouldn't have taken you much longer to make a decent reply.

    @ Sylentwulf:

    It's not possible to beat the game without leveling up a number of times, because beating a boss automatically levels you up.

    As for the Colecovision bit, think about it. The abbreviations for that system and for the whole Castlevania game series are the same. I was told a while back that "at this forum CV means Colecovision," so I shouldn't put the abbreviation in my topic titles. I'm just poking a bit of fun at whoever said that (I've forgotten). Harmless, I hope, and I have a LOT of respect for that sytem. Again, I'm sorry if that hurt anybody's feelings and I know I really shouldn't have mentioned it.

    As for the story argument...yes, SotN has much less story than other game, but the fact that that silly story was ever put in is a point that concerns me. Now that's saying something -- I like the story in Aria of Sorrow (same producer, same type of game, just better executed. Some of SotN's faults lie with the rather bad localization job, but once again if you read my posts through you'll see that I'm making the broader assertion that the change in the direction for THIS game announces a sea change in the way classic game series (and series in general) are produced.

    On another note...guys, if you want to disagree, that's fine. In making such a big post, I made some errors. Get over it. You can point them out, but using words like "ridiculous" show you have absolutely no respect for the amount of time I put into thinking about this.

    If I was 100% correct on this issue, I'd write an article. I'm not 100% correct here, so I wrote a topic in hopes I'd get some ideas and corrections. Thankfully some people have seen fit to view this as such. As for the rest of you, learn some forum etiquette, please. :(

    Now OldSchoolGamer is on the right track...while his post doesn't really add anything, per se, there's absolutely nothing with letting us know he disagrees with me, and he did it in a wholly respectable fashion.

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    By Hakkenden in forum Buying and Selling
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-07-2004, 04:52 PM
  5. FS: Castlevania Symphony of the Night (GH)
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    Last Post: 04-02-2004, 11:09 PM

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