MAME Trademark in Jeopardy

[Icarus Moonsight]

When I saw some celebrity had a MAME cocktail unit they bought off of ebay on one of them Crib-like shows. I knew this was coming...

I'm currently working on finishing up my rom set for the MAME cabinet I want to build in the near future... I think I'll shoot for the nearer future in light of all this.

Foley if your reading this... Go die in the forest, Foreskin breath!

As far as the MAME developement team requesting that the auctions be pulled I can understand that. You have to defend your property or you lose it.

[Kid Ice]

Hmmmm....I wonder if a commercial version of MAME isn't ahead...

[Griking]

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

Where do the Mame team have the right to make this demand? Last I knew the rights to the roms themself were owned by the companies who made the games, not the Mame team. Actually, Mame has done everything they could to distance themselves from the actual game roms to avoid being associated with piracy.

The same goes with the game images. What right do the Mame team have to say that I can't put a screenshot of say Donkey Kong in an auction listing? Wouldn't that be Nintendo's problem?

[Ed Oscuro]

First off, trying to steal somebody else's trademark is always the wrong thing to do and makes you a sneaky bastard. That's pretty simple. Secondly...

Simply put, we are making an effort to stamp out the commercial sales of M.A.M.E. based systems that advertise the ability to play thousands of games while relying on the customer to obtain the ROMs which can not legally be obtained.

Eh? Who said that's any of his business? What he's trying to do is stamp out competition. Being ruthless perhaps means you've got "business sense," but I see that as perverse.

I have a number of Capcom ROMs on MAME (.36 era-ish) that I own legally, licensed by Hanaho Games from Capcom (or however that goes).

I would like to see illegal MAME cabinet sales on eBay killed, and so does the MAME team (officially, anyhow!).

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

[LocalH]

As far as I know, this shit is completely over. Foley rescinded his trademark application, and I believe Nicola has either applied, or applied and already received the trademark.

[Ed Oscuro]

As far as I know, this shit is completely over.

Yup. I've seen another experience where some idiot tries to trademark a name so somebody else couldn't use it...noble intentions there (Foley's suspect really just because he's got a product, I've got nothing on him besides that) but it makes you look like an ass.

Oh, and if the examiner lets this stuff by, they've totally punted. You don't give people registrations (or copyrights) for stuff they didn't originate, but you've got to be on top of things to make sure the office doesn't mess that up. MAME is somewhat of a bafflement since the guy came out and said he was pretty much anti-MAME and Nicola's name is well known, but the link between rightful trademark owner and the "trademark" can easily be overlooked, especially if the rightful owner isn't interesting in registering.

Hence, register everything...and print stuff out...

[Griking]

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

Maybe under normal circumstances but Mame has no purpose without the use of the illegal roms that they supposingly want to distance themselves from.

Also, demand #6 doesn't say anything about bundling roms with Mame. They just say that you "must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product."

Now let me make it clear, I don't sell roms, cabinets or anything Mame related but if I were going to make a cabinet and include 5 DVDs full of roms that would work on Mame if the buyer downloaded it himself what right does Mame say that I can't do that? Isn't that like Microsoft saying that I can't sell a book that I wrote that was in *.doc format because it can be viewed / opened with Word? I know at Staples we sell HP compatible printer cartridges that have no other purpose other than to be used in HP printers

[Captain Wrong]

All I know is I see an alarming amount of MAME cabs at auction anymore and they always seem to bring some of the highest bids. I've got no problem with people making and selling them. That's their biz. And if they wanna include teh r0mz (illegally, of course) that's between them, their concience and the law. I personally don't feel they should be at coin-op auctions. Just my 2 cents so I can understand why they might go after the people on eBay as that's probably the only area they might be able to patrol.

And I think Aron Giles is right on the money about this:

In order to use the trademark, we are going to have to set up some rules under which it can be used. This is likely going to come in the form of, simply, "You must request explicit permission to use the MAME trademark."

Of course, permission will be given to many legitimate uses (still have to ask, though!) But there is indeed a growing commercial sector that is abusing the MAME name to make claims that aren't true without violating the law ("Play 1000s of arcade games!" -- yeah right, show me your license for that), and quite frankly, many of the MAME team members are as against that as Mr. Foley is.

We'll be announcing more details shortly, but the most likely end result is going to be: if you want to use the MAME name, you've got to get rid of your illegal ROM links, your information on how to buy/download illegal ROMs, and your claims that anything you sell will let you play 100s or 1000s of games (unless you've legitimately licensed them).

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Griking: Come on. If I create software, I have every right to say "Don't bundle this with Software X (be it competition, *.DLLs I've got for sale elsewhere, or anything illegal).

Maybe under normal circumstances but Mame has no purpose without the use of the illegal roms that they supposingly want to distance themselves from.

Emulating systems isn't illegal, and that's been established for quite a while now. So saying there's no use to MAME (note that the code listings are freely available) isn't looking at the larger picture.

Secondly, you're assuming a whole lot with "illegal." This is the same garbage that P2P detractors use to claim that P2P (which is, indeed, the way of the future...way of the future) isn't usable for anything but illegal file sharing. Did you miss the part where I said I legally own some Capcom ROMs?

The MAME license works and is fair under law. Pure and simple.

[Jorpho]

Indeed, you can use MAME to play Gridlee, Poly-Play, and Robby Roto without any legal consequences.

[NE146]

I personally don't feel they should be at coin-op auctions.

I heartily agree.. there is something pretty stupid at trying to sell off a PC in a glorified casing as an actual coin-op. As a hobby project? Sure. But being sold along with other coin-ops is sort of like selling a tv-out laptop w/Z26 on it along with other 2600's.

[Griking]

Secondly, you're assuming a whole lot with "illegal." This is the same garbage that P2P detractors use to claim that P2P (which is, indeed, the way of the future...way of the future) isn't usable for anything but illegal file sharing. Did you miss the part where I said I legally own some Capcom ROMs?

If Mame's original purpose was so just play the Hanaho/Capcom roms (which I own as well btw) and someone else hacked it to play all roms I might agree with you. But Mame had already been out and providing a way to play illegal game roms for years at that point.

As far as P2P I again don't think its a a good comparison. you can use P2P to download ANY kind of file. Its only illegal if you're downloading copyrighted things. Mame's entire purpose on the other hand is to play bootleged (with the exception of a few already mentioned) games.

[Ed Oscuro]

... Mame had already been out and providing a way to play illegal game roms for years at that point.

Take a look at what Jorpho posted, and again, at what I wrote. There are legitimate purposes for MAME, and the drivers are meant to be generally compatible with the systems they emulate.

Now, if you're saying that there was a case to be made that MAME started out as a project with no legal uses (I don't think this has ever been the case, as it's an overall framework being built up over time to gain legal uses), then you might have something. But as of right now, you can't argue that MAME at present has no fair uses.

[Griking]

I've been using Mame for many many years now and I'm now distressed that I may have been missing the big picture.

What was/is the primary function of Mame other than providing the ability to play roms?

All of the other feature of Mame that I enjoy (the history files, snapshot & cabinet pics, etc...) were added after Mame had already been established as a rom playing tool. Even the ability to play Gridlee, Poly-Play, and Robby Roto were added after the fact.

[Ed Oscuro]

As far as P2P I again don't think its a a good comparison.

On the contrary; it's the best comparison I can think of because it deals with legitimate technology that has gained infamy due to its legion illegitimate uses.

For purposes of this discussion, we can say that the biggest thing separating Nullsoft (eh) Shoutcast broadcasting from MAME is that one allows you to broadcast your voice or any other home made recorded material. MAME seems different because arcade games = corporate property, right? Well, you've got some MAME games that are now private property.

Some folks don't like it, but as our lives grow more and more technology-centric we'll need to have software available for many tasks if we are to protect freedom of speech. What we need is a cheap system for selling game licenses to consumers, or even a home use only license for allowing you to use copies of an arcade game at a library, and the library would have a license for it much like they do a book.

[SoulBlazer]

So if someone wants to build a MAME cabinet and wants to buy the parts, and then emulate games on it that he ALLREADY owns, that will still be allright?

And if someone wants to sell a MAME cabinet, he needs to contact MAME first for permission to sell it on EBay and can't make any mention AT ALL of what it's USED for?

[Nature Boy]

Take a look at what Jorpho posted, and again, at what I wrote. There are legitimate purposes for MAME, and the drivers are meant to be generally compatible with the systems they emulate.

Yeah yeah yeah, everybody knows that the emulation on it's own isn't illegal. But come off your high horse - you know as well as I do that 99.9% of the people who use and enjoy MAME do so with illegally obtained software.

Did it occur to you that perhaps they're just trying to keep the project from getting canned by the big boys? Isn't that why they ask you and I to not distribute the software with roms that aren't in the public domain? Isn't it reasonable to think "hey, if I copywrite this perhaps I can stop people on eBay from jeopardizing all of my hard work just so they can make a buck?"

The only stuff I've read about this is in this thread, but I saw nothing unreasonable. Excepting, of course, the typical overinflated sense of entitlement...

[ddockery]

So if someone wants to build a MAME cabinet and wants to buy the parts, and then emulate games on it that he ALLREADY owns, that will still be allright?

And if someone wants to sell a MAME cabinet, he needs to contact MAME first for permission to sell it on EBay and can't make any mention AT ALL of what it's USED for?

You're mising the point. MAME cannot be legaly sold in any way. Selling any cabinet with MAME installed is illegal in and of itself. You can build and sell arcade cabinets with PCs connected to them all day, but MAME should not be installed. In this case, it's not a "MAME cabinet" at all. Sure, whoever buys it would probably install MAME, but when it's sold, it's just a PC in a cab.

As far as whether it's alright to build a cab to play roms you own, why in the world wouldn't it be?

[Diatribal Deity]

I believe Mr. Foley actually posted on here once...let me see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NayusDante
"Ultracade as a company doesn't exist anymore. GlobalVR bought them,
and the original founder went on to insult the emulation community by filing copyright on the MAME logo."

Originally posted by DAVIDFOLEY
"You have your facts and timeline incorrect. I filed a trademark application for the word MAME to put a stop to commercial entities selling MAME based machines without licenses which were cutting into UltraCade sales. I had contacted the MAME team asking them to do something about it, and the requests went unanswered so I took legal actions to remedy the situation. Once the MAME team became involved, I gladly handed the trademark over to them. Aaron Giles confirmed this but most of the online community was too immature or motivated by other factors to listen to the facts. Also, this was done several years before we sold UltraCade."


Quote:
Originally Posted by NayusDante
"GlobalVR has a multi-arcade cabinet now, which includes more things like Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, Gauntlet, and maybe 1/3 of the original Ultracade 86-game-pack. It doesn't have any of the Capcom, Toaplan, or Williams stuff, from what I saw."

Originally posted by DAVIDFOLEY
"GlobalVR has discontinued this cabinet. It had less games than UltraCade did. We had Dragon's Lair et all on the UltraCade platform before GlobalVR acquired it and subsequently lost most of the licenses agreements.

Next year my MegaCade upgrade hardware will be released for the consumer market that will upgrade all existing UltraCade and Arcade Legends machines, and will have the option to load hundreds more games."

Looks like what goes around comes around.

[BetaWolf47]

Indeed, that was in my thread here:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132373