Video Games -- A Girl Thing?

[mr_nihilism]

If I suddenly started reading romance novels I wouldn't expect realistic portrayals of men.

Seriously, why is it that men don't seem to complain about such things, yet women are quick to do so?

I mean if I were to ask my male buddies what they thihk about the portrayal of men in novels or in games, well, they will probably say little. Perhaps even shrug as if to say "who cares?"

[Promophile]

Internet crashed reposting this.

[bargora]

Yes, Promophile, it is good that some games allow customization. And I will not dispute your point that many women who already play video games choose to use attractive, perhaps even unrealistically attractive avatars.

But the point of the article is that to attract new women gamers (you know, the ones who don't like video games because maybe they aren't comfortable with the usual current array of pre-made sexy-lady avatars),

maybe it would be cool if there were, oh, say, maybe at least one female non-sexy-lady avatar available to play.

As far as I can tell, you are saying:

1) There should not be any non-sexy-lady female avatars available in games that do not allow avatar appearance customization, because
2) you wouldn't want to have to look at a non-sexy-lady female avatar for any period of time, and
3) to hell with any women who might otherwise play video games but don't because they are put off by the current selection of sexpot-only female avatars in most games featuring non-customizable avatars (i.e., most console games), because
4) you don't care whether the market for video games grows or not.

In other words, in your world, ALL VIDEO GAME WOMEN OUGHT TO BE HOT.

Since you seem to be missing the point, I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE NEED TO ELIMINATE THE SEXY-LADY-AVATARS. Nor am I saying that you must look at the non-sexy-lady avatars, or that non-sexy-lady avatars must be, to use your word, "fugly", or that you should enjoy looking at ugly things.

If you feel personally attacked, it is only because it seems to me that you are being purposefully obtuse.

[Lady Jaye]

Oh well, I guess then I shall never play a Mario game again, because you know, Mario doesn't correspond to the typical male sex model. Maybe we should ask Nintendo that they replace Mario, Luigi and Wario by Castlevania male characters.

Heck, let's bring this one step further! Let's ask G4 to have a male virtual model contest! Between the Castlevania characters and the RE4 main character and the last couple of Final Fantasies, just to name a few, there's oughta be enough entries!

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

Sheesh. Reading this thread has made me long for the intellectual cleansing power of Strawberry Shortcake on the 2600. And that's all I'm gonna say. :P

Oh, and whoever says games aren't for girls has never seen my wife play Master Of Orion 2 or Star Control 2. That is all.

[Atar1G1rl]

why doesnt barbie get a job and stop bishing at ken for everything??

Have you not been in a Toys R Us lately? Barbie's been everything from a doctor to a freakin' astronaut.

Kristine

OK, this is driving me nuts. Barbie dumped Ken over a year ago. Geesh!

[le geek]

Looks like a may be too late to add some discussion but who knows...

If you go to another article...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03...s_6120413.html

GS: Have female characters in games changed over time?

SGR: That's something we're working on. I expect we'll see it change, because that's something I've been screaming and hollering about the loudest. I'm going to speak specifically about avatars, because avatars are what we ask our player to identify with. The avatar is the representation of the player in the virtual environment. So this is going to be you.

Now, every time I talk about avatars, I get a lot of push back. They say, "We exaggerate male characters just like we do female characters; you girls are just too sensitive." That's true in some ways, and it's not true in some ways. What's true is, because we want that avatar to represent us, and we want to be the hero of the story, we want that avatar to be a hero. There are certain physical traits that we equate with being a hero. We expect our heroes to be young, we expect them to be strong, and we expect them to be either virile or fertile.

There actually are physiological signals that say this. We know that, for males, those signals are broad shoulders, narrow waist, slim hips, large arms, large legs, and long, thick hair. For females, those signals are large breasts, placed high on the chest cavity, slender waist, round derriere, and long, thick, flowing hair. We exaggerate those traits [for both genders].

What we do differently with our female characters is we add an additional layer of exaggeration. We exaggerate those traits that say, "I'm ready for sex right now." When the human body is ready for sex, there's a blood rush to the face, we see a reddening and a thickening of the lips, we see a thickening of the eyelids--resulting in that heavy, bedroom-eye kind of look--we see an open mouth with an increased respiration rate, and erect nipples. What we do with our female characters is exaggerate those. And then we dress her to emphasize those traits.

Males exhibit exactly the same traits--with one notable addition--when they are ready for sex.

GS: One you probably can't put in a video game.

SGR: It would be funny if we did! But we don't exaggerate them on the male, do we? So what we do is put a character in the game that says, "I'm ready for sex," all the time, and we ask our female players to be that person. And then we wonder why she gets come-ons from the other males. Of course guys are going to respond to that. And we give her no choice. We force her to be viewed that way, and to display these traits at all times.

There's no male player I'm aware of that would be comfortable with a male character that was displaying these traits. So bringing this awareness to our artists and developers is one of my mini-crusades. To understand what we do with our female characters compared to our male characters, and what we can do to increase the comfort level for our female players when you give them avatar characters to play. Don't hypersexualize them, but make them young, make them strong, make them fertile.

[calthaer]

The problem with her attitude has nothing to do with gender this or that and everything with the fact that nobody wants to consider that games, like just about every other medium, have predilections or "biases" towards certain types of content (see Marshal McLuhan and stuff like "The Medium is the Message"). That content may or may not be of interest to the majority of the female persuasion - it may not simply be a matter of doing more thinking and research on the subject of "how can we make games that women want to play." Maybe - in general - women want to socialize with other people rather than swing digital swords or shoot virtual guns. Maybe a chat room is a more interesting "game" than Mario Bros. for them.

The idea that media are neutral vehicles for ideas is something that they're glossing right over when it should be the start of their conversation.

[methuselah]

SGR: It would be funny if we did! But we don't exaggerate them on the male, do we? So what we do is put a character in the game that says, "I'm ready for sex," all the time, and we ask our female players to be that person. And then we wonder why she gets come-ons from the other males. Of course guys are going to respond to that. And we give her no choice. We force her to be viewed that way, and to display these traits at all times.

There's no male player I'm aware of that would be comfortable with a male character that was displaying these traits.

Leisure Suit Larry would fit the bill I think

[Daria]

heros are someone you can look up to or admire, not someone you can identify with and be on the same level as.

Right... sorry nope. Don't look up to whores. As for being on their level? I like to think I've above the level of the average lonely man's fantasy.

[E Nice]

It also sounds like some of it can be jealousy over appearance.

[Daria]

Why does non revealing clothing automatically equate to ugly? A woman doesn't have to have huge tits and a thong up to her shoulder blades to be attractive. And if she does you're in for some serious fucking disapointment in your personal lives.

Personally I don't always mind the sexy avatar. In fact concerning some characters the role fits them perfectly. Angela from Sekien Densetsu 3 or Dias/Bleu from Breath of Fire are two characters I absolutely adore.

But playing those characters is my descion, I want the choice not to if I prefer it. There's no reason the market has to cater to the average teenage male with a chronic conditon of blue balls, and wasn't that the whole point of the article? To attract female gamers who don't want to put up with your sterotypical bullshit?

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

[soniko_karuto]

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

Sorry to dissapoint you, and sorry to be so direct, but if you see it that way, then you are no better than them. Do the usual, you don't like something, don't do it.

[Daria]

In closing any boy who has the nerve to sit there and tell me that I have to play a bimbo because that's just the way things are and that I have to get used to it can go fuck himself.

Sorry to dissapoint you, and sorry to be so direct, but if you see it that way, then you are no better than them. Do the usual, you don't like something, don't do it.

Do what? Swear? o.O

[Promophile]

I lost my internet for like the last 6 hours which is why my last post was screwed up. Anyways, back to what I was saying. I would rather play a game with "hot" or "cute" characters than one with fugly characters. Some people seem to take that to mean that what I'm saying is that if a game doesn't contain "hot girls" (the definition of this is debatable) I won't play it, which I didn't mean at all. All I was trying to say was that the majority of gamers want good looking characters, and thats what the game companies are delivering. It's kinda like a researcher stating that black kids score lower on standardized tests being labeled a racist. I'm just saying how it is, not how I WANT it to be. Calthaer hit the nail on the head. Like it or not, games are NOT a neutral medium, it panders almost totally towards males, especially in the US (In Japan female versions of Harvest Moon are actually good sellers).

[Promophile]

The problem with her attitude has nothing to do with gender this or that and everything with the fact that nobody wants to consider that games, like just about every other medium, have predilections or "biases" towards certain types of content (see Marshal McLuhan and stuff like "The Medium is the Message"). That content may or may not be of interest to the majority of the female persuasion - it may not simply be a matter of doing more thinking and research on the subject of "how can we make games that women want to play." Maybe - in general - women want to socialize with other people rather than swing digital swords or shoot virtual guns. Maybe a chat room is a more interesting "game" than Mario Bros. for them.

The idea that media are neutral vehicles for ideas is something that they're glossing right over when it should be the start of their conversation.

Very succulently put. I totally agree with everything that you've said. Not to go on a rant or anything but these days everything has to be equal without bias in order to be PC. Some things are just naturally biased yet some people refuse to aknowledge that.

[DDCecil]

This thread reminded me, aren't we coming up to the tenth anniversary of Tomb Raider? It can't be too far off.

Pfft Forget Lara Croft, Time Gal (Real name Layka or Reika) turns 20 this year! She may have skimpier clothes than some heroines, but she is a smart scientist (It says so right in the manual).

[soniko_karuto]

the fault of all these stupid feminist rants about games, is of mattel and their barbie games. I mean, every girl that played that p.o.s., got scared and very much bored, and say to hell with nintendo(that's what video games where called when they got their second air).

[hydr0x]

i'm not going to reply on anything said in this thread as both sides are using absolutely ridiculous argumentation (yes, BOTH sides)

i'd just like to add to points to think about

- does anyone really think more girls will game just because there are more average-looking chars? come on, where do you live, the target group would be 12-25 years old, have you looked at that age group recently, they are not far away from dressing like the game characters (and if you're calling the chars "whores" @Daria, then you're calling a lot of real women that way!)

- why do women always complain whenever there's something where there are more men than women?? i just don't get it, no man would ever complain about there being more women in a lot of fields of our life. If you want equality, live equality, and stop bitching about every little thing where the female rate is under 50%, it's never going to be 50/50 in everything, because interests differ!

[hydr0x]

But playing those characters is my descion, I want the choice not to if I prefer it.

i ask you this, do you really think men have any choice?? the vast majority of male characters is also your typical trained handsome sexy guy, and that's more away from reality than the female chars, just look at the reality and see what the avarage american man looks like, and you'll hopefully realize we are not better off than the girls are, we are just not complaining all the time...