Can someone please rationalize this for me? [game ratings]

[njiska]

Look i know this probably said a thousand times before. Hell it's probably been said everytime a controversy has come up. But all the same i'd really like someone to explain to me why content that's exceptable in an R rated movie, isn't fit to be in an M rated game? M and R both mean no one under 17 without parental consent, so i'm, havin trouble understanding.

The Punisher originally received an AO rating from the ESRB and had to be toned down inorder to get an M despite the fact that the level of gore in the game was no worse than just about any slasher flick. I know this for a fact because interestinly enough an uncensor hack was released for the game that allowed the violence in it's true glory (Notice that it barely got any media attention?).

Flash-forward several months later and now we've got the hot coffee dispute. Hot coffee is no worse then anything i've seen in R rated movies so it shouldn't get the AO for the visuals.

NOTE: Nudity is not part of the original source. For proof use the ps2 hack. No nudity, plus no penetration = non-explicit content. Here's a quote from gamespot on the subject.

The next screen proved that the PlayStation 2 edition of the game does indeed include a sexually graphic minigame, which plays almost exactly the same as the Hot Coffee mod. It begins inside a bedroom with Denise, wearing only a pink thong and a cutoff T-shirt bearing the Rockstar logo, performing simulated fellatio on CJ, who is fully clothed in jeans and a "wife beater"-style tank top.

Maybe because it's interactive? Nope can be that. God of War featured an interactive sex mini-game (action takes place off screen), but nobody said anything (and if you know what's good for you, you never will).

Hmm maybe both at once? Now that's just petty. Oh they can see it or experience it, but not both at the same time because that would make our sweet little children run out and fuck the brains out of their girlfriends. Oh wait? They probably already are.

If you ask me the whole rating system is a bit arcahic. I mean it's designed to protect the youth, but it neglects that youth culture has changed. Sex isn't something to be spoken about behind closed doors, it's open, it's common place, it's normal to know about sex and even to talk about it. As for violence, well look, the world's a violent place. People die, children die, children even have there legs broken or cut off just so some old bastard get get a few extra Rupees. The world is a shitty place, but it's not the games that make it that way, it's us. Games are a mindless escape. They free us from the shitty world we live in. They're meant to be fun and takes us to a place we could never go. The only difference between movies/books and ames is that games are interactive and generally more fun. Besides if it's rated M well, we all know what M means don't we? It means if your over 17 you can buy it, if you're under 17 then it's up to your parents. In this situation like many others i take the following stance: "If nothing happens, no harm, no foul. If something happens then you're a shitty parent."

Normally i'm not worried because we always win on creative merit but this time it looks like Yee and his cronies may have a case and if they succeed it could lead to harsh censorship and that ruins creativity. I know they'd have ruined my beloved Killer 7 if they could've gotten there hands on it. I really don't want to see the creativity and expressive freedom of the gaming industry die, over something like this when it doesn't even make any sense. The rating double standard is ludicris at best.

And to the people who say that games are just killing simulators used to desensitise our children i'd like to point out the one of the most popular "killing simulators" on the PC (and soon to be consoles) is America's Army. Hey Jack Thompson aka Assholeus in Extremeus, why don't you go bitch about that? Let's see how long it is before you end up in Gitmo.

So what's the problem really? Why should content be, 17+ (give or take) movie, 18+(No one under) game?

Just in case anyone's wondering, i'm a single 21 year old, Canadian male with no children. I've oppossed censorship for many years on the grounds of creative merit and while it may seem like i'm just bitchin now, i'm actually a really level headed guy and a reasonable individual. I understand it makes things easier if you can prevet a child from seeing something, but really it's just avoiding the issue not dealin with it. Conversation is a more valuable tool the censorship anyday.

Note to mods: Please don't lock this because it's not in the hot coffee thread. I don't want this post to be about hot coffee, it's about the unfair double standard the games have classically had to put up with.

[GraveyardDeciple]

You know I've been thinking the same thing myself. I don't think I can answer that one.

[Dr. Morbis]

Short answer: Because lawmakers (and most people from older generations) equate video games with children. If there's a greater (percieved) chance of a child seeing the same content if it's in a game as opposed to a movie, wouldn't you tighten up your standards too?

[Sothy]

what about hot coffee?

IS that a new filter or what.

[njiska]

Short answer: Because lawmakers (and most people from older generations) equate video games with children. If there's a greater (percieved) chance of a child seeing the same content if it's in a game as opposed to a movie, wouldn't you tighten up your standards too?

Hell no. It's hardly the fault of the industry that people think games are for kids. Clearly they aren't. Well some are, but some aren't get my point? It's like animation. It use to be viewed as being something just for kids, but now in the days of Family Guy, The simpsons, Adult-swim and uber violent import anime, it's not.

People need to change not the restrictions on the system. I for one don't mind making it illeal to sell M rated games to minors, but for that to happen ratings would have to be federal and not done by the industry and that i guarentee you will lead to over zelous censorship. Why would it lead to that you may ask? Because the people rating the games would be people who felt ames were for kids and not people who know better.

Besides both movies and games are rated by their respective industries and compliance is optional. The only reason that the R-rating is enforced is because the theatres choose to do so. See i have to live with federal ratings here in Canada, but things work a little differently here. We're more open with our content (especially Quebec). In America right now there is simply too much conservative, backpedaling to think that the goverment could do a fair job rating instead of simple becoming a giant censor stamp.

This concerns me because even though i wouldn't have to deal with your ratings system if it ever came to that, America is the core market and games are designed to fit it's standards, so i'd suffer by proxy.

[Gamereviewgod]

Games are a hot topic. If a senator can use one single game out of the 1000+ released each year to garner votes from an older and more likely to vote demographic, he'll do it.

(I love Leland Yee saying the ESRB doesn't work because it's funded by the game companies... here's a note buddy: So is the MPAA)

If a lawyer can take a parent who believes a game is responsible for their kids problems, charge them legal fees, and get the case tossed out on absurdity, he'll do it.

(How many cases has Jack Thompson filed? How many has he won? I know the latter, and that's zero).

Games are the new scapegoat in a long line of them, starting with comic books.

[njiska]

Games are the new scapegoat in a long line of them, starting with comic books.

Preachin' to the choir. Except the climate is worse today then it was with comics. You know, Columbine, maryland Sniper and all. How bout games are the new Weed? I mean the knowledge of games being expressed by the people damning them looks to be about as accurate as Reefer madness.

[njiska]

While we're at it I'd like someone explain what exactly is confusing Mrs. Cliton about the ratings system.

"Parents face an uphill battle just understanding the ratings system," reads Senator Clinton's letter to the FTC. "They cannot and should not be expected to second guess it."


*meant to be viewed against a white background. Why the hell did the esrb make this trasparent?

Not only does the name of the rating, which is clearly written and spelled out on the mark, imply the age group, but Mature, Adults Only and Everyone 10+ have the age written numerically aswell. and that's not to mention the descriptors that also accompany it (i do realize that the person must look at the back to see this, but the fact remains it is still there).

ESRB Content Descriptors

* Alcohol Reference - Reference to and/or images of alcoholic beverages
* Animated Blood - Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood
* Blood - Depictions of blood
* Blood and Gore - Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts
* Cartoon Violence - Violent actions involving cartoon-like situations and characters. May include violence where a character is unharmed after the action has been inflicted
* Comic Mischief - Depictions or dialogue involving slapstick or suggestive humor
* Crude Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics, including “bathroom” humor
* Drug Reference - Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs
* Edutainment - Content of product provides user with specific skills development or reinforcement learning within an entertainment setting. Skill development is an integral part of product
* Fantasy Violence - Violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable from real life
* Informational - Overall content of product contains data, facts, resource information, reference materials or instructional text
* Intense Violence - Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons, and depictions of human injury and death
* Language - Mild to moderate use of profanity
* Lyrics - Mild references to profanity, sexuality, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music
* Mature Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving "adult" humor, including sexual references
* Mild Violence - Mild scenes depicting characters in unsafe and/or violent situations
* Nudity - Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity
* Partial Nudity - Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity
* Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Sexual Themes - Mild to moderate sexual references and/or depictions. May include partial nudity
* Sexual Violence - Depictions of rape or other sexual acts
* Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Some Adult Assistance May Be Needed - Intended for very young ages
* Strong Language - Explicit and/or frequent use of profanity
* Strong Lyrics - Explicit and/or frequent references to profanity, sex, violence, alcohol, or drug use in music
* Strong Sexual Content - Graphic references to and/or depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity
* Suggestive Themes - Mild provocative references or materials
* Tobacco Reference - Reference to and/or images of tobacco products
* Use of Drugs - The consumption or use of illegal drugs
* Use of Alcohol - The consumption of alcoholic beverages
* Use of Tobacco - The consumption of tobacco products
* Violence - Scenes involving aggressive conflict

Additionally, online games that include user-generated content (e.g., chat, maps, skins) carry the notice "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" to warn consumers that content created by players of the game has not been rated by the ESRB.

------------------------------------------------------------

Looks pretty clear to me. Besides is it that hard to ask a store clerk? It all comes back to parents not preforming due diligence.

[evildead2099]

i'd really like someone to explain to me why content that's exceptable in an R rated movie, isn't fit to be in an M rated game? M and R both mean no one under 17 without parental consent, so i'm, havin trouble understanding.

I can offer two explanations:

Explanation #1 (which I consider somewhat acceptable): Videogame ratings aren't taken as seriously as movie ratings. Since ratings concerning content of an adult nature are not taken as seriously in games as they are in movies, one can argue that is less acceptable for games of an adult nature to exist.

Explanation #2 (Which I find unacceptable and annoys me to no end): Parents and politicians (Lieberman, I'm looking at you ) STILL buy into the misconception that since only little kiddies play videogames, no adult content should be featured in videogames since that content targets an inappropriate audicence. This explanation accounts for the fact that, given America's culture of violence, it is acceptable for videogames to depict acts of violence and war (i.e. Contra, Soviet Strike, etc) but less acceptable for those games to feature nudity or curse words.

[Griking]

i'd really like someone to explain to me why content that's exceptable in an R rated movie, isn't fit to be in an M rated game? M and R both mean no one under 17 without parental consent, so i'm, havin trouble understanding.

Here's my take.

Lets take a movie like Goodfellas as an example. Its a very violent film and it rightfully so received an 'R' rating. There are murders in the game but as a viewer you don't take part in them, you only a spectator who watches them as they happen. There's no interaction on our part. In a game however many times you're sometimes free to go off and do whatever you want to do. If you want to slaughter every innocent that you pass and laugh at the dumb expressions on their faces when they die then that's what you do. Also, more importantly, in a movie you the viewer aren't rewarded based on how many people are killed like you may be in a videogame. In games a person is generally rewarded for killing and stealing. Mayby not necessarily with money or points but with new items (that they've stolen) and gameplay that you wouldn't get unless you were encouraged to be evil.

[smokehouse]

Simply put it’s an easy target. Back in the day it was the music industry, now it’s video games. You have to look at who the people who are causing the problems. Mouthy social activists and politicians pushing it and bible thumping parents soaking it up. I grew up in a fairly strict Christian home and met strong opposition to my video game playing. My mother even made me watch Lieberman and Gore lament about Night Trap and Mortal Kombat back when all this started in the first place.

“See…this causes violent and antisocial behavior, you shouldn’t play those games.”

I know this is a broken record but NO blame is placed on the parents. The two from Columbine were a prime example. Look at those two losers, can anyone actually tell me that they were trained to do what they did by watching the Basketball Diaries, listening to Marilyn Manson and playing Doom? I have been into competition sport shooting since I was 7 and have been through the military as well and can clearly tell you that Doom and shitty music is no training for anyone. A person will not learn how to effectively use a weapon from a video game, it’s apples and oranges. These kids were nuts and they had to be showing signs of extreme antisocial behavior for years, their parents simply refused to see it.

We are a generation of blamers, we don’t take responsibility for our actions and that’s what happened here. The parents found an easy way out by blaming the media instead of exposing their shit parenting. Politicians pick up on this, talk about it and win votes.

For every person a video game has “helped” to kill, tobacco has directly killed 10,000. I don’t see many politicians jumping on that one. Nor do I see bible thumpers up in arms about it either, they’d rather their children smoke a cigar than play Mortal Kombat. Ok, that’s a stretch but you get the point. There’s still smoking sections in restaurants all across the country and our children and ourselves are exposed to it every time we go out, who discusses that? Not our Governor, he’s too busy trying to get a statewide video game ratings system up and running.

The fact is that I have been gaming for over 15 years now and I am a totally normal and functional member of society. I don’t beat my wife, take guns to work nor do I torture my cat.

Its politics and what gets the votes my friends, nothing more. Anyone remember how you would join a cult if you played Dungeons and Dragons? Hmmmm…what happened to that, I guess it got overshadowed.

[njiska]

I grew up in a fairly strict Christian home and met strong opposition to my video game playing. My mother even made me watch Lieberman and Gore lament about Night Trap and Mortal Kombat back when all this started in the first place.

“See…this causes violent and antisocial behavior, you shouldn’t play those games.”

You poor bastard. You have my sympathy. FYI here's a Liebermam quote no gamer should be with out:

"I have always said the ESRB system was the best rating system in the entertainment media, and these changes will make it even better?more informative, more precise, and more enforceable for retailers," Lieberman said. "I appreciate the ESRB's ongoing commitment to helping parents make smart choices for their kids. I hope parents will return the favor by making better use of these better ratings, for in the end they have the primary responsibility to protect their kids from potentially harmful games. And I hope retailers will finally accept their responsibility to help parents do that job, and commit as an industry to stop selling adult-rated games to kids." Related Link

For every person a video game has “helped” to kill, tobacco has directly killed 10,000. I don’t see many politicians jumping on that one. Nor do I see bible thumpers up in arms about it either, they’d rather their children smoke a cigar than play Mortal Kombat.

I don't want to argue with a person who seems to share my point of view. But i think your tabacco reference is way off. Way too low.

The fact is that I have been gaming for over 15 years now and I am a totally normal and functional member of society. I don’t beat my wife, take guns to work nor do I torture my cat.

Its politics and what gets the votes my friends, nothing more. Anyone remember how you would join a cult if you played Dungeons and Dragons? Hmmmm…what happened to that, I guess it got overshadowed.

5 Year D&D player.
Been gaming all my life.
I love rock music.
Been shooting since i was 12.

But, i've never killed anyone.
Never shot at anyone.
Never even took a swing at someone, even if they deserved it.
Never joined a cult, but i don't beleive in god either.

I'm just a normal guy. Just like you.

[Gamereviewgod]

But i think your tabacco reference is way off. Way too low.

Why? Was he lying? If he did, I didn't read it right.

[DJBoy416]

All a parent has to do is say,"Sorry,you can`t play that".The ESRB rating is doing an OK job,I just wish the parents would actually take the time to look at the rating and read the discriptions on the back.Then we wouldn`t have the parent groups and politicans griping.

Although,I do think that deep down,the senators,soccer moms,etc.don`t want to,nor intend to,do anything about video games.They will always need something to complain about and show mock concern over...without that something,these people will have no reason to appear on TV,do the whole"I care about the children" routine,and try to fool everyone into thinking that they`re some good folk that`s going to protect the kids.

[smokehouse]

I just threw the tobacco number out there, Njiska is right, I imagine the number is much higher but I thought a 10,000:1 would be safe and get my point across.

I personally have nothing against ESRB ratings. My beef is that people like Lieberman want mature games stopped altogether. That’s the hidden message I get from their lengthy speeches. It seems to me that people like him are tying to whitewash America, and it’s this ulterior motive that really concerns me. Funny enough their speeches help sell the very thing their bitching about. Any here actually play Night Trap or listen to 2 Live Crew? They stunk, 2 Live was a hack rap group and Night Trap was a boring pile of crap BUT…thanks to the morons pushing them in the spotlight, the both saw large increases in sales.

Companies will always push the envelope when it comes to videogame violence. That’s how it works. Companies will also make clean games as well, for every GTA or Mortal Kombat you have many titles like Zelda, Mario (Party, Cart, Golf, etc), Metroid, Sonic, Final Fantasy and many more. Like I said before, it’s the popular thing to promote right now. In ten or less years it will be something else. Hell, maybe Dungeons and Dragons or porn will pop back up?

(Yep, I played AD&D back in the day as ell and no, I don’t worship Satan)

[zmweasel]

The Punisher originally received an AO rating from the ESRB and had to be toned down inorder to get an M despite the fact that the level of gore in the game was no worse than just about any slasher flick. I know this for a fact because interestinly enough an uncensor hack was released for the game that allowed the violence in it's true glory (Notice that it barely got any media attention?).

Is there a website with pics of the uncensored version? I'd love to see the carnage for myself and determine if it's any worse than what's been in M-rated games. I'm fascinated that a game managed to get an AO rating for violence alone.

-- Z.

[felix]

I just threw the tobacco number out there, Njiska is right, I imagine the number is much higher but I thought a 10,000:1 would be safe and get my point across.

I personally have nothing against ESRB ratings. My beef is that people like Lieberman want mature games stopped altogether. That’s the hidden message I get from their lengthy speeches. It seems to me that people like him are tying to whitewash America, and it’s this ulterior motive that really concerns me. Funny enough their speeches help sell the very thing their bitching about. Any here actually play Night Trap or listen to 2 Live Crew? They stunk, 2 Live was a hack rap group and Night Trap was a boring pile of crap BUT…thanks to the morons pushing them in the spotlight, the both saw large increases in sales.

Companies will always push the envelope when it comes to videogame violence. That’s how it works. Companies will also make clean games as well, for every GTA or Mortal Kombat you have many titles like Zelda, Mario (Party, Cart, Golf, etc), Metroid, Sonic, Final Fantasy and many more. Like I said before, it’s the popular thing to promote right now. In ten or less years it will be something else. Hell, maybe Dungeons and Dragons or porn will pop back up?

(Yep, I played AD&D back in the day as ell and no, I don’t worship Satan)

I agree with you 100%.. I see history as 1 continuous loop. We are going through the same bullcrap that we saw 10 years ago and we will see it again 10 years from now, after this dies down and another GTA of its time comes out.

As far as the ratings, you just have to be smart about it. I mean, if you want to compare it to the movie rating system, go ahead.. its practiclly the same thing.. Riddle me this: Why does The Matrix get an "R" rating with no nudity, little swearing and a LOT less blood than most pg13 slasher movies? Why did Airplane get a PG13 rating with scenes of topless women? Why don't people complain about that?

I think that its just society as a whole. People need to have something to complain about/ protest or they don't feel like their lives are complete. Parents who think they can fix the world need to sit down, shut up and change the problems under their own roof first. Personally, I think something that comes with parenthood is learning to adapt to the everchanging problems of today and tomorrow. If parents do their research or even take 30 seconds to ask a store-salesman about a rating, this controversy might not have happened. Parents want to blame videogames because they are too ignorant to accept the fact that they are in the wrong.. not the videogames that their children play. Its so much easier to point out the faults in others than to take a look at yourself and accept the fact that you are not perfect and YES you do make mistakes.

"A fool learns from his mistakes, a wiseman learns from the mistakes of others"..

[Graham Mitchell]

Any here actually play Night Trap or listen to 2 Live Crew? They stunk, 2 Live was a hack rap group and Night Trap was a boring pile of crap

Actually, 2 Live Crew has some real merit to it. Lyrically it's just silliness, but their DJ was amazing. The guy was clearly a big music fan, and the selections of tunes he would sample were just plain eclectic--from Kraftwerk to Roy Orbison. He also had some bizarre collection of dirty records clearly made in the '50s or something, and they were as shocking as they were funny.

I think that anecdote represents the mixed bag that we're dealing with here. Some of these games have merit beyond the violence. I think the Metal Gear Solid series is just amazing, for example, but the violence is getting to a disturbing level for me in that series. The first 2 didn't really bother me at all, but 3 is getting more and more vicious. I'm not big on having to sneak up behind somebody and quietly slit their throat--that's kind of creepy. I also thought some of the torture sequences towards the end were a bit over the top. You really can't decide something is trash with no redeeming value just because it has a violent or sexually-explicit scene.

On the other hand, I think that a lot of games sell big numbers just because of the violence and chaos they portray. Rockstar clearly knows this, and they rarely release anything that isn't loaded with player-controlled, cold-blooded killing.

As for the "creativity" argument, how is making every game as gorey as you can creative? Video game violence has been DONE TO DEATH. There's a huge follow-the-leader mentality with respect to this right now. I'm sick of it, personally, and I don't think that putting naughty material in the games automatically makes them good games for an older crowd. I think it does just the opposite; kids will willingly pay to see titties and gore all over the place.

Making a more complicated or thought-provoking game is how the industry will "mature", but nobody seems too interested in doing that anymore. Blood and guts or a movie license. That's all the work that a lot of developers are willing to put into anything anymore.

Just in case anyone's wondering, i'm a single 21 year old, Canadian male with no children. I've oppossed censorship for many years on the grounds of creative merit and while it may seem like i'm just bitchin now, i'm actually a really level headed guy and a reasonable individual. I understand it makes things easier if you can prevet a child from seeing something, but really it's just avoiding the issue not dealin with it. Conversation is a more valuable tool the censorship anyday.

Sorry bud, but I think this is kind of an ignorrant statement. Some children are not far along enough in their development to interpret what they see and put it into proper context--ie, they cannot effectively discern fantasy from reality. It's probably not a great idea to have a 4-year-old watching Tarrintino movies or Jackass, because they imitate what they see, especially if it's portrayed in a glorifying manner. Yes, when kids are old enough to understand, it is more appropriate to discuss fantasy vs. reality with your kids, but a lot of kids aren't ready for that.

[njiska]

Is there a website with pics of the uncensored version? I'd love to see the carnage for myself and determine if it's any worse than what's been in M-rated games. I'm fascinated that a game managed to get an AO rating for violence alone.

-- Z.

I don't have any picts but if you check out the early pictures and videos and other content on IGN, you'll see it. Especially in the developer commentary.

Sorry bud, but I think this is kind of an ignorrant statement. Some children are not far along enough in their development to interpret what they see and put it into proper context--ie, they cannot effectively discern fantasy from reality. It's probably not a great idea to have a 4-year-old watching Tarrintino movies or Jackass, because they imitate what they see, especially if it's portrayed in a glorifying manner. Yes, when kids are old enough to understand, it is more appropriate to discuss fantasy vs. reality with your kids, but a lot of kids aren't ready for that.

Where did i ever claim that all children were? No. But that doesn't change the point that i was trying to make which is that education is more powerful then censorship. It's like the abstenince vs. condoms debate. Really it applies more to the teenage group rather then the 4 year old group (which should still theortically be able to handle it, if raised properly. I mean look how we lived for centuries.)

I think that anecdote represents the mixed bag that we're dealing with here. Some of these games have merit beyond the violence. I think the Metal Gear Solid series is just amazing, for example, but the violence is getting to a disturbing level for me in that series. The first 2 didn't really bother me at all, but 3 is getting more and more vicious. I'm not big on having to sneak up behind somebody and quietly slit their throat--that's kind of creepy. I also thought some of the torture sequences towards the end were a bit over the top. You really can't decide something is trash with no redeeming value just because it has a violent or sexually-explicit scene.

MSG3 is a solid example because you're right it is violent, but for good reasons. Look at the situation. It's life or death, yours or his and with dozens of armed men out to get you, a silent takedown is far more effective. But you can't just knock him out because when he wakes up he'll alert others that you were there. He has to die and a slit throat is quick, quite and even kosher. It's not meant to be an emotionally satisfiying experience, it's meant to be cold and mechanical. If that disturbs you, good it means you're human. But disturbing or not the important thing about it is that it's not gratuitous. Same goes for the torture. It's an expertly shot scene that is just brutal. But it's designed to show us the suffering that snake is going through for his country and it's important to remember that Naked Snake is the Anikin Sykwalker of MGS. He must experience this horrible pain in order to turn dark, to become Big Boss. So again like you said just because it has violence doesn't mean it's crap.

On the other hand, I think that a lot of games sell big numbers just because of the violence and chaos they portray. Rockstar clearly knows this, and they rarely release anything that isn't loaded with player-controlled, cold-blooded killing.

As for the "creativity" argument, how is making every game as gorey as you can creative? Video game violence has been DONE TO DEATH. There's a huge follow-the-leader mentality with respect to this right now. I'm sick of it, personally, and I don't think that putting naughty material in the games automatically makes them good games for an older crowd. I think it does just the opposite; kids will willingly pay to see titties and gore all over the place.

Making a more complicated or thought-provoking game is how the industry will "mature", but nobody seems too interested in doing that anymore. Blood and guts or a movie license. That's all the work that a lot of developers are willing to put into anything anymore.

I'm not going to condeme rockstar for there games because i really did like Vice City, but manhunt was shit. I agree with you that adult content doesn't make a good game. More complicated and complelling games are the future, but the developers need the creative freedom to do them how the please. Killer 7 is the best example. It's incredibly violent, but it's all stylied and it plays into the amazingly deep story. I'd trade 10,000 mahunt level crap gorefests, for just one more experience like i had playing killer 7.

I think we can agree that violence for the sake of violence is bad, but if it's not ratuitous then it's more acceptable.

[davepesc]

The Punisher originally received an AO rating from the ESRB and had to be toned down inorder to get an M despite the fact that the level of gore in the game was no worse than just about any slasher flick. I know this for a fact because interestinly enough an uncensor hack was released for the game that allowed the violence in it's true glory (Notice that it barely got any media attention?).

Is there a website with pics of the uncensored version? I'd love to see the carnage for myself and determine if it's any worse than what's been in M-rated games. I'm fascinated that a game managed to get an AO rating for violence alone.

-- Z.

http://www.gtagarage.com/mods/screens.php?id=28