NANOSTRAY

[ubersaurus]

With you, clearly.

Huh? Please explain.

It's an excellent shooter, and I'm sick of hearing reviewers tout how goddamn wonderful a crappy game like Ikaruga is and then rag on fun shooters like Nanostray, Trizeal, R-Type Final, or Border Down.

It's not just reviewers who are ragging on Nanostray. Check out the shmups.com thread cited above for similar complaints from the genre's hardcore fans.

I mean, in Galaga you can wipe out all the enemies while they're in formation and get farther in the game. If you want the high score, though, you're gonna wait for them to come down. This is limiting the gameplay, limiting your shoot time. In your view, what's the point?

Shmup design has evolved in the 24 years since Galaga, and shmups have figured out how to reward skillful players via methods less fussy and limiting than preventing them from firing their weapons.

In my view, the point is you're building up a higher score, and if you don't want to play that way, you certainly don't have to.

Shmups are all ABOUT earning a high score, hence the importance of a well-designed scoring system, hence the complaints about Nanostray's overly fussy system.

-- Z.

Well ok then, how many shooters reward you points for not using bombs? Bombs are, after all, a form of "subweapon" that you have limited ammunition for, like Nanostray's subweapons.

Border Down rewards you for picking your spots to fire your subweapon to get maximum score. You can't just fire the thing off whenever the hell you feel like it, energy level aside, if you want a good score. Further, you have to travel the red border to get the really good score bonuses. This makes the score hungry miss out on 2/3rds the game, but after an initial negative reaction, people seem to have warmed up to Border Down, even on that shmups site.

Zanac, a classic and fantastic shooter, would throw inordinate amounts of enemies at you the more you fired your main gun, and with limited ammo for most subweapons, you had to pick and choose your spots in that game too. Trizeal, a game that I've played the hell out of lately, throws so much shit at you once you power up completely that to get high scores, you again have to pick your spots and weapons to strengthen, especially once it comes down to grabbing the multiple-score icons.

Hell, even Soukyugurentai, as I remember, is more rewarding if you use your lockon lasers over the main gun. Why use the main gun then?

You act as though a shooter has never been made that didn't want you to be firing the entire time. It's a clear attempt to make a game that appeals to casual players and shmup fans, and I thought it came off pretty damn well.

[classicb]

The developers made some decisions and you'll either love it or hate it I guess. But what annoys me is when reviewers and people like you say that people who like this game only like it because they are starved for shooters. Which is not true if you're into importing for the PS2 which I'm sure you are with your new found knowledge of TATE.

"People like me"? Please explain what that's supposed to mean.

Here you go:

That's essentially what I said in my previous post. Hardcore shmuppers are such a tiny clique at this point that most of them will enjoy or force themselves to enjoy Nanostray's fussy scoring system, while gamers who play all genres won't.

This is the kind of crap I don't like. Why must you assume that if we like the game we are forcing are selves to do so.

As for shmup fans being starved for shooters, are you seriously debating that fewer and fewer shmups are being released each year (even taking imports into account)?

-- Z.

No I'm not. Just pointing out their are other great shooters out their for people to choose from.

BTW excellent job with those quotes from shmup.com Some of those quotes came from kids who just joined the boards.

[esquire]

Shmups are all ABOUT earning a high score, hence the importance of a well-designed scoring system, hence the complaints about Nanostray's overly fussy system.

-- Z.

Shmups are my favorite genre of games. I own many of them for several consoles, from the NES to XBOX, as well as handhelds - GB, GBC, GBA, NGPC, Lynx and DS. Now I don't consider myself a fanboy, snob or elite, but I can tell you that the score is the least of my concerns when playing Shmups. I'm more about the gameplay than concerning myself with uber scores.

Oh, and I love Nanostray. There's no way in hell it only deserves a 5.0. A 10? Certainly not. But it's better than a 5.0. I'd agree with a prior poster who said around 7.0 to 7.5.

[zmweasel]

Uber, you've cited several excellent examples of shmup design in which the player is rewarded for skillful and judicious use of weapons.

The problem with Nanostray is that it goes too far with its limitations on when and what the player can use in order to achieve high scores. It's a simple but significant difference.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Shmups are my favorite genre of games. I own many of them for several consoles, from the NES to XBOX, as well as handhelds - GB, GBC, GBA, NGPC, Lynx and DS. Now I don't consider myself a fanboy, snob or elite, but I can tell you that the score is the least of my concerns when playing Shmups. I'm more about the gameplay than concerning myself with uber scores.

High scores are a fundamental aspect of shmup gameplay. Why else would you play a shmup? Just to shoot things? There are thousands of non-shmups that allow you to scratch that itch, most with better eye candy than any traditional shmup can provide. Playing a shmup without caring about the score is like playing an RPG without caring about the story.

-- Z.

[RCM]

Shmups are my favorite genre of games. I own many of them for several consoles, from the NES to XBOX, as well as handhelds - GB, GBC, GBA, NGPC, Lynx and DS. Now I don't consider myself a fanboy, snob or elite, but I can tell you that the score is the least of my concerns when playing Shmups. I'm more about the gameplay than concerning myself with uber scores.

High scores are a fundamental aspect of shmup gameplay. Why else would you play a shmup? Just to shoot things? There are thousands of non-shmups that allow you to scratch that itch, most with better eye candy than any traditional shmup can provide. Playing a shmup without caring about the score is like playing an RPG without caring about the story.

-- Z.

My goal with all the shmups I love is to play until I can beat them without using a continue. High scores don't mean much to me.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[classicb]

Shmups are my favorite genre of games. I own many of them for several consoles, from the NES to XBOX, as well as handhelds - GB, GBC, GBA, NGPC, Lynx and DS. Now I don't consider myself a fanboy, snob or elite, but I can tell you that the score is the least of my concerns when playing Shmups. I'm more about the gameplay than concerning myself with uber scores.

High scores are a fundamental aspect of shmup gameplay. Why else would you play a shmup? Just to shoot things? There are thousands of non-shmups that allow you to scratch that itch, most with better eye candy than any traditional shmup can provide. Playing a shmup without caring about the score is like playing an RPG without caring about the story.

-- Z.

what a stupid thing to say. now you're telling people why they should like the game. I like going for high scores but I certainly don't expect everyone too.

[zmweasel]

This is the kind of crap I don't like. Why must you assume that if we like the game we are forcing are selves to do so.

A shmup fan, by his (and it's always his) very nature, is inclined to look for the positive aspects of any game in his chosen genre. He'll take a mediocre shooter like Nanostray over a very good game in most other genres. RPG fans, a hardcore clique with which I have much experience, are much the same, but they're fortunate enough to have many more choices in the modern game biz.

Shmups (like 2D fighters) designed themselves into the Oozle-Woozle ghetto, and so shmup fans don't have the option of being picky. The people at shmups.com are bitching about Nanostray, but they're still playing it, because what other North American shmups have recently shipped?

BTW excellent job with those quotes from shmup.com Some of those quotes came from kids who just joined the boards.

As I stated in my earlier post, I could have cited several dozen more negative comments, many of which I'm sure would meet your standard for "experienced" shmup fans.

Also, why do you discount the opinion of a forum newbie? Just because someone is new to shmups.com doesn't discount his opinion, if it's an educated one.

Finally, since you're the one who cited that thread to begin with, why are you complaining that I'm quoting from it? You said it was a "great thread."

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

what a stupid thing to say. now you're telling people why they should like the game. I like going for high scores but I certainly don't expect everyone too.

I simply question why anyone would play a shmup if not for the high-score aspect.

To shoot things? As stated above, you can get that fix from many, many, many games that aren't constrained by the limitations of shmup design.

For eye candy? As stated above, you can get that fix from many, many, many other games that aren't constrained by the limitations of shmup design.

(It's because of these limitations that the shmup genre has fallen out of favor, just as the point-and-click adventure was supplanted by games that incorporated puzzle-solving and story-telling aspects while ditching the cumbersome elements of point-and-click design.)

If you're playing a shmup, you're playing it because you enjoy the puzzle-ish element of memorizing patterns ("until I can beat them without using a continue," as Rob stated above) and earning a high score, just as I play pinball because I enjoy the physics of the game and earning a high score.

-- Z.

[classicb]

Do you even own this game? All I want to know now is how much time you've spent playing this game?

[Gamereviewgod]

I simply question why anyone would play a shmup if not for the high-score aspect.

To shoot things? As stated above, you can get that fix from many, many, many games that aren't constrained by the limitations of shmup design.

For eye candy? As stated above, you can get that fix from many, many, many other games that aren't constrained by the limitations of shmup design.

I'm not a high score person. I missed that era by a few years, and grew up with the NES. Hence, I'm playing a shooter to see if I can weave in between shots, feel the tension, and beat the game. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's the reason why so many people have stuck with the genre. I HATE the "new" shooters like Mars Matrix hwever. That's just dumb luck for the most part.

I loved Nanostray. It's a solid, albeit short, shooter. I've replayed it quite a bit. The difficulty is high enough to keep me busy. I thought the scoring system was well implemented and unique. There's an extra layer there for people who enjoy a challenge like that. It's fair in it's challenge, and taking out those big ships provides a great feeling.

The perspective and the "blocked path" per se didn't bother me at all. They also didn't bother me in Raystorm and Raycrisis either. I'm sure there are other shooters like that (didn't Sipheed do it on the Sega CD too?). It's neccesary to keep everything in perspective, and it creates depth. I can't say it's ever caused me to die. Had Classic never mentioned it, I doubt I would have even noticed it.

[ManciGames]

I'm not a high score person. I missed that era by a few years, and grew up with the NES. Hence, I'm playing a shooter to see if I can weave in between shots, feel the tension, and beat the game.

Same here, and I actually lived through that era. Heck even in the "high score" era, I was still just trying to "beat the game". I remember playing Asteroids for the 2600 for hours on end trying to flip the score. Sure, I had to get a high score to do that, but that wasn't really my goal.

I never really thought of it that way until now. Interesting...

[ubersaurus]

Uber, you've cited several excellent examples of shmup design in which the player is rewarded for skillful and judicious use of weapons.

The problem with Nanostray is that it goes too far with its limitations on when and what the player can use in order to achieve high scores. It's a simple but significant difference.

-- Z.

The problem is that said idea of what's "too far" is pure opinion. I thought it was perfectly fine, myself. The game doesn't "punish" you for going apeshit with the secondary weapons on the bosses, which is really the only time when I ever found myself using them. They make the levels easier, but you can still get through regardless. I mean, you lose points using the coin magnet, which not using makes the game much harder than not using the secondaries.

I'm just seeing it as a nitpick that gets way too much griping, like the perspective, or the touch screen(which, I'd like to point out, never seemed to be a problem to me).

[Zigfried]

This sounds less like a legitimate complaint against the reviewers and more like a chip on your shoulder.

I came into this thread looking for opinions (the game was recommended to me by a friend) and my opinion is heading steadily south. I'm hearing a lot of "good despite" and "but", as opposed to lists of reasons why the game rocks. Insulting one of my favorite shooters doesn't help convince me, either.

For me, it's exactly as zmweasel said: I enjoy even sub-par shooters (like Truxton, R-Type Final, and Trizeal) because I love the genre... but I've got plenty of other things to spend my money on, so given the choice, I'd rather stick to excellence (like Ikaruga, Border Down, and ESPgaluda).

[MrSmiley381]

Is this game in such low supply? I think the local Babbage's has some, if not a crapton. I'll ask for you guys, OK? Anyone that wants one, I'm sure I could get it for you. Remember: LIMITED SUPPLY. I just hope it's not *TOO* mediocre.

[ManciGames]

Is this game in such low supply? I think the local Babbage's has some, if not a crapton. I'll ask for you guys, OK? Anyone that wants one, I'm sure I could get it for you. Remember: LIMITED SUPPLY. I just hope it's not *TOO* mediocre.

I have yet to see it in any "big box" store like Best Buy or Wal-Mart. Haven't been in the local EB lately though...

[ubersaurus]

It's an excellent shooter, and I'm sick of hearing reviewers tout how goddamn wonderful a crappy game like Ikaruga is and then rag on fun shooters like Nanostray, Trizeal, R-Type Final, or Border Down.

This sounds less like a legitimate complaint against the reviewers and more like a chip on your shoulder.

I came into this thread looking for opinions (the game was recommended to me by a friend) and my opinion is heading steadily south. I'm hearing a lot of "good despite" and "but", as opposed to lists of reasons why the game rocks. Insulting one of my favorite shooters doesn't help convince me, either.

For me, it's exactly as zmweasel said: I enjoy even sub-par shooters (like Truxton, R-Type Final, and Trizeal) because I love the genre... but I've got plenty of other things to spend my money on, so given the choice, I'd rather stick to excellence (like Ikaruga, Border Down, and ESPgaluda).

//Zig

I'd say it's more an opinion. I was bored with Ikaruga in under a week-the level designs just weren't cutting it. Whereas Nanostray, Trizeal, RTF, these are all games I've gone back to and played over and over.

It's not so much a chip on my shoulder as it is my inability to comprehend why ANYONE would pick Ikaruga over a number of other great shooters out there. The only thing I can think of is pure fanboyism for whatever Treasure cranks out, and that can't possibly account for everybody who's said it's good.

[calthaer]

I picked this one up even though I don't yet own a DS - played it with a friend's DS. Very cool, and I love it. Agreed in that the touchscreen weapon switch is nothing short of annoying, but overall is a good shmup.

[Jasoco]

It's not so much a chip on my shoulder as it is my inability to comprehend why ANYONE would pick Ikaruga over a number of other great shooters out there. The only thing I can think of is pure fanboyism for whatever Treasure cranks out, and that can't possibly account for everybody who's said it's good.

Ikaruga is a very fun and kick-ass game. I like it for how it is pulled off. The cinematics. The graphics. It's a very good game.

I don't know who the fuck Treasure is, nor do I care who makes a game. I play what's fun and Ikaruga is fun. You need to take a chill pill. Shouting "Fanboy!" at someone who likes a game you don't is pure ignorance and stupidity.

That aside, I haven't seen this game anywhere yet. I really want it though. So I'll keep looking.

Speaking of Ikaruga, the day it's ported to the PSP is the day I die happy.

[ubersaurus]

It's not so much a chip on my shoulder as it is my inability to comprehend why ANYONE would pick Ikaruga over a number of other great shooters out there. The only thing I can think of is pure fanboyism for whatever Treasure cranks out, and that can't possibly account for everybody who's said it's good.

Ikaruga is a very fun and kick-ass game. I like it for how it is pulled off. The cinematics. The graphics. It's a very good game.

I don't know who the fuck Treasure is, nor do I care who makes a game. I play what's fun and Ikaruga is fun. You need to take a chill pill. Shouting "Fanboy!" at someone who likes a game you don't is pure ignorance and stupidity.

That aside, I haven't seen this game anywhere yet. I really want it though. So I'll keep looking.

Speaking of Ikaruga, the day it's ported to the PSP is the day I die happy.

Have you checked gamestop recently? 2 of the stores I've been to recently have Nanostray on their shelves-it's not all the gamestops around here, so I don't know how representative it is, but they're pretty much the only ones I go to.

If you'll note I know that not everyone who likes Ikaruga is a Treasure fanboy, but I've seen my fair share, at stores, conventions, internet sites, magazines, etc. Yes, they did good games like Astro Boy, Wario World, Gunstar Heroes, Bangai-O, and Gradius V(A fantastic shooter that they pulled off). I just can't count that game as one I've enjoyed as much as I have other shooters. Offhand I can think of R-Type Final, Starfox 64, Galactic Attack, and Zanac as shooters that I played for an incredible amount of time when I got the game, and a fair amount since. Not so with that one, however.

I may be in the minority, but I've never been known for being quiet