Has a Dreamcast Half-Life proto ever been dumped? I know they've been found.
I was really looking forward to that game.
Half-Life Proto
Has a Dreamcast Half-Life proto ever been dumped? I know they've been found.
I was really looking forward to that game.
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A few people have it, and they generally arent the type of people who would dump it.
That's really unfortunate. I can't understand why people want to keep proto games all to themselves, instead of sharing them with the gaming community...
Well for one thing, Sierra is still very much in business and wouldn't appreciate people making copies of copyrighted games that they're not suppose to have. These aren't protos by long dead companies for 20 year old systems, these are recent games.
Beisdes, people can do what they want with their protos. If they want to pay obscene amounts of money for a game and keep it to themsleves it's their right. Why should you get the game for free after they paid all that money for it?
Tempest
Well, those are valid points. That is only one side of the coin though.
If you're prepared to open that can of worms, I will too...
Although some prototypes are from "dead" companies, others are not. Take Activision for example. It's nice and cozy to say that 20 year old prototypes don't hurt anyone. But Activision has been around since the VCS days, and they still actively publish those games. ( See Activision Classics, PlayStation ) Therefore, dumping an Activision proto would be tantamount to a modern day prototype.
Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, the statute of limitations on copyrights is 75 years. That means if there's one guy in a basement somewhere that has the remnants of one of those "dead" companies and he wants to start publishing protos that belong to said company, that's his prerogative. Companies even buy the rights to unpublished games, it's a great niche market. Look at Songbird and Telegames.
Technically, proto buyers CAN do what they want with their protos. I believe it is a much greater thing to "share the wealth" and benefit the whole community. I follow prototypes enthusiastically, and it was a great joy to me to finally be able to play games like Star Fox 2, NWC '90, and Ewok Adventure. It's not so much a matter of getting the game for free, as you say, as had they been commercially released, I would have bought them. I never had that chance. I actually already have Half-Life here for PS2. However, I would like to play the DC version also because it is different.
If collectors want to pay obscene amounts of money, hey, it's their money. Nonetheless, when the only copy is held by a zealous collector who (usually) is just afraid it will drop in monetary value if it is dumped, that is saddening to me. People like that will never truly appreciate the game. Cartridge games can even bitrot and be lost PERMANENTLY, due to electron leakage in EPROMs. Thus, not only has the collector's trophy been rendered completely useless, but the gamers lose out forever, so it's EVERYONE'S loss.
Speaking of legality though, one thing proto collectors fail to notice is that merely owning a prototype in and of itself is probably illegal. It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and condemn the "rom beggars", but the fact is that most of these prototypes were basically stolen, taken from the company and not returned. Just look at Atari protos, they are often called lab LOANERS. As in, they were supposed to be RETURNED. The collectors did not steal them themselves, true, but you can be prosecuted in the US for even purchasing stolen property.
The older protos may be easier to feel better about if the companies have gone out of business. But for instance, I've heard DreamTR picked up a Legend of Zelda prototype recently. Zelda is still an massively popular series, and The Legend of Zelda was almost rereleased on GBC, proving it is still a viable and active game to Nintendo. Not to mention Nintendo is known for its high security and aggressive protection of licenses. How would they feel if they found out DreamTR had one of their protos? Probably pretty miffed. Plus, I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet a few bucks if they decided they wanted it back, and it went to court, no matter how much he paid for it he would have to return it to them. The bottom line is that you don't really "own" a prototype unless you coded it yourself and have the rights to the license, you merely possess it.
This may not exactly make me any friends here, but I feel VERY strongly on this issue.
Which is probably why people who own the Half Life proto are keeping thier mouths shut. Sierra can't come after you if they don't know you own it. If someone were to go and dump and release it, it probably wouldn't be too long before someone blabbed who it was or it was traced back to someone, and then they're in trouble.
While it's true that owning prototypes probably isn't legal, it's only the current ones that companies care about. I don't think Inforgrames is going to waste money coming after me becuase I own 20 year old prototypes that they techincally own the rights to. But if someone is passing around a proto that's only a few years old, they'll probably raise a fuss.
I never said that I was against releasing prototypes. Lord knows I appreciate it when people dump and make prototypes available, but I don't agree with people who seem to think it's a collectors duty and resposibility to dump and release a prototype. It's the owners choice whether they want to or not. There's no law that says they must do so. I also don't like it when people hold that against a collector. In my book if you don't want to release a prototype that's fine, I don't think any less of you for choosing not to do so.
Tempest
Your statement seems to indicate that you have a low opinion of spending such large ammounts on Protos and it's obviously something you would never do, yet you expect the individuals paying such large ammounts (to get something which would in most cases NEVER be seen outside the developers offices/studios if it weren't for said individuals being willing to pay so much to get them) to throw their money away and give copies of the game to people like yourself who think them stupid for spending so much money.Originally Posted by Richter Belmont
Fact of the matter is that these people were willing to pay so much money and in many cases put so much time and effort into finding the Proto (a lot of work often goes into even getting hold of these things), once they have it, it's theirs to do with as they want, if they want to upload it (and risk prosecution for distribution) then that's their choice, but you certainly can't blame them if they don't want to throw away both their money and all the effort they put into getting the proto.
However, I do always find it interesting that the people condemning said individuals while preaching about sharing the wealth with the community and how pathetic it is if they don't, are also the people who aren't willing to spend so much of their hard earned cash for the sake of the community and often ridicule others for spending so much money to attain the item that they themselves were not willing to pay the price for.
If the owner of the Proto wants to upload it, that's great and is a very admirable and generous thing to do, but as you have so kindly point out the legalities of owning such an item, the owners certainly can't be blamed for choosing to protect both their investment and themselves (after all not only would they be exposing themselves to increased risk of being caught, they would also be adding the far more serious charge of distribution to their name).
What a load of crap.. what on earth is the logic for this argument, most collectors who pay for these items are people who LOVE games, they spend so much because they want to play the game and because they feel they would get great enjoyment from it because it's their passion.
I can't even fathom your reasoning behind this, most of these people will appreciate it far more than you could ever understand because they wanted to play the game so much that they put the effort into getting the game and because they truely do understand what they have and how much it took just to have the chance to play it... but you somehow assume that because you download games from the net you appreciate them more than those who gave so much to get them.. :crazyeyes:
j
I know someone who has it, on another forum. I guess it would be safe for him to copy it and give it out to his most trusted friends.
EVERY copy of half life DC was numbered. they kept track of who they gave each one to.
Id like to take this opportunity to say "FUCK YOU" to Sierra which has nothing to do with this topic.
<@Carey85> I-75 is the second busiest freeway in the country behind I-95
<@NE146> u r
well, if it isn't the same old produmping/antidumping argument that we have all heard 500 billion times.. i agree with tempest on this one. whoever said that bitrot will cause the games to be lost permanently and every one loses, you are retarded. no collector is dumb enough to just let it rot away. if they don't want it released to the public, they have a back-up made for themselves.
Of course I'd hope they would at least back the prototype up if only for their private use. Even if people don't want to release a proto, pictures are always nice...
Tempest
I guess I'll just try to take these one point at a time:
Tempest:
"Which is probably why people who own the Half Life proto are keeping thier mouths shut. Sierra can't come after you if they don't know you own it."
Fair enough. If these people just want to avoid legal trouble, I guess that's understandable. My true grievance is with people who hoard up protos and sit on them indefinitely.
"There's no law that says they must do so. I also don't like it when people hold that against a collector. In my book if you don't want to release a prototype that's fine, I don't think any less of you for choosing not to do so."
No, there isn't. My personal opinion, however, is that it is selfish. An analogy off the top of my head, but it would be like if someone bought an undiscovered Van Gogh and refused to allow it to be publicly displayed and merely posted some fuzzy JPGs on the net. Sure, it's theirs and their choice, but the art world is deprived because of that choice. This is how I feel.
I do sometimes think a bit less of some of them, to be quite honest, because they have the hypocritical attitude that others are grungy rom beggars, when they are involved in activities just as, if not more illegal! The "oh-so-horrible warez mongers looking for a fix" are no worse! NO WORSE! Perhaps some people are trying very hard to assuage guilty consciences and just don't like the intrusion!
NvrMore:
"Your statement seems to indicate that you have a low opinion of spending such large ammounts on Protos and it's obviously something you would never do, yet you expect the individuals paying such large ammounts to throw their money away and give copies of the game to people like yourself who think them stupid for spending so much money.
Fact of the matter is that these people were willing to pay so much money and in many cases put so much time and effort into finding the Proto... once they have it, it's theirs to do with as they want, if they want to upload it (and risk prosecution for distribution) then that's their choice, but you certainly can't blame them if they don't want to throw away both their money and all the effort they put into getting the proto."
I don't necessarily have a low opinion of those who spend a lot of money on protos. I don't think they are stupid either. If I had the money, resources, and connections they do, I might be trying to pick up protos as well.
What I don't like is when people act like just because they spend money on a game, it puts them in a different league, that anyone else who might be interested in the game and didn't spend fistfuls of cash on it is just a lowlife rom beggar. Why, there's no way they could possibly be interested in it for historical, nostalgic, and technical reasons!
For new protos, "throwing away money and effort" is a solid point. But what about old hat protos that are still being sat on? Tempest himself said that he doesn't think companies want to "waste money coming after me becuase I own 20 year old prototypes that they techincally own the rights to". How about games like these then?
"I do always find it interesting that the people condemning said individuals while preaching about sharing the wealth with the community and how pathetic it is if they don't, are also the people who aren't willing to spend so much of their hard earned cash for the sake of the community"
If I had the kind of money to compete with the big leagues, I would. Prototypes that unreleased or are significantly different from the final release can sell for hundreds, even thousands each because of fervent collectors. Perhaps some wouldn't be around if it weren't for those collectors, true, but we would never know about them, would we? As a college student, I don't have that kind of income. And suffice it to say that there aren't a lot of prototype "connections" here in ALABAMA. I'd be lucky to even SEE a prototype here. When I get settled in a career and start bringing in some real money, I may just spend a little cash for the community. You can bet the farm I'll be getting in touch with some reputable dumpers if I do, too.
"What a load of crap.. what on earth is the logic for this argument, most collectors who pay for these items are people who LOVE games, they spend so much because they want to play the game and because they feel they would get great enjoyment from it because it's their passion."
No, not necessarily. Some people who happen across prototypes have modest to no interest in gaming, and they don't want it dumped because they are terrified it might lose value.
Plus, let's speak in the hypothetical for a moment... There is an individual who has a prototype, and there is no longer a serious danger of legal prosecution for it. Being such a passionate gamer, monetary value obviously means nothing to them, only love of the game, so what have they got to lose by dumping it so it can be digitally preserved and enjoyed by the world? They still possess the only real copy, the others are mere facsimiles.
"I can't even fathom your reasoning behind this, most of these people will appreciate it far more than you could ever understand because they wanted to play the game so much that they put the effort into getting the game and because they truely do understand what they have and how much it took just to have the chance to play it... but you somehow assume that because you download games from the net you appreciate them more than those who gave so much to get them.."
Far more than I could understand? You jump to large conclusions, sir. I don't assume that because I download games from the net, I appreciate them "so much more". A lot of collectors really do appreciate games. I am a collector myself.
I assume that I appreciate games because I've been playing them since I was old enough to drag a stool over to arcade games to reach the controls, and I spend nearly all of my free time and money on videogames. I know what a bitter struggle it is to get rare games. I scrimp, save, and bust my posterior scouring pawn shops, flea markets, unclaimed baggage, Ebay, and everything else I can utilize to find beloved games and fit them into my budget. While some people I know bought Chrono Trigger when it came out for $80 or MIB for $100, I searched pawn shops for years until I found a copy for $10. That's not to say that I don't ever buy new games, but I could never afford to have the collection I have if I didn't get the vast majority of them used or on clearance. I've done without and even gotten by on Ramen Noodles before so I could get games I wanted while they were available cheaply. I have been labeled as a videogame obsessist by my peers, because I eat, sleep, and breathe videogames. There are things you can lecture me on, but appreciation of games is NOT one of them. I treasure every game I have. Didn't mean to tell a life story, but so be it...
My reasoning is that, when I get a great new game, I can't wait to show and tell everyone who is interested. I want them to experience the joy and excitement of the game as well. Maybe I don't fathom why others would want to keep that all to themselves.
nesman85:
"well, if it isn't the same old produmping/antidumping argument that we have all heard 500 billion times.. i agree with tempest on this one. whoever said that bitrot will cause the games to be lost permanently and every one loses, you are retarded. no collector is dumb enough to just let it rot away. if they don't want it released to the public, they have a back-up made for themselves."
Sorry you feel that way on the dumping issue, but I guess you'll either have to ignore threads like this, or you'll just have to suffer. ^_^
I would contest the bitrot issue. Visit System Failure. Blackjax has an article all about it and what a danger it is. It's (luckily!) not pervasively and abhorrently common, but he mentions people who have already lost their protos to bitrot.
Ok as much as I love to debate this point, I'm packing for Vegas as we speak so I'm going to give my ultimate point of view on this subject and then I'm done with it.
First of all let me say that until you own a prototype that's unreleased or vastly different from the released version, you really can't understand why prototype collectors act like they do. It's one of those things you've got to experience first hand, otherwise your not getting the full picture. This isn't a slam against people who don't own prototypes; it's just something I found out first hand.
You see there's a certain mystique about owning a prototype that no one else has, you have something that makes your collection special. You've tracked down the seller, you've spent the money, and now you've got the prize. Having your prized prototype dumped and distributed can cause a number of things to happen:
1. The Original Prototype Loses Value - Once a rom has been distributed everyone and their mother now has a copy of your one of a kind prototype. So now when you go to sell it, people are less inclined to buy it since they can play it for free on an emulator. Sure people will still want to own the original, but the value isn't quite as high as it once was when the only way to play that game was to own the original prototype.
2. Copies Get Made - Sad but true. Once a rom for a prototype makes its rounds on the various Atari pages people begin to think, "How can I make money off of this?". Suddenly someone gets the bright idea to make reproductions of the prototype and start selling them online. So now there are hundreds of copies of your prototype floating around out there, somebody is getting rich, and your original prototype is starting to look less and less interesting.
3. Fake Prototypes Emerge - What's worse than reproductions being made of your prototype? How about fake lab loaners? Eventually someone out to make a quick buck gets the bright idea to make fake lab loaner copies of your prototype and start selling them on ebay (see Quadrun). So now there are dozens of fake lab loaners floating around and people start to wonder if your original prototype isn't one of them.
4. The $$$ Factor - Let's face it. Prototypes cost money. So now that you've plunked down X amount of dollars for a game, someone comes along and says "Hey give me a copy for free". They don't care that you may have busted the bank to get that prototype; they just know that you have it, they want it, and they want it for free. So now when you're a bit hesitant about having it dumped they begin to get indignant towards you, you have something they want and by not giving it to them you're being "selfish". If that guilt trip doesn't work, they start bringing up the "Collecting Community", and how it's your obligation as a member of this "community" to share the wealth. Failing that, they list you as a "Prototype Horder".
Now I'm not against people dumping their protos, I think it's great when people want to do that. But I can also understand why people don't want to, and I don't hold it against them. Prototypes are generally the ultimate Holy Grail of someone's collection, and if they want to keep it all to themselves that's their decision to make. They shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it. As long as they've had the game backed up I'm happy. If they post pictures of it and describe the gameplay a bit, then I'm even happier.
Let's face it, we're all collectors and for a collector what's better than owning something that no one else owns? I'm not into prototype collecting as an investment or for the money (if you are then your going to be disappointed with the results), I'm into prototype collecting because I enjoy prototypes. I enjoy discovering and posting information about them. But I also enjoy the elite feeling of owning a one of a kind item. If thinking like this makes me a greedy proto horder so be it. When and if I choose to release my prototypes it will be my decision and when I see fit.
Now don't go taking this the wrong way, the above comments weren't directed at anybody specifically or anyone responding to this thread. They're based off of my observations and experiences after many years of prototype collecting. Feel free to disagree.
Tempest
I know it wasn't addressed to me but I just have to deal with this first..
No, the Proto owner's problem is that all the "greedy ROM Beggars" throw this self rigeous crap about sharing with the community and condemn them for not giving them a free copy of the game which they themselves critisize the owner for buying and themselves don't wnat to pay for. The owners know what they're doing and they know the legalities of it, the difference is that the owners were willing to expend the effort and money to get what they wanted.
"Might" being the defining point in that statement...
Sadly, that's because 95% of the people attacking them for not sharing it are indeed just lowlife ROM beggars who expect to be given whatever they want. Again it goes back to the point that said people are happy to critisize the owners for the effort and money they put into getting the Proto, but at the same time claim some degree of interest which entitles them to the game.
That's a strange (and no offence, but completely meaningless) argument, you switch from making a point of the cost to the owner right over to the legalities of owning a game without addressing the financial matters that you first brought up.
In terms of financial loss and wasted effort, regardless of the age of the game, dumping said ROM would still carry the same cost if it had never been released before.
Legally, yes there is less risk in dumping a 20 year old game than their is a recently developed one. But this in no way distracts from the above point of personal loss to the owner, which ultimately makes it their choice if they want to make such a sacrifice.
Your original argument was against those people who owned a copy of the HL Proto but wouldn't dump it, since then you have pointed out the legalities of their owning and acquiring such an item and indeed condemned them for such, yet your problem with them is that you want them to dump the game and you call them selfish for not doing so even though doing such would increase the risk of their getting caught and would require them to commit the far greater offence of distribution.
Hypocrisy is a poor thing to build your argument on.
Yes we would. Using the source of this topic as a basis, one hell of a lot of people knew about the DC HL project and because of their either being in the industry or knowing someone who is (and so on.. the grapevine goes on and on and on and on...), they also knew that it was close to completion.
Again, the prices that collectors are willing to pay are often the reason Protos escape into the public. Your point seems to be that if you don't know anyone has it then everything is ok but because you know someone else has something you want, it's not fair that you can't have it too
Again with the mights, mays and maybes. It's easy to say you would do something, anyone can do that but actually doing it is a totally different matter.
Good for you if you do, I've already said it's a very generous and admirable thing to do should such an owner do it.
In a few cases yes, this is sadly true, but look around this board, the majority of collectors are gamers through and through, it might not fit the picture you have of things but this is the reality of it.
Again, their property, their choice, their reasons are their own whether it be holding onto some special little feeling that their effort entitles them to be the only ones to enjoy such a game or the mere fact that they're sick of the self-rigeous protests of so many spoiled ROM community members.
No, I make a point that you assume too much about the people who buy and own these Protos. Your opinions and perception of these people is heavily clouded to say the least, and you make the arrogant assumption that you are a more passionate/avid gamer than they are based on nothing more than your own misconception of them all being Lex Luthor esq comic book villains intent on depriving the good and innocent ROM community of what you have decided they are rightfully entitled to.
(No offence intended by the following snipping, I'm just trying to keep the post size down)
Yes you love games and enjoy playing them, I get that but it doesn't distract from the arrogance of your statement claiming that you are automatically able to appreciate a game more than the person who owns it. That's ridiculous and laughable to say the least, some of these collectors have been gaming since they were as young as you were when you started and to make matters worse many were probably born quite a while before you.
Try not to make such assumptions, they will always be wrong.
actually
hmm
Oh, one thing I forgot to say earlier. For all those people who are afraid that a game will never get released because the owner of the "one and only" rom won't dump it, take heart. One of a Kind prototypes have a funny way of becoming Five, Ten, and even Fifteen of a Kind over the years. You see, only very rarely will there be only one prototype of a game in existance (I can only think of 2 or 3 examples), usually there others that just haven't been discovered yet.
Take Ewok Adventure for example. For years there was only one known prototype, but over the years another one was discovered (a PAL one), and then another NTSC version surfaced and it got dumped. Same deal with 5200 Tempest, Asteroids, and Super Pac-Man. For a long time they were thought to be One of a Kinds and then suddenly POOF! there were at least 5 of each and they got dumped. The monopoly on a prototype is a very short one, it's only a matter of time before another one turns up.
Tempest
NvrMore:
It's not necessarily a matter of want. Proto hounds often live in geographically advantageous areas, have company connections, and disposable income. NWC '90 goes for "four figures", I've heard. That is the higher end of the spectrum, but good protos do usually at LEAST sell for a couple hundred bucks a pop.
If I could afford to compete with that, I would. I said that before. It's not a matter of willingness to put forth effort. I'd dig through smelly dumpsters and play golf with the development team if I thought there was a chance to get a decent proto. But it's quite discouraging when the prices have escalated to a level beyond the means of the the average person and those with connections can avoid competition altogether. So it appears what it comes down to in the end is money, making proto collecting like the "country club" of video gaming.
Ok, so what am I supposed to say? I swear on Aunt Hilda's grave I'll liberate every proto from every dusty collector shelf and company storage and draft a team of ROM dumpers?
Let me clarify. I may marry, have a family, buy a house, contract a rare strain of influenza and have astronomical medical bills, who knows. I don't know how my financial situation will be, but if I get in a situation where I can cover the responsibilities and have enough extra to afford it, I WILL pursue prototypes. Is that good enough?
Perhaps so. Those 95% are highly regrettable, and understandably troublesome.
But what about the 5% who would truly enjoy the game? I don't stalk collectors and demand they dump a game, but I can't help but feel sorrow when I find out that a unique game is in the hands of someone who will never let anyone else experience it.
There are similarly stoic and financially capable collectors who DO share games, and I can't help but wish one of them had gotten ahold of it instead. I would even have no problem whatsoever with a scenario like a company/individual making a small amount of copies to sell to enthusiasts who want to play it. That happens some of the time, and it would be great if it happened all the time.
I said you made a valid point. I see the point in risking legal prosecution, that is actually an excellent argument for not dumping newer unreleased/proto games. If they want to wait until the dangers of getting caught and hurting their contacts have passed, then I can certainly respect that. People who will still continue to keep games to themselves many years after the fact are the kind who frustrate me. Perhaps I let too much frustration color my second post, for that I am sorry. When I asked a yes or no question and saw the statement that the people who have it aren't dumpers, it struck a note.
That aside, the definition of selfish:
"1.) Concerned chiefly or only with oneself"
So guess what? Consider it carefully. If you intentionally elect to be a non-dumper and indefinitely cloister proto games, YOU ARE SELFISH, textbook definition! End of story! People can disagree with me all they want, but disputing this will have to be taken up with Webster's.
I guess it's just me, but I don't see sharing the game as a "personal loss" unless you're in it for the money. I see it as a joyous occasion.
I am not really condemning the possession of prototypes per se, (for heaven's sake, I've expressed a HIGH INTEREST in proto collecting) the legality of them is merely a point to show the high-horse-riders that from a legal standpoint their hands are just as dirty as the browbeaten ROM piraters.
We knew about the Half-Life project because the industry magazines ran articles and previews, and Sierra took out ADS for the game, and it was reported to the press that the game was 98% complete at cancellation. Logically, it's not a great mental leap to realize there must be some have been some protos if it was that far in development.
What I meant was protos that are never officially announced or are only speculated to have reached any serious development stage would not be known about.
My opinions ARE biased. No argument there. So are yours. When you say I am arrogant because I think I automatically appreciate it more, you are twisting my words. When did I say I automatically appreciated games more than all the other collectors? Never, I'm not that haughty. I cited a specific example of zealot collectors, individuals who have seemingly limitless pocketbooks and a habit of attempting to buy up one of a kinds and then sitting on them because largely, or at least in part, they fear a loss of monetary value for their trophy. Does that constitute all collectors? Certainly not. Plus, I said it saddened me, not "I am the Superman of protos".
Have I not made it a point to say "some" in my statements? Even so, I have stated I am expressing my OPINIONS. Last time I checked, America is still free and you have the right to disagree, which you are exercising.
The ROM community is not innocent, my point is neither are proto collectors. Some holier-than-thou love to stand on the crutch that ROMs are piracy and they abhor piracy. So piracy is bad, but theft/purchasing stolen protos isn't? They are virtually the same legally, and that is my point. I can't help something like when I was born, but I have been interested in gaming for basically my entire life. Can't do much better, I'm afraid.
To sum it up, I don't hate collectors or automatically believe I am superior. They are in a sense, my peers. I do hate certain attitudes though. If you clear away all the strings attached to proto collecting and just look at the results, an undumped proto is a lost proto save one person. I lament this not only for myself but other enthusiasts, because the technology is there to preserve and share it. In the end, it's just one less game the world can enjoy. To me, that matters more than anything else, and if a love for games and desire for the world to have access to these historical treasures makes me "self-righteous", then so be it.
Tempest:
I know you said you're going to Vegas, but I'm replying anyway. ^_^
Yes, but those all focus on money, not a love for the game itself. You yourself said you aren't in it for "investment or for the money (if you are then your going to be disappointed with the results), I'm into prototype collecting because I enjoy prototypes." Wouldn't money be something only Lex Luthor would be concerned with? :wink: After all, monetary value only matters if you are going to sell it. If one slaves over getting a proto only to later sell it, it wasn't exactly a Holy Grail to them, was it?
Besides, even if it's dumped and copied to the four winds, you still own the only original copy. It's still a one of a kind. The others are fakes. Isn't that what is important? Fake lab loaners are regrettable, but I would think them pretty rare.
I mean, I could probably buy a reprint of Action Comics #1, and it would be a reasonably exact replica. But would it be the same as owning the original? Never. Playing a rom will never truly be like the real thing. I have MAME ROMs, but if I see those games in an arcade, I still play them. Why? It's the REAL DEAL. Proto ROMs are the best most of us can hope for though.
If money is all that is the problem, why not let us take up a collection for dumping to ease their "financial burden"? Isn't that what happened with EarthBound Zero?
Fortunately, yes, one of a kinds don't always stay that way. That is what gives me hope. The release of Ewok Adventure was a celebration day for me. Not because I could get the game for free.Because I could PLAY IT MYSELF and personally reclaim a lost bit of history.
richter belmont:
"If I could afford to compete with that, I would. I said that before. It's not a matter of willingness to put forth effort. I'd dig through smelly dumpsters and play golf with the development team if I thought there was a chance to get a decent proto. But it's quite discouraging when the prices have escalated to a level beyond the means of the the average person and those with connections can avoid competition altogether. So it appears what it comes down to in the end is money, making proto collecting like the "country club" of video gaming."
you tell us that whole story about getting by on ramen noodles to buy games you wanted and blah blah blah... then you go and say that paragraph up there. some people may consider you hardcore for eating nothing but noodles so you can buy a game you want.........IF ITS CHEAP ENOUGH you said! you may think you appreciate games more than most people.. and maybe you do.. but not even close to as much as some people on this board. you say you don't buy any protos because you can't afford them..however you say you do want them. if you were THAT hardcore you would find a way to buy one. even if it meant eating ramen noodles for a month or two again(which by the way isn't tough at all. i have done it myself too).
hey, im new to this forum- but you know what i like to do with my undumped unreleased protos? i like to smash em with a hammer...
its pretty cool actually, since ive got so much money i can do that kind of thing. poor people like ricter will never have protos- because i buy them all and break them!!!!
then i actually sell the videos of me smashing them on the newsgroups!!!!!
19.95 for the video!!!! thats the closest youll ever come to getting them poor boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
*please excuse my sarcastic sense of humor~*
willie
Quick note: Sorry about the occasional quote editing, it's just to cut down post size, not to diminish or distract from what you wrote.
NWC '90 Gold cart actually goes for between $4000 - $6000 and is very much the top end of the spectrum disregarding incredibly rare hardware and related software, so yes your point is valid in that many of these items do indeed cost a damn lot of money however making such a point isn't beneficial to your argument in that it only serves to further highlight the great cost to the collector and the notably huge loss s/he would face in releasing the game.
Yes and said collectors either get past that discouragement and keep trying for what they want (often at considerable personal expense, which they can often seldom afford), or they accept that they can't afford that item and get over it.
Yes those with the right connections do have better access to these items and can often avoid the financial competition. But there is no basis for your argument in either respect, if they had to compete you still wouldn't have the Proto because you can't afford it and because they ahve the connection they get to have protos whoch may never have escaped, so again it comes down to this poor attitude that it doesn't bother you if no-one has it, but if someone has something you don't, it's not fair because you want it.
There's that clouded attitude again that all collectors just get something to let it rot on a shelf, get over it, 95% of them are gamers and buy them because of such.
To clarify my point, it's easy to say you would do something and it's easy to make idle promises, people do it every day. But there are always excuses as to why you haven't or you can't or you might not be able to as if such excuses are entirely unique to you and your situation so it's always something you say you WILL do but you never actually do.
The things you face are seldom unique and are not solely limited to the poor striving ROM seekers, collectors also have medical bills (those in certain countries), living expenses, families to support, car payments, random and cruel incidents which prove financially taxiing etc.
Welcome to another of life's cruel lessons.. being screwed by the actions of others. In this case the majority ruin it for the minority, it's harsh but you're anger is being misdirected and should be focussed on said 95% of the community you represent, although I imagine you focus your attention on the collectors because they're an easier target.
No you're more subtle, you berate and condemn them for not giving you what you want under a somewhat self-righteous mask of flawed morals and a self proclaimed greater appreciation for gaming.
Yes and good on them for doing so, but their choosing do so in no way sets a precident that choosing not to do so is wrong. It is simply that individuals choice as to what they do with their property.
The problem with that scenario is that the collector has no way of knowing if they can trust the people they give the copies to not to distribute the copies that they are given, else the final result and loss to the collector is the same as if they had distributed the game themself.
Thus the collector can only do this with people whom they know they can trust completely to abide by their wishes and not distrute the game any further, which excludes the veritable mass of people who would likely come to them claiming to be one of these enthusiasts for the sake of getting the game and even most of the actaul enthusuasts themselves who would likely disregard the collectors wishes and betray their trust for the sake of "sharing with the community".
Thank you, nice to agree on something. However your agreement on this does actually eliminate the original basis of this topic.
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DC HL proto owners, it has been agreed.. YOU ARE NOT EVIL
DISCLAIMER: Declaration void outside of Retrogaming Roundtable V2.0 forum and adjoining or associated properties and locations.
Declaration only valid within undisclosed time period of between 5 and 75 years, subject to moral and political shifts within the ROM
community and/or changes within the complex and twisted legal structure of the gaming industry.
************************************************** ***
Oh good it's dictionary definition time..
The problem with using dictionary definitions in the context you're currently using them is that they can be largely generalised to apply to anything regardless of other factors which should be considered when applying them.
However using it in the manner which you seem to want to, you're an incredibly selfish individual if, as you have previously stated, you decide to start a family. Doing such a thing would be selfish by the simplified definition you use because you would be pursuing your own interests and needs rather than devoting your time and money to buying Proto's to share with the "community". Worse still, your condemnation and berating those who have proto's and won't give you them is also selfish because you are chiefly concerned with getting a copy of the game for yourself and playing hero by distributing it to the "community" without concern for the cost to the original owner.
Hell, by the simplified definition you're using, you're selfish because you spend money on games when there are other people who need that money more. So when you spend that money that you went hungry to save, you are pursuing your own interests rather than sharing it with others.
Indeed, using the definition in such a laughably simplified manner means that you're every bit as selfish as the collectors, probably more so because you're making demands of others in order to pursue your own interests.
Yes and your argument was that if they didn't escape into other people's hands then we wouldn't know about them and wouldn't miss them. However because of magaznes and people having contacts with other's in the industry, the information regarding Proto's leaks out and people come to learn of their existence.
Your problem only arises when you know someone else has something you want and you get into this whole "it's not fair, I want that!" mentality.
I don't think I need to bring the quote back, but you specifically stated that a collector with an unreleased proto would never truly appreciate it, which you and I know was direct implication that you would appreciate said proto far more than them.
No, you cited a generalisation based on your own clouded view of collectors, without stating any quantifiers upon which to disqualify anyone who is a collector of such items from said generalisation, not only that but you were happy to maintain such a generalisation until pressed to define the specifics of your statement.
Indeed you are free to express your opinions, however berting and condemning others because they wont give you what you want is an entirely differing matter.
Not quite, posession of stolen goods is one thing but distribution is considerably more serious. Owning a proto and having a ROM without owning the original copy are essentially the same, however with ROMs there's the added crime of distribution and whereas owning a proto of a recent game isn't srictly legal in most cases (not all) it doesn't harm the industry unlike the distibution and ownership of a recent game in data format.
Not really, an unreleased proto was never going to fall into the hands of the public anyway so there is no actual loss, they were never going to get to play it anyway so nothing has been taken from them.
Just because someone else has something you want doesn't mean that you have any right to it.
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