The ColecoVision Supergame Module- Good or Bad?

[Aswald]

Remember it? Remember how it could play "100 screens of Donkey Kong?" How eager we were?

But if you think back to the prototype games, they weren't really any better than the standard CV games. Donkey Kong didn't add anything to the first 3 screens. The scrolling in Buck Rogers was as bad as before...

But, was it even really necessary? Lord of the Dungeon didn't need it. The "improved" games on it didn't originally even use the ColecoVision's full "normal" abilities; even the 4-screen version of Donkey Kong Junior only uses 16 out of the 32K ROM. Steamroller, in spite of having over 2 dozen mazes and all of its features, doesn't need one. Gateway to Apshai, with 792 huge mazes and all of its monsters and features, uses but 12K ROM (according to the box it came in).

In other words, the "Super" games would simply be games that the company should've gotten right the first time on the regular ColecoVision.


Now, real "super games" would've been a different story. The games at Raccoon Lad's website are MSX games; these are, for all practical purposes, ColecoVision games, but with more memory. That memory difference is what prevents relatively straightforward MSX-to-ColecoVision conversions. If a number of such games, say, such as the magnificent Salamander or Nemesis 3, required lots more memory, then it would've been more economical for the consumer to buy a memory-adding "Supergame Module," and then games for it, rather than souped-up cartridges for the ColecoVision, which would've cost more after a few purchases (remember $45.00 Zaxxon?).

What do you think- yae or nay? (note- of course, this is a "what DID you want" type question...)

[wberdan]

we pretty much did get a reject version of it anyway didnt we, the adam tape drive? thank god the super game module didnt come out, it probably would have been a disaster- magnetic media just is not a great video game storage format.. plus the laod times would have been a pain in the ass.. i used to get upset at the 10 second colecovision screen- imagine having to wait god knows how long for the SGM to load up?
i wonder what landfill that sucker is buried in...

willie

[Zaxxon]

Aswald,
You don't know what you're talking about. You can't say what the SGM games would've been like based on the stripped down 4 screen DK jr ROM for CV. Who knows if they would've gone with a tape drive for storage anyway. By the time it would've been released, ROM prices had fallen allowing larger cart sizes and elimating the need for a tape format. I will try and post a link to a disk file I have for Super Donkey Kong Junior. It's the REAL 160k version originally made for the SGM, not the 24-32k? version you've played. You will need to run them on the ADAMEM emulator. Sure, Buck Rogers blows as a game period, but where have you seen a better home version than the ADAM version? There isn't one AFAIK. So Gateway to Apshai has a lot of screens. You can do that if you don't use any ROM space for good graphics.

[wberdan]

when is someone going to make a dvd drive for the colecovision?

willie

[Jorpho]

The famous delay when loading ColecoVision games was built into the console's BIOS and has nothing to do with load times, if I'm not mistaken.

Wasn't Coleco planning to release a proper home version of Dragon's Lair for the Super Game module (presumably something better than that strange Adam version)? If it was to have that kind of capability, surely it would have been worthwhile.
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GRANNY ANAL

[wberdan]

right exactly, bios deal..
and dragons lair came out for the tape drive. ive never played it, but im pretty sure its nothing like the arcade.. i cant imagine the SGM would have been anything other than a slightly cooler and more durable tape drive

willie

[opcode]

Uhm... like many things, SGM would have had good points and week points.
IMHO the best feature wouldn’t have been the drive per si but the extra RAM that it was going to need. I mean the CV has just 1KB of RAM, so Coleco would have needed to include a RAM expansion with SGM. Lets say they were going to include 32KB. This RAM would be used to load the game program, but would be used to expand work memory as well. It would allow more complex games. Also, some kinds of complex graphics (like vectors) would be produced using this extra RAM as buffer space.
The drive would allow saving besides just game loading. This way a game would save your best scores.
Game would be cheaper, as magnetic tape isn’t as expansive as solid-state memory.
About the drive quality, I have heard there were better tape solutions in the time than the one Coleco ended choosing, so...

Cons:
ROM bank switching is more effective in many cases than multi-loaded tape games.
Magnetic tape durability is questionable.
Load time is a concert sometimes.

Overall I think the SGM would have been a nice addition to the CV system. Maybe if Coleco had concentrated on gaming instead creating a home computer the CV would have had a feasible future. But hardware is nothing if you don't make good games that use it...

Eduardo

[Aswald]

Zaxxon, the point I was trying to make is that the Supergame Module, for all of its hype, was NOT needed for most of the Supergames. My 4-Screen Donkey Kong Junior cartridge IS complete (obviously). It only uses 16K ROM. So it was well within the "normal" ColecoVision's capacity to get it right without one. The graphics and such could've been improved without a module, too. In fact, all it did was boost memory.

In other words, any kind of expansion should only be done when the "normal" system's limits have been reached. Since most of the games that came out for the ColecoVision were within its "normal" limits, why didn't they simply get it right the first time, rather than trying to make us buy the module and its games? Now, if you were talking about massive-memory games, like 128K ROM games, then yes. But not for Donkey Kong, for crying out loud! Besides, have you seen Opcode's version of Donkey Kong so far? Assuming only that single game on a cartridge, he doesn't need a "module" or such to get it right.

Remember, I was around in those days. When I first saw the photos of the "super games," my first question was "they're kidding, right?" With all of the hype, I was expecting near arcade-perfection, at the very least. It wasn't anywhere close to that. And by the way, they kept talking about a "magnetic storage media, sort of wafer thin"- NOT "tapes."

[Jorpho]

Well, I suppose the saveable high scores on the ADAM were nice, at least. That wasn't such a common feature back then. And you could even print them out!
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Bowel Disorders Forums

[wberdan]

generally, if it is magnetic storage media it is a 'tape'/// even if theyd called it a wafer, it actually would have been a cassette of some kind running on spooled tape.

[Zaxxon]

Zaxxon, the point I was trying to make is that the Supergame Module, for all of its hype, was NOT needed fpr most of the Supergames. My 4-Screen Donkey Kong Junior cartridge IS complete (obviously). It only uses 16K ROM. So it was well within the "normal" ColecoVision's capacity to get it right without one."
>>

The 4 screen DKjr ROM I have is 32k. I don't know what you're playing. Maybe it's 16k when zipped. Unzipped it's 32k. I don't know how you can consider it complete. The original SGM/ADAM version is 5 screens, not 4, has intermissions and music you don't have and titles screens and high score screen and saving ability. Do you have the Mario's pie factory stage in your version?

"The graphics and such could've been improved without a module, too. In fact, all it did was boost memory. "
>>
Memory AND storage capacity. It would've been totally necessary if they had any plans to compete with the NES.

"In other words, any kind of expansion should only be done when the "normal" system's limits have been reached. Since most of the games that came out for the ColecoVision were within its "normal" limits, why didn't they simply get it right the first time, rather than trying to make us buy the module and its games? Now, if you were talking about massive-memory games, like 128K ROM games, then yes. But not for Donkey Kong, for crying out loud!
>
For a Super DK that is arcade exact, yes you would need it.


" Besides, have you seen Opcode's version of Donkey Kong so far?
>>
No, I haven't. Have you? Has he released a demo I don't know about?

"Assuming only that single game on a cartridge, he doesn't need a "module" or such to get it right.
>

Well I've seen him write many times that he is working on a way of adding additional memory to carts plus figuring out a way to do bank-switching to exceed the 32k cart limit, thus adding to the CV's memory and cart program sizes. Isn't that essentially doing the same thing as the SGM.

"Remember, I was around in those days.
>>
So was I. I owned a CV and an ADAM with every game made and a bunch of unreleased stuff.

"When I first saw the photos of the "super games," my first question was "they're kidding, right?" With all of the hype, I was expecting near arcade-perfection, at the very least. It wasn't anywhere close to that. And by the way, they kept talking about a "magnetic storage media, sort of wafer thin"- NOT "tapes."

Sort of like a 3 1/2 computer disk? What would've been wrong with that. They're cheap, fast, stable and high capacity for the time.

[Aswald]

Zaxxon, you're sort of missing my point here.

What I had against the Supergame Module was that it was, technically, a rip-off.

O.K, Donkey Kong Jr. comes out for the ColecoVision. Back in those days, it was about 35 dollars, plus tax (and I live in New York State).

Now, a short time later, Coleco says "Oh, looky here! A SUPERGAME version of that same game! Cool, isn't it?"

So, you go out and buy the Supergame Module (which, if the other add-ons were any indication, would've run at least 70 dollars, probably more, but let's just say...). You buy Super Donkey Kong Jr., let's just say 20 dollars (plus tax for it all).

Now, if you want, you can divide the cost of the module into the games you buy for it. Say you buy 10 games. That adds 7 dollars per game.

So, so far, for Donkey Kong Jr., you've spent 35+20+7 dollars, a total of 62 dollars for the game.

Now consider this alternative scenario:

Sean Kelly wrote in his review for Super Donkey Kong that the pack-in game used only 1/2 of the ColecoVision's available memory. That's 16K. In fact, most ColecoVision games were scaled down in this fashion, and Donkey Kong Jr. was no exception. Fact is, I HAVE a 4-screen version of Donkey Kong. Jr. on the ColecoVision. On cartridge. It exists. No fancy add-ons or chips. So, obviously, it could've been done in 1983, and with some tweaking and extra work, it could've looked even better, within the ColecoVision's normal memory.

Let's assume that Coleco did this in 1983. We'll even assume that this would add 5 dollars to the cost of the cartridge.

So for 40 dollars you have a complete version of Donkey Kong Jr.; 22 dollars less than you paid in the previous scenario, and without the hassle of the module and its media (which, if it was any sort of a tape cassette, would have been vulnerable to wear and any other number of damaging problems that cartridges aren't). If you STILL wanted the "super" version, then fine, but those of us who didn't shouldn't have been forced to spend the extra money to get a complete version, if it was possible to program it on a regular system. I'm not interested in extra screens, by the way, I just want a complete arcade-to-home translation.

The Supergame module also did NOT enhance any of the ColecoVision's abilities, except for memory. Granted, it's an important thing (think the MSX Nemesis 3), but it means that the benefits are limited in all other areas. Fancier screens can be drawn with extra memory, true, but such things take more processing power, so they will cause slow-down. The flickering problem with the sprites is still there. 16 colors are still the limit. Sound is not enhanced.

In short, every limitation of the ColecoVision is still there, except you have more memory. That, and that alone, is the only practical benefit. So if a game can be done within the normal 32K ROM limit, then the Supergame Module accomplishes absolutely nothing useful.

And that was the problem- the Supergames were pretty much all games that could've been done better on the regular ColecoVision. We were being made to spend more and go through all the extra bother for something that could've been done right in the first place.


My reference to Gateway to Apshai- you completely missed my point here. It is a game with many monsters, spells, power-ups (armor, weapons, shields, etc.), and more. It has 8 levels, each with 99 dungeons, or a total of 792 really big dungeons.
And all within 12K ROM.
Granted, the graphics are pathetic, but that's partly programming. Granted, to improve them would take more "definitions," which means more memory, but even if that was a full 1/3 more, that would STILL be only 16K, or 1/2 the normal limit. Imagine an expanded version, using a full 32K ROM- now do you see my point?

Lord of the Dungeon does NOT need a module.

Worse still, at least several of the games were still poor. The scrolling in Buck Rogers was still awful, even though Moonsweeper had excellent scrolling. It wasn't a matter of modules, but rather programming. Steamroller, by Coleco's standards, probably would've been a "super" game. But obviously it wasn't necessary to use a module. We the consumer are the winners there.

As for Donkey Kong- yes, Opcode knows how to expand the ColecoVision's memory, but if he'd been told "Program Donkey Kong for the ColecoVision. You can use the full 32K ROM, try to make it a gameplay-complete version," then yes, he COULD do it- 4 screens, all gaming elements (e.g. fireballs in Barrel screen, springs in the Elevator screen). If the intermissions were to be excluded, well, we didn't care in 1982 for the pack-in version, I doubt we'd have complained about an otherwise-complete version.


In short, any game that could've been done right on a regular ColecoVision should've been done right. Supergame games should have been just that: games that really WERE "super" games and practically beyond the normal ColecoVision, such as, say, R-Type, or whatever. And if they were on cartridge, as they are said to have been on MSX computers (which is sort of what the module would've turned the ColecoVision into), all the better!

[Zaxxon]

Now, a short time later, Coleco says "Oh, looky here! A SUPERGAME version of that same game! Cool, isn't it?"

It wasn't a short time later. The SG versions for ADAM didn't come out before the Adam was released in late '84-85 IIRC.

Now consider this alternative scenario:

Sean Kelly wrote in his review for Super Donkey Kong that the pack-in game used only 1/2 of the ColecoVision's available memory. That's 16K.

I know.

In fact, most ColecoVision games were scaled down in this fashion, and Donkey Kong Jr. was no exception. Fact is, I HAVE a 4-screen version of Donkey Kong. Jr. on the ColecoVision. On cartridge. It exists.

No shit. So do I. So do a bunch of people. Anyone can download it from DP's CV emu page.

No fancy add-ons or chips. So, obviously, it could've been done in 1983, and with some tweaking and extra work, it could've looked even better, within the ColecoVision's normal memory.

What could've been done? They still weren't able to fit the whole game on the cart. DK Jr. arcade version is 5 screens, not 4. The CV hack is only 4 screens, minus intermissions and title screens etc. The Adam/SGM version had all 5 screen so the version you have is not complete.

Let's assume that Coleco did this in 1983. We'll even assume that this would add 5 dollars to the cost of the cartridge.

Ha! When I could find stores that carried CV games they were always expensive. TRU average price was $50. I doubt that it would only be $5 more.

So for 40 dollars you have a complete version of Donkey Kong Jr.; 22 dollars less than you paid in the previous scenario, and without the hassle of the module and its media (which, if it was any sort of a tape cassette, would have been vulnerable to wear and any other number of damaging problems that cartridges aren't). If you STILL wanted the "super" version, then fine, but those of us who didn't shouldn't have been forced to spend the extra money to get a complete version, if it was possible to program it on a regular system. I'm not interested in extra screens, by the way, I just want a complete arcade-to-home translation.

The 5th screen isn't an "extra" screen. You say you want a complete arcade to home translation but then say you don't want to pay to have all the screens the arcade game did. Which is it? I don't see how if Coleco released the SGM they would be forcing you to buy anything. I don't recall them forcing anyone to buy the driving module or the 2600 adapter.

The Supergame module also did NOT enhance any of the ColecoVision's abilities, except for memory. The flickering problem with the sprites is still there. 16 colors are still the limit. Sound is not enhanced.

I don't know this. No one anywhere has an actual SGM to look at. They could've added an additional sound chip and video chip. The CV's sound and video chips have pins that allow audio and video to pass right through them and can overlay sprites onto video. They could've greatly enhanced the capabilities while keeping it backwards compatible.

So if a game can be done within the normal 32K ROM limit, then the Supergame Module accomplishes absolutely nothing useful.

If SGM games could be done in 32k then you're right, but they can't. An arcade accurate DK jr can't be done in 32k. The version you and I both have on cart is 32k and it's missing a lot.

And that was the problem- the Supergames were pretty much all games that could've been done better on the regular ColecoVision.

Have you actually played ANY of these games your talking about? Have you played Dragon's Lair, Super Front Line, Super Zaxxon, Super DK or Jr(not the cart versions), Jeopardy or Family Fued?

My reference to Gateway to Apshai- you completely missed my point here. It is a game with many monsters, spells, power-ups (armor, weapons, shields, etc.), and more. It has 8 levels, each with 99 dungeons, or a total of 792 really big dungeons.
And all within 12K ROM.
Granted, the graphics are pathetic, but that's partly programming. Granted, to improve them would take more "definitions," which means more memory, but even if that was a full 1/3 more, that would STILL be only 16K, or 1/2 the normal limit. Imagine an expanded version, using a full 32K ROM- now do you see my point?

Yeah, I got your point the first time. It's not surprising to me that the game was only 12k. It looked it.

Lord of the Dungeon does NOT need a module.

BTW, I bought LOTD finally and it's on it's way. I'll be the other person here with a copy.

Worse still, at least several of the games were still poor.

There weren't even "several" games so I don't know what your referring to. What are the bad ones you've played? You're talking about a few first generation games?

[wberdan]

i agree with zaxxon that at least where i lived colecovision games were expensive. IIRC zaxxon (the game) sold around $60 here before the crash.

simply put- the SGM could have had much larger games than the colecovision ever could have... but then again, the ADAM computer did the same thing with its tape drive. you can only pack so much into 32k- sure you can make many games nearly arcade perfect with 32k, but you're still goind to compromise with certain games.

also, i just have a feeling the SGM would have sold for more than 70.. but maybe... it seems like a device that would have cost 150 or so.. but who knows.

zaxxon, in my opinion you havnt missed anything by not having lord of the dungeon yet. i also have a copy and its not my cup of tea.


willie

[Aswald]

Zaxxon, you keep saying that the arcade version of Donkey Kong Junior has 5 screens, but in all of the times I played it or watched pros who could make a game last and last, I never once saw a 5th screen.

Even the Killer List Of Videogames website says that it only had 4 screens.

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?...=D&game_id=890


As do my videogame magazines from that era.

And I still have a couple of boxes from that time, when those games just came out. 35 dollars, except for Zaxxon.


And as for those super games you mentioned- no, I haven't played them- and neither have you. The supergame games may well have been different; we'll never know for sure. Even if they WERE great, that's not the point I was making. The ADAM computer threw everything off; Coleco just slapped them together in a warehouse by inexperienced people- no sterile environment, no protection against static electricity (they actually used hastily-assembeled plywood tables). This is why so many were defective. Dragon's Lair was supposed to have been originally done on a laserdisc module that never really materialized. In any case, most of the games appeared on the ColecoVision first; and they could've been done better- module or no module.


The point is, you only come up with a "supergame" module for games that cannot possibly be done on a normal system. Anything else should use the system's full capabilities.

[wberdan]

i think zaxxon is referring to the "mario's kitchen" screen on the adam tape drive game as the 5th screen- is that right?
That was a special screen you can unlock on the tape

willie