U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[play2win]

When this issue comes up Sonic, Spiderman, and Strider are always mentioned but what about Golden Axe Warrior? Sometimes I see it listed as just having the bar code added to the Euro release like the rest. Are those instances just wrong or is it slightly different than the other three?

No, Golden Axe Warrior had the UPC sticker (with additional Trademark notifications) slapped over the Euro UPC as well. There were several other games Sega did this for, most of them late SMS releases. Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic are only mentioned most frequently because they were the last releases, in that respective order, and they are the rarest and most valuable.

[mikesides]

As far as I know there are only 4 games with the sticker bar code: Golden Axe Warrior, Sonic, Spider-Man, and Strider.

[megasdkirby]

Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic are only mentioned most frequently because they were the last releases, in that respective order, and they are the rarest and most valuable.

With the exception of Sonic, those two really aren't that are. Strider can usually be found relatively cheap (less than $20), while Spiderman is a bit more expensive (got mine for around $35).

Unless people all of a sudden got stupidly insane and started bidding ridiculously high amounts for those two games, they aren't that rare...more uncommon. Buster Douglas I would consider rare, though.

[The 1 2 P]

As far as I know there are only 4 games with the sticker bar code: Golden Axe Warrior, Sonic, Spider-Man, and Strider.

Wait a minute....Golden Axe Warrior with the barcode is worth some money???

[Sunnyvale]

Yeah, I get that you don't like comparing two generations of consoles.

Sure, there really wasn't anything comparable to a licensed/unlicensed distinction for the Atari 2600. No one is disputing that.

There's still no logical reason to object to Bojay adding to the argument that European DS games should be included as part of the NA set because they had an American UPC sticker added.

Ok, I wasn't objecting to Bojay saying that, I'm saying it's not remotely the same thing. UPC's aren't the same as they were 20 years ago. For example, go buy Halo 3 from Best Buy, and then take it to Wal Mart without a reciept. The UPC will tell them you didn't get it here. If you ordered something from the Microsoft Company Store, it got a different UPC and Part #. Same art, disc, manual, case... Different UPC code. Do you see where this is going? If you standardize lists with one set of rules, you're gonna have a massive US list for every 6th and 7th gen console. Or, we can accept that it was different in 1991 than it is now, UPC's included. Check it out. Go grab your stack o XBOX games, hop on Ebay, check their catalog, and see how often your UPC's don't match with the catalog. Don't mean the entire catalog is fucked (well, it is, but for different reasons), it means there are several different UPC's for every game nowadays.

Apples don't equal oranges.

[TonyTheTiger]

While I get where you're coming from with that, I think you're overstating the issue. UPCs today may not be what they were 20 years ago (I'm not sure about this, just taking your word on it). But we have evidence of what UPCs did mean back then. In a word, nothing.

And bringing up Atari opens a can of worms that wasn't really an issue as far as Sonic goes. Yes, the days before official licensing schemes are in a league of their own. And, let's be honest, they aren't without their own little quirks. If Air Raid were made today and distributed in the same quantity nobody would give a shit. It's just another example of something the gaming community as a whole seems to suffer from in most respects, namely older is better.

But at least with Atari people are up front about what they're cataloging. Everybody knows that there was little in the way of "official" games. And if a game plays on the Atari and is older than a brand new homebrew then it's welcomed in along with everything else. It's at least internally consistent in that respect. Meanwhile, more modern systems, SMS included, the lists are written with more clarity. The line between "official" releases vs. unlicensed vs. homebrew is much better defined. So we should at least expect that same level of clarity with regard to Sonic and other games/merchandise in a similar situation.

And we're not necessarily just talking about games released yesterday. Sonic came out in 1991. Radiant Silvergun was 1998. That's not exactly a long time. I don't think there was any revolution going on between the tail end of the SMS and the twilight years of the Saturn. I posted how UPC codes don't really matter, like, at all for the GBA. And it goes back at least as far as the NES. The European Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC as the American one. So if Sega slapped a new UPC on Sonic it really doesn't seem like evidence they were doing it to create an American version. And for Radiant Silvergun to not have a new UPC apparently doesn't exempt it from possibly being an "American release" in that case. I just don't see the smoking gun.

[theclaw]

Whateve the case is, the Sonic UPC has become viewed as that cataclysmically rare. Aren't there more cart-only copies of Air Raid remaining today than this UPC?

[Sunnyvale]

While I get where you're coming from with that, I think you're overstating the issue. UPCs today may not be what they were 20 years ago (I'm not sure about this, just taking your word on it). But we have evidence of what UPCs did mean back then. In a word, nothing.

And bringing up Atari opens a can of worms that wasn't really an issue as far as Sonic goes. Yes, the days before official licensing schemes are in a league of their own. And, let's be honest, they aren't without their own little quirks. If Air Raid were made today and distributed in the same quantity nobody would give a shit. It's just another example of something the gaming community as a whole seems to suffer from in most respects, namely older is better.

But at least with Atari people are up front about what they're cataloging. Everybody knows that there was little in the way of "official" games. And if a game plays on the Atari and is older than a brand new homebrew then it's welcomed in along with everything else. It's at least internally consistent in that respect. Meanwhile, more modern systems, SMS included, the lists are written with more clarity. The line between "official" releases vs. unlicensed vs. homebrew is much better defined. So we should at least expect that same level of clarity with regard to Sonic and other games/merchandise in a similar situation.

And we're not necessarily just talking about games released yesterday. Sonic came out in 1991. Radiant Silvergun was 1998. That's not exactly a long time. I don't think there was any revolution going on between the tail end of the SMS and the twilight years of the Saturn. I posted how UPC codes don't really matter, like, at all for the GBA. And it goes back at least as far as the NES. The European Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC as the American one. So if Sega slapped a new UPC on Sonic it really doesn't seem like evidence they were doing it to create an American version. And for Radiant Silvergun to not have a new UPC apparently doesn't exempt it from possibly being an "American release" in that case. I just don't see the smoking gun.

I'm not a big XBOX collector, but it's patendly obvious on the XBOX releases. Different UPC's all over the place. I do know all the games I have with the 'Microsoft Company Store' sticker have a different UPC than the 'official' release, but I don't see a seperate list for them. I think that most of us don't care because the sticker is goddam ugly, and there's no other difference. Who cares if it came from Microsoft? But if it made it a US release, the only available version of said game as a US release, it would be a diffent story.

I agree UPC's meant less back then than now. But the SMS releases are unique in that this UPC designates a game as a US release. If the stickersw weren't rsare, none of this would matter, I think we all agree on this. If it didn't say 'Sold in the USA' it wouldn't matter, again, we all agree here. Where we diverge is you and a few others think that this is just an oddity, not an 'official' release. Which is where I point out this isn't today. Things are different now on many things involving video game releases, and what m,akes the cut for the list. Each system should be taken on it's own, IMO, and history kept in mind, not 'rules-lawyer' mentalities.

If we had only the sticker and no adverts, no people who worked for Sega, no people who remember the game in stores, then it would be different. Just a sticker. But we have all of those things. And 3 other games that have the same history. Do you see them popping up from the eclectic Ebay sellers from anywhere but the US? (video game sellers don't count. We buy shit from all over.) It's pretty straightforward it seems.

[TonyTheTiger]

But even if we all accept Sonic as a U.S. game, what's not straightforward is why other releases that got essentially the same treatment are not considered U.S. games. I think it's somewhat of a stretch to count Sonic as a U.S. game. But as a stretch it's not that big a deal. While I may disagree I can at least, perhaps begrudgingly, accept it as a weird quirk of the SMS and move on. I've probably accepted worse.

What I can't accept is how people are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand where Sonic as a U.S. game is ok but Radiant Silvergun is crazy talk despite all the blocks being in the same place. We know Sonic got the haphazard release it did because the SMS was on it's deathbed in America. When Radiant Silvergun was sold here the Saturn was also essentially dead. We know Sonic was sold at retail in some capacity. Radiant Silvergun was also sold at retail. We know that Sonic's publisher had a hand in its U.S. distribution. Radiant Silvergun's publisher also certainly had a hand in its distribution. We know Sonic, despite being the European game, gets counted as a U.S. game because there was no other specifically American release. Radiant Silvergun also did not have any other specifically American release.

The only difference (and I don't think this is debatable, it really is the only difference) is the UPC code. But we already know that it's perfectly fine for a game to get a foreign release and retain the same UPC, which means Radiant Silvergun's lack of a separate UPC does not discount it. So, again, why not Radiant Silvergun?

If you think I'm aiming for a reductio ad absurdum then you'd be right. Because I think everybody looks at Radiant Silvergun and figures it always "felt" like an import. I think so, too. I really don't think it qualifies as an American game. But it's so blatantly similar to Sonic that if one counts as American then by extension the other does too.

[Gameguy]

Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases. It's like the Music Machine record, when people thought it came with the game it used to sell for $100. When people realized it's unrelated it became worthless. That's about the only reason I can think of that's making people consider this Euro release as a US release, they don't want their copies to become worthless. There's a big difference between $5 and $1000 for a minor variant.

[dgdgagdae]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!

[theclaw]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!

The sticker wholly in and of itself, disregarding any other factors, holds extreme scarcity to where it'd still be worthy of some value. Even if not associated with the SMS or Sonic. You can't just go buy this UPC whenever you'd like.

[TRM]

Wait, since when did American games receive packaging in Dutch?!?!

[TonyTheTiger]

So Gamestop sold Radiant Silvergun, I'm reading in every other post, and now Tony is mad that SMS collectors want to pay $1000 for a variant of Sonic? Is that about right?

Um, no? Did you even read the thread? Because you're attributing something to me when I've said the exact opposite.

Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases.

Well, that's pretty much what I figure should happen as it makes the most sense. But if people continue to vehemently insist that Sonic + UPC = American I'm willing to concede since stranger things have happened. What I'm not willing to concede, though, is their imaginary line that separates Sonic from every other release just like it. I think the line needs to go. Of course if they do that then it will show just how absurd the whole thing is. Which is why I think the line is there to begin with, because without it there's no real way to justify Sonic without coming off as cuckoo.

[portnoyd]

You people are exactly why these forums are fucking worthless now.

[TonyTheTiger]

In case you haven't noticed, we've been having a perfectly pleasant conversation about a particular topic of interest, with many different people saying their piece. And it's going to continue. You'll have to realize eventually that you're really not that important. No hate. Just letting you know that, seriously, you're not that important.

[Sunnyvale]

In case you haven't noticed, we've been having a perfectly pleasant conversation about a particular topic of interest, with many different people saying their piece. And it's going to continue.

Here here.


As for Radiant Silvergun, does it have anything that distinguishes a Euro copy from a NTSC? I honestly don't know. If not, that's why there's not a craze over the US release.

And Gameguy, I hate to sound the ass (or be the one to say this), but Canadian releases don't garner the attention that US ones do. I'm not going to dip one toe into the waters of why that is, but that's how it is. That's why the Canadian releases don't get the bucks for a weird sticker.

[davidbrit2]

You people are exactly why these forums are fucking worthless now.

This is why I only buy VGA-graded UPC stickers.

[understatement]

Still nobody seemed to comment on the points that I made. There's an easy way to fix this, and this should be done for all those other games like Strider that just had a barcode slapped on.

1. Edit the European listing to add "European copies were also distributed in the US".

2. Delete US entry for game entirely.

That's all that's done for Canadian versions, I see no reason why this game should be entered differently when it's released the same way as those other Euro releases. It's like the Music Machine record, when people thought it came with the game it used to sell for $100. When people realized it's unrelated it became worthless. That's about the only reason I can think of that's making people consider this Euro release as a US release, they don't want their copies to become worthless. There's a big difference between $5 and $1000 for a minor variant.

I don’t think you could remove the UPC games from the US list because they were not sold in Europe with the UPC stickers! So if anything you would have to say in the US list that they are Euro games with a US UPC sticker. Even if you did that I don’t think it would drop the price it’s just like the EarthBound controversy it’s all about supply and demand.

Sonic without UPS sticker: supply = common and demand = low thus price reflects this.
Sonic with UPS sticker: supply = rare and demand = mid to high thus price reflects this.

I understand what Tony is trying to say but it’s a moot point as there is a way to tell Sonic U.S. from Sonic U.k. while there is no way to tell Radiant Silvergun Japan from the ones sold in the U.S.

It’s the same with NAM-1975 for Neo-Geo the Euro version has black marker all over the exposed woman and the U.S. does not but there’s not much difference in price as it’s about 50/50 with marked and unmarked but if there was only 10% unmarked and 90% had markings I think you would see the same kind of price difference.

Here here.


As for Radiant Silvergun, does it have anything that distinguishes a Euro copy from a NTSC? I honestly don't know. If not, that's why there's not a craze over the US release.

And Gameguy, I hate to sound the ass (or be the one to say this), but Canadian releases don't garner the attention that US ones do. I'm not going to dip one toe into the waters of why that is, but that's how it is. That's why the Canadian releases don't get the bucks for a weird sticker.

Radiant Silvergun is Japan only for the Saturn with no difference from the ones sold over here thus I think you had to get one of the unlocking keys for the Saturn to play it the only difference would be the receipt they got and if that’s the case I have the rarest copy of Dragon Ball GT: Final Bout there is with my Jap copy and its U.S. receipt.

[Gameguy]

Clearly, SMS collectors in general, and a couple in this thread in particular, have decided that this particular version of this particular game is worth enough to them that they will pay what others believe are exorbitant prices to get the item. Why do we need 8 pages of argument against them doing this? Isn't that a lot of what this hobby is? As a comparison, there are people who will pay upwards of $10,000 for a gold NWC cartridge. I don't need to hear how that's different than Sonic with a UPC sticker, the point is that some things are more valuable to some folks than to others. That's what collecting is!

It can still be a rare/valuable variant, but it shouldn't be required for a complete US set. It's like the 3 screw/5 screw NES variants, you shouldn't need all versions of a game to have a complete collection.

I don’t think you could remove the UPC games from the US list because they were not sold in Europe with the UPC stickers!

But from the one actual Canadian variant in the DP Guide;

Description: This is the only Canadian release that wasn't just the US or European version with an extra UPC sticker, and easily identified by the fact that it credits Irwin Electronics (the Canadian SMS distributor) on the front cover. Originally distributed as a pack-in with Canadian systems.

That seems to imply that the Canadian releases have extra stickers too, yet they don't get a separate listing. There still can be a difference in value between variants since Canadian variants aren't that valuable, but they should be classified the same way in the rarity guide. It seems that these UPC sticker games should just get a mention in the Euro sections of the games and that's it.