I for one would think it would be unfortunate if they produce a well constructed unit that works well with a modern HDTV yet still all but forces us to be tethered with a controller cable since the included wireless controller is so poorly done.Originally Posted by YoshiM
Last edited by Leo_A; 10-20-2013 at 06:16 AM.
I liked the look too and after listening a podcast with a pretty knowledgable person that took it apart and praised the construction, I got one. Unfortunately, after using it my cartridges started to smell like burning plastic.
The company started going downhill so I traded for some console mod work rather than attempt another machine.
But I loved the look....and that arcade joystick.
You don't get it. You are a liar and only add BS to threads. I don't take your shit personal, I just see you as useless and negative. Reading most of your posts leads me to believe DP would be a better place without you.
As far as your apology, your excuses make it hollow and worthless. Take ownership for yourself and your many mistakes....
You will not be around for long, so I'm not too worried about it ..... enjoy yourself while it lasts.
Yet another youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkT...tyNJnjPw-2co7g
Wow, i didn't know that playing roms had legal ramifications?
so all those Powerpaks and flash carts are somewhat illegal?
I thought you could own roms of games you own the cartridge.
In another note, besides some exceptions, Digitpress has been the forum with the best response towards the announcement of the retron and my kickstarter.
In other forums it was a bunch of thread crapping, Im impressed; Thanks guys.
No. Ability to play ROMs is not illegal. Downloading/Trading/Selling/Etc ROMs is.
Do not agree. Is ugly as fuck.
To me, that's like saying elephant shit is is more pleasant than donkey shit. Either way, you've just got shit.
A reprogramable multicart is no more illegal than eprom burners, CD burners, DVD burners, etc. As long as no active patents are infringed (And there are none for most cartridge based systems due to the march of time beyond perhaps some for the GBA) or copyrights (Which are still in force), it's fine.
Last edited by Leo_A; 10-20-2013 at 06:07 AM.
Function over form every single time.
The RetroN 4 (edit: RetroN 5, whatever it is now) reminds me of the Disturbed remake of Genesis' "Land of Confusion." It even has the same kind of cheap cel shaded look to it...
It's not clear to me yet if RetroN 4 has any analog parts, whether it can output analog RGB, or what kind of emulation (it most assuredly isn't using original CPUs or any kind of derivatives of them) it is using - FPGA, CPU-based, or whatever. I'm not sure whether it will be close enough to the real thing to run all the special demos and so on, for example.
Copyright laws of most countries allow individuals to create back up copies of software they own for their own personal use. It is techincally illegal to download ROMs that someone else ripped, even if you own the original copy. In this case, both you and the distributor are breaking the law. It is also illegal to download ROMs of games you don't own. The loophole is that flashcarts themselves are not illegal because they do not contain any ROMs until the end user puts them on.
All that said, the issue of ROMs is more of a moral issue than a legal one. 99% of the time, these kinds of laws are not enforced, and most people consider it a victimless crime to download retro games as for the most part, the original developers and publishers aren't making any more money. Download services like the Virtual Console skew this somewhat, but again it's mostly a moral question of if it's right to download a ROM of an old game that's on a download service rather than a legal/illegal question.
Personally, I feel that once a game reaches a certain age it ought to be public domain, and people should be able to download what they want much like what happens with books, music and film. I feel strongly about piracy of new games that are on the market because sales lost take food off the table of developers. However, when it comes to games older than ~7 years, that's no longer the case.
Hyperkin hasn't said anything and I doubt they will until it's released and people take a look inside. However, my guess is that the Retron5 will be essentially a computer that has cartridge support. There are several clues that lead me to this conclusion:
720p video output. Analog RGB signals, even when converted into digital progressive scan, can produce a maximum 240p. 720p is an HD resolution that simply not possible with the original hardware of any of the systems supported.
Savestates, button remapping, speed settings, audio interpolation, built in cheats, etc. These are all standard emulation options only a computer offers.
Future firmware updates. Firmware means an OS, means computer.
"Our aim is 100% compatibility". The only way to achieve that through clone hardware is through emulation, which means a computer.
check out my classic gaming review site: http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/
Why is that? A emulator is merely a computer simulation of the hardware. If their recreation of the original hardware ever got good enough, they could do it with hardware.
Certainly the Super Nintendo side is pretty darn close already with clone systems. Not sure why the NES side never seemed to improve by much over the years, but I assume that for every complaint at a classic gaming forum, there were a dozen satisified customers that either never noticed any issues or felt that they were minor enough to not detract from the experience. So probably not much incentive to overhaul a NOAC design to improve accuracy.
Last edited by Leo_A; 03-26-2013 at 12:07 AM.
Im aware of all the ROM and flashcarts copyrights and whatnot, but them saying that is weird, I will talk to my contact about that, although I think it is useless to add Rom compatibility. Although, if they add that, it would kill all those flash carts market for the most part; because you can buy a multi emulator console for less than 100 vs a cart for 1 console only for over 100.
Anyways, about the roms online and downloading; I think this rule of copyright might be applicable, thus being the reason why nobody has don a TOS claim to any rom site. Also, that rule was supposed to end on 2009-2010 I do not know if it is still enforced. If you follow the link, there is another link where it goes deeper into that rule, and if I'm not mistake, they say that if the console is discontinued and no longer being manufactured, Roms sites are protected by this rules as they are considered archives.
"The Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1)) during the next three years.
(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."
Source:
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/2006/
I disagree
The people buying Everdrives, Cuttle Carts, PowerPaks, and so on are the diehard classic gamers. Much of this segment will stick to original hardware since that's what they love, they already have the consoles, they're more durable than any cheap 21st century Asian clone will be, you're guaranteed of 100% accuracy, compatibility is guaranteed, and it's nostalgia. There will still be demand for multicarts for such hardware and multicarts will likely be much more versatile than any cheap clone that can load roms off flash memory ever will be.
As for the rest of what you posted, I'm very skeptical. If the US government had actually put the cabash to protecting copyrights for obsolete videogame software, that would be big news in the classic gaming world. I suspect the old adage about not being able to put the genie back in the bottle is why rom sites don't seem to be gone after with the vigor of earlier years.
Last edited by Leo_A; 03-26-2013 at 01:44 AM.
I agree it's likely to have either a really cheap x86 or more likely an ARM CPU inside.
Analog signals can be interlaced or progressive; I don't know what you mean by "converting" here. Most televisions with support for 480p progressive signal used YPbPr (aka "component") video.720p video output. Analog RGB signals, even when converted into digital progressive scan, can produce a maximum 240p.
The PC VGA monitor is one example of a type of analog RGB connection which is usually much higher than 240p; I'm using this analog connection right now to type out this response - on a 1920x1200 monitor! (This is about as high as you'd want to go with analog RGB because the signal will eventually start to reach its bandwidth and clarity limits).
I don't know what you mean by "simply not possible." You can get an (analog) 720p signal from an upscaler, and without modifying the system.720p is an HD resolution that simply not possible with the original hardware of any of the systems supported.
If you wanted an old-fashioned console to output 720p, it would be a relatively simple engineering task. You could either do it by converting the analog RGB signal (or whatever you have to work with, actually; nothing says you can't work from composite or S-Video) or you could do it (like somebody has recently been working on with the NES) by intercepting certain signals from "original" NES hardware (the CPU etc.), or redesigning the board slightly (same thing) so that instead of sending data to analog RGB encoding, you send the data to be encoded in a digital system. Nothing magical or unusual about it. Again, you can use an external upscaler or converter box to change signals to pretty much any format you need, depending on what you're starting with and what you're going to. It's just more elegant and probably much faster to do what I am sure the RetroN is doing, which is generating the data which will make up an image internally (whether by emulation or with some close-to-original hardware makes no difference, seriously) and then generating that as a digital image, rather than an analog one.
Again those are actually things that could be done without emulation. I've got controllers that can be remapped, I've got a cartridge-taking MSX computer with a CPU speed slider, we've all got Game Genies, and for the most likely of the features - savestates - it's actually not impossible to dump or intercept the state of a CPU. It's just not a feature that works very well (if at all) with the cheap CPUs found in these systems. Nothing theoretical says you couldn't design a new CPU that has it.Savestates, button remapping, speed settings, audio interpolation, built in cheats, etc. These are all standard emulation options only a computer offers.
You don't need an OS to have firmware. Furthermore, the firmware could just be for tweaking peripheral functions or video output.Future firmware updates. Firmware means an OS, means computer.
Emulation is actually a good way to screw things up, and emulation is very rarely "cycle accurate" to the original hardware (MAME isn't, for example), and that will likely be needed to really get some SNES effects right. And if you look at the current builds of higan (formerly bsnes) you'll see that requires a lot more CPU horsepower than this thing is packing. Another approach (which is a kind of emulation) would be the use of a FPGA but that's even less likely to be successful, especially since the emulation community has focused on emulation software, rather than implementing things in FPGAs (and FPGA implementation details can and will differ significantly from device to device). And then there is another, much more obvious route you seem to deny is possible - using original components or close analogues (if you recall, the SNES CPU was intended in part to allow NES gameplay on the system, and the Genesis 3 also has some differences from the original Genesis which affect a very few games). Building a system with fully digital output, without tons of signals from different chips interfering with each other, and without terrible expense, doubtlessly ruled this approach out. But I don't see what on earth stops a clone manufacturer from reverse engineering the very few proprietary or protected things in most of these machines, and buying off-the-shelf components for most of the rest."Our aim is 100% compatibility". The only way to achieve that through clone hardware is through emulation, which means a computer.
Anyway, the point of this post is to point out that technical ability and cost are what will certainly cause this to run an emulator (rather than even an FPGA). However there is, again, nothing which theoretically forbids it. It's induction based on what is probable, not deduction based on what is possible.
And what is possible is probably a lot nicer than this thing will end up being. However, it's already very expensive for people to have little batches of just small bare PCBs made, to populate with off-the-shelf components, to say nothing of trying to make new designs, especially if they require a CPU fabrication plant to make new stuff (very expensive) or have hybrid components. However it's certainly possible to do some of the stuff mentioned, like have a digital signal with some user-selectable memory sections displayed in the corners, or a built-in cheat engine to change data (just halt the CPU first, easy even on cheap CPUs), and to do some of the other things mentioned.
Well, not exactly - firstly, old things can die. Ever heard of caps? I myself don't have a soldering iron; I have to ship a few things out soon to get them fixed. And other, more troublesome things can and do go wrong - RAMs often go bad. Batteries leak acid and destroy PCBs and other components. Components get fried by power surges. Even getting that "classic look" takes a classic tube TV, I find, and good ones are dying all the time, and not being replaced. The old consoles often can't physically connect to a modern TV without a fair amount of technological wizardry connecting components.
100% accuracy and compatibility - well, the Genesis 3 isn't 100% compatible with the Genesis game library. (It is a better system than I used to think though, and the broken games don't really matter.) Accuracy could even go bad if an oscillator goes nuts or some other component fades in an unusual way. The CPU and other burned-on components (like mask ROMs, not always used in cartridges though) should last and perform accurately a very long time, but they do rely on a bunch of other unusual stuff to make the system go.
We're in a situation where there is a constant attrition of older, original consoles. Really, I think the only thing that will save some of these libraries will be the eventual release of a console clone, either by the original manufacturer or a third party, with modern-day output features (likely to remain digital signals for the foreseeable future). Other than that, I don't know, I guess I sound like a survivalist now - stock those systems while you still can!
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 03-26-2013 at 02:05 AM.
Obviously he's talking about what the signal the console's video circuit is putting out. Not what you can do to it after the fact with things like scalers which I'm sure he's quite aware of.
Old things of course die. But when it does happen, old things are often the best candidates to actually maintain and repair compared to something like a NOAC since they tended to be built to a very high level of quality. Particularly in the pre CD drive age. Look at all the heavy sixers from the 1970's that are still ticking in the Atari community today just fine today. These clone systems aren't built with the same mentality.
In general, I put my money on the best of the Sunnyvale class of 1977 outliving the best of 2013 from whatever little factory in China that Hyperkin has hired to assemble and build these. People have been saying what you said for many years yet the best of the past is still outliving most of the present and future like Xbox 360's, Playstation 3's, cheap Asian clones of classic consoles, and so on.
If we're going to nitpick (I think the total of incompatible Genesis games is two on the Genesis 3), then most consoles lack perfect compatibility with their own library of software. Wasn't there a earlier Genesis revision that refused to play things like EA releases? Most any system that has had revisions has either had a few games that don't work in a later run of the console or vice versa, sometimes intentionally broken and sometimes not. Atari 2600, Intellivision, Playstation 2, etc. Didn't even a small run of earlier Xbox 360's have issues reading new game disc when Microsoft expanded the writable portion of a DVD area for game software a few years back?
Last edited by Leo_A; 08-16-2014 at 09:58 PM.
It's still nonsense because when we are talking about a "clone" or remake of a console, the only limit to the design putting out analog RGB or a digital signal is how the video has been generated and encoded. You can either encode (as an upscaler does) source analog RGB into a digital signal, or you can work with the digital data internally generated by the CPU and other components to create a digital signal. Creating a good replacement for any analog components (which create a good portion of a system's sound) would be challenging, but might not be a big deal depending on how the sound CPUs work (i.e. if they have a DAC internally or externally - I know on many of these older systems the DAC is a separate chip, which means you might not need to deal with analog components in that area at all). Another example of analog and digital confusion is the NES colorburst generator. Does it need to be done the way the NES does it? By no means.
Old things of course die. But when it does happen, old things are often the best candidates to actually maintain and repair compared to something like a NOAC. But old game consoles tended to be built to a very high level of quality. Particularly in the pre CD drive age. Look at all the heavy sixers from the 1970's that are still ticking in the Atari community today just fine today. These clone systems aren't built with the same mentality.
When I took my Atari VCS controller out of a closet a few years ago - which had only been very lightly used and never by me, and was sold by a reputable member here - one of the joysticks was so brittle that just light handling caused a part to break off. '90s consoles? Filled with tons of cheap crap, like the capacitors. So yeah, we're gonna need new stuff man. But delude yourself as much as you like, it's probably future hardware sales for me.In general, I put my money on the best of the Sunnyvale class of 1977 outliving the best of 2013 from whatever little factory in China that Hyperkin has hired to assemble and build these.
If even original systems aren't internally compatible, it makes that "guarantee of compatibility" claim seem rather windy, doesn't it?If we're going to nitpick (I think the total of incompatible Genesis games is two on the Genesis 3), then most consoles lack perfect compatibility with their own library of software. Wasn't there a earlier Genesis revision that refused to play things like EA releases? Most any system that has had revisions has either had a few games that don't work in a later run of the console or vice versa, sometimes intentionally broken and sometimes not. Atari 2600, Intellivision, Playstation 2, etc. Didn't even a small run of earlier Xbox 360's have issues reading new game disc when Microsoft expanded the writable portion of a DVD area for game software a few years back?
I'm appalled by the lack of imagination here. I'm not saying - and I don't accept, as I am sure you don't - that a new console entirely is the likely answer. But it's a fact that over time many components - including some rather expensive ones (i.e. certain parts of laser assemblies in CD-ROM systems) are going to need to be replaced, at a minimum. And most people don't have the skills to troubleshoot even a blown fuse, let alone replacement of surface mount CPUs with thin traces. And the more you have to fix these things, the more it's likely there will be a cascade of little faults and problems introduced with the fixes that may eventually render them unserviceable.
For now many of the components that are likely to fail in these old systems are mass-produced, especially the capacitors but also many families of logic chips (like the TI 7400 series) are still in good supply. But apart from the magic of "this was made years ago and still works," there's nothing that a reissue of old hardware couldn't accomplish. It might even have better functionality than the original - just look around at the hardware modding guides and you realize the horrible shortcuts and problems that arose in many old systems, and a new release that either went with more up-to-date components (one reason the Genesis 3 is neat is that it uses a much newer and better Sony RGB encoder) or ditched some of the more or less totally deprecated features in favor of new ones.
Not everybody is super concerned about it, or can/does play at a level where they would notice it or want to be concerned about it, but reportedly you get a frame of lag (at least) even in game-oriented upscalers, and pretty soon those will be one of the few ways to even work with the output from many old consoles (unless you have a stockpile of TVs and get lucky and have none break on you while sitting around, which can also happen). This is one of the completely obvious areas in which a really rather moderate reworking (some people are doing it with just minor surgery to old consoles, of course) of display output would help keep old consoles alive.
As a final thought, back to the NES - there are a lot of folks still looking for those NES arcade RGB PPUs, even with their horrific problems they represent an upgrade to many people. If (and perhaps, given the relative simplicity of the NES, this might actually be an issue of "when") there is a replacement for that component, that will be actually a great service to many very seriously-minded, accuracy and nostalgia-oriented classic gamers. I don't know what we gain by sitting around and going "welp, (I don't think) it doesn't affect me, therefore it's useless" like that's an amazing service to the world.
For starters, there's zero need to defend clones. My interest is clearly there and they're a nice thing to have and I'm looking forward to advancements like this one possibly has to offer. So why you're leaping to their defense, I don't know. I wasn't out attacking them in the first place.
I simply pointed out the obvious. The ability to load roms from a memory source, if it happens here, is hardly going to kill the sales of things like Harmony cartridges. People aren't lining up at the door to throw away their original hardware. So there's no need to hope that this lacks that feature out of some mistaken thought that it will protect the homebrew manufacturers that design and build those devices.
My classic consoles all say otherwise. And when things do fail like capacitors, they're replacable. And I've never had a Atari 2600 joystick become brittle and can log right into Best Electronics website and order everything I need to rebuild one into brand new condition when I need to.
I'm not worried. I'm sure I'd see it differently if I had an interest in selling these, but I'm just a classic gamer. I'll worry when I have issues and if all this stuff is going to be as failure prone as you think it is, I may as well go to PC emulation if it did happen because the games and quality original accessories will also be dying en masse if we subscribe to your scenario.
There won't be anything left to play.
If you actually do some reading, you will see that the goal is 100% compatibility. That's a fine goal to strive for even though I'm sure they won't reach it. And I'd be disappointed in anything less than aiming for that mark.
But you're twisting it around as if it's some sort of promise here when it isn't.
Ahh, the last gasp of petulance, accusing the other person of not reading because they didn't take your attempt to redefine a conversation they were having with another person in the way you wanted. Keep it classy! But since you went there, let me just point out that I don't know how in blazes you go from reading me saying "here are expensive ways the RetroN COULD be close to 100% accurate, and here are the cheap ways it will likely employ and not be anywhere close to 100% accurate" (if you ignore that part where I talk about differences between accurate emulation of just the CPU, and accurate emulation of the system's 'look and feel' which goes beyond simple "accuracy," of course), to believeing I wrote "the RetroN has a chance at being 100% compatible or accurate!" If your point is to say that it's not a great sin for RetroN 5's makers to promise to aim for something they can't reach - 100% accuracy - I also think it's not a great sin to point out that it is, in fact, an unrealistic target, and might (i.e. surely will) mislead buyers. I know that every time some lazy clone manufacturer drops by and promises the clone to rule them all, my ears perk up because I think, for a brief moment, that somebody who is not just looking to pawn off another cheaply made and underperforming semi-clone will actually give us a viable source of new parts.
I apologize for writing a too-long post earlier, but when you decided to butt in with your misinformed view of what I had written, I think you needed to read this:
Likewise, technical ability and cost are what forbid the use of other approaches that would allow greater compatibility.Anyway, the point of this post is to point out that technical ability and cost are what will certainly cause this to run an emulator (rather than even an FPGA). However there is, again, nothing which theoretically forbids it.
Their goal is truly not "100% compatibility" because that is all but ruled out by their cheap approach. Their real goal is "as close to 100% accuracy as possible with the cheap generic hardware we'll be using, and also we'll try to throw in some other features not provided by the original hardware to hopefully sway those on the fence." I don't see why there's a bunch of fuss over simply stating that the claim of seeking 100% compatibility (which would entail close to 100% accuracy to run the SNES library, by the way; it takes byuu 3GHz at least to actually make some SNES games full-featured or even just playable from start to finish, but RetroN probably is using a cheap and relatively underpowered ARM CPU which will leave out many important features of the SNES).
There's also another point here which seems somewhat important: I don't know where you get the idea I'm defending clones in every shape and form, especially after I pointed out so many ways clones can hurt the gaming experience. I think the RetroN 5 is unlikely to be a great advance or a great value (which should be obvious, again, from what I've been saying wrote about problems with various clone approaches, i.e. on-CPU emulation, FPGA reimplementation of hardware, or inexact use of almost-similar components, which is what the classic clones used to better effect than, say, NOAC Famiclones used). I specifically mentioned reissues of hardware from the original manufacturers. However, I do think it's also reasonable to say that there are many things that could be improved short of a full hardware replacement. I don't think you're saying "there's no need for replacement parts or systems" is basically admitting that you don't know what the retro gaming community wants, so this is just an argument from ignorance.
Whether or not that push targets you, or whether or not you have had great success and a bit of luck with keeping your old hardware alive (which I hope holds for you!) is really besides the point. This isn't about just you. The fact remains that these systems are becoming too scarce to service the demand of the retrogaming community, expensive to maintain, and their numbers are dropping. On top of that, there are some problems with many of the original systems that could be addressed. And I find it pretty funny how you state that at the slightest difficulty with hardware beyond capacitors, you'll drop it entirely for emulation. Kind of proves my point, doesn't it? Well, I just hope that by the time that happens that we'll all be using emulators using a model like byuu's excellent SNES emulator.
I just realized that could be boiled down in a much simpler way: Satoshi said that only emulation gives 100% compatibility (or accuracy, I think they are pretty much interchangeable terms actually), which is wrong. I pointed out other ways it could be done. Then Leo, with an emphasis on cost (natural, but not the point of my post) keeps referring to NOACs and "cheap Chinese clones," which again I don't see how you reasonably see as what I'm referring to as viable replacements for systems or broken components. I hope that clears things up.
Incredible
First of all, you hardly have to state the obvious. Nobody around here expects 100% compatibility. So there's little reason to be so long winded unless you just like typing. We don't need you jumping in and "educating" us.
Secondly, you stated "if even original systems aren't internally compatible, it makes that "guarantee of compatibility" claim seem rather windy, doesn't it?"
To me, I interpreted that as criticism of Hyperkin that they ever even suggested that maximum compatibility was their goal here.
I butted in at a discussion board open to the public? Take it private then next time, don't include quotes from a person you don't want replying to you, and start reading other people's postings for a change before going off half cocked for 5,000 words.
You don't say.
People are well aware of that. Heck, I even made reference to it several pages back and obviously was referencing the same emulator you had in mind since things like ZSNES are hardly taxing on any PC hardware from the 2000's. And that was well before you ever jumped in...
I never suggested that you were defending every clone. But I just assumed when you started to write a term paper in response to my statement that there will always be a place for original hardware among a segment of this community, that you apparently felt the need to leap to the defense of things like the Retron5.
I have nothing against the Retron5. Quite the opposite if you actually finally tried reading this thread for a change.
And I very much doubt that you will ever have any success with that claim around here.
Last edited by Leo_A; 06-16-2014 at 04:47 AM.
*removed*
I had posted something in response to something Leo said, but misread what was written. Please delete this post.
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