XBOX360 Ban (modded consoles) class action lawsuit - update - I got my stuff back :D

[TonyTheTiger]

That's an oversimplification. At one point, Sony (I believe it was Sony) got sued because it was selling VCRs. The argument was that Sony was selling a device that was being used to violate copyrights (ala, tape record TV shows). The court sided with Sony on the grounds that, although that use of a VCR might be problematic, the device itself served other purposes beyond copyright infringement. I think we can agree that an Xbox 360, even a modified one, can serve more purposes than playing copied games. Granted, I'm not nearly naive enough to think that most people aren't using it for that and that alone but the "infringing device" is really the modchip rather than the entire console. And in the case of software mods, well, that's another can of worms.

But nobody can come and actually take the entire system away. What can happen, and this is what happened to Lik-Sang, is the courts can go after people and companies selling modchips on the grounds that those devices don't serve a non-infringing purpose, unlike a VCR. Microsoft might be allowed to do what cable providers do and send a signal that renders the infringing hardware (the modchip) nonfunctional. In fact, firmware updates have been used to do things like that. But there are limits to what they can do. A cable provider, for instance, can't send a signal that not only fries the descrambler but also destroys the TV set it's attached to.

[Porksta]

I understand where you are coming from. It didn't occur to me that people using these modded 360s can also, if they choose, play legit games.

But to get back on topic, all Microsoft did was disable the systems that are illegaly (according to the TOS) modified in any way, shape or form. For that reason, and that reason alone, the people have no case and I do not pity anyone that was affected by Microsoft's decision. Again, if they had simply followed the rules, they would have no problems. A vast majority of 360 owners have had no problems obeying the rules set forth.

[Bojay1997]

That's an oversimplification. At one point, Sony (I believe it was Sony) got sued because it was selling VCRs. The argument was that Sony was selling a device that was being used to violate copyrights (ala, tape record TV shows). The court sided with Sony on the grounds that, although that use of a VCR might be problematic, the device itself served other purposes beyond copyright infringement. I think we can agree that an Xbox 360, even a modified one, can serve more purposes than playing copied games. Granted, I'm not nearly naive enough to think that most people aren't using it for that and that alone but the "infringing device" is really the modchip rather than the entire console. And in the case of software mods, well, that's another can of worms.

But nobody can come and actually take the entire system away. What can happen, and this is what happened to Lik-Sang, is the courts can go after people and companies selling modchips on the grounds that those devices don't serve a non-infringing purpose, unlike a VCR. Microsoft might be allowed to do what cable providers do and send a signal that renders the infringing hardware (the modchip) nonfunctional. In fact, firmware updates have been used to do things like that. But there are limits to what they can do. A cable provider, for instance, can't send a signal that not only fries the descrambler but also destroys the TV set it's attached to.

On the cable example, you're missing the point that the cable companies are allowed to fry (i.e destroy or take by your reasoning) the illegal box. The cable companies didn't provide those boxes, people bought them from third party vendors. Microsoft is actually doing far less here since people can still use their Xbox 360 to play legit games.

[skaar]

Oh well, I have no remorse for people that bypass rules because they think they are better than everyone else.

It's not a matter of being "better than everyone else" - I think you've somehow inferred that on your own here. I was playing legit games on a modded console.

My point is I did something that was technically feasible but that they didn't want me to do - upgrade my hard drive on my own. And yes, they have a "rule" about me doing so. I still don't feel the rule is fair, however. But what can you do?

And to clear up a possible misunderstanding here, I have 3 Xbox 360s. Well, 2 now. The other Pro is back in service fulltime and I have all of my games redownloaded and fully functional on there. Well, I shouldn't say all. The 20GB that came with it is full, and I can't get all of my DLC on there. So to add to this whole thing, it looks like I'm going to have to spring for that overpriced hard drive ANYWAY

So as I've said before - I don't hate them for banning my console, I think that's perfectly within their rights to do. But I hate them for killing all my saved games and purchased XBLA titles on that console.

Plus as mentioned, the media streaming doesn't work since you have to be signed into live to use it (??) - maybe they just want to track file names people play to report back to someone :P

The sting of not actually OWNING games I've bought just became a lot more real. It'll be really fun when it's the only way to buy things... violate their TOS by insulting the wrong person in a Halo match and they kill your collection? This is cool? DLC ftw.

[Porksta]

On the cable example, you're missing the point that the cable companies are allowed to fry (i.e destroy or take by your reasoning) the illegal box. The cable companies didn't provide those boxes, people bought them from third party vendors. Microsoft is actually doing far less here since people can still use their Xbox 360 to play legit games.

The wording was a little weird but I think he said they can't fry the box and television, just the box.

[Porksta]

It's not a matter of being "better than everyone else" - I think you've somehow inferred that on your own here.

You felt like you were too important to have to buy an official 360 hard drive, so yes you felt like you were better than everyone and that the rules did not apply to you. You circumvented the rules that everyone else has to follow.

I did something that was technically feasible but that they didn't want me to do - upgrade my hard drive on my own. And yes, they have a "rule" about me doing so. I still don't feel the rule is fair, however. But what can you do?

Not buy a hard drive for the 360?

So as I've said before - I don't hate them for banning my console, I think that's perfectly within their rights to do. But I hate them for killing all my saved games and purchased XBLA titles. The sting of not actually OWNING games I've bought just became a lot more real. It'll be really fun when it's the only way to buy things... violate their TOS by insulting the wrong person in a Halo match and they kill your collection? This is cool?

As I have asked, are you not able to access your XBL account and redownload the games?

I have a bunch of stuff stored in a stolen car. If the car gets impounded would I feel bad about losing all that stuff? Yes, but I would have also known that eventually I would have been caught and been angry at no one but myself.

[skaar]

You felt like you were too important to have to buy an official 360 hard drive, so yes you felt like you were better than everyone and that the rules did not apply to you.

Again, you're being needlessly insulting about this. I had a spare 160GB and some time to install it. Your position is that if a company is overcharging for a product they are willingly not adjusting to meet market rates this is appropriate conduct? This is a hard drive, not the diamond industry

As I have asked, are you not able to access your XBL account and redownload the games?

Yep, I've already answered that in an earlier post.

I have a bunch of stuff stored in a stolen car. If the car gets impounded would I feel bad about losing all that stuff? Yes, but I would have also known that eventually I would have been caught and been angry at no one but myself.

I think a more accurate description would be that I installed an after-market stereo in a new car and the dealer saw me driving around in it... then pushed a button to disable my stereo entirely because they were upset I didn't pay dealer markup

Like I've said before, I'll take the hit and move on. But I do want people to be aware that it's not just the "dirty pirates" getting screwed on this, and it's not as simple a situation as they'd like it to be. The way Live is constructed and worked into the console, Microsoft has now established that they can not only ban you from their service.... they can kill your library.

I was not able to transfer anything off the console at all after the "bomb" hit - I was only able to recover to another console using the standard tool. Everything on that console is now toxic.

Anywho...

[NE146]

Oh well, I have no remorse for people that bypass rules because they think they are better than everyone else.

That's a pretty weak (and oddly insecure) statement to generalize people who have modified a console as "thinking they are better than everyone else". Even if true... so what? What do you think of people who think they are worse than everyone else. Are they to be lauded? Truth is, one really has nothing to do with the other.

Personally I have four 360's. I've modded two. I don't think I'm any better than anyone else anymore so than when I had my Turbografx able to play PCE games (ALSO against the rules I might add )

p.s. I've had no problems with my 360's. Knock on wood

Microsoft has now established that they can not only ban you from their service.... they can kill your library.

True enough. They really should've stuck to their old tactic and simply stop that console from playing online anymore. That's 100% enough.

[portnoyd]

You felt like you were too important to have to buy an official 360 hard drive, so yes you felt like you were better than everyone and that the rules did not apply to you. You circumvented the rules that everyone else has to follow.

Read it again. He put in one that was larger than what was available.

Your holier-than-thou routine is getting old.

I have a bunch of stuff stored in a stolen car. If the car gets impounded would I feel bad about losing all that stuff? Yes, but I would have also known that eventually I would have been caught and been angry at no one but myself.

Horrible example.

[8-bitNesMan]

You felt like you were too important to have to buy an official 360 hard drive, so yes you felt like you were better than everyone and that the rules did not apply to you. You circumvented the rules that everyone else has to follow.



Not buy a hard drive for the 360?



As I have asked, are you not able to access your XBL account and redownload the games?

I have a bunch of stuff stored in a stolen car. If the car gets impounded would I feel bad about losing all that stuff? Yes, but I would have also known that eventually I would have been caught and been angry at no one but myself.

If he is not using the bigger (and cheaper) hard drive to play pirated games, which he has stated he wasn't and I believe that, then what "law" is he breaking? Is that Microsoft Code 001-$$? -- "You have to buy our massively overpriced storage devices or face severe consequences including but not limited to losing legitimate content that you paid honest money for." I don't agree with piracy but I think you should be able to put any hard drive you want into YOUR own 360. Do PC makers penalize customers for modifying/upgrading their machines? The PC market THRIVES on people doing so. I think Skaar has a legitimate beef here.

[Porksta]

I never said he was using the larger hard drive to play pirated games. I just said that by installing a larger hard drive he was violating the TOS. Do I think people should be able to use any hard drive they want? Sure. However Microsoft does not, and since it is their system, why are they not allowed to set the rules? If you don't want to pay the prices Microsoft has set, then do not buy a hard drive for your 360. Microsoft was nice enough to include a hard drive with my 360, and I have yet to fill up even half of it.

Portnoyd - when I actually stop being holier than thou, then you have a reason to get upset. Until the time comes that I stop obeying the rules and laws set forth, then I can act however I want. Those that violate rules and laws will always be < than those that obey the rules and act like pricks.

And really, it is harder to break the rules than to obey them.

[portnoyd]

I never said he was using the larger hard drive to play pirated games. I just said that by installing a larger hard drive he was violating the TOS. Do I think people should be able to use any hard drive they want? Sure. However Microsoft does not, and since it is their system, why are they not allowed to set the rules? If you don't want to pay the prices Microsoft has set, then do not buy a hard drive for your 360. Microsoft was nice enough to include a hard drive with my 360, and I have yet to fill up even half of it.

I'll come from your school of awful examples: my car came stock with a gas tank that holds 2/3 of a gallon of gas. I can use it, but it runs out of gas several times before I get to work. However, I can buy a better gas tank that holds 5 gallons, but it costs 3x the price of a normal gas tank like the one that comes in kupomogli's car. This better tank still won't get me to work without running out. However, skaar offers me a normal priced gas tank that holds even more gas to replace the midget sized one I just got stock.

By your rules, I should be a good little boy and run out of gas on a daily basis.

Portnoyd - when I actually stop being holier than thou, then you have a reason to get upset. Until the time comes that I stop obeying the rules and laws set forth, then I can act however I want. Those that violate rules and laws will always be < than those that obey the rules and act like pricks.

It's really getting old now. I hope your head implodes the second you drive a mile over the speed limit.

[Porksta]

I'll come from your school of awful examples: my car came stock with a gas tank that holds 2/3 of a gallon of gas. I can use it, but it runs out of gas several times before I get to work. However, I can buy a better gas tank that holds 15 gallons, but it costs 3x the price of a normal gas tank like the one that comes in kupomogli's car. However, skaar offers me a normal priced bigger gas tank to replace the midget sized one I just got stock.



It's really getting old now. I hope your head implodes the second you drive a mile over the speed limit.

Actually I can drive up to 5mph because of variances in police speed guns. Or so I have been told.

[portnoyd]

Actually I can drive up to 5mph because of variances in police speed guns. Or so I have been told.

No, I'd just like your head to implode. Would save us from a lot of stupid examples and hypocritical nonsense.

[Shadow Kisuragi]

...the real problem here is that people with modded consoles of any magnitude are using Xbox Live. Microsoft may have stepped over the line with disabling console features and corrupting hard drive contents, but I would ensure that the TOS/EULA has not been updated to reflect this. Microsoft has a habit of updating the TOS/EULA without acknowledgement from the User.

Skaar,
You should have known that modding the hard drive would eventually result in a console ban, as this was previously done on Microsoft's last console, the Xbox. There's a reason you had to go out of your way to mask the drivers. If you're going to mod the hard drive, do so with the correct hard drive model at least (Western Digital 120GB SATA). Microsoft's premium sucks, as half the price is just the harness.

Porksta & portnoyd,
Can we get back to the topic at hand please?

Also, Porksta, rules are indeed flexible as you've pointed out. I've been pulled over for "reckless driving" because I accelerated too quickly after stopping at a stop sign because the officer was bored, but I wasn't breaking any laws. You can break the law without actually breaking it. That's essentially the point at hand for Skaar - he broke the terms by using a non-Microsoft branded HDD, but did not do something that deserved having all of his saves destroyed.

Microsoft's view of escalation bites...stay off Xbox Live if you don't want Microsoft involved. This is why Xfire was a popular alternative to Xbox Live.

[TonyTheTiger]

However Microsoft does not, and since it is their system, why are they not allowed to set the rules?

Because it might not be their system. They have an interest in the console not being used to violate copyrights (and can choose who has permission to access their ongoing online service) but who actually has ownership over the individual machine has been a contant headache. Microsoft would love to be able to argue that the company is always the owner while the end user is a licensee who is effectively borrowing the hardware until the license either runs out or is voided in some way.

This is, of course, a logical leap because clearly Microsoft isn't going to go around to collect 360s from people when the console dies off. But, nevertheless, that's the legal reality MS would want to see. Anybody with the least bit of libertarian sensibilities, however, would argue that's bullshit. "I bought it, I own it. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a fucking duck."

Portnoyd - when I actually stop being holier than thou, then you have a reason to get upset. Until the time comes that I stop obeying the rules and laws set forth, then I can act however I want. Those that violate rules and laws will always be < than those that obey the rules and act like pricks.

And really, it is harder to break the rules than to obey them.

Wow. Serious question. Did you tattle a lot as a child? No joke, this kind of thinking is why a lot of unjust laws in history were allowed to last for as long as they did and why good men and women paid harsh penalties for standing up for what was right. Excuse the inflammatory example, but would you say that to a 19th century runaway slave?

Actually I can drive up to 5mph because of variances in police speed guns. Or so I have been told.

So what's the lesson here? Never break a rule...unless you know you can get away with it?

[skaar]

Skaar,
You should have known that modding the hard drive would eventually result in a console ban, as this was previously done on Microsoft's last console, the Xbox. There's a reason you had to go out of your way to mask the drivers. If you're going to mod the hard drive, do so with the correct hard drive model at least (Western Digital 120GB SATA). Microsoft's premium sucks, as half the price is just the harness.

Oh I know - the issue was that it's the exact same process to reprogram the drive - it's using information from a 120GB retail drive to mask the drive to use only 120GB of it. I was tight on space and my 360 was scraping disks from time to time, so I replaced the HD to cache games to the HD and fit all that Fallout 3 DLC. And all I had available was a 160GB Blue Scorpio (still an acceptable option)

Porksta, I can agree with your beef about people just using things like this for piracy. That's fair and kills the industry. I work in the games industry, I know what effects piracy has on sales.

The point I was trying to make was that I think what I was doing was arguably a reasonable alternative to shelling out full price for a big HD. I didn't steal a car, I did a modification they didn't like because it didn't fit within their product strategy. I was quite pleased with the stereo analogy, I'd like it if you at least acknowledged it

The modded 360 has found a good home and the people who got it from me have been burning a pile of games for their kids since they've received it. Microsoft just made a family's christmas and I'm glad to have made them happy too

Surely not what they'd hoped for as a result, but it's the least I can do

[ScourDX]

I think swapping HD for cheaper HD is the same as using 3rd party controller. Imagine Microsoft ban you from using XBL just because they find using 3rd party controller allows you to cheat on XBL. That never happens, but still swapping HD should be allowed and I don't see the reason to ban. Sure it allows to play backup and such, but is it there a format function in the unit itself?

[portnoyd]

Porksta & portnoyd, Can we get back to the topic at hand please?

Potentially.

To anyone who modded and pirated, what'd you expect?

To people like skaar, a blanket zero tolerance ban sucks but I guess it was the risk you took. Considering that Sony lets you swap HDs, it's even more a shame.

Let's get dorky: I think Porksta's problem is he fronts that he is lawful good and we're all neutral good. The law is all well and good, but it was created by people with agendas different than yours. In skaar's case, MS wants money, skaar doesn't want to spend the money MS wants him to.

[badinsults]

I removed the tabs from my Super Nintendo so that I could play Super Famicom games.

According to Porksta I should be lynched for breaking Nintendo's license agreement.

But if you observe the way Sony destroyed Lik Sang, these companies don't even want you importing a foreign console to play these games. In essence, the major video companies want their cake and eat it too. There are legitimate reasons to mod your consoles (for example to play imports or in skaar's case, to cheaply add in a larger hard drive). These purposes are not illegal in Canada, although the DCMA in the US makes this a greyer area. You can be all boy scoutish about this and say that "you broke the agreement, therefore you shall pay the price". And certainly MS has the right to disable the modded consoles from connecting to their network. However, that is not an excuse to destroy your data. That is a dangerous legal precedent, and if you remember the debacle with Sony selling music CDs with trojans on them, probably would be deemed illegal.