U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[RCM]

I did a little digging and it appears that there is a standards organization that publishers/manufacturers get in contact with and once they get assigned a unique number range, they can essentially implement their own barcode sequencing in line with various rules. So, it's possible that Sega Europe was considered a different company than Sega of America and therefore they couldn't simply use the same barcode. It's also possible that they just did this for internal reasons or maybe the distributor and not Sega was required to put their own unique manufacturer number and UPC on there in line with their own sequencing plan.

Here is the link if anyone is really curious:

http://www.gs1.org/barcodes/implementation/

Yeah. I was working on a program a few years ago with publishers and a high profile company that handles their data. The program was scrapped because of all the issues with regional UPC matching.

[jperryss]

I have read all of this thread. I must say, TonyTheTiger has done an extremely good job with his logical argument. Props go to 98PaceCar for debating intelligently. I was really didn't care one way or the other, as I'm not a collector. Now I think that, in light of Tony's argument against the UPC code, anyone willing to accept Sonic as a US release must accept all other official video game import releases as US releases as well.

This was fun reading, guys.

I don't follow the SMS but thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

[Dreammary]

If this gets even a fraction of the press that other high profile games have recently I'd put money on it happening very soon if it hasn't already.



Given how simple and arcane UPC stickers/codes tend to be, I'd have a hard time imagining how. Outside of judging the sticker based on its perceived age (which could also probably be faked) I can't think of any way to do it. It's just an extremely unusual situation. Basing such a huge value difference on the presence of a simple sticker is like valuing a game based on the generic epilepsy warning fliers that get packed with some games.

That's like the difference between Caltron and Myriad NES cartridges, just a simple white paper with black ink label placed on top of Caltron causing nearly four times the worth.

[Drixxel]

That's like the difference between Caltron and Myriad NES cartridges, just a simple white paper with black ink label placed on top of Caltron causing nearly four times the worth.

At least there you're dealing with a distinct and meaningful cosmetic change to the cart, not some generic barcode sticker slapped on the packaging as proof of the game's identity. If somebody were trying to sell a gutted U.S. Sonic The Hedgehog, just the case with no cart and no manual, what kind of price would it fetch by comparison? How about a perfectly preserved U.S. Sonic UPC, carefully peeled from the original packaging and then slabbed? Really distill the value down to its point of origin.

[play2win]

Well, I'm very proud to say that I am the winner of this infamous eBay auction. I have to say, I had no idea that my bid would generate this much discussion. This game did complete my US SMS collection, and I have been actively looking for it for more than 10 years, mostly through saved eBay searches that have generated more than 1500 archived emails . It feels incredible to finally have a legitimate copy of this game. I have to say though, I've really enjoyed reading this thread and contemplating the arguments made as to whether this game constituted an authentic US Release.

Some of you may know this, but I actually fell victim to an eBay scam several months ago which involved an altered SMS Spiderman UPC sticker stuck on a European Sonic release. For my day job, I work as a large Corporation's Senior House Counsel, and those legal skills came in very handy in finally obtaining a refund. However the significance of this example for this thread's purposes is that the Spiderman UPC sticker wasn't just ripped off, it was actually altered to drastically reduce its size. The original Spiderman sticker contains several legal notifications involving the Marvel characters depicted in the game which, presumably, Sega's Counsel advised were necessary to market the game in the US for purposes of compliance with Marvel's permitted use of their intellectual property. This point is significant because it suggests that it was Sega, and not local distributors, who created the UPC stickers for the US releases of Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic. The material used in these UPC stickers appears to be identical, and is not sticky paper but rather material of a slightly thicker (and possibly partially metallic) consistency. It's not as easy to fake as you might think, and while I can't conclude this with 100% certainty, I'm personally satisfied that this sticker is not a fake.

Notwithstanding, my personal opinion on the UPC debate, and this is not intended to be legal advice, is that the SMS version of Sonic the Hedgehog available without the referenced UPC sticker would likely fall within the legal definition of a "grey market good" under Federal Copyright law. A grey market good is basically a good legally sold in the United States that was not originally intended by the manufacturer for marketing in the United States. Canadian Oreo cookies are an example. The Mexican Coke example would probably not constitute a grey market good, given that the manufacturer, despite being in Mexico, intended the good for marketing in the United States when they affix the nutrition label to the product for US Compliance purposes. The Compliance aspect is not relevant, however, as the critical element of this analysis is the manufacturer's intent. As the UPC sticker evidences Sega's intent to market the game in the United States, and, incidentally, has an independent entry in the unofficial UPC database located here:

http://www.upcdatabase.com/item/010086070767

I have concluded (obviously, since I would not want this game in my collection otherwise) that this game is in fact a non-grey market, official US Release of SMS Sonic the Hedgehog.

By the way, to answer another question in the thread, this item was purchased with the knowledge, consent, and approval of my wonderful and understanding gf. She described it as finding the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle that needed to be finished for completion's sake. Thanks to all for the interesting analysis.

[Jorpho]

What was the second-last game in your collection?

[play2win]

That would be Strider. Besides that one, Golden Axe Warrior, Spiderman, Buster Douglas, and mail order Power Srike are the only other games which cost significant funds.

[Gameguy]

That would be Strider. Besides that one, Golden Axe Warrior, Spiderman, Buster Douglas, and mail order Power Srike are the only other games which cost significant funds.

Unless you start collecting imports, Mah-Jong and Smurfs 2 come to mind. I don't even know how much those game go for complete now as it's been awhile since I've seen them sell, Smurfs 2 is supposed to be the rarest SMS game worldwide with Mah-Jong being the second rarest. Are they anywhere near the cost of a US Sonic now?

[mikesides]

Congratulations Play2Win! Like many other people, Sonic is the last game I am missing as well. Glad to hear you have won this one after that last scam auction. I was following that one over on the Sega8Bit.com Forum and was glad you showed up to let everyone know you were able to get a refund. Good work!

[TonyTheTiger]

This may come across as overly confrontational but I seriously don't intend it that way. It's just a curiosity of mine that may help address one of the earlier issues Aussie2B brought up.

For the people who are saying that Sonic was actually the "last game they needed" or simply that they believe it to be a U.S. game, what inspired that thought in the first place?

I'm just going over the chicken and egg problem once more. Are different people independently coming to this same conclusion or is it the result of the fact that Sonic is listed as a U.S. game that causes people to think that?

Where did people first get the idea that Sonic was a U.S. game?

[portnoyd]

Clint Dyer?

[NeoZeedeater]

Where did people first get the idea that Sonic was a U.S. game?

Since it was announced, advertised, and released in 1991. No one back in the day would have disputed it being a US (or CDN) release. Now we're in some strange (but fascinating) sticker argument 20 years later.

[play2win]

This is going back about 10 years, but I believe came to this conclusion when reviewing online resources identifying known US games. I used both the release data available on gamefaqs.com:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/sms/563499-s...-hedgehog/data

as well as the game's information in this site's online rarity guide:

http://guide.digitpress.com:8080/DP/...f?gameid=18426

This was about the time I learned about the UPC Barcode issue. I used the same information resources for Sonic as for the other SMS games to identify US SMS releases and complete my collection.

[TonyTheTiger]

That's what I figured. Pretty much people value Sonic as a U.S. release because they're told that's what it is. While they don't value GameStop Radiant Silverguns as U.S. copies because nobody ever told them it was. I really dislike how arbitrary that is. I think it should be all or nothing in this case.

It's no surprise that I fall on the "none are U.S. games" side. But I think that's the most practical side to stand on. If Sonic gets kicked off offical U.S. game release lists then no harm no foul. But if it stays then all logic says a bunch of U.S. consoles have incomplete release lists right now.

[NeoZeedeater]

It has been brought up already but I think there's a difference between a publisher like Sega deciding to release SMS Sonic in North America and distributing it compared to a company like EB selling imports like Radiant Silvergun. The former should count as an official release. I'm sure Sega of America considered it one.

There's no way I'm counting my copy of Lord of the Sword as an "import" from the US for having a UPC Canada sticker on the back.

That said, I don't quite get why someone would need a UPC sticker to feel like their collection is complete. The "PAL" version has the same box and game. You would think that would be enough to satisfy it counting as the same product for a complete collection. But hey, it doesn't harm me so I don't really care. I'm happy with a loose cartridge.

[TonyTheTiger]

Eh. We've gone back and forth on that but I stand firm that there's genuinely no difference (academically, legally, etc.) between a company selling their foreign product locally or granting a third party the right to do the very same thing.

Otherwise Phantom Dust is not an American game since Microsoft didn't publish it here but instead let Majesco do it. It was Microsoft's own game and they pretty much wanted nothing to do with it in America. And, it also means that when Square sold their Japanese OSTs in America it magically became an American release.

I feel the leap required to justify Sonic as American is a lot further and harder to make than the opposite because of all the loops you have to jump through in order to hold to Sonic being American while eliminating all the other things that are in the same situation. This should really be a pretty simple matter at heart and the fact that there has to be so much mental gymnastics to justify Sonic tells me something is fishy.

[NeoZeedeater]

Hmm, there still could a difference in region patents that wouldn't apply to a situation like Phantom Dust. I'm looking at the European Shenmue II I bought at EB and the NA Shenmue 1 box. One box mentions European patents and one mentions US and Canada.

SOA probably registered SMS Sonic for NA. I doubt that was the case for whoever brought over Radiant Silvergun. I would assume you don't need to make new region patents for importing. These are just guesses on my part. I don't know much about that legal stuff (and I'm wondering why I'm overthinking this topic).

My position is that Sega released the game here in a manner that wasn't really any different than of their other games. It was covered by the gaming media like any other domestic release. Considering it an import seems like some weird technicality to me.

[portnoyd]

I feel the leap required to justify Sonic as American is a lot further and harder to make than the opposite because of all the loops you have to jump through in order to hold to Sonic being American while eliminating all the other things that are in the same situation. This should really be a pretty simple matter at heart and the fact that there has to be so much mental gymnastics to justify Sonic tells me something is fishy.

Clint Dyer, the guy who built the DP SMS section, worked for Sega US when Sonic was released. Maybe you should stop listening to yourself talk and think about what's said to you.

[TonyTheTiger]

Clint Dyer, the guy who built the DP SMS section, worked for Sega US when Sonic was released. Maybe you should stop listening to yourself talk and think about what's said to you.

I'm typing.

And, for the record, I googled Clint Dyer after your first post to see what you meant. An actor's IMDB page came up so I assumed you were just being a flippant prick. How unfair of me.

[Sunnyvale]

I'm kinda amazed how folks are comparing SMS game releases with DS game releases. Let's got to Atari 2600, if we're going to re-vamp a list. I think it's got about 900 too many games. Let's compare with the DS...

To complete your US DS collection, you need all pirate Pokemon carts and all homebrews. Otherwise, we need to revise the Atari 2600 list. And the NES, for that matter. Black cart of Ms Pac Man doesn't count. Or FF1. And Cheetahmen 2?!? Liscensed? Bye-bye!

Different times, different marketing strategies, different records, different laws at the time of release. Now we can split hairs all day long about what list is accurate, but Sonic is still rare as hell and people still want it.

And the first guy to drop $50 on one with the sticker way back when started this shit, not some list on DP or wherever. That just helpsdrive the price up.

Like this thread.