The truth about Panzer Dragoon Saga?

[maxlords]

Ok....much has been said about the apparent rarity of Panzer Dragoon Saga. We all know it's not a common Saturn game, but it seems like a lot of them come available online...way more than there would be if it was as rare as it's reputed to be. I've heard figures ranging from 3000-9000 on the print run, but does ANYONE know what's accurate? I've believed that it was 3000-5000 myself, due to the fact that a lot of stores I went to NEVER had it on their shelves, and I had trouble finding even ONE copy on the shelves in Southern California right after release (while I was visiting). I guess what I want to know is....what was the print run supposedly, and was there only one pressing of the game or did Sega do more than one print run? I've been hearing lately that there was more than one print run and one guy (who I'm sure is full of shit) said that he scoured Philly when it came out, bought 25 copies, and sold them all sealed on eBay for $180 each fairly recently. If the print run was as low as I've been told it was, that's gotta be impossible. So does anyone know the ACTUAL facts surrounding Panzer Dragoon Saga?

[Raedon]

the truth is it's a 4 disc game that is fun but extremely fast for an RPG.

[hamburgler]

I'm very glad that i was able to buy it when it first came out.

[GENESISNES]

wish i had one

[maxlords]

Wow..a whole bunch of useless replies. Does anyone actually KNOW anything about what I'm asking?

[video_game_addict]

Hamsters scare me?

[Kid Fenris]

I couldn't find anything on the net aside from the vague "low production run" description for Panzer Dragoon Saga, but I've heard from a game store owner (a reliable source, I know) that about 3,000 copies were made.

As for the number of pressings, Ultra Game Players Online reported waaaay back in 1998 that PD Saga went through four printings. These two pieces of info seem to disagree with each other, but that's all I know.

And just to speculate, I'd say that the production number had to be higher than 5000, since the game showed up at nearly every store in my area. I saw copies at Meijer, Toys R' Us, and other places where I didn't even expect to see Saturn games, let alone new ones. PD Saga didn't stay in stores for long, but it seemed to have a wide release for a limited-run title, at least as far as southwestern Ohio went.

[Charlie]

Here's the quick and dirty.

There is NEVER a time it's not on Ebay.

Every hardcore collector seems to have it.

I've seen tons of sealed copies (I've got one).

Even in little old Astoria, Oregon, there were two stores that had it (I originally got mine from Fred Myers). And lots of stores in Longview, WA (about an hour away from Astoria) had it in, including Wal Mart, Target, EB, and TRU.

So I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that there has to be at least 50,000 copies out there, but I lean towards 80,000. I think Shinning Force 3 had a lower production run.

UPDATE: 15 Active copies of a NTSC US Panzer Dragoon Saga on Ebay right now, and twice that have completed in the last 30 days or so.

You know... given the amount of copes of it on Ebay, you would think someone would be an IDIOT to pay over $100 for it, but I guess people are just like hamsters hitting the feeder bar. There are more copies of PSD on Ebay then there are copies of Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES. Go ahead and check.

[udisi]

I had figures somewhere that state around 10,000-12,000 copies...as for it never hitting some stores...that may be true, but I know for fact that Toys r Us had a good number of them back in the day....I would argue that Shining force 3 is much rarer, more around the 5000 range....

On the price of this game....This game is completely awsome....Not only is it a low print run, but I'd argue one of the best games of all time...it had a very original concept, which has yet to be duplicated... I'd say it's worth every penny.

[Captain Wrong]

I wish I knew, but I've heard everything everyone has said so far (except for Charlie's theory, that's an interesting thought, I disagree with your figures, but I'll agree that Shining Force 3 is rarer.) I've seen the 3,000 number, I've seen as high as 15,000, I've heard 4 print runs, etc., etc.

It blows my mind that an actual number is so difficult to asertain. Somewhere someone has to know the truth. I mean, somebody made the call.

Like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know.

(Yeah, yeah, yeah, another useless post. Wish I could shed some light here, but I'm as stumped as everyone else.)

[Wavelflack]

"So I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that there has to be at least 50,000 copies out there, but I lean towards 80,000."

Is there any method by which you arrived at these figures, or did you literally take a stab in the dark and just pick some random numbers?

Incidentally, the number I've always heard was 6,000. That was the number given while Saturn was still alive (barely), so I'm inclined to go with it, rather than internet speculation five years after the fact. Besides, that number seems to jibe with common sense:

1. The game was released AFTER the Saturn had been given numbered days, courtesy of Mr. Stolar. It didn't have to be released at all.

2. Saturn marketshare was absolutely pathetic by this point. I don't have the numbers available to me, but I'm sure someone can find them. I doubt Saturn had ANY 50,000 sellers during the last year of it's life, regardless of the title.

3. Retailers were already dumping their Saturn stuff by this point.

I could keep going, but the point is that Panzer was not a massively popular series. The game is good, but would be a niche title. To justify a large print run, you would have to follow with some heavy advertising. You've already decided that the system is dead, so you're not going to bother using the game as a savior. None of your titles, even the bigger ones, is making a dent in sales. The retail markets are pushing you out. Printing 50,000 copies of the game would be ludicrous.

Anyway, the final nail in the coffin is availability. How many retail outlets would the game be distributed in? 6,000 copies would put 5 copies each in 1,200 stores. That seems about right, doesn't it?

[Kid Fenris]

Hey, I found something after all.

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/e3news/2n.html

RPGamer refers to an initial batch of 6000 copies, with a second printing of unspecified amount to follow. Other sites mention either 5000 or 6000 copies when discussing Panzer Dragoon Saga's production run.

http://www.workingdesigns.com/rpg_cr...er_saga-02.htm

Others, however, put the game's numbers in the 10,000 copy range, which would seem credible if Sega indeed made a second batch.

And by the way, go out and buy Panzer Dragoon Orta if you like the idea of another PD Saga. Smilebit pretty much confirmed that they'd like to do a second Panzer RPG, but they probably won't make one unless Orta sells well.

[Charlie]

The Wave is likely correct. 5 copies... 1200 stores... yeah, that's about right. Although if I'm not mistaken some of the 'real' game stores (like EB or Babbages) you actually couldn't get a copy of the game unless you prepaid it. I don't remember which ones, but I heard about it in some magizine. I don't think it actually was EB because I remember seeing copies of it there when it first came out, on the shelve. Can anyone confirm that? Or am I thinking of Shinning Force?

[molnars]

There were two print runs. I don't know which is which but I do know that one of the print runs has black CD holders and the other print run has white CD holders.

[maxlords]

Ok...so I think we're agreed that there's not a 50,000 copy print run for it. I think that between 6000 and 10,000 is a fair guess, cause that would allow for the numbers of copies you see on eBay for sale at silly prices. It also makes sense that a 4000-5000 copy reprint would be done after a 6000 copy print run. I can't imagine they'd do a much smaller print run than that.

Personally, I only EVER saw it on shelves once at all and I went to a LOT of stores looking. And the one I saw is the one I bought. I would have bought one or two more copies had I seen it around, but I never did. So are there any arguments or is that the gospel now?

[samuraiX]

I always heard 5,000 total on the last releases like:
Magic Knight Rayearth
Shining Force III
-and-
Panzer Dragoon Saga

I would say that the 5,000 is possible on the SF and the MKR but 10,000-12,000 sounds like a correct run on the PDS.

[ManekiNeko]

The game's rare, but it's not THAT rare. It's total Chase the Chuckwagon syndrome here... if a less dedicated collector like myself can find two copies of a game, it's not exceedingly rare. I think it's just an issue of demand exceeding supply, and of the hype surrounding both games. People were crowing about the rarity of Panzer Dragoon Saga even when it was still on store shelves.

JR

[Six Switch]

I would lean towards 10000.Evertone seems to say 3000 to 15000 and I think I read 10000 back in the day.If only we had a connection to Sega....

[Zaxxon]

I would go with around at least 10,000 copies. Go back and look at game magazines from back then. Sega was running full page ads, back covers of magazines for this game. Why would they even bother for a game that they knew they were only going to make 5,000 or less copies of. They don't even need to advertise to sell that few. I don't recall seeing full pages ads for that flying game they released at the time or Touring Car. I had always heard that there were 5,000 copies of HotD made which was released at about the same time. I don't know if Hotd is harder to find or there's probably just much less demand for it. I saw it in EB once or twice, used. The only time I ever saw HotD was the copy I bought the day it was released. I think the real truth is that there were a lot of copies made but they never made it to store shelves. At that time retailers were liquidating a lot of videogame stock, Jaguar, 3DO, Saturn, SNES, Gen, etc. and a lot of the copies of PDS got blown out to liquidators with all the rest of the Saturn stock. I never saw a NEW copy of PDS in a store but shortly thereafter you could of bought as many copies as you wanted at toysrus.com for $20 each and it was at other online sellers sites as well. It's largely a lot of BS hype IMO. You could've bought Radiant Silvergun for $20 at any EB back then too but nobody cared. Now it's "rare" because of internet hype.

[FlashStash]

It's largely a lot of BS hype IMO.

Nope...it's called economics.

Let's say there are 5,000 copies out there of "Super Happy Happy Fun Dance Beat Revolution" for the Saturn....making it a rare game. But, as it turns out, SHHFDBR ('shif-dubber' to those in the know) is a crap game, and it was released on a bunch of other systems, and no one really wants it but the completists...and only 500 people acually want it....a low demand will equal low price.

Now we have "Panzer Dragoon Saga"...let's give it a print run of 10,000. The game is released at the end of a systems life, when no one is really looking for Saturn games. But come 2003, everyone knows what a great (if not the greatest) RPG this is. People are now collecting old games. The demand is high, so the price is high...it doesn't matter how many were available at the time of release and that you could get them for $20 anywhere....no one wanted it then! Now people do! And yes, there are always 5-10 available on eBay...but if no one wanted them, then they would not go for $150+! I bought a Viewmaster Interactive Vision system on eBay for $20. Now these show up about once a week...even less so than PDS, but they don't go for the same prices..why??? It's called supply and demand...simple economics.

Pick up any intro textbook in microeconomics and you'll see that price is a factor of BOTH supply and demand, and economic rarity only comes into play when it influences demand, meaning that demand is much greater than supply. Rarity on its own without demand is not going to affect price.

BTW, if it gives me any cred...University of Pittsburgh '94 BA in Economics and '96 MBA