XBOX360 Ban (modded consoles) class action lawsuit - update - I got my stuff back :D

[skaar]

Hey I never said I personally did not deserve to be banned

[camarotuner]

What are we arguing here? You buy a system (any system) it's yours. But Live is microsofts. When you sign up for live you have to agree to a very long TOS agreement. If you didn't read it, sucks to be you. But in there are provisions to allow microsoft to do this. If you sign up for their service, read (or ignore) the rules of that service, then complain when your violations of that service cause negative things to happen to you, you're an idiot.

This is just another example of modern american society where "it's no my fault because..." when in reality it IS that persons fault for not reading things carefully, doing whatever they feel like, then being mad when they get called on it.

Oh and as someone else has already said here, if you wanted a piece of gaming hardware that you can modify and do what you want with and no one cares, should have bought a pc. But by that same logic, if you then use that pc to sign up for a service (let's say wow) and there are specific rules in the TOS that says you can't do "X", then you do "X", you should be held accountable for being dumb enough to do it.

[j_factor]

But by that same logic, if you then use that pc to sign up for a service (let's say wow) and there are specific rules in the TOS that says you can't do "X", then you do "X", you should be held accountable for being dumb enough to do it.

But if WOW corrupted people's entire hard drives for TOS violations, I think people would be justifiably angered.

[Berserker]

What are we arguing here? You buy a system (any system) it's yours. But Live is microsofts. When you sign up for live you have to agree to a very long TOS agreement. If you didn't read it, sucks to be you. But in there are provisions to allow microsoft to do this. If you sign up for their service, read (or ignore) the rules of that service, then complain when your violations of that service cause negative things to happen to you, you're an idiot.

This is just another example of modern american society where "it's no my fault because..." when in reality it IS that persons fault for not reading things carefully, doing whatever they feel like, then being mad when they get called on it.

Oh and as someone else has already said here, if you wanted a piece of gaming hardware that you can modify and do what you want with and no one cares, should have bought a pc. But by that same logic, if you then use that pc to sign up for a service (let's say wow) and there are specific rules in the TOS that says you can't do "X", then you do "X", you should be held accountable for being dumb enough to do it.

The issue wasn't that they banned him from Live - the issue was that they corrupted his hard drive, his save files, and all the games he legitimately paid for.

No one here is saying that you shouldn't be banned from logging into Live if you violate the Live TOS. People should be held accountable for violations of the terms they agree to... but where does the boundary lie?

If you run a red light, should the cop write you a ticket, or burn your house down? Do you deserve to have your property destroyed because you did something wrong, or should the punishment fit the crime?

[Icarus Moonsight]

Violating a TOS is a breach of contract, not a crime. Willful destruction of property on the other hand...

Break TOS, and MS owes you nothing in regards to the service that the TOS covers. I'd say MS has caused damage and needs to own up for the corruption of data... but, I haven't read the license agreement for marketplace downloads. So, even then, one may not have contractual grounds... Actually, they may be contractually excluded from recovery. This is why it's important to know what you are agreeing to.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Is Microsoft doing this lock out with Controllers??

Yes. If you have a modded wired, it will disconnect from your system at night and strangle you in your sleep. If you have a wireless, it will do similar, at night, but instead pump you full of 5v current from the Lith-Ion battery until your heart stops. Good night!

[Flack]

The issue wasn't that they banned him from Live - the issue was that they corrupted his hard drive, his save files, and all the games he legitimately paid for.

No one here is saying that you shouldn't be banned from logging into Live if you violate the Live TOS. People should be held accountable for violations of the terms they agree to... but where does the boundary lie?

If you run a red light, should the cop write you a ticket, or burn your house down? Do you deserve to have your property destroyed because you did something wrong, or should the punishment fit the crime?

If you run enough red lights, they may impound your car and eventually take your license.

The crime here, if I understand it, is more than people violated the TOS for Live; by modding the 360, you have violated the license you agreed upon when you were using the 360 itself.

Not that I agree that that should be legal; I just think that'll be Microsoft's stance if this ever went to court.

[Diatribal Deity]

"Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer, and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this contract; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices."

I really do not have a clear opinion on this one way or another, but as a user I did RTFM. That last sentence really underscores the extent of their disclaimer as it specifically states that their "bullet" will ultimately prevent you from using an unauthorized hardware peripheral device regardless of the final outcome. To think they would have some type of intelligent magic bullet given the nature of their intent, would be a bit naive.

Why use smart bullets when you can just drop a nuke.

[Berserker]

(c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices."

Yeah, I figured as much. Looks like you were dead-on, Rob. If anything I guess this only illustrates what you really open yourself up to when the software and hardware you're using is controlled by a single entity.

Either buy physical, buy directly from the developer, or if no other options are available, buy through Steam, because at least that's still only software. That's my take anyway.

[Poofta!]

screw them i hope they fail. thats what they get for pirating.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Look at it this way, so many things are connective now days... Take a car. Some have built-in internet capability others have remote access features, such as On-Star. Now you buy a car, cash - clear title, and there is a license agreement (Terms of Service) that states if you replace any part outside of the official designation (discount and off brand parts, aftermarket performance parts, etc), or alter and/or install custom software (ie software tuning) - your car's start system will be permanently disabled, or repo'ed.

How does one pirate a car again? It's all misdirection, it's not anti-piracy, it's anti-property.

[Icarus Moonsight]

So the lesson to take from that is violation of property rights is fine? It didn't stop piracy, just took it out of online multiplayer and put a batch of pirates (not representative of all the booted users, but *shrug* oh well, tough crackers Nancy!) outside of LIVE service. Someone with an affected system would have to buy another to play online. If I was one, I'd get a PS3 and play those online games on it and keep my modded 360 offline. Or, not buy a new system, and just use the original 360 offline. I wouldn't buy a new 360 plus more games when I couldn't use purchased dl games on my original system. There is a principle at play here, it seems that so many are used to blindly following a rule that they will cut their own throat if the right person told them to, or made a somewhat shacky argument as to how it's 'the right thing' or even more stupid, pseudo-signed a contract to do so, if condition X occurs.

By reading this post, you have surrendered all rights of property to me. Sorry, it's a rule. I'll expect my stuff delivered by the end of the year. Trust me, I'll make a killing on resale, so it's completely ethical.

[Porksta]

Look at it this way, so many things are connective now days... Take a car. Some have built-in internet capability others have remote access features, such as On-Star. Now you buy a car, cash - clear title, and there is a license agreement (Terms of Service) that states if you replace any part outside of the official designation (discount and off brand parts, aftermarket performance parts, etc), or alter and/or install custom software (ie software tuning) - your car's start system will be permanently disabled, or repo'ed.

How does one pirate a car again? It's all misdirection, it's not anti-piracy, it's anti-property.

The thing is, cars would not do that. What happens if someone doesn't like those terms? Instead of buying the Toyota Matrix, the go to Honda and buy an Accord that doesn't have those terms. A car company knows that if they do something like put those kind of terms on a contract, you will take your business elsewhere. Microsoft is smart and realizes there is no direct alternative to a 360. So they charge whatever the market can sustain. Obviously the market is quite capable of sustaining hundred dollar 120GB hard drives. Again the only solution if you do not like Microsoft's pricing is to - any guesses? - NOT BUY FROM MICROSOFT. I just can't understand how people cannot understand that.

[Icarus Moonsight]

True enough. Call me nuts, but usually I demand that I own the things I trade my money for. Silly, I know. There are a few caveats, I have bought some DSi/WiiWare and VC stuff. But I'm sticking to things that are only available in aetherware form or where there is substantial savings involved over a used market physical copy. And thankfully, I haven't bought a 360 yet.

[Porksta]

True enough. Call me nuts, but usually I demand that I own the things I trade my money for. Silly, I know. There are a few caveats, I have bought some DSi/WiiWare and VC stuff. But I'm sticking to things that are only available in aetherware form or where there is substantial savings involved over a used market physical copy. And thankfully, I haven't bought a 360 yet.

Correct - you own the 360. It still works as a 360 should. You are also still allowed to use the hard drive. You are just no longer allowed to use Xbox Live. This is why you shouldn't try to get around rules. It always bites you in the ass.

[ScourDX]

Somewhat related Xbox360 news. With the recent Datel suing Microsoft (MS), MS banned 1 million users and now MS wants to have BBC free iplayer released to subscribed customer; MS wants absolute control of it's Xbox360.

Link

[Porksta]

Microsoft doesn't want complete control of the 360 - just of Live. Again, you are more than welcome to modify your 360 anyway you want - just do not try to access Live with it.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Correct - you own the 360. It still works as a 360 should.

If I am to understand correctly, at least as skaar pointed out, that's not the case. They corrupted his HDD. Recall how the Rootkit fiasco went down?

[Porksta]

So the 360 doesn't work? He is unable to put a disc in the drive and play Modern Warfare 2? How does a corrupted HDD affect the playability of his 360?

I have no idea what a rootkit is. From looking at Wikipedia it does some stuff that I cannot see how is related to an Xbox 360.

[j_factor]

Microsoft doesn't want complete control of the 360 - just of Live. Again, you are more than welcome to modify your 360 anyway you want - just do not try to access Live with it.

This would be fine with me if they didn't "lock in" the 360 to Live exclusively. You can't download extra content without going through Live. You can't even download a system update through the console without first having a Live account. The 360 Netflix service and stuff like that are all via Live too, and for no good reason. I mean really, what does Twitter have to do with their online gaming service? The thing has an ethernet port, but you can't simply connect to the internet with it, you can only connect to Live. They even locked out tunnelling software by design (although the Xlink Kai people managed to achieve 360 compatibility, it doesn't work well).

So the 360 doesn't work? He is unable to put a disc in the drive and play Modern Warfare 2? How does a corrupted HDD affect the playability of his 360?

The 360 also has digitally distributed games... which are stored on one's hard drive. So if you get banned, games that you paid for don't work, and you can't get them back without getting another system (since the games can only be downloaded through Live).