RetroN5: Hands on first look

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I don't really get the hype of this. My original NES, Genesis, and SNES work fine. I have a CRT TV in the basement and that still works fine too. Maybe one day when all the CRTs are dead and I have need to play the classics on an HDTV I'll be in the market for something like this.

I mean I guess do get it. It's cool but all this arguing about what it can and can't do is solved by just playing your Nintendo on a CRT.

See the middle of reply #45 on page 2. I give my thoughts as to the "point" of the RetroN5.

As to what you said about clinging onto CRTs, there is no doubt that there is a prevailing wisdom among retro gamers that CRTs are inherently better than HDTVs for retro gaming, but I think a lot of that attitude comes from the fact that analog (composite and s-video) signals look awful on HDTVs, and that some HDTVs are ill-suited for retro gaming if they lack gaming modes.

I have an Ouya, which among other things acts as a native 1080p emulation box the same as the RetroN5 promises. Playing NES or Genesis or whatever else in 1080p on a 55" screen is pure bliss. Not only does it makes each pixel bright and crystal clear, it also removes any overscan concerns, so that every last pixel is visible on your display.

Don't get me wrong, I have a fleet of CRTs in my own home as well that I love to play my retro consoles on, but let's face it - CRTs are the pits. They take up so much damn space, are so heavy to lift, and with age bring all sorts of other problems. On top of it, with devices like the Ouya, their very purpose is being threatened.

Even when I play my retro systems via RGB SCART on my CRT, those same games look far better on my HDTV in 1080p HDMI. Directly comparing the two, there's a clear winner with HDTVs.

If the Retron5 lives up to the Ouya, it could very well make retro games look better than they ever could on a CRT.

...ah, sorry - missed that bit, my bad.

Yeah I figured that was the case. No worries.

To that question of why a half-half system between real hardware or the Ouya. It's simple. It covers their ass.

If they did another system on a chip, since they're not bright enough to make one work right on their own having imported Chinese junk that's out of the question. If they went the other way of the Ouya and advertised a system that loads ROMs, I'm pretty sure they'd have lawyers up their asses quick and out of business due to legal bills from the fighting alone. You make a thing like this, even if it is a rom dumper to memory, it has to use real game carts, and by having a registry that checks for legit known carts of the period they existed, that forces the use while blocking pirates and other stuff as a side effect.

I doubt that the legality of roms is Hyperkin's motivation. Consider the AtGames Sega Genesis portables which are even fully licensed by Sega. Those things have build-in licensed games, and a few of them don't even have cartridge ports but instead offer to play Genesis roms directly from an SD card. I would guess that its more likely a marketing strategy on Hyperkin's part to use the carts to set up a niche to differenciate it from their competition, Retro-Bit and Yobo Gameware.

As to your complaints against clone hardware out of China, it's not so simple as that. 100% fully compatible NES/Famicom clones do not exist despite over two decades of various manufactures producing them. Early discrete clones would have PPUs with the wrong pallets and CPUs with reversed duty cycles causing bad audio. When NOACs began to take over, the quality of clones began to differ wildly. Some - like the TriStar/Super 8 are nearly perfect in all aspects while others like the Yobo FC Game Console are incredibly inaccurate. This has continued over the years and the dream of a perfect NOAC still isn't a reality.

The solution to fix that would be to design an FPGA solution, but that would drive up the cost immensely to around at least $150 for an NES only clone. Then factor in the other four systems also being FPGA based and you'll quickly realize that reverse engineered hardware that's 100% accurate is too cost prohibitive. Emulation makes far more sense, especially if it's Android based as Chinese companies are pumping out low cost android devices on a regular basis now.

I personally would rather have an FGPA based RetroN5 that costs $300, but that would have no chance of selling to the general public and causal gamers.

[Tanooki]

I'm aware of the atgames deal, and Sega was totally cool with that whole deal including the SD card loading or it wouldn't happen. I remember that being brought into question and looked into in the past as it was a stunner when that system first popped up. Sega is a hell of a lot more chill about their old carts than Nintendo by a long shot.

I know I simplified the whole System on a Chip setup, but the point is still that they can't be 100% and won't be, so this was a logical step to approach to do something different while still accessing carts. Atgames did it, ignorantly though, over the last year with their latest handheld revision that got a console version with a cart slot, yet the emulator annoyingly won't let a legit cart with a battery save a game! I'd take the FGPA setup as well but the price would suck and almost no one would buy that given what just an NES alone version would cost, so again the android box makes sense.

[Leo_A]

I'm aware of the atgames deal, and Sega was totally cool with that whole deal including the SD card loading or it wouldn't happen. I remember that being brought into question and looked into in the past as it was a stunner when that system first popped up. Sega is a hell of a lot more chill about their old carts than Nintendo by a long shot.

The point he's making is if this is anywhere remotely illegal, it just wouldn't be done in a mainstream product from a manufacturer (AtGames) that appears to want to hang around rather than a fly by night operator that disappears as quickly as they popped up.

Sega doesn't own all the IP that was released on the Genesis so their okay doesn't magically cover all the bases. So if there were any legality issues here (Which there isn't), it wouldn't be done and possibly grab the attention of the legal team at a publisher like EA that holds an extensive library of IP that was released for the Genesis.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Ultimately, Hyperkin has to be most concerned about their bottom line - producing a console that will appeal to the greatest number of people rather than strictly creating the best hardware possible with little regard for price or potential sales.

For most people, unlicensed and indie game support isn't even on their radar. All they'll care about is if the device runs Super Mario Bros., Megaman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Tetris and Pokemon.

I think you know this all already, so I don't mean to preach to the choir, but they'll do what they need to do to make it appeal to the masses, not the hardest of the hardcore. Just like Nintendo's been doing with their consoles for the past decade.

[genesisguy]

See the middle of reply #45 on page 2. I give my thoughts as to the "point" of the RetroN5.

As to what you said about clinging onto CRTs, there is no doubt that there is a prevailing wisdom among retro gamers that CRTs are inherently better than HDTVs for retro gaming, but I think a lot of that attitude comes from the fact that analog (composite and s-video) signals look awful on HDTVs, and that some HDTVs are ill-suited for retro gaming if they lack gaming modes.

I have an Ouya, which among other things acts as a native 1080p emulation box the same as the RetroN5 promises. Playing NES or Genesis or whatever else in 1080p on a 55" screen is pure bliss. Not only does it makes each pixel bright and crystal clear, it also removes any overscan concerns, so that every last pixel is visible on your display.

Don't get me wrong, I have a fleet of CRTs in my own home as well that I love to play my retro consoles on, but let's face it - CRTs are the pits. They take up so much damn space, are so heavy to lift, and with age bring all sorts of other problems. On top of it, with devices like the Ouya, their very purpose is being threatened.

Even when I play my retro systems via RGB SCART on my CRT, those same games look far better on my HDTV in 1080p HDMI. Directly comparing the two, there's a clear winner with HDTVs.

If the Retron5 lives up to the Ouya, it could very well make retro games look better than they ever could on a CRT.

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

[nusilver]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

[JSoup]

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

There is also the argument that not everyone cares about quality. I'm personally not bothered if my old NES and SNES games don't shine like special little stars, so long as I can see the damn screen and play the game, I'm happy.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

To both sides of the argument, I would ultimately ask: what's to prevent having both options? Keep a CRT for the authentic hardware retro consoles, and have a solution like the RetorN5 for your HDTV? Why does the RetroN5 need to replace the original hardware? Not can't it be either or? Just food for thought.

You can't play light gun games on an HDTV. That's not a big issue for most consoles, but for some, like the Master System, NES, PS1, and PS2 you block off a chunk of the library. Most of those games are good!

I would first suggest that lightgun game support is an extremely minor loss on HDTV gaming, and secondly suggest that if those kind of games really are important enough, it only serves as a reason to keep an old CRT around specifically for those kinds of games rather than use that as a reason to not get a RetroN5.

I have a game room and in my previous house had a basement but neither was conducive for having friends or family over to play. The retron 5 on my HDTV in the living room gives me the opportunity to have friends and family play retro games in the comfort of the family room without going to a basement.

This is worth the $100 price tag to me. It's another option to enjoy the games I love.

If that's your only reason to get a RetroN5, might I suggest that you consider buying an Ouya instead? As I've said, the Ouya does everythingt he RetroN5 does and more, and takes up almost no space. With a usb hub and a couple SNES or whatever else to USB controllers, you can set up multiplayer retro gaming outtings easily with the Ouya. I'm going to buy a RetroN5 myself, but not for parties. I htink the OUya is a better fit for that given its greater range at exactly the same price.

There is also the argument that not everyone cares about quality. I'm personally not bothered if my old NES and SNES games don't shine like special little stars, so long as I can see the damn screen and play the game, I'm happy.

Then I would say...lucky you. If you're perfectly happy with your current set up, then great. it means you don't have to spend any money at all, and it's completely fine if you're not interested in the RetroN5. There's a lot of things in gaming that I have no interest in either, and I'm perfectly happy ignoring things like yearly football games on the newest consoles.

Realistically, no matter what Hyperkin does, there will always be those who simply aren't interested.

[Tanooki]

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

Well there's two things to easily understand why the CRT is usually superior for old games.
1) Light Guns and other similar devices needing that style of TV will not work on anything else.
2) Lag. LCD/LED/Plasmas have this inherent lag to them as it processes the lower quality image and then scales it to fit the newer tv. Some sets handle it exceptionally well that you don't get lag, but you'll need to do a lot of research or get lucky(I lucked into one) but a lot of them lag bad enough that timing and twitch sensitive gaming say even like a basic platformer like a Mario or a Ghosts n Goblins you'll see one thing, the game is a 1/2 second off of that, and you end up in a pit time and time again.

This Retron device if it's all it's cracked up to be will perhaps remove the issue by outputing natively to HDMI, still won't allow light guns though.

[TheChristoph]

To throw my insignificant opinion on "the point" of this device... I want this for the living room. I'm bummed out that apparently it won't work with Everdrives and other flash carts. I was hoping that it would because I have my original hardware and cart collections in my game room with a nice Trinitron CRT and everything going through S-Video, but we could have this in the living room with the games on the flash carts. That goes down the old pooper if the rumors are true.

It kinda goes down the pooper anyway if this is essentially a Retrode that dumps games one at a time to an Android emulator. Doesn't that OS have a hard-coded but with audio lag? I can't deal with that.

[Gameguy]

Even if there are ways to get old systems to look good and play well on newer HDTVs, it's usually easier and cheaper to just use a CRT instead. Would you get every system modded, or use a CRT that people are giving away for free every week? Ordering an expensive upscaler, or use a free CRT? Having to search for specific HDTVs that are better compatible with old system, or pick up any CRT for free?

Usually people stick with consoles for authentic hardware experience, even using flash carts for convenience on real consoles so games will play authentic. If you just want to play games and don't care about authenticity, there is the option of using an emulator and just hooking up your PC/laptop to the TV.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

This Retron device if it's all it's cracked up to be will perhaps remove the issue by outputing natively to HDMI, still won't allow light guns though.

This is purely speculation, but Hyperkin could in theory come up with a solution for light gun support by offering a universal bluetooth light gun similar to the PS Move or Wiimote with a sensor bar. Most light games aside from the Super Scope have only a single button - the trigger - so coming up with a universal design could work with light gun games for FC, NES, SNES and Genesis. I doubt they will do so given that light gun gaming is such a minority genre, but it is possible.

To throw my insignificant opinion on "the point" of this device... I want this for the living room. I'm bummed out that apparently it won't work with Everdrives and other flash carts. I was hoping that it would because I have my original hardware and cart collections in my game room with a nice Trinitron CRT and everything going through S-Video, but we could have this in the living room with the games on the flash carts. That goes down the old pooper if the rumors are true.

If you were planning on using an emulator to run a flash cart, why not just run an emulator? What I mean by that is the alternative to the Retron5 that nobody else is talking about is the Ouya.

The Ouya and the RetroN5 are extremely similar devices. Both have an msrp of $99, both are Android based emulation powerhouses, both output 1080p HDMI only, both come with a bluetooth wireless controller and I'll bet that under the fancy skins Hyperkin will use, there's a good chance both will actually run the same Android based emulators.

The differences are that the RetorN5 will rely on carts to provide roms, whereas on the Ouya you supply your own and put them on the system's internal 8 GB storage which for running FC/NES/Gen/SNES/GB/C/A games is easily way more space than you'd ever really need.

The one advantage I'd give to the RetorN5 over the Ouya is that the RetroN5 has those native controller ports for using OEM controllers. Even so, the Ouya has a standard USB port, so you can use PC controller adapters such as an SNES to USB, Saturn to USB, or pretty much anything you'd like, as well as all manner of native USB controllers and even other bluetooth controllers such as the Sony DualShock 3.

Now I'm not necessarily avocation the Ouya over the RetroN5, especially since the RetroN5 hasn't been released yet. What I am saying is that if all you're after is to run flash carts on an emulation machine, why not simply buy an emulation machine that dispenses with the need for the flash carts altogether?

Even if there are ways to get old systems to look good and play well on newer HDTVs, it's usually easier and cheaper to just use a CRT instead. Would you get every system modded, or use a CRT that people are giving away for free every week? Ordering an expensive upscaler, or use a free CRT? Having to search for specific HDTVs that are better compatible with old system, or pick up any CRT for free?

Usually people stick with consoles for authentic hardware experience, even using flash carts for convenience on real consoles so games will play authentic. If you just want to play games and don't care about authenticity, there is the option of using an emulator and just hooking up your PC/laptop to the TV.

Back on to the CRT debate, CRTs do have their advantages, and free is definitely one of them. The last two CRTs I picked up were free, and the one before that was a legendary Wega Trinitron I got at a price I couldn't refuse. even though it was 32" and a total, total bitch to move on my own.

But as is so often the case, you get what you pay for, and CRTs have a lot of disadvantages as well. The big one is visual clarity. I'm sorry for those who don't want to hear it, but digital HD signals simply look better than analog SD signals. Retro games on emulators using native HD processing simply look better than the original SD games on an analog TV no matter what you do, even through RGB. There are rare CRT HDTVs that support HDMI, but those are few and far between.

The difference between say a CRT running Super Mario Bros. on an NES through composite vs Super Mario Bros. via the Ouya (for example) on an HDTV in 1080p is quite staggering once you see it for yourself. So staggering in fact that it really puts a dent in any argument one could offer for CRTs being better.

Still, I'm not here to claim that. That's ultimately a matter of personal preference. All I'm saying is when directly compared, HDTVs are clearly the winner in terms of visual output capabilities for retro gaming given the proper set up.

Also consider the fact that HDTVs come in ludicrous sizes, some upwards of 70". Most CRTs are below 42", unless you have one of those rear projection CRTs that are big enough to be furniture...but even then HDTVs can and often are bigger.

When I was a kid I had a 13" television to play SNES games like the Legend of Zelda Link to the Past on. Today, I can play the same game on my Ouya on a 65" Plasma that while it has a huge display. it's 1/8th as thick as a CRT and can be put in places you could never put a hulking CRT, including up on walls like you'd hang a picture.

Ultimately, I think there is still a place for CRTs for retro gamers, but to cling to them blindly ignores all the advances and benefits that come with HD gaming.

[JSoup]

If you're looking for an emulation machine and have access to a PC/USB controller, forget both systems and just use your PC.

[TheChristoph]

If you were planning on using an emulator to run a flash cart, why not just run an emulator? What I mean by that is the alternative to the Retron5 that nobody else is talking about is the Ouya.

The Ouya and the RetroN5 are extremely similar devices. Both have an msrp of $99, both are Android based emulation powerhouses, both output 1080p HDMI only, both come with a bluetooth wireless controller and I'll bet that under the fancy skins Hyperkin will use, there's a good chance both will actually run the same Android based emulators.

The differences are that the RetorN5 will rely on carts to provide roms, whereas on the Ouya you supply your own and put them on the system's internal 8 GB storage which for running FC/NES/Gen/SNES/GB/C/A games is easily way more space than you'd ever really need.

The one advantage I'd give to the RetorN5 over the Ouya is that the RetroN5 has those native controller ports for using OEM controllers. Even so, the Ouya has a standard USB port, so you can use PC controller adapters such as an SNES to USB, Saturn to USB, or pretty much anything you'd like, as well as all manner of native USB controllers and even other bluetooth controllers such as the Sony DualShock 3.

Now I'm not necessarily avocation the Ouya over the RetroN5, especially since the RetroN5 hasn't been released yet. What I am saying is that if all you're after is to run flash carts on an emulation machine, why not simply buy an emulation machine that dispenses with the need for the flash carts altogether?

Isn't the fact that this is just a box that runs emulators fairly new news? I know it was speculated when they first announced it'd do save states and the like, but I don't remember it ever really being confirmed until people got their hands on the thing. I was hoping against this.

With the knowledge that this IS an emulator box, you're right, there is no reason to choose this over something like an Ouya or Gamestick or any other number of set-top Android machines.

[nusilver]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

Also, not everybody has a basement (or even a house) for storing a CRT. That was one of the things I had to sacrifice when I moved to NYC, and I'm okay with it

[Melf]

You can't play light gun games on an HDTV. That's not a big issue for most consoles, but for some, like the Master System, NES, PS1, and PS2 you block off a chunk of the library. Most of those games are good!

[Atarileaf]

I have a game room and in my previous house had a basement but neither was conducive for having friends or family over to play. The retron 5 on my HDTV in the living room gives me the opportunity to have friends and family play retro games in the comfort of the family room without going to a basement.

This is worth the $100 price tag to me. It's another option to enjoy the games I love.

[mercuryshadow09]

You can't play light gun games on an HDTV. That's not a big issue for most consoles, but for some, like the Master System, NES, PS1, and PS2 you block off a chunk of the library. Most of those games are good!

This is the issue for me, I own two Guncon2's and pretty much every PS2 shooting game and I love them much more than the million and a half FPS shooters of today!