Master System better than the Nes & 7800

[Zoltor]

Oh yea, then there's the Startropic games(Adventure/Platformer), and Faria (Actiom/RPG. It is also one of the harder RPGs ever made, It's no Dragon Warrior 2 insanity, but It's still exstremely hard), which are great classic games.

PS. I'm also not gonna mention Indiana Jones 2, because while great, It's really a Arcade port.

I think the case is pretty much closed lol, NES was clearly the better system hands down(atleast game wise).

Yea I admit I loved a bunch of games on the SMS, but it just can't compete with all the godly games on the NES(the SMS did have good games infact, but a handful of good games can't stand up to the NES's dozens upon dozens of greats).

[Daria]

Oh yea, then there's the Startropic games(Adventure/Platformer), and Faria (Actiom/RPG. It is also one of the harder RPGs ever made, It's no Dragon Warrior 2 insanity, but It's still exstremely hard), which are great classic games.

Sega Master System has a pretty decent RPG line-up though. While it's lacking the sheer quantity of the NES, lets face it no kid grew up owning ALL the games possible. So the selection it does have stands up to the NES in terms of quality.

StarTropics - Govellius - Both Adventure Zelda types with platforming elements.
Zelda - Golden Axe Warrior - Golden Axe Warrior is a straight-up clone. But an excellent one at that.
Dragon Warrior - Phantasy Star - Both traditional menu-based RPGs.
Faria - Ys: The Vanished Omens - Both difficult action RPGs.
Ultima 3 - Miracle Warriors - Hardcore D&D clones with a distinctive western influence.
Ultima 4 - Ultima 4 (in europe anyway) - Same game.
Faxanadu - Wonderboy III: The Dragon's Trap - Side scrolling RPG.
Zelda II - Wonder boy in Monster Land - Side scrolling RPG.

[Ruudos]

Again sales speak for them selves. I don't live in Europe but I do know that the sms didn't out live the nes and you can say that, that doesn't matter that the sms is better all you want. I'm just saying that if that were the case it would have beaten out the nes and it didn't. Did they stop selling the nes in Europe because of over pricing and software issues?

They kept selling the NES and games until 1995, maybe even 1996, in Holland.
People should compare the "US market" and "Europe market" anyway, because there isn't a "Europe market". There are German, British, Scandinavian, Dutch, Italian, French, Spanish, etc markets though, but they can differ quite a lot from each other.

[buzz_n64]

Hardware- Master System.

Games that come out on all 3 systems like Double Dragon, best looking on Master system, fun but cheap conversion on NES, and bad on 7800.

Library of good games goes to the NES hands down.

[Rob2600]

Hardware- Master System.

As far as I know, not in terms of audio.

[tom]

I think the case is pretty much closed lol, NES was clearly the better system hands down(atleast game wise).


Case not closed by a long shot, SMS games were clearly of better playabilty and quality. It is the winner here.

[tom]

Library of quantity over good games goes to the NES hands down.

There, fixed that for the truth.

[Rob2600]

Case not closed by a long shot, SMS games were clearly of better playabilty and quality. It is the winner here.

I think it varies by title.

Both consoles feature great games. You can't go wrong either way, but the NES library offers more variety and more classics.

[chrisbid]

As far as I know, not in terms of audio.

the nes had more than its fair share of terrible sound and music, id call the category a push or maybe a slight advantage to the nes. in the wrong hands, neither are pleasant to listen to

[Rob2600]

the nes had more than its fair share of terrible sound and music, id call the category a push or maybe a slight advantage to the nes. in the wrong hands, neither are pleasant to listen to

Maybe I've played the wrong SMS games and watched the wrong videos, but from what I've heard, the NES has more sound channels and better audio capabilities.

Yes, there are horrible sounding NES games, but the ones that sound great blow away the SMS...again, in the games I've experienced.

[buzz_n64]

Ok, maybe the Master system had inferior sound compared to the NES, that's why in Japan they had the FM Synth in some titles to fix that, too bad the rest of the world and more games didn't get this. I know all classic collectors know what the Master System is, but I can go all around town and no one will know what the hell a Master System is, and think the Genesis was Sega's first system, while they know about the NES. Point is, Nintendo had support because of their monopolization, therefore had more, and better games. Master System and 7800 were doomed because of this, even the Turbo-g had no chance against the NES.

[timewarpgamer]

I'm still struggling to really warm up to the SMS, despite the fact that I like cheering for the underdog (i.e. my favorite 16-bit system is the Turbografx-16). With the notable exception of Phantasy Star, I can't think of any game in any genre that is superior to its NES counterparts. For what it's worth, here's the latest iteration of my greatest SMS list: http://timewarpgamer.com/top_games/sms.html. Any additions/edits/comments/recommendations are welcome.

I see that sound has been a big debate recently. I haven't yet played an SMS game where the music is truly catchy or something I'd want to have in mp3 format for easy access. What are the SMS games with the best sound?

[Arkhan]

Ultima 4 - Ultima 4 (in europe anyway) - Same game.


Nah. Same game is a stretch.

The NES one took a bootlegged Dragon Quest approach to the game, and doesn't present the adventure the same. :-/

They over consoled the game. Ultima III didn't do too bad but Ultima 4 is just goony. :)

that being said, the SMS one is more true to Ultima. no goony Dragon Quest infused happenings.

I swear I posted that in here somewhere already but i can't find it.

[Arkhan]

and dare I say, Ultima Exodus. easily the best version of Ultima III (unless you count the MSX counterpart which is better by JUST a pinch control wise)




Crazy talk.


Why's it crazy talk! What, do you prefer the CGA graphics of the DOS one? I dunno about you but 4 colors (black, gray, teal, magenta) and no music aint my bag.

Sure you can add the EGA patch w/ wavetable music, but that is a fairly recent addition (fan made) so it doesn't exactly count.

so that'd leave the other old computer versions. The C64 could POSSIBLY be said to be better, if you play it on a C128 and experience the SID music, and are ok with disk swapping like mad. :)

The NES/MSX one condensed the commands down into menus smoothly, kept the geography and story the same, and spiffed things up graphically. Plus the music is pretty catchy.

The MSX even did that for Ultima IV. A pretty nice PC port on 3.5" disks with no irritating swap fest to be had.... and MUSIC! The PC one didn't get music til someone made that VGA patch.

and the C64 version had no music unless it was on a C128.... so...!!!!

SMS/NES/MSX did ultima 3 and 4 justice!

....and dropped the ball completely with Ultima V. Oh sweet lord was it awful.

[vivaeljason]

Case not closed by a long shot, SMS games were clearly of better playabilty and quality. It is the winner here.

How can anyone possibly make that generalization?!? Seriously...blows my friggin' mind.

I like the SMS, but to say that the library of the system is "clearly" superior to the library of the NES is insane. To re-phrase what you're saying, you're saying that an "average" SMS title is always going to be a step above an "average" NES title. That may be true in some cases, but it's not always the case.

3DO games were clearly of better playability and quality than PlayStation games. It is the winner here.

Ridiculous statements FTW!

[Daria]

Nah. Same game is a stretch.

The NES one took a bootlegged Dragon Quest approach to the game, and doesn't present the adventure the same. :-/

They over consoled the game. Ultima III didn't do too bad but Ultima 4 is just goony. :)

that being said, the SMS one is more true to Ultima. no goony Dragon Quest infused happenings.

I swear I posted that in here somewhere already but i can't find it.

I haven't played SMS Ultima 4. By same game I just meant that when pairing up counterparts, Ultima 4 is best matched to... Ultima 4. I wasn't making the argument that either the NES or SMS games were better. Just that a child growing up with an SMS could have had an equally kick ass selection of RPGs as the child with the NES.

[PresidentLeever]

With the notable exception of Phantasy Star, I can't think of any game in any genre that is superior to its NES counterparts. For what it's worth, here's the latest iteration of my greatest SMS list: http://timewarpgamer.com/top_games/sms.html. Any additions/edits/comments/recommendations are welcome.

I see that sound has been a big debate recently. I haven't yet played an SMS game where the music is truly catchy or something I'd want to have in mp3 format for easy access. What are the SMS games with the best sound?

Well, I think Wonder Boy III destroys Metroid, Land of Illusion is the best 8-bit Disney game, and Kenseiden trumps both the first two Castlevanias... but maybe that's just me :)
True, you have WBIII on the Turbo also but apart from the smoother scrolling and increased color palette all the changes were for the worse.

As for sound, The Flash and Streets of Rage are pretty impressive for SN76489. My personal favs from bitd are Golvellius, Fantasy Zone, Black Belt and WBIII.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAHLsNGc2EA&feature=response_watch

A homebrew song made with a SMS tracker:
http://8bitcollective.com/music/kulor/So+Kawaii+Space+Puppy+%28Sega+Master+System%29/

[NeoZeedeater]

With the notable exception of Phantasy Star, I can't think of any game in any genre that is superior to its NES counterparts.

Wonder Boy III is better than any NES platform/adventure game by a good margin, and I agree with PresidentLeever that most of the changes to the TG16 port were for the worse..
Kenseiden is a deeper and more satisfying experience than the NES Castlevanias.
Shinobi's as good as the NES Ninja Gaidens if not better.
Bubble Bobble, Choplifter, Rampage, Paperboy, Ultima IV, and every port of a Sega arcade game (except Alien Syndrome) are way better on SMS.
Power Strike II is the best vertical shooter of the two systems or least tied with Recca. SMS R-Type's as good or better than FC Gradius II for horizontal ones.
Safari Hunt kills Duck Hunt. SMS gun games in general are much more playable than NES ones.
SMS Time Soldiers is arguably better than similar games on NES.
Psycho Fox beats its NES predecessor, Kid Kool.
The SMS remake of Impossible Mission is better than the NES' Impossible Mission II.
The SMS arguably had better racing games (Out Run series and a slightly nicer looking version of Micro Machines)
Penguin Land is a contender for best puzzle game of the era.

I'm not saying the SMS is the superior system. If I had to choose one at gunpoint I would pick the NES for the greater quantity and variety but the SMS is very comparable when it comes to "best ofs" of the 8-bit console generation, and it was best in some areas. I feel that the general lack of love for it stems mostly from ignorance or NES nostalgia bias. I owned and loved both systems back in the day.

[Dire 51]

I'm still struggling to really warm up to the SMS, despite the fact that I like cheering for the underdog (i.e. my favorite 16-bit system is the Turbografx-16). With the notable exception of Phantasy Star, I can't think of any game in any genre that is superior to its NES counterparts. For what it's worth, here's the latest iteration of my greatest SMS list: http://timewarpgamer.com/top_games/sms.html. Any additions/edits/comments/recommendations are welcome.
Kenseiden needs to be on that list. It's a truly awesome game that just doesn't get enough love. It was the closest thing you'd find on the NES to Castlevania until Master of Darkness came along.


I see that sound has been a big debate recently. I haven't yet played an SMS game where the music is truly catchy or something I'd want to have in mp3 format for easy access. What are the SMS games with the best sound?
You need to delve into the FM sound to find that out. Some don't like it, but I think it's far superior to the standard PSG sound. For example, listen to the music for Rastan in FM, it sounds really close to the original arcade. With PSG sound, it's not bad, but it lacks that near-arcade quality.

[Arkhan]

I haven't played SMS Ultima 4. By same game I just meant that when pairing up counterparts, Ultima 4 is best matched to... Ultima 4. I wasn't making the argument that either the NES or SMS games were better. Just that a child growing up with an SMS could have had an equally kick ass selection of RPGs as the child with the NES.

Oh, yeah, I know :)

I was just sayin' since im addicted to Ultima like its meth, that the NES one isnt the same game even if it has the same name :). You can definitely tell they wanted to make it as similar to the hit RPGs as possible instead of letting its Ultima-ness reign supreme.

[Daria]

Oh, yeah, I know :)

I was just sayin' since im addicted to Ultima like its meth, that the NES one isnt the same game even if it has the same name :). You can definitely tell they wanted to make it as similar to the hit RPGs as possible instead of letting its Ultima-ness reign supreme.

It's ok. You like the NES version of Ultima 3. Which makes you awesome in my book. :P

[Arkhan]

It's ok. You like the NES version of Ultima 3. Which makes you awesome in my book. :P

yes, compared to the DOS one with 4 colors, no music, and equally robotic dialogue ... why not play the NES one!


ever try the MSX Ultima IV? Its in Japanese but its prettttty awesome.

[j_factor]

Why's it crazy talk! What, do you prefer the CGA graphics of the DOS one? I dunno about you but 4 colors (black, gray, teal, magenta) and no music aint my bag.

Sure you can add the EGA patch w/ wavetable music, but that is a fairly recent addition (fan made) so it doesn't exactly count.

so that'd leave the other old computer versions. The C64 could POSSIBLY be said to be better, if you play it on a C128 and experience the SID music, and are ok with disk swapping like mad. :)

The NES/MSX one condensed the commands down into menus smoothly, kept the geography and story the same, and spiffed things up graphically. Plus the music is pretty catchy.

The MSX even did that for Ultima IV. A pretty nice PC port on 3.5" disks with no irritating swap fest to be had.... and MUSIC! The PC one didn't get music til someone made that VGA patch.

and the C64 version had no music unless it was on a C128.... so...!!!!

SMS/NES/MSX did ultima 3 and 4 justice!

....and dropped the ball completely with Ultima V. Oh sweet lord was it awful.

Uh... I don't know why you even brought up DOS. DOS games of that era sucked ass in general, and they are the worst versions of Ultima III and IV. There are other ports of Ultima III that are better. In particular, the Amiga and Atari ST ports were preferable, due to supporting mouse input. They were also on a single disk, so no swapping. Aside from those, there's a much later Macintosh version with upgraded graphics and sound, although it kind of doesn't count. I think there might be an FM Towns version as well.

The NES version of Ultima III isn't terrible by any means, but it's kind of... weird.

And by the way, Ultima III for C64 has the full music on a regular C64. The C128 didn't even exist when Ultima III came out. You're thinking of Ultima V.

[kupomogli]

The NES version of Ultima III isn't terrible by any means, but it's kind of... weird.

But it's got that one place where you can be cheap and raise all your stats to max and have a godlike Ranger class.

I've never cheated on Ultima Exodus by using a Game Genie, but I sure created a lot of characters, characters who started with 100gp which I took from them gave to my main team and then deleted. Rock, Paper, Scissors was also cool, who doesn't love a completely random game where you bet an amount of money and get the same amount and have a 33% chance of both winning and losing?

I enjoyed it back then, probably wouldn't much so now, but I couldn't say, haven't played it in a long time. I know I did like Quest of the Avatar more. False Prophet on PC and SNES is better than both.

[Arkhan]

Uh... I don't know why you even brought up DOS. DOS games of that era sucked ass in general, and they are the worst versions of Ultima III and IV. There are other ports of Ultima III that are better. In particular, the Amiga and Atari ST ports were preferable, due to supporting mouse input.

I dont know as far as DOS being the worst. Its a moot point basically.

Its not like the graphics were superb on ANY of them since they're all so old, and the color choices for some variants are just bad all around. Its basically the same exact graphics on each machine displayed in that machines color palette. Its splitting hairs really. Choose your favorite color. If you were used to your specific computer at the time, no other machine offered more than what you were already getting. Except for maybe the allure of some bright ass coppertones if you werent already on an Amiga

What the DOS one lacks in color pizazz, it makes up for in being the smoothest playing of the old computers. ... which still doesn't help with those awful colors. and in the end once you add the EGA / VGA patches and wavetable music to the DOS ones, they quickly become the best of the computer ones. Thank god for fan patches!

I never liked the addition of mouse input for the tile-based Ultima games. It seems kind of counter intuitive, like when they moused up Temple of Apshai. Doesnt feel right. For me at least. They really MOUSED it up. man. that was the corniest joke of the year. :)

the Ultima 1 for PC is awesome... :)



Aside from those, there's a much later Macintosh version with upgraded graphics and sound, although it kind of doesn't count. I think there might be an FM Towns version as well.


Yeah that recent mac port/upgrade was very awesome, especially since it had all the old games tilesets available in the options. But yeah im only counting commercial releases from OSI.

I have mixed feelings about the FM Towns games. That Ultima trilogy set is pretty cool but something about the graphics urks me sometimes. They're great if you have an FM towns, but otherwise aren't monumental enough to be sought out. Just like how any one computer version isn't supremely better than the other....


Now on the otherhand, the NES/MSX one:


The NES version of Ultima III isn't terrible by any means, but it's kind of... weird.


I always thought the graphics were nice, the animations were smooth, and the music was well done. It has it's weird-quirky-consolized style too, which ended up working out nice. It offers the same exact story and experience as the PC counterparts but brings a different approach to the game. It's at times more playable, and visually/sonically offers much more.



And by the way, Ultima III for C64 has the full music on a regular C64. The C128 didn't even exist when Ultima III came out. You're thinking of Ultima V.

Oh. I only ever played them all on a C128 and since I played Ultima V the most, when I tried it on a C64 and got no music, I figured they all were like that.

Theyre all too brutal to sit through on the C= machines anyway. The disk swaps are too much for me. Thats what I get for being born in '88



False Prophet on PC and SNES is better than both.
Try it on the C64. You'll want to end your life.


But it's got that one place where you can be cheap and raise all your stats to max and have a godlike Ranger class.

They all have that! :)

[tom]

Ultima series is best on Apple ][, Atari 8-bit and later on C-64/128...in that order. After Ultima 6 the series sucked. Except Ultima Underworld series.

I agree with the other one, USA RPGs on consoles were kinda weird, I never enjoyed them, be it Wizardry, Ultima, Gold box or whatever....they always played like a cut-down verion.

[tom]

How can anyone possibly make that generalization?!? Seriously...blows my friggin' mind.

Ridiculous statements FTW!

Exactly, but the same goes for Zoltor NES generalization. Way ridiculous statement. Seriously...blows my friggin' mind too...Although I don't have a friggin mind, but an excellent one!

As I said before, NES = more quantity before quality. SMS, lesser library, better games, especially the European-only releases....you have to play those before you can judge.....(watching 2 minutes on youTube doesn't count)

Even the packing with SMS was better, sturdy plastic like Genesis games.

.

[Arkhan]

Ultima series is best on Apple ][, Atari 8-bit and later on C-64/128...in that order. After Ultima 6 the series sucked. Except Ultima Underworld series.

They're the same damn game on those 3 machines. Depending on how you feel about each ones color palette....if you made them all black and white you'd barely be able to tell the difference!

And, what was wrong with Ultima VII!? Yeah Pagan was an incomplete clusterfark, but Ultima VII, man!

8 had such a nice setting and story, but the gameplay was clunky, and there were some obviously rushed parts.

At least they perfected Ultima VII-IX's general game style with Ultima Online. :)


I agree with the other one, USA RPGs on consoles were kinda weird, I never enjoyed them, be it Wizardry, Ultima, Gold box or whatever....they always played like a cut-down verion.

man, the SNES ultimas were all gimped, and Pool of Radiance on NES was awful

[Ricochet]

I've always preferred the Master System's sound. The square waves just seem fuller and prettier than NES's tinselled waveforms. I recommend anyone pull up Ys on an emulator, and, just listening to the title screen, tell me there's any music more beautiful on an 8-bit platform.

[Arkhan]

I've always preferred the Master System's sound. The square waves just seem fuller and prettier than NES's tinselled waveforms. I recommend anyone pull up Ys on an emulator, and, just listening to the title screen, tell me there's any music more beautiful on an 8-bit platform.

Ys is nice, but ah... are we counting the MSX? or the Japanese SMS w/ FM?....

I could think of a fistful of stuff that trounces the western SMS Ys music :)

8-bit platform wise.

[tom]

Sure, the 'western' C64 SID stuff is always nicer than NES music.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just hopping in here to note that Tom's trolling is getting pretty desperate.

[tom]

Just hopping in here to note that Tom's trolling is getting pretty desperate.

Nice try but no cigar, keep on hopping.

[Arkhan]

Sure, the 'western' C64 SID stuff is always nicer than NES music.

I wasn't talking about the SID stuff, numbnuts.

I was more talkin about the MSX's PSG tunes.

Sa Zi Ri comes to mind.

then if you factor in the SCC chip or FM, its even better.

not saying Ys is bad, just there are better things.

The FM Ys is pretty jawesome though.

[tom]

I wasn't talking about the SID stuff, numbnuts.
.

So what, I was, 8-bit platform wise.

Namecalling always the first sign of 'getting kinda desperate', don't you think?

[Arkhan]

hahaha since when is numbnuts namecalling.

That craps like commonplace!

im confused.

but, the SID isn't always nicer than the NES by default. The SID while being a nice chip suffers from blaring SFX overpowering the music, or the music being totally disastrous.

Contra NES vs Contra C64. :)

[tom]

hahaha since when is numbnuts namecalling.
. :)

Maybe it's a compliment, then I am flattered, of course.

Back to SMS
I urge any USAers to try some decent European-only SMS releases on SMS machines, like I played US-only NES releases back in the days.....only after doing so you are eligible to make an honest comparison.

[GameBoyGeek]

Argue all you want that sms is better more powerful superior prettier whatever you want to the NES the fact still stands that the NES was and is better than the sms. You keep saying quantity over quality when you are failing to see the fact in that very statement. The Game Gear was a great system. However Nintendo had more money and more games to put into it. Quantity right there. Now looking at the games yes the library compared to the Game boy was much smaller but they games on the game gear were hit and miss. Same as the game boy BUT they had more games for that system MANY of them were BETTER QUALITY maybe not in graphics but in game play that's where my stand is and what I mean when I say i get tired of people buying systems these days because the graphics "are so purdy hu hu" Its annoying to turn on G4 or screwattack and here people bitch that the Wii is inferior to the ps3 but the ps3 cant hold a candle to the xbox....just pick a system or pick all of them and PLAY THE FUCKING GAMES. It doesn't matter.

Sales are what makes or breaks a system or anything for that matter. If a system doesn't sell then it is discontinued...look at the N-Gage case in point. So tom I see your point and you are 100% entitled to your opinion that's what we are taught in this country "not bashing yours btw" as I'm sure thats what you were taught there. But the fact remains Nintendo out sold sms it died Nintendo is still around sega no longer makes systems. There marketing wasn't good and their systems couldn't hold up to the competition.

Make any argument you want post the sales of systems for that year if you want I don't care. The sms had some amazing games and I'm sure it had some great PAL only games I don't know I haven't played them and I don't care enough to play them and don't throw the "you haven't played them" argument at me because again i don't care. Sales speak for them selves.

For the record I know the Wii isn't doing well and I know that Nintendo has gone down over the years about about the bankruptcy stuff so don't ok. I know. Sales don't make great games I know that but people in the long run at the time went with Nintendo because they were told and in many cases shown that it was the better system yeah they had more money and that plays into it too. You bet if sega had the money that Nintendo had to make as much stuff for there system and games back then, then yeah you would have seen a boom in sega's marketing and in the quantity of there products which they could not deliver.

[Arkhan]

I think if you want your argumentative statement to appear valid, you should fix that "Gamer Gear" and make it say Game Gear. :) Just sayin!


and as far as Im concerned sales wise, who cares about em!

Its all about me when I buy a system and games. Not which one has the best looking bar graph.

[GameBoyGeek]

I think if you want your argumentative statement to appear valid, you should fix that "Gamer Gear" and make it say Game Gear. :) Just sayin!


and as far as Im concerned sales wise, who cares about em!

Its all about me when I buy a system and games. Not which one has the best looking bar graph.

I can also agree to that and thank you for pointing out the Gamer gear thing. i try to keep my spelling as spot on as I can. But in any event if that's the one thing that throws my validity off then I'm wasting my time lol.

[DracIsBack]

7800 games are interesting because the machine allowed for developers to put custom graphics and sound chips in the carts, which allowed for one hell of an Atari game.

There are a couple of 7800 games with sound chips (Ballblazer and Commando) but no 7800 games whatsoever feature additional graphics chips. The difference you see there is a function of effort and art direction.

As for the system comparisons, I had a 7800 and and SMS as a kid ... fond memories of both. And there are sooo many good NES games, that I just keep all three now.

[Breetai]

Argue all you want that sms is better more powerful superior prettier whatever you want to the NES the fact still stands that the NES was and is better than the sms. You keep saying quantity over quality when you are failing to see the fact in that very statement. The Game Gear was a great system. However Nintendo had more money and more games to put into it. Quantity right there. Now looking at the games yes the library compared to the Game boy was much smaller but they games on the game gear were hit and miss. Same as the game boy BUT they had more games for that system MANY of them were BETTER QUALITY maybe not in graphics but in game play that's where my stand is and what I mean when I say i get tired of people buying systems these days because the graphics "are so purdy hu hu" Its annoying to turn on G4 or screwattack and here people bitch that the Wii is inferior to the ps3 but the ps3 cant hold a candle to the xbox....just pick a system or pick all of them and PLAY THE FUCKING GAMES. It doesn't matter.

Sales are what makes or breaks a system or anything for that matter. If a system doesn't sell then it is discontinued...look at the N-Gage case in point. So tom I see your point and you are 100% entitled to your opinion that's what we are taught in this country "not bashing yours btw" as I'm sure thats what you were taught there. But the fact remains Nintendo out sold sms it died Nintendo is still around sega no longer makes systems. There marketing wasn't good and their systems couldn't hold up to the competition.

Make any argument you want post the sales of systems for that year if you want I don't care. The sms had some amazing games and I'm sure it had some great PAL only games I don't know I haven't played them and I don't care enough to play them and don't throw the "you haven't played them" argument at me because again i don't care. Sales speak for them selves.

For the record I know the Wii isn't doing well and I know that Nintendo has gone down over the years about about the bankruptcy stuff so don't ok. I know. Sales don't make great games I know that but people in the long run at the time went with Nintendo because they were told and in many cases shown that it was the better system yeah they had more money and that plays into it too. You bet if sega had the money that Nintendo had to make as much stuff for there system and games back then, then yeah you would have seen a boom in sega's marketing and in the quantity of there products which they could not deliver.Post of the day! Urzu402 has some catching up to do.

I do love the internet. :)

[tom]

Post of the day! Urzu402 has some catching up to do.

I do love the internet. :)

Made my day too, what was he talking about?

[VG_Maniac]

There's a reason why the Master System couldn't touch the NES back in the 80's...the NES had more games, and it had better games. Perhaps the Master System would have been equal or even better if Nintendo had not put all those strict rules into place with regards to third party companies...but that's just how it happened, and the NES is the king of the 8-bit era.

[ButtonMasher123]

There's a reason why the Master System couldn't touch the NES back in the 80's...the NES had more games, and it had better games. Perhaps the Master System would have been equal or even better if Nintendo had not put all those strict rules into place with regards to third party companies...but that's just how it happened, and the NES is the king of the 8-bit era.

This is how I feel as well. It seems like all the arguments against Nintendo here are attacking Nintendo as a company instead of their lineup of games. No matter how shady Nintendo was with their practices, you can't deny the greatness of their exclusive third party developers.

Konami, Capcom, Taito, and Sunsoft made a lot of the greatest games of the 80's and early 90's. I find it hard to believe that anyone that could be into video games and not like something these third party developers made.

This whole argument is extremely dumb to me. Of course the NES is better than the SMS. They had way more games being made and despite what some people are saying in this thread a lot of them were pretty good. I find it funny how the people in the Master Systems corner are digging deep for gems in their library when no one has even mentioned all the great games that the NES has that on one has heard of.

The NES had Little Samson, GI Joe, Kickmaster, RC Pro Am II, Gun Nac, Power Blade, Journey To Silius, Super Spy Hunter, and plenty more that I don't feel like listing. When you really consider all the games I think the Master System loses even if you want to do a quality vs quantity argument.

I think rather than having a NES vs Master System argument we should have be having a debate about who had the best first party games between Nintendo and Sega. That would be a lot more interesting. For the record I owned both systems as a kid and I loved them both.

[j_factor]

This whole argument is extremely dumb to me. Of course the NES is better than the SMS. They had way more games being made and despite what some people are saying in this thread a lot of them were pretty good.

By that logic, I hereby declare Commodore 64 to be immensely superior to NES, and decree that any argument otherwise is extremely dumb.

Having more games in its time is a reflection (and not so much a cause) of its higher level of popularity, combined with some other factors. But if the most games equaled the best system, everyone would have the same preference. Obviously this isn't the case. I mean there are people who prefer N64 to Playstation. I disagree with them pretty strongly, but I'm not about to say, "Playstation had way more games, therefore you're wrong." It doesn't work that way.

[ButtonMasher123]

By that logic, I hereby declare Commodore 64 to be immensely superior to NES, and decree that any argument otherwise is extremely dumb.

Having more games in its time is a reflection (and not so much a cause) of its higher level of popularity, combined with some other factors. But if the most games equaled the best system, everyone would have the same preference. Obviously this isn't the case. I mean there are people who prefer N64 to Playstation. I disagree with them pretty strongly, but I'm not about to say, "Playstation had way more games, therefore you're wrong." It doesn't work that way.

Did you even read what I wrote? The last part of my quote from your reply said that the NES had way more games AND despite what some people are saying, most of those games are pretty good. A lot people are were using the argument that the NES had a bad ratio of good games to crap games and I was saying that is wrong.

More games definitely do not mean a better system. The Sega Genesis had a huge library of games too, but most of them were yearly sports games or weak fighting games/beat em up clones making the Genesis have a poor ratio of good games to bad games

[j_factor]

Did you even read what I wrote? The last part of my quote from your reply said that the NES had way more games AND despite what some people are saying, most of those games are pretty good.

Yeah, I read what you wrote. I stand by my comment. Commodore 64 is far superior to the NES, because it had way more games, and contrary to what some might say, a lot of them were pretty good. Any assertion otherwise is extremely dumb.

You saying "a lot of them were pretty good", doesn't make it indisputable. Some people don't agree with that, and it's not "extremely dumb".


A lot people are were using the argument that the NES had a bad ratio of good games to crap games and I was saying that is wrong.

I missed the part where gaming preferences were ordained as right and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

[DracIsBack]

Like what you like folks.

No one who loves the SMS is going to convince someone who loves the NES to abandon their favorite system or someone who loves the NES to abandon the SMS.

[ButtonMasher123]

Yeah, I read what you wrote. I stand by my comment. Commodore 64 is far superior to the NES, because it had way more games, and contrary to what some might say, a lot of them were pretty good. Any assertion otherwise is extremely dumb.

You saying "a lot of them were pretty good", doesn't make it indisputable. Some people don't agree with that, and it's not "extremely dumb".



I missed the part where gaming preferences were ordained as right and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

Say what you want but I wrote five paragraphs worth of information explaining the reasons for why I felt the way I felt. I don't need you taking one line from those five paragraphs out of context and turning it into a entire argument against me.

And if people take anything I say or someone else says as fact than that is their problem not mine. I assume automatically that everything said on a message board is opinion based and to be taken with a grain of salt. That's how I feel everyone should approach these matters in my opinion.

[Kiddo]

I myself have actually seriously tried to play SMS games (Dreamcast emulation setup, it seems perfect from what I can tell), but could never get into a single title that didn't have a Game Gear version which was arguably better.
My guess would be that I feel none of the old software ages well at all, while the Game Gear, based on similar hardware, had titles which I felt aged better.

[DracIsBack]

I missed the part where gaming preferences were ordained as right and wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

The joys of discussion forums. People like to express their personal, subjective opinions as though they are 'facts'. In my history on forums, number one cause of flame wars is this. People forget the "in my opinion", "I preferred", "I didn't like" etc and say, "this sucks", "this is better", "nothing is good on that" and the flames usually start. :onfire:

[Arkhan]

what was that one quote.

Never apologize for your reading interests.


I think that quote is relevant.:pimp:

[Cafeman]

Another BUMP. I just got acquired my first Sega Master System. Not too many games yet, will need to check the net. The Phaser works well but it didn't come with 3D glasses.

I've been searching for discussions about Master System; I had previously ignored it completely. I never owned an NES either - those mid-late-80's years, I wasnt' into games that much.

Anyway, I think right from the first couple of minutes, I was pleased by the console's visuals and sounds compared to NES and older consoles. But it isn't much different from NES to my eyes. I use a Genesis 6-button controller, not the original ones.

I got 2 Phaser games - Safari Hunt and Gangster Town. Me & my boys found them to be pretty fun. thankfully I still have a CRT for my main gaming.

Also got Outrun, Hang On (I love all versions of these games and found it to be a real treat to see the Master System versions), Phantasy Star, Time soldiers, Great Golf (similar but not as good as Genesis Arnold Palmer ,to me), Choplifter (best version I've played), Pro-wrestling , Thunder Blade, and Double Dragon (these last 3 are fun in a dated-80's kind of way).

It seems already that I'll be needing to find Brazil or UK games to fill up my library.

I like the 2-tone sound when the system turns on, too. That is all.

[sheath]

Way back in 1988 with one hundred one dollar bills from mowing lawns in hand I got the chance to compare the NES and Master System side by side in a store. I had played nothing but NES at friend's houses basically since the previous Christmas and I had not become interested enough in one up until that summer.

My foster brother had introduced me to Arcades that Spring, and I was absolutely hooked on After Burner, Double Dragon, and other great Arcade titles just kept showing up. Sega's Master System commercials were actually airing in San Antonio, or I would not have known about the system. Once I had earned enough money though I had basically decided to buy an NES so I could play the upcoming Robocop adaptation and Metroid.

I played Quartet, After Burner, Wonderboy and Space Harrier on the Master System in the specialty electronics shop my Dad had found. Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt were playing on the NES right next to it, I had played them before. The Master System games were obviously technically superior and much more "Arcade-like" to my 11 year old observation.

While I weighed the options, and potential peer pressure for buying something different, the Sega-Scope 3D glasses were what tipped the scales. Missile Defense 3-D had fricking rockets flying at me and I could shoot them with what looked like a futuristic laser pistol (I hadn't seen Zillion yet). Walking out that day with a Master System became a no-brainer.

No worries though, I ended up picking up an NES the next year and then selling them both to get a TG16 the year after that.

[Greg2600]

Cafeman, I replied with some perhaps helpful links for you on AtariAge.

Personally, I think the SMS had slightly better graphics than NES, although the sound (non-Japan no FM) was not nearly as good. Master System 3D is pretty cool on some games, that's a plus, and the phaser games are about even. NES hardware was much more reliable and of better quality, without question. Most importantly, NES had better game developers, and that was the and still is the key. Their hard handed tactics of exclusive releases were crushing to the Master System. SMS had none of the incredible Capcom, Konami/Ultra, Jaleco, Sunsoft, etc. games. And the sports games usually were no contest. Putting "Great" on the title? Um, no.

But I still find the SMS to be a really good console with good games. Atari 7800 on the other hand??? If you're not into the classic 2600/arcade era stuff, it's close to worthless. The system graphics are poor and the sound is of course a joke. Now I know people will say that's because nobody utilized the graphic power or included the pokey sound chip on the carts. Well, no they didn't, that's why it stunk back then. Any attempts currently, such as the XM Module being designed, don't count. I'm sure someone could make a module for the SMS and NES that would be stupendous, but they haven't and won't. There's no reason to, that's the difference. Don't get me wrong, beyond the sound limitations, the classic games show well on the 7800, but in the end, it's just a sooped up 2600.

[Edmond Dantes]

Umm, I'm coming in a little late here, but...

I can't help but notice most of the "Classic SMS Games" listed on the first page (at least, the ones I recognized) were usually available in superior form on other systems.

I can't imagine playing the original King's Quest on a console.

[sheath]

I played King's Quest extensively on a computer while I was a captive audience at a relative's house. I enjoy it much more on the Master System due to the control pad. As near as I can recall, the graphics and sound are virtually identical. In fact, I intend to break my boy in to Adventure gaming using the Master System version of King's Quest.

[retroman]

I too love the Master System, and think that it did have better graphics, and this is from someone who had both as a kid...NES wins..sorry much more and better games.

[Cafeman]

Cafeman, I replied with some perhaps helpful links for you on AtariAge.
Yep, I just read that actually.




But I still find the SMS to be a really good console with good games. Atari 7800 on the other hand??? If you're not into the classic 2600/arcade era stuff, it's close to worthless. The system graphics are poor and the sound is of course a joke. Now I know people will say that's because nobody utilized the graphic power or included the pokey sound chip on the carts. Well, no they didn't, that's why it stunk back then. ... Don't get me wrong, beyond the sound limitations, the classic games show well on the 7800, but in the end, it's just a sooped up 2600.

I think the 7800 is the most underwhelming system I've ever purchased. I remember seeing it on store shelves around 1986 or so, and marveling a bit at old titles like Asteroids, yet now they had 3d-appearing asteroids with craggy details ... but the system's library is so poor that only Food Fight really keeps me owning the system. Many of its better games I already owned and played to death on 5200 or 2600.

Honestly, after 5200 , I lost interest in gaming until Genesis. 7800, Master System, NES, they mostly didn't interest me and still don't. With some exceptions - love NES Excitebike and Punch Out and a few others.

The Master System NA library seems pretty underwhelming to me right now in 2011, but I'd have LOVED to have owned the system in the 80's .. great versions of Hang On, Outrun and a few others would have been quite fun. It actually made me dig out my Genesis and I've been playing it more today. I wanted to compare some games, but to my dismay, I can't find half the games I used own .. so I'm heading out to The Exchange later to see what I can find.

[Emuaust]

I think, as Ive stated so many times before on these boards, the view that the sms at a lack of great games is NTSC biased, it was an amazing console with some great software in PAL land and while my view might be through rose coloured glasses, I would take the SMS over the NES every day.

[spiffyone]

Personally, I think the SMS had slightly better graphics than NES, although the sound (non-Japan no FM) was not nearly as good. Master System 3D is pretty cool on some games, that's a plus, and the phaser games are about even.

Eh...I think SMS had much better graphics than NES. Color palette was smaller, technically, but the amount of colors onscreen were larger and it really showed in games like Alex Kidd in Miracle World and Phantasy Star.

In motion, however, SMS games suffered from quite a bit of flicker (see Double Dragon). This did get annoying.

As for the light gun games...no...SMS had the better gun games. As much as Duck Hunt, Hogan's Alley, Gotcha, etc. are good, Missile Defense 3D takes the cake, and that game came with my SMS (the 3D set up). And Gangster Town (shot their souls for bonus points!) were great too.


NES hardware was much more reliable and of better quality, without question.

O_O

...are you out of your ever-lovin' mind?

The NES hardware and "reliable" do NOT belong in the same sentence. Zero insertion force, anyone? Blinking reset light, anyone?

None of that happened on SMS. The hardware was FAR better put together.

I mean, part of the experience of gaming on NES BitD was spending about 15 minutes getting the damned games to work, ritually blowing on the cartridge (it sounds dirty because it is dirty when ya think of it ;)), and then crying when the damned thing would randomly reset just as ya got to the last stage.

Reliable my ass.

NES did have the better 3rd party support, no question. But there's no question in my mind that Sega had all around more talented developers than Nintendo back then right into the Saturn days (which were not their best days). Sega had to basically support SMS by themselves, same deal with Saturn. In that light, hell of a job.

But no one could beat Nintendo with that 3rd party line up. Same deal with Sony back the gens previous to this one.

As for 7800...a wee bit too harsh, you were, and not entirely factual.

For one, we can't ignore that no one really pushed the system because that's a fact. They didn't. Not enough 3rd party developers due to Nintendo tactics, no internal dev teams like Sega had because of tight purse strings from the Tramiels. It's the ultimate "what could've been" system, IMHO.

As for the XM module "not counting", that's kinda silly, as all the XM module does is add sound chips and RAM which could've been add stuff that could've been added to the cartridges themselves had Tramiel not been so cheap.

And, btw, adding stuff to the cartridges is exactly what Nintendo and some 3rd parties did with NES and, later, SNES games. Should we not count the SuperFX chip games on SNES now because it isn't really "stock" hardware? The XM adds a bit too much RAM, IMHO, but in light of the fact that some NES and SNES had extra processors in their cartridges helping pull off things not possible on stock hardware, I think a pass should be given. Especially when the purpose of the XM module is to open up capabilities that could've been there on cartridges but for a lower price for developers and retro gamers.

Basically instead of adding the extra hardware to each individual cartridge, driving up prices for developers and consumers, they've just made an add on so they can have "normal" cartridges interface with it instead of having to deal with chip shortages, rising prices, etc for manufacturing individual carts. That's what XM does. It adds POKEY and RAM which could've been added to the carts themselves. It doesn't "cheat" that much at all no more than SuperFX did on SNES.


Don't get me wrong, beyond the sound limitations, the classic games show well on the 7800, but in the end, it's just a sooped up 2600.

Well, you kinda are wrong. That Maria GPU in 7800 is VASTLY different and more powerful than any Atari hardware prior to it, and quite different than any hardware before it as well outside of arcade boards. Does it have the CPU and TIA chips in common with 2600? Sure. The CPU is "souped up" from 2600, I'll give you that, but the graphics chip is an entirely different beast altogether.

Saying 7800 is a "souped up" 2600 is like saying Genesis/MegaDrive is a "souped up" SMS because it has the Z80 processor found in SMS as a sound controller and has SMS instructions on the VDPs and goes into SMS mode when an SMS cartridge is inserted.

[tom]

Well, it's Greg2600, huge 'mr-Nintendo-can-do-no-wrong guy', watcha gonna say?

[sheath]

The view that the Master System had a lack of great games is just plain biased. If you wanted Nintendo, or their third parties, to make your games you had to buy an NES. If you wanted Sega, or what third parties they could manage, to make your games you bought a Master System. Also if you wanted Master System games to continue along over here after 1990 you had to import.

As for the graphics, I generally felt that few SMS games were all that well optimized. Audio left me flat just as often after 1989. After Burner doesn't even have throttle control and Action Fighter's music annoys me out of loving the game. Yet I was initiated to shooters by After Burner, Space Harrier and R-type on SMS.

I may have played Super Mario Bros. and Contra at friend's houses, but I played the hell out of Wonderboy and Quartet after I bought my Master System. Marksman Shooting and Trap Shooting really is second to none among light gun games.

I could go on, but forums and long posts don't mix, too late for that already.

[Black_Tiger]

I think that the SMS/Mark III is similar to the TG-16/PCE, in that people that don't think it holds up well against the competition both aren't very familiar with the full library and forgive too many flaws of their preferred console(s) "classic" games due to nostalgia and popular opinion.

[fishsandwich]

This thread takes me back to junior high school. We did not come up with a clear winner back then, either.

!

[Cafeman]

I've picked up about 25 used Master System games since I bought the system last week. My favorites so far:

Fantasy Zone 2 -- colorful, fun, challenging. Love the warps and the concept of buying upgrades each level from the store.

World Grand Prix -- its like Pole Position III and buttery smooth framerate.

Outrun and Hang On - good ports of Suzuki-sans' classics, especially considering the system's 8-bitness.

Phantasy Star - blows away most ever other game; looks like an early Genesis game to me.

[Greg2600]

Well, it's Greg2600, huge 'mr-Nintendo-can-do-no-wrong guy', watcha gonna say?
Uh, since you know me so well, perhaps you can recite the number of times I praised just about anything regarding the Game Cube or Wii? Good luck finding them, because you won't. I simply don't like the Wii at all, don't like what it stands for (lack of technological progress), and don't care for motion control. You might also find posts where I blasted Nintendo for monopolistic practices.

However, with regards to 8-bit gaming, sorry, the NES was the best. I've played them all, and the NES has the best games for many genres. Find me anything on the 7800/SMS that tops Metroid, Punch out, Zelda, SMB3 (or the first one or heck Dr. Mario), Castlevania, Mega Man, Tecmo Bowl, Baseball Stars, Life Force, TMNT 2....I could go on for awhile. Look, regardless of why the NES got the best games, and I agree the practices weren't fair, it did.

It's that same reason why I am not a believer in retconning game history with what-if's. They don't matter. Upgrades done to classic systems now, while they often may be really cool, do not count. It's a great idea, but it doesn't count in any classic discussion. If I bought a 1969 Pontiac Trans Am, am I going to keep everything original if I were to drive it alot? No, I wouldn't want to be killed in a crash, so I'd change the braking system amongst other things. But then I can't say my '69 is better than your original '68 Shelby Mustang for that reason, because it makes no historical sense.

As for hardware, the SMS D-pad was not well constructed compared to the NES, and the 7800's is hideous.

Again, the SMS hardware was superior to either the NES or the 7800, but the resulting library of games were not. The Master System games, and I've played them, just don't have the level of polish by the developers and gameplay of the good NES games. Bad games are just bad games. Almost all of the 7800 games that weren't simply updates to classic arcade titles are not good games.

[sheath]

My only gripe with the above is the implicit inclusion of NES games past 1989 compared to SMS games. You don't list the sequels and later gen titles, but the "on and on" comment implies that you would. It is "retroconing" the NES library to look at its entire library and compare it to any one "8-bit" console.

Now, as to whether one "classic" NES title was topped by a Master System game I have no concern. Metroid and Zillion are both great games, as are Zelda and Golvellius, SM3 and the Alex Kidd games, Castlevania and Kenseiden.

No NES game has a Master System "clone" or straight port. That is actually something I really enjoy about this generation. No NES game has an obvious replacement for the SMS's strongest titles either.

Even more important to me is the experimental stuff. Punch out, the Sega Scope games, the wide variety of Role Playing game types. Both systems excelled at experimentation and selling X many units just wasn't the main focus.

[kupomogli]

Yes there are games that aren't comparable to the SMS on the NES, but the other way around also applies. Also mentioning the amount of sequels to the good, well known series of the NES adds to the number of great games the NES has, and not being able to mention those seems kind of unfair as they are on the system.

Phantasy Star is a good game, but most of the SMS RPGs either suck or have ports that are also on the NES. The NES has a large amount of exclusive RPGs, a few are better than Phantasy Star, while most others are as good or almost as good. Something that's not too well known for example and better than any RPG on the SMS except Phantasy Star would be Destiny of an Emperor.

Games like Alex Kidd and Master of Darkness are good games that are comparable to series like Mario, Castlevania, and Mega Man, however, they're not as good as any of them if you want to get right down to it. It doesn't matter if the Mega Man formula became overused, it doesn't change the fact that all six games are still great games.

Does the SMS have anything like Romance of the Three Kingdoms(or Gemfire,) Tetris, Dr Mario, and Archon? Completely different game styles yet still good games. Someone mentioned in the thread that the NES has more games, and yes, more games doesn't mean it's a better system, but it helps when a lot of these games are actually good.

So the SMS is good, it's just not as good as the sheer amount of awesomeness that is the NES.

[Rickstilwell1]

Myself I didn't really like any of the Alex Kidd games much at all including the Genesis one, except for the 2nd one - Alex Kidd: The Lost Stars. That one was more of a traditional platformer than the rest.

[tom]

Trouble with US people is that they never got to play the excellent range of European-only releases on SMS, there are 100s if not many more, those releases beat any NES games by miles, pure quality (Of course one guy obviously will hark on about the BTTF games).
On the other hand, many people in Europe never played all the games on NES, because Europe didn't even get half the NES releases, but I heard that was not a great loss.
For once. with the SMS Europeans got the better deal regarding game releases, just like the Amiga computer.

[Rickstilwell1]

Trouble with US people is that they never got to play the excellent range of European-only releases on SMS, there are 100s if not many more, those releases beat any NES games by miles, pure quality (Of course one guy obviously will hark on about the BTTF games).
On the other hand, many people in Europe never played all the games on NES, because Europe didn't even get half the NES releases, but I heard that was not a great loss.
For once. with the SMS Europeans got the better deal regarding game releases, just like the Amiga computer.

Yeah but these days there's no excuse not to try them all. We have emulators and full romsets for both systems to do an easy comparison.

[sheath]

I would not advise anybody allow emulation to be their "authoritative" experience of a game or game console. There is no substitute for the real thing. Emulation introduces graphical artifacts and timing changes to these games. I will only play a game in emulation to see what it is like.

On the topic of the SMS controller, I actually like it. I wish it had a pause button, and that is my only gripe. Games that were designed for the SMS can benefit in gameplay from the SMS gamepad or the Control Stick even over a Genesis pad. I have experienced significantly enhanced controls in Kenseiden, The Ninja, Alien Syndrome and others using the SMS game pad.

I think, much like other Sega game pads, especially the Dreamcast pads, the SMS game pad's digital pad's sensitivity with the angles throws some people. Some games were actually designed to use this, others not so much.

[Hep038]

Well, it's Greg2600, huge 'mr-Nintendo-can-do-no-wrong guy', watcha gonna say?


I think you are confusing him with Rob2600.