Thoughts on Third Party Grading as it relates to the field of video game collecting:

[neogamer]

Can we all please agree to just ignore this guy? If his questions are legitimate in most of these threads (which I seriously doubt), we shouldn't be assisting him in these business ventures since almost all of us are here because we love games and collect games. Trying to introduce more methods for entrepreneurs to get rich off a relatively small hobby, none of which will benefit any of us (i.e. won't make rare games more readily available, cheaper, available in better condition, increase the level of discourse about them, etc...) is not something we should be supporting. I'm also guessing that this guy just likes to argue and really could care less about how anyone responds to his trolling. So, can we please just all agree that this will be the last time we let him provoke responses? Thank you.

For some reason, against my better instincts, I feel a need to respond to this post. Forgive me, but I must.

Do you seriously think I would come on to these boards or any other and spend precious time talking to fellow gamers, collectors, and the like just to argue? I ask questions and post new threads so I can both learn from other people and people can learn from me.

Why it is true that I have an "arrogant" nature about me, and I do have a love of capitalism, I also enjoy games. If you would take the time to actually read and digest some of my other posts you would learn this! I actually wish I had more time to play them. If I didn't spend so much time on this thread I could of been playing my PS3 right now!

I thought if anything, that by posting this particular issue on these boards some of you would feel glad that I asked your opinions. I consider this a very serious issue. Perhaps you do not, but let me tell you that this has changed other collecting fields forever.

I assure you, I am not here to get "rich" off of games as you state and if you feel a need to ignore me, please do for whatever reason you may have.

[neogamer]

Just to throw out my two cents into the ring Neogamer I think that this is something worth funding. Personally I am tired of buying so called, “Mint” games only to find out they are anything less than mint. I have longed hoped for some type of unified grading system like this. I don’t collect sealed games mainly due to resealing issues, though I actually might consider taking up the hobby if something life this did get off the ground. Though as you mentioned this service would be available for complete, unsealed games as well, which is music to my ears. Since this is what I collect.

I think that some people do make a valid point that most likely some things will get past the graders, such as a resealed games. Though I think that these will be minor and insignificant cases that people will overlook in highlight of the benefit grading brings to the hobby. I am pretty sure that even the comic grading association has made a few mistakes every once and a while and are yet are still going strong.

One aspect of the criticism I see on these pages that I find hard to understand is the fact that some rare games typically sell for $500+ complete, with sealed versions going for far more. I know personally I would be willing to pay $20-$50 onto of that price to ensure the condition and authenticity of such items. Some people would disagree, but for me it just makes common sense.

In the end I think that you shouldn’t really take into consideration the opinions of the people of this forum. I think you should go with your instinct on this one, unless of course investing in such an opportunity could lead to financial ruin. Though these are just me two cents,

I thank you! I am great financially so backing it shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps I did ask the wrong group of people? Who knows...

I agree and you seem to get what I am saying all along! Buying a game on eBay is a gamble and it shouldn't be...

[PingvinBlueJeans]

This is how you opened your thread:

...

And you need a serious change of attitude.

I think a lobotomy and castration would be more appropriate. This guy has no love for gaming whatsoever. I'm sick of hearing about his MBA and large money reserves in every thread. I can't wait for this turkey to be banned.

As far as grading goes...it's unnecessary on almost every level for the reasons already stated ad infinitum by earlier posters.

Yes, some people do have different standards of grading and what exactly "mint" is, but if this becomes a problem for certain collectors (specifically those buying rare and expensive games), anyone who is in this hobby for any length of time learns to buy from trusted collectors and/or dealers who deal specifically with the items they collect (Atari, NES, whatever) and who know how to grade their items properly. A grading service is completely unneeded and unwelcome to most gamers or game collectors, and so far the poll has confirmed that fact.

[JustRob]

For some reason, against my better instincts, I feel a need to respond to this post. Forgive me, but I must.

Do you seriously think I would come on to these boards or any other and spend precious time talking to fellow gamers, collectors, and the like just to argue? I ask questions and post new threads so I can both learn from other people and people can learn from me.

Why it is true that I have an "arrogant" nature about me, and I do have a love of capitalism, I also enjoy games. If you would take the time to actually read and digest some of my other posts you would learn this! I actually wish I had more time to play them. If I didn't spend so much time on this thread I could of been playing my PS3 right now!

I thought if anything, that by posting this particular issue on these boards some of you would feel glad that I asked your opinions. I consider this a very serious issue. Perhaps you do not, but let me tell you that this has changed other collecting fields forever.

I assure you, I am not here to get "rich" off of games as you state and if you feel a need to ignore me, please do for whatever reason you may have.

If your needs are not to capitalize off of the hobby, then why advocate such a far-impacting change? The group that would appreciate third party grading is so small as to be almost non-exsistant. "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few; or the one." That idiom protects the innocent and ignorant. It also protects the idealist from causing the kind of irrevocable damage that more often than not comes from change not in the greater interest.

You say you are a gamer and a collector. I believe you because otherwise it'd be insane for you to spend as much time here as you do, let alone having taken the time to discover this community and become such a vocal member of it.

I ask you to take a moment and think of the issue in the following way. Yes, it would be awesome for there to be a standard system for grading the object of all of our lustful collecting desires, but at what cost? Is it worth taking the hobby from the shadowed niche that it currently enjoys? The invention of ebay did great things for mankind in the overall picture, but it impacted our little corner of life in awkward ways. Too many who could never appreciate the hobby have been allowed inside the borders. Too many have been allowed to prety on us simply to satisfy their greed.

Opening the hobby up to the same kind of mainstream attention that this proposed system has given to other hobbies can do nothing but hurt the majority in the long run. It did so for comics, it will for video gaming.

A standard grading system is something that we all, in some ways, would love to have exist. Being able to call something "mint" and have it mean the same thing for everyone is something this hobby does sorely need. However, not in the way you are proposing. Too few will want their games entombed in that way. It takes away the very reason for them to exist.

Find a way to compromise without it becoming all about a business. Our hobby is too small and too personal for it to be allowed to come to that fate. You are a part of this community. Think about your peers, not about your need to practice your trade.

[Vectorman0]

I may back a company that grades video games! A company that has the power to bring A SET GRADING STANDARD TO THE MASSES. It would make buying an item sight unseen practical!

You don't seem to care, or may actually be ignoring the masses. This forum is your audience, and you seem to be completely ignoring it. You really don't care what we think as a whole. You are only listening to the few that agree with you.

Unfortunately, you seem to think those few are enough to make money off of. Be honest, that is the only thing you are after here. What's sad is it probably isn't even the money you are after, as you clearly already have plenty. Impressing your father maybe, living up to what he wants? I'm sure he would care less if you angered the majority of gamers, as long as you made some money from it.


I used to be an eBay powerseller and actually sold games! I loved it, but unfortunately it wasn't good enough for my father! Okay?

That might have been a low blow, but you deserve it considering the attitude you have been giving many members on the forums. Take this advice: tone it down if you actually care about the masses, as you already have made a poor image for youself.

Also, please respond to this if you actually read it, as I sort of doubt you will.

[omega_squid]

:bullshit:

I don't know if this has been brought up (I am sure it has), but has it ever occurred to you, neogamer, that some people just enjoy collecting video games? Sure I'd like to have a best-as-possible condition game/accessory/console/etc., but it doesn't matter to me. I spend my money on the things I want and I will enjoy! Heck, I even buy broken video game items and have to repair them to enjoy them!

Collecting is not all about money; It's amassing the things that fuel your passion!

[Kid Ice]

By any chance are these the two guys talking about starting this?

http://www.poster.net/jim-henson-prod/jim-henson-prod-waldorf-statler-2401676.jpg

[neogamer]

"I think a lobotomy and castration would be more appropriate. This guy has no love for gaming whatsoever. I'm sick of hearing about his MBA and large money reserves in every thread. I can't wait for this turkey to be banned..."


What exactly would I get banned for?

You guys really learned to shoot the messenger well, didn't you...

Once again, I am not starting it. Yes, I would be (should I choose to) financially supporting it. There is a difference.

[Sosage]

You guys really learned to shoot the messenger well, didn't you...

Is this in reference to you? If so then we are all horrible shots. You're still wandering around.

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

Let me jump in again. I think that a grading scale would be nice so that when someone lists a game quality, everyone is on the same page. The "grading service" is something that would only be useful for very high dollar items. From what I have seen in my little over a year here is that most of the people here
are collectors in the sense that they collect games to play them.

To sum up my feelings:

Grading scale: That would be fine

Grading service: Of no interest to me.

General rules for buying:

Ask lots of questions
Ask for pictures if you want
Ask for a return policy if it doesn't live up to your expectations
Deal with people whom you trust
Also, be very fair in in your selling

JY

[bangtango]

If this third party grading system gets off the ground, someone ought to take a collection and send these jokers the following items for immediate consideration.

-100 copies of NES Mario/Duck Hunt.
-100 copies of Atari 2600 Combat
-100 copies of the NFL 95 instruction manual for Sega Genesis (manual only, no cart or box)
-100 copies of the Spec Ops: Ranger Elite back insert for Playstation 1 (back insert only, no manual or game)

After all, a legitimate third party grading company would cover everything, including junk, and not just $50-100 games. Can't go refusing any of our requests!

[Vectorman0]

What exactly would I get banned for?
You could get banned for going against the spirit of DP. I'm sure you can figure out what that means.


You guys really learned to shoot the messenger well, didn't you...
As seen from this topic, when the messenger is shooting at us we like to shoot back.


Once again, I am not starting it. Yes, I would be (should I choose to) be financially supporting it. There is a difference.
It not being able to start without you pretty much makes you the one who is starting it. You act as if all you would be doing is put money into it, but I bet your obsession with MINT games that are worth lots of MONEY would get you involved with its inner workings too.

[FantasiaWHT]

Do you seriously think I would come on to these boards or any other and spend precious time talking to fellow gamers, collectors, and the like just to argue?


Actually, considering that every single thread you've posted in you've either been a) arguing, b) insulting other people, or c) as it was so eloquently put, "waving your e-penis" about your MBA, job, etc., yeah, actually I do seriously think that.

Granted, I love getting into a good debate myself, and I will admit there've been times where I had to be told to shut up. The thing is, though, I listened.

BTW, if you try one more time to claim that being a financial backer rather than the one doing the idea somehow makes you sacrosanct... forget it.

[megamaniaman]

I will rationally tell you some problems to the business venture that you are thinking about getting into. Personally I was one of the 3 that voted yes on this. But I also realize the industry is extremely small. How small? Last year over 125,000 people went to Comic Con. Now how many went to CGE. About 1/100th of that. When PSA and CGC went into business it needs to be noted that these hobbies were huge at the time of their entering. I believe that possibly 10 to 20 years from now the gaming hobby will be a lot larger than it is now. If that happens your venture may work a little bit better. Personally I would like to see it happen. One reason is that even if your business happens most games still would not be graded. Most people do not know this but even with the most valuable comics. MOST are not graded. If a person wants to read the original comic, he or she can get what is called a readers copy. My guess is this, that most people who have mint condition games if opened do not play them that often. If you did on a regular basis they would probably cease to be mint. The main reason I would be in favor of this is because the system I collect Atari 2600 has had some reproduction carts being passed off as the genuine article with the buyer later finding that they do not have the genuine thing. I just read an interesting article about one of the guys that help start CGC. He said that at first he was extremly hated for what he was doing, but eventually it became the standard and widely excepted by the industry. Also, here are some other negative points about grading that you may not realize. O'Sheas has a huge stock of mint condition Atari 2600 games that they sell for $5 a piece. Virtually every game in their stock would be a 90 or 95 out of a hundred on the AFA grading scale. Noob buyer would initially look at that and pay a retarded some of money for the mint game even though in reality there are many more on their way to be graded. I thought of a way that more people would be OK with your business venture. Instead of making this a grading service, have you thought about making this an Authentication service instead. What the Authentication service would do would mail back the cart or box with a sticker on it or a letter that stated that the game that was submitted was the genuine article and worked on a game system when tested. The letter could also state a flaw or two the cart had as to separate the game from others. Just my two cents and my opinion. Have a nice day:)

[PingvinBlueJeans]

The main reason I would be in favor of this is because the system I collect Atari 2600 has had some reproduction carts being passed off as the genuine article with the buyer later finding that they do not have the genuine thing.
What exactly are you referring to? As a serious 2600 collector myself, I've RARELY seen fakes (or repros that were not marked as such), and I'm not aware of any recent instances of a knowledgeable 2600 collector purchasing a repro they thought to be a genuine original. Please explain.


O'Sheas has a huge stock of mint condition Atari 2600 games that they sell for $5 a piece. Virtually every game in their stock would be a 90 or 95 out of a hundred on the AFA grading scale. Noob buyer would initially look at that and pay a retarded some of money for the mint game even though in reality there are many more on their way to be graded.
Well, there's a sucker born every minute, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyine willing to pay stupid money for O'Shea titles...they're all common as dirt, no matter how mint they are.


I thought of a way that more people would be OK with your business venture. Instead of making this a grading service, have you thought about making this an Authentication service instead. What the Authentication service would do would mail back the cart or box with a sticker on it or a letter that stated that the game that was submitted was the genuine article and worked on a game system when tested. The letter could also state a flaw or two the cart had as to separate the game from others. Just my two cents and my opinion. Have a nice day:)
An authentication service? That would be even less likely to succeed. Video games aren't baseball cards...there aren't that many fakes floating around.

[megamaniaman]

What exactly are you referring to? As a serious 2600 collector myself, I've RARELY seen fakes (or repros that were not marked as such), and I'm not aware of any recent instances of a knowledgeable 2600 collector purchasing a repro they thought to be a genuine original. Please explain.


Well, there's a sucker born every minute, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyine willing to pay stupid money for O'Shea titles...they're all common as dirt, no matter how mint they are.


An authentication service? That would be even less likely to succeed. Video games aren't baseball cards...there aren't that many fakes floating around.

Dino just purchased an Atlantis II repo that was stated as real. I believe the fakes are like cockroaches for every one you spot their are 20 lurking around.
I do know that Repo's that have been easy to spot have been advertised many times as real. A good example is the Halloween/TCM Double ender that has been advertised as real a couple of times on Ebay
As far as someone paying stupid money for O'Sheas titles. Remember that the graded Star Wars Return of the Jedi sealed went for $150 with a buy it now. It is not hard to get a minty condition of this game sealed for $20. I am pretty sure those not familiar with O'Sheas and the 20 or so games they have would probably do the same thing.

True, he may not be successful with that venture either, but with the Authentication service he probably would have more of a blessing of the community as long as he did not seal the games.

[Gentlegamer]

Video games are for playing. Anything that interferes with this is wrongbad.

[Kid Ice]

As far as someone paying stupid money for O'Sheas titles. Remember that the graded Star Wars Return of the Jedi sealed went for $150 with a buy it now. It is not hard to get a minty condition of this game sealed for $20. I am pretty sure those not familiar with O'Sheas and the 20 or so games they have would probably do the same thing.

You mean pay $150 for a sealed Ms. Pac Man? Someone that ill-informed deserves to lose their money.

[Ed Oscuro]

Previously I had thought a grading scale might be a nice thing to have. I admit I haven't read many of the posts in this thread, but I decided to think about it a little, and I'm going to have to say this isn't necessary or even going to have much impact, even if it was organized correctly and the people behind it had the right mindset.


I just want to own some decent cards of my heroes of the game, the grading of cards pretty much destroyed my love of that hobby.
For me, it was the massive overproduction of cards and the creation of artificial rarity (it felt like a mid-90s Topps deck had half a dozen different "limited edition" series to collect for). I dunno, I didn't get very far into collecting the older cards, which was where my interest lay at the time (still would, I bet, although it'd be great to own the first Upper Deck set).

There's going to be a lot of cheating in the game market in times to come no matter if there's a grading system or not. People are going to produce fakes, misrepresent items, try to sell off pirates as the legit deal, and so on. I don't think a grading system would really impact this one way or another, especially since we don't really know how games were produced (pirates again, various disc games not working on the new iteration of the system, and the endless NES shrinkwrap topics), and when you have different factories/duplication plants for games one person's mint copy will not be exactly like another person's. The result is that a grading company which claims to have a handle on all these (unknowable) variables might lead people into a sense of false confidence. Games aren't like coins or bills where (aside from the known production process) there are certain laws against counterfeiting - if you counterfeit (or reproduce) NES games, you aren't going to Federal court. Nintendo might take you on if they care, or not.

Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I'm relieved to see an item is used, because that alleviates some of the worries about whether it's another bootleg...

Finally - grading scales are silly. Just ask the seller to put the disc down on the bed of their scanner and take a picture, or whatever. A picture's worth more than any grading scale - and remember that the grading scales developed at a time when the best images you could get of a coin were 1x1 inch square b&w photos, even in pricing guides attempting to explain the lower end of the grading scale where there's more obvious variation between grades. Occasionally the experts disagree about the differences in the higher grade coins (counting scratches, arguing about worn dies, and the like). Also, some of the people behind the grading companies are scumbags. This shouldn't surprise anybody. Do we really need that crowd in our hobby?

[neogamer]

Actually, considering that every single thread you've posted in you've either been a) arguing, b) insulting other people, or c) as it was so eloquently put, "waving your e-penis" about your MBA, job, etc., yeah, actually I do seriously think that.

Granted, I love getting into a good debate myself, and I will admit there've been times where I had to be told to shut up. The thing is, though, I listened.

BTW, if you try one more time to claim that being a financial backer rather than the one doing the idea somehow makes you sacrosanct... forget it.

Please state a time that I actually called someone a name?

If anything, a lot of the other users do that, not me!

Number 2:

I doubt I would get banned for going against the "spirit of DP" (who happens to run a store and print a price guide....

The spirit of DP...that was the dumbest comment I ever heard...

Anyway, you guys seem to be missing the point, once again! Third party grading is coming to games with or without me. I seem to be in a position where I can help bring it here faster, or it can come later, but make no mistake, it will arrive...

I at the very least, sought your opinions and you turned it around! I never even brought up my education or the money I make (in this post) until it was "put on trial" by a fellow member of the community. And I have NEVER stated what I earn in this post or before. I did give an estimate in this post, that is true, but not anywhere near an exact figure! But of course, I am the bad guy...

anything else? This topic is getting old...

[megamaniaman]

Neogamer the only way you are actually going to find out if this works or not is by doing it. All the arguing in the world is not going to prove a thing.

[neogamer]

Neogamer the only way you are actually going to find out if this works or not is by doing it. All the arguing in the world is not going to prove a thing.

I think that is the point I was trying to make in my above statement.

It is only a $25,000.00 investment and a tax write off for me, assuming is fails to get off the ground.

It calls for a 18-24 month developmental plan. At the earliest, this service would not launch until 2009!

I just wanted thoughts and ideas, instead I got the usual...

It is interesting to note that I spend between $500 to $1,000 a month (sometimes a lot more) on video games. Yet, some people on these forums doubt my love for them. If I didn't truly love games, why on earth would I spend money on them at all? Like my accountant will gladly point out, buying a shiny new Playstation 3 game for $59.99 is not an investment (I know that and so do you). (BTW: I just bought Lair, Heavenly Sword, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma all in the last month along with coutless other games and systems to play and collect).

Now as I stated in other posts, you can INVEST in video games if you know what you are doing (i.e. buying from bargain bins, my Dreamcast game buying many years ago and the like-I have done it and still do it on certain items). Any collecting field has those type of "buyers" and they are both good and bad for the hobby as a whole.The point is, if I didn't truly love games, do you honestly think I would buy that much of the new latest and greatest stuff that will eventually become bargin bin fodder or be re-released later at a lower price point? That is actually the opposite of investing and it doesn't make much sense.

I paid $59.99 for LAIR for crying out loud....LOL

[GrandAmChandler]

Number 2:

I doubt I would get banned for going against the "spirit of DP" (who happens to run a store and print a price guide....

The spirit of DP...that was the dumbest comment I ever heard...

anything else? This topic is getting old...

No, it's not stupid. In fact he is being quite serious. Anyone going against the "Spirit of DP" is causing disharmony throughout the boards, and therefore leading you to be banned. I think you need to take a step back, look at those percentages in the poll above and ask yourself "Is this really a good idea?"

Probably not.

-GAC-

[Kaine32]

guys keep fighting the good fight while you can

in 2015 neogamer grows so powerful he becomes the middleman all games are hard sealed and graded at retail

if you want to play the games you have to get an id chip encoded under your skin that grades you as well

this is mostly why i started time traveling to amuse myself

[cyberfluxor]

No, it's not stupid. In fact he is being quite serious. Anyone going against the "Spirit of DP" is causing disharmony throughout the boards, and therefore leading you to be banned. I think you need to take a step back, look at those percentages in the poll above and ask yourself "Is this really a good idea?"

Probably not.

-GAC-

Yeah, but it feels more like we're being pulled together than split apart. Obviously this type of created enterprise wouldn't go well with most of the gaming communities or they wouldn't even care. I even doubt that day will ever come because as I stated before, most older gamers are bargin hunters and only spend top dollar when that ultimate game they want comes to be, but that's like what, under 1% of games in existance? The average game cost for all games in our hobby more than likely comes out in the single digit range.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Tried to stay out of this one... but why would anyone want to pay more for common games like Symphony of the Night, Fighters, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Earthbound, etc., when these once fairly common games whose price are now fairly bloated? Any store that obtains copies of these games, would automatically try and get them graded, which would further inflate a price. Everyone here at these posts complains how high game stores are on popular classic game prices... these stores and ebay have affected for better or worse, how much we pay for these games. I couldn't imagine what professional grading would do to these prices. And this hobby is not anywhere near as old as the comic book or baseball card hobbies.


Please state a time that I actually called someone a name?


While technically you didn't call anyone a name... you used several demeaning adjectives to insult a fellow poster here. I think the poster accusing you of name calling was referring to other threads inclusively.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106501

For anyone who cares, let me quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhansirhan View Post:
"Incidentally, I could do with you not participating in any thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has found it a chore to try to sift through your endless, asinine posts in the Modern Gaming forum. It's gotten to where I dread coming to Modern Gaming, and it is all because of you."

Posted by Neogamer:
I'm sorry that feel that way.

Not that I care, but I am sorry...

It's ashame, I guess I too was once that uneducated, naive, and stupid enough not to value or appreciate a thinking man's opinion.

Sometimes...I miss those days.

And it has nothing to do with you!



This was from the "most important game console thus" thread. A thread not originally started by you, but one that once you became "thread police" for. If anyone wants to see neogamer try and derail a thread by pretending to keep it "on topic," check it out. It's an interesting approach by a "thinking man," and it worked quite well. Neogamer you really need to chill out, and I apologize but I've really tried to ignore you... maybe I have a problem?

[neogamer]

Yeah, but it feels more like we're being pulled together than split apart. Obviously this type of created enterprise wouldn't go well with most of the gaming communities or they wouldn't even care. I even doubt that day will ever come because as I stated before, most older gamers are bargin hunters and only spend top dollar when that ultimate game they want comes to be, but that's like what, under 1% of games in existance? The average game cost for all games in our hobby more than likely comes out in the single digit range.

I'm not going to even respond to the stupidity of the "spirit of DP" statement. That is just plain stupid and if you think you can get me banned on anything I said thus far, please go for it!

Now, I will reply to this particular post because you bring up a good point, but you forget one thing:

Most comic collectors are the same way. They search through bargain bins buying $0.25 comics not caring about high priced CGC graded comics, but you know what? CGC is not geared towards that market. It is geared towards the collector! The person that realizes he can easily buy a reader copy, but if he wants a high grade copy to preserve, archive, or invest in, he can have that as well. This is is the point that some of you seem to be missing. Two different markets have emerged from CGC, not one!

There is a collector market (i.e. "I have a CGC 9.6 copy of Spider-Man #1") or "I want to be sure that near MINT comic I am paying $200 for is not restored and is in the condition the seller states."

Next you have the "reader market." Hey, I just bought a beat up copy of Tomb of Dracula #1 for $20 at a comic convention! I want it just to read.

Do you see the difference? Both markets do overlap! You can have a copy of Tomb of Dracula #1 that you just want to read and you can own an "investment copy."

CGC also brought A SET STANDARD OF GRADING TO THE MASSES! THIS IS WHAT IS IMPIORTANT! Now if you buy something sight unseen, you know the grade of the item. If someone describes something as near mint or mint and you are disappointed when you receive it, you have to wonder why it wasn't professionally graded in the first place. It takes the guess work out of the equation.

Case in point: If I buy Super Air Zonk (Turbo Super CD game-I assume you all know that) for $200.00 COMPLETE, how do I know I am going to get it exactly as described? MINT to me, means hardly used with no visible scratches wear, etc. and of course, working. MINT to someone else may mean: "Oh, that manual bend was there when I bought it, so its still mint." This I have a problem with, and this is what third party grading will seek to eliminate!

If you want a copy of Super Air Zonk to play, buy an ungraded one! I assure you, the seller will still describe its condition.

[theshizzle3000]

I could see the potential for this, but not anywhere in the near future. I mean it would help with mint games as compared to factory sealed. I how ever don't see why a difference is necessary. The only situation where this could be seen is a mint game compared to a totally damaged game. A few scratches hardly makes a difference.

[neogamer]

Tried to stay out of this one... but why would anyone want to pay more for common games like Symphony of the Night, Fighters, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Earthbound, etc., when these once fairly common games whose price are now fairly bloated? Any store that obtains copies of these games, would automatically try and get them graded, which would further inflate a price. Everyone here at these posts complains how high game stores are on popular classic game prices... these stores and ebay have affected for better or worse, how much we pay for these games. I couldn't imagine what professional grading would do to these prices. And this hobby is not anywhere near as old as the comic book or baseball card hobbies.




While technically you didn't call anyone a name... you used several demeaning adjectives to insult a fellow poster here. I think the poster accusing you of name calling was referring to other threads inclusively.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106501

For anyone who cares, let me quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhansirhan View Post:
"Incidentally, I could do with you not participating in any thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has found it a chore to try to sift through your endless, asinine posts in the Modern Gaming forum. It's gotten to where I dread coming to Modern Gaming, and it is all because of you."

Posted by Neogamer:
I'm sorry that feel that way.

Not that I care, but I am sorry...

It's ashame, I guess I too was once that uneducated, naive, and stupid enough not to value or appreciate a thinking man's opinion.

Sometimes...I miss those days.

And it has nothing to do with you!



This was from the "most important game console thus" thread. A thread not originally started by you, but one that once you became "thread police" for. If anyone wants to see neogamer try and derail a thread by pretending to keep it "on topic," check it out. It's an interesting approach by a "thinking man," and it worked quite well. Neogamer you really need to chill out, and I apologize but I've really tried to ignore you... maybe I have a problem?

Again, at what point have I ever called someone a direct name. I can quote many times you guys have directly insulted me. So please, show me direct quotes where I actually insulted someone. Okay?

Consider yourself ignored...

Is that insulting to you?

P.S. I will give you credit though, I thought you would of chimed in long before page 5 of this thread!

[neogamer]

A few scratches hardly makes a difference.


To you a few scratches make a difference, but to me and some other collectors it means a lot! Thanks for helping me prove my point!

[98PaceCar]

Again, at what point have I ever called someone a direct name. I can quote many times you guys have directly insulted me. So please, show me direct quotes where I actually insulted someone. Okay?


Ok, I can play this game, no direct name calling, but I can't think of many people that would say these were not intended as insults.....

Quote number 1, directed at me:

BTW: Keep the foul language to a minimum. That alone tells me you could not comfortably compare (which I doubt you could anyway) with me, okay?

Quote number 2, directed at me:

Again, it's that foul language thing I have a problem with. I guess your not that well equipped to handle an adult conversation, my bad...

You also 'claim' that I called you out on your salary, education, etc. Let's reread what I posted and see:


You know, I'm really curious here. Don't take this as a flame or attack, I'm honestly trying to figure you out...

You've stated in several threads about how you are an MBA student with a ton of disposable cash and a love of gaming. You've talked at length about wanting to open a game store and now come at us with the fact that you are a possible backer in a grading company. How much of what you are posting is based on a love of gaming versus a love of making money off of gaming? There's a lot of people here that make money with the hobby ranging from selling a few dupes on eBay to running full B&M stores, but all of them seem a lot more geniune than you are coming across. You've been a member here for about 2 months now and nearly every thread I've seen from you centers around how to make a profit from gamers. Now I don't read everything posted and I sure don't have any desire to read everything you (or anybody else) posts, but from my sampling this seems to be a very common theme. I also have a very hard time believing that someone with an MBA would be remotely interested in the daily operations of a small franchise game store.

Again, not a flame, just an observation (though a bit pointed I guess).

Ok, where did I ever ask what you make, what your schooling is, your family history, or anything even remotely similar? Now I will admit, I did question your motivations in no uncertain terms which is exactly what I wanted to do (and you did successfully confirm my suspicions). You are the one that brought your credentials into this discussion, I merely questioned your apparent interest in making money off of gamers.

Perhaps if you had come into DP with a more friendly attitude from the beginning, people would be more receptive to your ideas. You may be a gamer, you may be a collector, you may be here just to gather information to pad your own net worth at the expense of the DP membership and other collectors. Whatever you are, you sure aren't making any friends and in all honesty, we are the market you should be most concerned with. A lot of money changes hands here and for an established collector or dealer with a good reputation, the possibilities are endless.

[neogamer]

Ok, I can play this game, no direct name calling, but I can't think of many people that would say these were not intended as insults.....

Quote number 1, directed at me:


Quote number 2, directed at me:


You also 'claim' that I called you out on your salary, education, etc. Let's reread what I posted and see:



Ok, where did I ever ask what you make, what your schooling is, your family history, or anything even remotely similar? Now I will admit, I did question your motivations in no uncertain terms which is exactly what I wanted to do (and you did successfully confirm my suspicions). You are the one that brought your credentials into this discussion, I merely questioned your apparent interest in making money off of gamers.

Perhaps if you had come into DP with a more friendly attitude from the beginning, people would be more receptive to your ideas. You may be a gamer, you may be a collector, you may be here just to gather information to pad your own net worth at the expense of the DP membership and other collectors. Whatever you are, you sure aren't making any friends and in all honesty, we are the market you should be most concerned with. A lot of money changes hands here and for an established collector or dealer with a good reputation, the possibilities are endless.

Ebay is a much bigger marketplace then here, but obviously you still think this is about money...

you just don't get it... and never will...

[Rob2600]

See my post below.

[neogamer]

You don't seem to care, or may actually be ignoring the masses. This forum is your audience, and you seem to be completely ignoring it. You really don't care what we think as a whole. You are only listening to the few that agree with you.

Unfortunately, you seem to think those few are enough to make money off of. Be honest, that is the only thing you are after here. What's sad is it probably isn't even the money you are after, as you clearly already have plenty. Impressing your father maybe, living up to what he wants? I'm sure he would care less if you angered the majority of gamers, as long as you made some money from it.



That might have been a low blow, but you deserve it considering the attitude you have been giving many members on the forums. Take this advice: tone it down if you actually care about the masses, as you already have made a poor image for youself.

Also, please respond to this if you actually read it, as I sort of doubt you will.

I just actually had time to reread all the replies and will respond to you, since that is what you are asking, correct? While moving forward please leave my father out of future posts. I know I brought it up and I hate to edit posts, EXCEPT for grammar and the like, but please let go of that issue...he would not be too impressed with a video game grading company either or a franchise(area developer...maybe) for that matter...

Number one: I believe the masses on this board are biased. Yes, so am I in a way, but please let me explain. Most of the people (gamers or collectors) on these boards want a game just to play it, not to display it, or even in some cases collect it. That is why I chose to start an open discussion here. Believe it or not, others on other collectible forums have already taken notice of this hobby (i.e. collecting video games) and want to get in!

You guys appear to be looking at this the wrong way. My point is that I have people who want me to financially back them (and you are correct I would be involved) and get this project off the ground before an outside source (i.e. another grading company from another field) comes in and takes over.

All I was doing was looking for advice and a grading standard as well as asking your direct opinions. I do apologize if I came off a little too uncaring on this issue, but I must ask the following questions:

Do you want someone who likes and cares about games to help create the standards and be involved in what will inevitably come, or would you rather wait and hope that the company who enters this business does it right the first time?

Do you actually think they will take the time to post on your site and ask you guys what they think? Please don't kid yourself! It did not happen in the coin, comic, or toy grading industry. They asked the dealers! Not the collectors. Grading in those fields benefits the dealers! I know, I made money in CGC comics without caring less about the collectors. Why should I? I love video games, not comic books!

I am coming here, putting myself on the line, and asking you what you want. While you may not like my egotistical nature (my friend called me up last night laughing and giving me a hard time when he read this thread), I encourage you the gamer or collector to speak up. This is coming. I want to know how to go about doing it otherwise you are going to end up with the parent company of CGC or Collector's Universe (the parent company of PCGS) beating down your door! AFA is also getting close! If you sincerely think you can stop this type of influence think again. All it takes is one NEOGAMER to pay $2,000 for a PERFECT GRADED COPY OF "INSERT NAME OF GAME HERE" and the dealers will flock to submitting games! I hate to say it, but an entire empire is up for grabs...

no one ever thought CGC would conquer the comic book grading world, but now to even try to sell a comic book on eBay, it better be CGC graded. Not any other grading company has been able to topple CGC! They have had competitors.

Think about this as best as you guys can. I am open to suggestions that is why I am still reading and posting here. While on earth would I take this much time in this one thread if I didn't care? Come on...

$25,000.00 is a tax write off...that is it, but I implore you, if another company starts this where will you be?

They will not even ask your opinions, trust me.

[98PaceCar]

Ebay is a much bigger marketplace then here, but obviously you still think this is about money...

you just don't get it... and never will...

Then convince me it's not about money. The fact that you mention ebay as a bigger marketplace only strengthens my argument that it is indeed about money for you.

I'm here and listening. If you are afraid of what the public will think, PM it to me. I think if you take a step back and look at where myself and others are coming from, you will be able to see our point and in all brutal honesty, you have not made yourself look very good in the eyes of the community here with your claims, grandstanding about yourself, and insults you've slung towards members.

[neogamer]

Then convince me it's not about money. The fact that you mention ebay as a bigger marketplace only strengthens my argument that it is indeed about money for you.

I'm here and listening. If you are afraid of what the public will think, PM it to me. I think if you take a step back and look at where myself and others are coming from, you will be able to see our point and in all brutal honesty, you have not made yourself look very good in the eyes of the community here with your claims, grandstanding about yourself, and insults you've slung towards members.


Yes, you just happen to be a saint...

BTW: I owe you nothing...I could care less what you think! I just responded to someone else though and you are welcome to read what I wrote!

[98PaceCar]

Yes, you just happen to be a saint...

BTW: I owe you nothing...I could care less what you think! I just responded to someone else though and you are welcome to read what I wrote!

Just keep slinging those insults. Oh wait, you don't do that, right?

I may not be a saint, but at least I'm honest with myself and those around me and my contributions to the collector community have been productive and helpful, not disruptive.

[neogamer]

Just keep slinging those insults. Oh wait, you don't do that, right?

I may not be a saint, but at least I'm honest with myself and those around me and my contributions to the collector community have been productive and helpful, not disruptive.


I'm not going to even answer you anymore, okay?

This is not getting us anywhere. I answered all your questions. I even gave you background and financial information about myself, including my education, etc. I think we are done here.

Does anyone have antything else to add to this? Any more questions or comments related to the topic or anything I have posted thus far?

[Rob2600]

Please stop arguing for a moment. Neogamer has a somewhat valid point about a grading service. This is my simplified version of what I think he's trying to say:

- - -

Many of you are assuming that having a video game professionally graded will automatically raise its value. Why?

Let's pretend I have a sealed, mint condition copy of Frogger for the Atari 2600 and its going rate is $50. Now, I decide to have my copy of Frogger professionally graded, so I send it to the grading company. It sends Frogger back to me with a certificate stating that it is officially in 100% mint condition. That doesn't raise its value. Its going rate is still $50, right? But now I can list my copy of Frogger on Craig's List for $50, state with confidence that it is in 100% mint condition, and have hard-core collectors trust me. The risk for collectors is greatly reduced.

That's the main point of the grading service: when I sell Frogger on eBay or Craig's List or DP, I can guarantee to the collector buying it that it is truly in mint condition and that I'm not just guessing or making it up. This would reduce confusion and deceit and would give collectors more confidence when making purchases from strangers.

A grade is just a grade; it doesn't automatically raise the value of anything.

Also, not every single video game ever created would be graded, just rare/high-value/high-risk games. Yes, having a loose copy of Madden NFL '95 for the Sega Genesis professionally graded would be stupid, but having a guarantee that the sealed copy of Stadium Events I'm about to buy is in 100% mint condition might not be stupid if I were a hard-core collector of 100% mint games.

- - -

I think that's the point neogamer is trying to make.

I'm actually not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor, so I don't know how much need exists for a grading service. If deceit and confusion is rampant throughout the video game collector/investor hobby, then I suppose a grading service could be beneficial. However, if deceit and confusion is minimal, then there isn't enough demand for a grading service and it would be pointless.

Ultimately, I would never pay to have a video game professionally graded. I think it's idiotic, but again, I'm not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor.

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

I am coming here, putting myself on the line, and asking you what you want. While you may not like my egotistical nature (my friend called me up last night laughing and giving me a hard time when he read this thread), I encourage you the gamer or collector to speak up. This is coming. I want to know how to go about doing it otherwise you are going to end up with the parent company of CGC or Collector's Universe (the parent company of PCGS) beating down your door! AFA is also getting close! If you sincerely think you can stop this type of influence think again. All it takes is one NEOGAMER to pay $2,000 for a PERFECT GRADED COPY OF "INSERT NAME OF GAME HERE" and the dealers will flock to submitting games! I hate to say it, but an entire empire is up for grabs...

no one ever thought CGC would conquer the comic book grading world, but now to even try to sell a comic book on eBay, it better be CGC graded. Not any other grading company has been able to topple CGC! They have had competitors.

Think about this as best as you guys can. I am open to suggestions that is why I am still reading and posting here. While on earth would I take this much time in this one thread if I didn't care? Come on...

$25,000.00 is a tax write off...that is it, but I implore you, if another company starts this where will you be?

They will not even ask your opinions, trust me.

From reading this, I get this feeling:

'Somebody is going to come into the community and do this, so it might as well be me.'

You mention that if someone else comes in that they won't ask for our opinions and that you are open to suggestions, yet when you get them, you seem to ignore them and keep pushing the idea. How does this make your plan any better?

JY

[bangtango]

That is why I chose to start an open discussion here. Believe it or not, others on other collectible forums have already taken notice of this hobby (i.e. collecting video games) and want to get in!

God help us. Just what we need. More people who have nothing to do with gaming "just for fun" and couldn't tell you a lick of information about the Sega Genesis or 3DO if their life depended on it.


Do you want someone who likes and cares about games to help create the standards and be involved in what will inevitably come, or would you rather wait and hope that the company who enters this business does it right the first time?

I could be wrong but this contradicts the previous paragraph I quoted a little. People who probably don't play video games at all want to start rolling into this hobby from other forums specializing in "collecting" anything and everything that is worth a little money. Those people don't love games.

[neogamer]

Please stop arguing for a moment. Neogamer has a somewhat valid point about a grading service. This is my simplified version of what I think he's trying to say:

- - -

Many of you are assuming that having a video game professionally graded will automatically raise its value. Why?

Let's pretend I have a sealed, mint condition copy of Frogger for the Atari 2600 and its going rate is $50. Now, I decide to have my copy of Frogger professionally graded, so I send it to the grading company. It sends Frogger back to me with a certificate stating that it is officially in 100% mint condition. That doesn't raise its value. Its going rate is still $50, right? But now I can list my copy of Frogger on Craig's List for $50, state with confidence that it is in 100% mint condition, and have hard-core collectors trust me. The risk for collectors is greatly reduced.

That's the main point of the grading service: when I sell Frogger on eBay or Craig's List or DP, I can guarantee to the collector buying it that it is truly in mint condition and that I'm not just guessing or making it up. This would reduce confusion and deceit and would give collectors more confidence when making purchases from strangers.

A grade is just a grade; it doesn't automatically raise the value of anything.

Also, not every single video game ever created would be graded, just rare/high-value/high-risk games. Yes, having a loose copy of Madden NFL '95 for the Sega Genesis professionally graded would be stupid, but having a guarantee that the sealed copy of Stadium Events I'm about to buy is in 100% mint condition might not be stupid if I were a hard-core collector of 100% mint games.

- - -

I think that's the point neogamer is trying to make.

I'm actually not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor, so I don't know how much need exists for a grading service. If deceit and confusion is rampant throughout the video game collector/investor hobby, then I suppose a grading service could be beneficial. However, if deceit and confusion is minimal, then there isn't enough demand for a grading service and it would be pointless.

Ultimately, I would never pay to have a video game professionally graded. I think it's idiotic, but again, I'm not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor.

You have the basic idea of what I am saying. The only thing is the grading company would have to "seal your item" in a plastic "slab" to preserve its condition. Obviously, this is to protect the graded item from being harmed or "molested" (pardon the word) in any way.

Second, the grading company also would be using a set "standard of grading". What this does is ensure accuracy and enable collectors to understand what they have. This "grading scale" is usually numerical in nature and the higher the number the better. You can also call the grading company and find out why they graded a particular item the way they did based on their criteria!

Third, most collectors are not going to overpay for Madden 95! Keep in mind there is a grading fee involved. If you are a dealer are you really going to send in a Madden 95 video game to get graded knowing the current ungraded market value? Come on...although it could happen....this is where the grading company should set some guidelines.

Fourth, in any collectibles market, the buyers set the prices! I know some of you hate me when I say this (or just plain hate me-LOL), but if someone is willing to pay $1,000 for a Turbo Duo game in MINT (highest on the grading company's grading scale) then that is what it will sell for. If more copies turn up graded MINT, then this will lower the value as supply meets demand! Economics at its finest...

Fifth, we have yet to set the standards! Everyone is too busy attacking me and the idea, that no one wants to help establish grading standards. What does a MINT game look like? Should it be called MINT or should it be on a numerical scale (i.e. 8,9,10,etc.)?

More to come...

It is doubtful that any grading company that starts out grading home based video games will grade all types at first. I believe I touched on this in earlier posts. This is because unlike a coin or a comic book, or even an action figure, home based video games come in all shapes and sizes and have different needs. What costs the most when setting up a company like this is the development of the plastic "slab" that holds the collectible in question. Most people don't realize this.

Obviously COMPLETE Neo Geo AES games would be very hard to grade and slab as opposed to a Playstation or Dreamcast game. Anyway, that should answer some more questions.

You as a collector or gamer can choose to reject this idea. If you see a graded game selling on ebay, just refuse to bid on it. If dealers can't sell a graded product and collectors don't want it, the need is gone. With no need a business dies...

[98PaceCar]

Please stop arguing for a moment. Neogamer has a somewhat valid point about a grading service. This is my simplified version of what I think he's trying to say:

- - -

Many of you are assuming that having a video game professionally graded will automatically raise its value. Why?

Let's pretend I have a sealed, mint condition copy of Frogger for the Atari 2600 and its going rate is $50. Now, I decide to have my copy of Frogger professionally graded, so I send it to the grading company. It sends Frogger back to me with a certificate stating that it is officially in 100% mint condition. That doesn't raise its value. Its going rate is still $50, right? But now I can list my copy of Frogger on Craig's List for $50, state with confidence that it is in 100% mint condition, and have hard-core collectors trust me. The risk for collectors is greatly reduced.

That's the main point of the grading service: when I sell Frogger on eBay or Craig's List or DP, I can guarantee to the collector buying it that it is truly in mint condition and that I'm not just guessing or making it up. This would reduce confusion and deceit and would give collectors more confidence when making purchases from strangers.

A grade is just a grade; it doesn't automatically raise the value of anything.

Also, not every single video game ever created would be graded, just rare/high-value/high-risk games. Yes, having a loose copy of Madden NFL '95 for the Sega Genesis professionally graded would be stupid, but having a guarantee that the sealed copy of Stadium Events I'm about to buy is in 100% mint condition might not be stupid if I were a hard-core collector of 100% mint games.

- - -

I think that's the point neogamer is trying to make.

I'm actually not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor, so I don't know how much need exists for a grading service. If deceit and confusion is rampant throughout the video game collector/investor hobby, then I suppose a grading service could be beneficial. However, if deceit and confusion is minimal, then there isn't enough demand for a grading service and it would be pointless.

Ultimately, I would never pay to have a video game professionally graded. I think it's idiotic, but again, I'm not a hard-core video game collector, speculator, and/or investor.

You are somewhat correct in what you said. But what you have forgotten to factor in is that whatever grading company that comes in to 'help' us is NOT going to offer their services for free (even NeoGamer has used the phrase "return on investment"). So say I have a $50 game that I want graded. I send it in and pay a fee (for CGC I believe it's $35 a comic, but it's been a while since I've done anything with CGC). The game comes back graded and say it's value stayed the same due to condition. I, as a seller, have to recoup my costs so I add on at least the cost of the grading to the price if not a bit more. Suddenly, we're at $85 for a $50 game. There are likely people out there that will be happy to pay $85 for that $50 game. More then likely a large portion of them will not be collectors and will be speculators looking for investment opportunities. These won't be the people that know what a game is really worth, they will be operating based on what a third party says.

As more and more people see that having a game graded makes for a higher dollar sale (again, due to people speculating on the future values), you will see prices rise. Anybody that has a video game will immediately assume that it's worth exponentially more because of what the grading company says (see ebay as an example, how many sellers price according to what they see there as opposed to the DP guides or even local market pricing?). How often do you see a copy of Super Mario Bros for over $5 or $10? I see them all the time ("them old nintendo games are rare").

The sad thing is that in and of itself, a uniform grading system is not a bad idea. It could help in some cases, but the cost is just too great. Are you willing to pay 40% or 50% over the normal cost to have someone else say it's a nice copy? I'm willing and able to determine that for myself and will not pay anybody else to do it. It's not that difficult if you have any experience at all with games.

In short, a grading system would be beneficial, but a grading company is just a front for a way to capitalize on our hobby. Imagine if Gamestop started pricing games based on condition. <shudder>

[MachineGex]

An insult doesn't have to include a direct "name calling".
Me thinks so, altough mes unedumacated.

Neogamer-
I am trying to buy your spin on how you are mister educated/world businessman....but....Kutztown????
You can't pick a better(real) school than Kutztown? Isn't that a school people go to so they don't have to take real classes?
Personally, I would have peg'd you as a Harvard man!
Kutztown is a far drive from Philly, do you actually work in Philly?

Before you get all mad, I am just trying to lighten the topic up and I also want to get to know the real Neogamer, the man, the person, the businessman, the gamer.

[neogamer]

An insult doesn't have to include a direct "name calling".
Me thinks so, altough mes unedumacated.

Neogamer-
I am trying to buy your spin on how you are mister educated/world businessman....but....Kutztown????
You can't pick a better(real) school than Kutztown? Isn't that a school people go to so they don't have to take real classes?
Personally, I would have peg'd you as a Harvard man!
Kutztown is a far drive from Philly, do you actually work in Philly?

Before you get all mad, I am just trying to lighten the topic up and I also want to get to know the real Neogamer, the man, the person, the businessman, the gamer.


Drive there every day! I did edit out where I worked, but it was originally posted. No offense to anybody, but its probably not a good idea to list that info....especially given the fact that I am an Financial analyst and I do discuss video game industry related topics on these very forums!

But thank you for insulting the MBA program I am involved in...and you went to college where and have a degree in what...

But let me guess because I am responding to you like this when you attacked me first, I am the bad guy, right?

I have been told I can't lighten up, do you believe that? LOL

Anyway do you have an actual question on third party grading or are you just trying to test me?

[TurboGenesis]

Ever hear of Vanguard Group genius...

drive there every day!

This is an attack on the previous poster.
EDIT: It appears that there has been a "ninja" edit on the above post.

I am sorry we are not rich and genius like you are but it is appear that you are enjoy and attack anyone who is beneath you and who are not share your ideology.

You are only care about profit margin and not care about the video games :shameful:
It is shameful and sad. You are represent the worst of Americans who agenda is money and are not care about human compassion. Only how to profit. You are example why the world is frown on American. Many Americans are have compassion and care but around the world people are look down on American because they are only care about financial gain.

You are shit on me as well as others who are oppose you - Just like the American administration.

[neogamer]

This is an attack on the previous poster.

I am sorry we are not rich and genius like you are but it is appear that you are enjoy and attack anyone who is beneath you and who are not share your ideology.

You are only care about profit margin and not care about the video games :shameful:
It is shameful and sad. You are represent the worst of Americans who agenda is money and are not care about human compassion. Only how to profit. You are example why the world is frown on American. Many Americans are have compassion and care but around the world people are look down on American because they are only care about financial gain.

You are shit on me as well as others who are oppose you - Just like the American administration.


Wow, you are quick! I actually tried to EDIT OUT where I worked after I posted it! I didn't think I should list it, but you got it before I was able to completely get rid of it completely! Good job...

see, you guys know more about me, then I do of any of you! I will reply to your original post, I am just impressed in the speed of your reply! This is not an insult in any way!

[neogamer]

You are shit on me as well as others who are oppose you - Just like the American administration.

Are you insulting the president? That is a serious matter my friend. Don't go there!

Politics do not belong on this board! So I will keep my mouth shut, okay?

[Rob2600]

You are somewhat correct in what you said. But what you have forgotten to factor in is that whatever grading company that comes in to 'help' us is NOT going to offer their services for free... I, as a seller, have to recoup my costs so I add on at least the cost of the grading to the price if not a bit more. Suddenly, we're at $85 for a $50 game.

I didn't realize grading companies charge so much. You're right; in that case, it'd only make sense for very valuable games to be graded...maybe games worth $200 and up.


Imagine if Gamestop started pricing games based on condition. <shudder>

That might not be a bad idea. If GameStop charges $45 for a used, mint condition copy of a game, I wouldn't mind paying $35 for a mildly scratched, yet perfectly functioning copy or even less if it's missing the instruction manual.

I doubt GameStop would ever do this though. The people who work there can barely keep their stores organized and their price tags up-to-date as it is. :)

[neogamer]

I didn't realize grading companies charge so much. You're right; in that case, it'd only make sense for very valuable games to be graded...maybe games worth $200 and up.



That might not be a bad idea. If GameStop charges $45 for a used, mint condition copy of a game, I wouldn't mind paying $35 for a mildly scratched, yet perfectly functioning copy or even less if it's missing the instruction manual.

I doubt GameStop would ever do this though. The people who work there can barely keep their stores organized and their price tags up-to-date as it is. :)

No offense, but those prices are not accurate! You can get a "modern" comic book graded and encapsulated for $16-$20 at any comic convention or when they run specials.

Second, coins are a lot less to grade!

I also agree that I would actually shop at GAMESTOP if they DID grade their used "crap" they call games! And this is one of the few posts that you will ever hear me say the word "crap".

[bangtango]

Many of you are assuming that having a video game professionally graded will automatically raise its value. Why?

Let's pretend I have a sealed, mint condition copy of Frogger for the Atari 2600 and its going rate is $50. Now, I decide to have my copy of Frogger professionally graded, so I send it to the grading company. It sends Frogger back to me with a certificate stating that it is officially in 100% mint condition. That doesn't raise its value. Its going rate is still $50, right? But now I can list my copy of Frogger on Craig's List for $50, state with confidence that it is in 100% mint condition, and have hard-core collectors trust me. The risk for collectors is greatly reduced.

A grade is just a grade; it doesn't automatically raise the value of anything.

Tell all of this to Seller B in the following scenario.

Seller A sells a mint copy of Frogger on Ebay with the benefit of having that certificate, through using the grading system.

On the same day, Seller B sells a mint copy of Frogger on Ebay without the benefit of certification from a third party company.

Let's just say that both copies actually are mint, both listings have a well-written description and adequate photos of the game. Who do you think will get more bids and have a higher winning bid?

BIN's will go up if this becomes widespread, that's for sure. Guys on Craig's List, game store owners or pawn shop owners won't keep the value of a game at its "going rate" either. Having this certification will give them the security or confidence to charge $5-10 more than they normally would for the same game.

So not only will we get gibberish about going rates on Ebay but we will hear "Well we use a legitimate grading service and the other guys in town don't so we can charge $10-15 more for Final Fantasy VII or Symphony of the Night than they do."

[neogamer]

Tell all of this to Seller B in the following scenario.

Seller A sells a mint copy of Frogger on Ebay with the benefit of having that certificate, through using the grading system.

On the same day, Seller B sells a mint copy of Frogger on Ebay without the benefit of certification from a third party company.

Let's just say that both copies actually are mint, both listings have a well-written description and adequate photos of the game. Who do you think will get more bids and have a higher winning bid?

BIN's will go up if this becomes widespread, that's for sure.

I can tell you (if you are asking me) that the graded one will be encapsulated in a plastic "slab" with some info on it, so that right there will draw attention to it!

Generally speaking though, the one that is graded is the one that sells for the higher price. That is one reason why any type of third party grading is so controversial.

[y-bot]

I think this is going to happen whether people like it or not and if neogamer's associates are planning on starting in 2009 I think someone else will probably beat them to the punch. I think the poll results show this is viable. There have been tons of debates on this board about collecting sealed games and obviously a lot of people here are against collecting sealed games. I feel like this grading service is only going to be for people who want sealed games or mint games that would never be played anyway. So if you think that not playing your games is dumb it's not for you, but if you look at the prices that sealed NES & SNES games sell for you can see that there are obviously plenty of people who want sealed games. Every hobby matures (or gets ruined depending on how you look at it) and I think this is just part of that. For a few years now prices on most loose carts have been dropping and complete or sealed games have been rising. Right now there is only a small premium for games on most systems being sealed vs. mint and complete. Maybe 10% or so for most systems besides NES & SNES. I see that changing in the future. I think we're going to be saying "remember when you could buy a sealed 2600 Frogger for $20" in a few years and sealed 2600 games will be worth way more than complete ones. I think some people see an opportunity to make some money with this grading thing and they're going to go for it. Some may not be familiar with how much graded things sell for vs. ungraded in other collecting fields. Trading cards and comics that sell for more than $500 in graded 9.x or 10 condition can sell for $20 or less in "mint" ungraded condition. Look up Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. rookie cards on Ebay for an example. I have no idea what they sell for today but as an example before grading they sold for say $50 for a nice one. Now that some nice one would sell for $5-$10 ungraded but $500-$1000 if it was graded a 10. In coins there are registered sets and the grading companies keep track of how many coins have been graded what particular grade. Some people who collect nickels for example want to have the nicest graded example of each one. If you find a common modern coin and get it graded the highest ever you can sell it for thousands to those few people who need to have the best. I know someone who does this for a living and has sold several modern coins for more than $5000. I think these kinds of speculating is what will bring grading to video games. I hope I didn't sound like I am all for this, I have very mixed feelings about it. The positives I see are guaranteeing a game is authentic and that the seal is original. I think there is more of a problem than most people think with repros. Luckily right now most of the people who have the know-how to make high quality repros are honest and not trying to screw people. So for most of the screwing has been from people re-selling those games that the honest people made without saying they are repro. When the wrong people figure out how to do this there's gonna be trouble. The negatives are that top of the line items could get priced much higher than they are today. Just my two cents.

y-bot

[Rob2600]

As a plain old regular classic gamer who just wants to have fun, I don't see the point in having video games professionally graded. I don't spend hundreds of dollars on a single game, nor do I care if my games are in mint condition or "complete in box." I wouldn't benefit from a grading service.

I assume the same goes for most people on this message board.

However, neogamer's proposed grading service is not aimed at us plain old regular classic gamers who just want to have fun. It is aimed at serious, hard-core video game collectors/speculators/investors who are meticulous about buying rare games and complete, sealed, mint condition games. To us, those people might seem insane. Maybe we can't relate. That's fine, but people like that do exist in our hobby and they'd probably feel more at ease bidding on a $400 game knowing the condition that's stated in the auction (mint, near-mint, fair, etc.) is guaranteed.


Regarding sub-$100 games: I buy and play cheap games. Whenever I see eBay auctions for games like Contra or Super Mario Bros. 3 that go up to $35, I move on to the next auction. I know the real value of old games and won't pay more than $5 or $10 each.

[koster]

It's ideas like third-party video game grading that have me rethinking my stance towards digital distribution. Imagine having the option of taking the latest videogame download (paid for, of course :)) down to your local MediaMaker Shoppe (tm) and leaving with an on-the-spot, newly-manufactured game (sealed, of course :)).

I think there are too many issues with disc-based media using current packaging technology for third-party grading to take hold. For example, how would the HTPVGGE (Huge Third-Party Video Game Grading Entity) grade a factory-sealed Halo 3: Collector's Edition for the Xbox 360? And not handling that particular edition of the game would be a cop-out...

On the other hand, there are areas (eg. GBA carts and Criterion DVDs on Ebay) where third-party authentication is sorely needed.

[Rob2600]

Guys on Craig's List, game store owners or pawn shop owners won't keep the value of a game at its "going rate" either. Having this certification will give them the security or confidence to charge $5-10 more than they normally would for the same game.

So not only will we get gibberish about going rates on Ebay but we will hear "Well we use a legitimate grading service and the other guys in town don't so we can charge $10-15 more for Final Fantasy VII or Symphony of the Night than they do."

I see your point, but again, the purpose of neogamer's grading service is not to grade every single video game in existence. It'd only make sense to use the grading service for rare, valuable games that hard-core collectors/investors are interested in. I was just using Frogger as an example, but a game like Stadium Events would be a better example.

Average gamers don't care if Super Mario 64, Resident Evil, or other common games are sealed and in mint condition. Likewise, average gamers don't care about Stadium Events or other rare, $100+ games. Hard-core collectors do, though. The grading service would be aimed at them.

If any hard-core collectors/investors are reading this, what do you think? Again, I am not a hard-core collector/investor, so the grading service would be useless to me.

[JustRob]

The main argument re: the money issue is not so much that top-end items will go up, it's the trickle down effect. Once the outsiders see that the hobby is worth having a grading/slabbing system, the concensus among those who don't know is that the prices for ALL games must be going up. ALL games must be rare and valuable. It's happened on a smaller scale already with ebay etc, and it will happen on a MUCH larger scale when, not if, the slabbing begins.

We don't need slabbing, we need authentication. If someone wants a game slabbed, they can handle that on a case by case business, but not if it's going to project the wrong image to the outside world.

[Sothy]

/me proudly holds up a plastic encased Chrono Trigger Graded 99% and inside there is no game just a turd I laid in the box and Neogamer buys it and will never know.


This entire thread is ludicrous. These are not baseball cards or fucking stamps. Hey people collect DVDs and ceramic frogs too. See the huge ass market for ones encased in carbonite and graded? NO! because its assinine.

....I mean im waiting for the "GOTCHA!" post where it turns out this was a stupid prank or something.

[Rob2600]

The main argument re: the money issue is not so much that top-end items will go up, it's the trickle down effect. Once the outsiders see that the hobby is worth having a grading/slabbing system, the concensus among those who don't know is that the prices for ALL games must be going up. ALL games must be rare and valuable. It's happened on a smaller scale already with ebay etc, and it will happen on a MUCH larger scale when, not if, the slabbing begins.

That might happen, but only as long as people pay the higher prices. If people refuse to pay $15 to $35 for loose, common NES games, then sellers will learn their lesson and prices will remain normal. The buyers ultimately determine the prices, right?

[98PaceCar]

I see your point, but again, the purpose of neogamer's grading service is not to grade every single video game in existence. It'd only make sense to use the grading service for rare, valuable games that hard-core collectors/investors are interested in. I was just using Frogger as an example, but a game like Stadium Events would be a better example.

Average gamers don't care if Super Mario 64, Resident Evil, or other common games are sealed and in mint condition. Likewise, average gamers don't care about Stadium Events or other rare, $100+ games. Hard-core collectors do, though. The grading service would be aimed at them.

If any hard-core collectors/investors are reading this, what do you think? Again, I am not a hard-core collector/investor, so the grading service would be useless to me.


This won't affect just the top level collectable games though. Bob down at the flea market will know enough about graded games that his copy of Sonic with a nice label will suddenly spike in price because one sold on ebay for $XX more than he was asking. If that one sold for a high price, surely his is worth just a little bit less than that, right? Like someone else said, it's the trickle down effect that will jack prices across the board.

Additionally, Sothy's post brings up a good point as well. What's to keep someone that working on the grading line from taking a copy of Chrono Trigger and replacing it with Primal Rage before it's sealed up? The only way someone would ever know is if they broke open the slab and that would defeat the purpose of having it graded. Who's going to police the grading company.

In comics/books/coins, there's no real removable portion of the item being graded so the chance of this happening is practically nill. But in a game box, who knows. True, this is a very unlikely situation to arise, but it is plausible. Unless they are going to slab each game with every component displayed separately (which would jack up the price of grading just based on the need for a more complex slab) you'd never know if your game/manual/map/whatever is really still in there.

How about dealer A that is friends with somebody that grades games and slips them something extra to overlook some flaw?

There would need to be a great deal of trust and oversight of the graders for this to ever take hold. More than I think they will be able to earn.

[MachineGex]

Neogamer-
I am questioning why of all the great schools in your local area you would go with Kutztown? Especially since it is such a long drive for you. Did you pick the school for location, the program, or another reason? Seems an odd choice to me. I am sure you are aware of the reputation it has since you actually picked this school. Didn't Andre Reed go there?
Kutztown has it's reputation, don't get mad at the messenger.

I wasn't knocking you, just your choice of business schools. A Kutztown degree is great if you are applying for a receptionist at a local art house. However, if it is your only choice, I praise you for furthering your education.

Anyways, good luck with school and your new business.

[mailman187666]

I'd say there would probably be an extra market out there for graded games. Some people will buy loose carts or disks, others will buy complete and mint only games, othersonly collect sealed games. I personally buy anything if its a good price. So if "graded" games become a new market in video gaming, why not? its not like people myself are going to go straight for the graded games, I'd still be buying loose carts and disks. Or I would buy the complete ungraded ones I still see at flea markets. Either way, I don't think for people who only get loose and complete games would really be affected by the new prices on graded games. I play some of the games I collect so I wouldn't personally get my games graded. Who kinows though, if I saw a graded game that was worth something that I wanted to buy, it could make my collection lok a little bit better you know what I mean? its not a bad idea.

[JustRob]

That might happen, but only as long as people pay the higher prices. If people refuse to pay $15 to $35 for loose, common NES games, then sellers will learn their lesson and prices will remain normal. The buyers ultimately determine the prices, right?

Ideally that would be the case. The price spike happens, normal collectors/gamers refuse to pay those prices, sellers learn their lesson and all is well with the world. The twist of the knife comes from the sellers who refuse to budge on prices, or those one or two auctions that slip through the crack, won by someone who either doesn't know the true value of a game or just doesn't care and wants that game. The other sellers base their prices on that one freak event and it all starts over again. There are too many outside factors that will combine to screw this up for the rest of us. Newbies to the hobby who haven't found their comfort zone with pricing, outsiders who just want to play a specific game here and there, those vultures who buy up all the dirt cheap lots or singles just to try and corner a particular market.

This hobby began it's decline when it began to be seen by outsiders. The thirll of the hunt, of finding something cool in the wild is all we really have left, and unfortunately, too few of those finds are still possible because of too many people hearing about a single game going for some ridiculous price on ebay and believing that any load of crap commons they have can go for the same. So, they stick them on ebay, or craigslist, or anywhere else with the delusion that they'll make a mint off of them. "That NES is RARE and collectible. I'll get at LEAST $500 cause it's got the zapper and MB/DH cart. That makes it all original and RARE. You just don't find them like this ya know. NO ONE kept all this stuff."

99% of these go without bids, but that one less informed of us who actually does buy it for whatever reason becomes the catalyst for the misinformation that exists in pricing to the outsiders.

The best fix for all of this is for a central and standard repository for rarity and pricing. Which fortunately we already have in the form of guides like DP. Penetration into the hobby is good but not good enough in the case of the DP guides. We just need to either expand it's reach or come up with some more centralized source that can become the standard.

[neogamer]

Neogamer-
I am questioning why of all the great schools in your local area you would go with Kutztown? Especially since it is such a long drive for you. Did you pick the school for location, the program, or another reason? Seems an odd choice to me. I am sure you are aware of the reputation it has since you actually picked this school. Didn't Andre Reed go there?
Kutztown has it's reputation, don't get mad at the messenger.

I wasn't knocking you, just your choice of business schools. A Kutztown degree is great if you are applying for a receptionist at a local art house. However, if it is your only choice, I praise you for furthering your education.

Anyways, good luck with school and your new business.

"The bait remains unhooked."

consider yourself ignored as well...

[XYXZYZ]

I have bad news, an official grading service for video games has just been established. It's called the XQCC (XYXZYZ Quality Control Committee ) This committee has been studying the video game market for years, and has just established official values for the following games-

Genga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire (PC Engine)
Sylphia (PC Engine)
Hyperduel (Sega Saturn)
Ninja MASTERS' (Neo Geo)
Blazing Star (Neo Geo)
Sengoku 3 (Neo Geo)
Little Samson (NES)
Battle Mania II (Megadrive)

And they're each officially worth $10.00 USD.

If you have any of these games and would like to cash in before the value drops any further, please PM me and I'll take them off your hands.

[XYXZYZ]

Sothy's post brings up a good point as well. What's to keep someone that working on the grading line from taking a copy of Chrono Trigger and replacing it with Primal Rage before it's sealed up?


And they may not even put the turd in there...

[neogamer]

For those that want to have an intellectual conversation on this topic, I am all for it and will continue.Fr those who don't just don't post. Your just taking up your time and other people's valuable time and resources.

This topic is something that interests me. If it does not interest you, and you know who you are, you are in the wrong thread! Enough said!

Now for the rest of us, and I am glad to see some interesting thoughts on this matter, we can continue.

First to address the idea that something or someone would remove the item in question and seal it in a slab:

Can't that happen in any industry? What about AFA who grades toys? They don't seem to have that problem with a GI Joe toy or a Star Wars AT-AT! Same thing is true when you buy a sealed video game! How do you know that KID ICARUS you paid $700 for sealed on ebay is actually in that box?

[Rob2600]

This hobby began it's decline when it began to be seen by outsiders. The thirll of the hunt, of finding something cool in the wild is all we really have left, and unfortunately, too few of those finds are still possible because of too many people hearing about a single game going for some ridiculous price on ebay and believing that any load of crap commons they have can go for the same. So, they stick them on ebay, or craigslist, or anywhere else with the delusion that they'll make a mint off of them.

"That NES is RARE and collectible. I'll get at LEAST $500 cause it's got the zapper and MB/DH cart. That makes it all original and RARE. You just don't find them like this ya know. NO ONE kept all this stuff."

My friend Greg and I talked about eBay auctions like that in episode 42 (http://paunchstevenson.com/2006/08/21/episode-42/) of our podcast The Paunch Stevenson Show. We kept seeing common NES games being listed as "RARE" with Buy It Now prices of $35, which was both funny and annoying.

If you're interested, give it a listen.

[98PaceCar]

For those that want to have an intellectual conversation on this topic, I am all for it and will continue.Fr those who don't just don't post. Your just taking up your time and other people's valuable time and resources.

This topic is something that interests me. If it does not interest you, and you know who you are, you are in the wrong thread! Enough said!

Now for the rest of us, and I am glad to see some interesting thoughts on this matter, we can continue.

First to address the idea that something or someone would remove the item in question and seal it in a slab:

Can't that happen in any industry? What about AFA who grades toys? They don't seem to have that problem with a GI Joe toy or a Star Wars AT-AT! Same thing is true when you buy a sealed video game! How do you know that KID ICARUS you paid $700 for sealed on ebay is actually in that box?

The main problem here is that you asked for opinions and when you started to receive opinions that differ from yours, you perceived an attack and started slinging insults and throwing around your credentials. The fight ensued from there. Like I said before, had you come in with a decent attitude towards the subject and more importantly, the membership here, this wouldn't have happened.

To address the toy issue, it can happen there as well. Who knows if it does or not. Are people cracking open their newly graded toys to find out? I doubt it, so there is no telling what is in the boxes. Again, it's very unlikely to actually happen, but when there is money on the line anything is possible. It does tend to motivate some people quite a bit more than others and that motivation is not always to do the right thing.

So this proposed grading company will be able to validate the contents of sealed games? Technically, I'm sure that given enough desire someone could reproduce the seal on the NES or any other game well enough to pass scrutiny. How will they be able to validate what's in the box without destroying the value by opening it?

[neogamer]

I'm not going to even answer you anymore, okay?

This is not getting us anywhere. I answered all your questions. I even gave you background and financial information about myself, including my education, etc. I think we are done here.

Does anyone have anything else to add to this? Any more questions or comments related to the topic or anything I have posted thus far?

No offense, and you can consider this an insult (though your definition is well off if you do), but this above statement sums it up perfectly!

Note the part that reads "I'm not going to even answer you anymore,okay?"

There is a few people I will be ignoring as this discussion continues, if you are one of them, don't bother asking me a direct question. If I told you that I am ignoring you the same goes as well. Any other questions?

[Matt-El]

Er, I haven't read this thread at all really, but my retard detector is going off the scale, so I'll throw in a random comment:


The reason a grading style for comics and trading cards work is because those are paper goods which can get destroyed easily. Applying this to video games is a bit much, plus the skeptic in me says no company would truly get enough support behind it from the collecting community as a whole.


Now, continue as if I wasn't here...

[neogamer]

Er, I haven't read this thread at all really, but my retard detector is going off the scale, so I'll throw in a random comment:


The reason a grading style for comics and trading cards work is because those are paper goods which can get destroyed easily. Applying this to video games is a bit much, plus the skeptic in me says no company would truly get enough support behind it from the collecting community as a whole.


Now, continue as if I wasn't here...

What about toys, action figures, coins, and dolls?

[neogamer]

The main problem here is that you asked for opinions and when you started to receive opinions that differ from yours, you perceived an attack and started slinging insults and throwing around your credentials. The fight ensued from there. Like I said before, had you come in with a decent attitude towards the subject and more importantly, the membership here, this wouldn't have happened.

To address the toy issue, it can happen there as well. Who knows if it does or not. Are people cracking open their newly graded toys to find out? I doubt it, so there is no telling what is in the boxes. Again, it's very unlikely to actually happen, but when there is money on the line anything is possible. It does tend to motivate some people quite a bit more than others and that motivation is not always to do the right thing.

So this proposed grading company will be able to validate the contents of sealed games? Technically, I'm sure that given enough desire someone could reproduce the seal on the NES or any other game well enough to pass scrutiny. How will they be able to validate what's in the box without destroying the value by opening it?

Another thing to consideer is CGC! They have had success! How do you know if that $50,000 comic book isn't missing page 42? It is SEALED in a slab!

[98PaceCar]

Another thing to consideer is CGC! They have had success! How do you know if that $50,000 comic book isn't missing page 42? It is SEALED in a slab!

Very true. That's what makes it all the crazier that people will trust them, imo. Though it's a bit different than this in that the people running CGC were well known in the collector arena long before they started CGC. Having that type of reputation among their peers before trying to do something like this goes a long way towards success.

[blue lander]

I can understand people valuing games for things other than just playing them (as a collectible, a reminder of childhood, buying a Star Wars game because you're a Star Wars fan, etc), but I've never understood people valuing games for those other things MORE than they value playing the game itself. Which is why I can't fathom sealed game collectors. But whatever floats your boat.

What I want to know is, what makes everybody think game collecting will eventually end up like baseball cards and comic books? Didn't both sports cards and comic books become "serious" collectibles when the kids who collected them as a kid grew up, had mid-life criseses, and decided to throw their disposable income at capturing bits of their childhoods? Wasn't it kids who grew up in the 50's and 60's who turned sports cards and comic books into commodities to be sold and traded like stocks?

...So if that's true, then wouldn't the same transformation already have happened with video games? If kids who grew up playing Atari are now grown up and have the money to spend on driving game collecting into a serious business like kids who grew up with comics and baseball cards did, they would have already done it. Maybe if some Gen-X'er wants to relive his wasted youth, he'll just download his favorite game from XBox live or VC rather than spend $1,000 on buying a sealed mint perfect copy of it sealed in 5 inches of plastic.

And is it just me, or does this thread remind anybody of the petty bickering that overwhelmed R.G.V.C right before people stopped posting to it?