Thoughts on Third Party Grading as it relates to the field of video game collecting:

[neogamer]

Sorry to say this and a lot of you are going to hate me for saying this, but if you are solely a gamer, you will not like this thread. If you read it you will see why. I still want your opinion though! Just tell me in your post whether you are more of a gamer or collector. I cannot stress the importance of this thread! I now know of two individuals who have contacted me about financially backing them on moving this forward! Any advice is appreciated. One thing though, keep it civil and show mutual respect, as this can be a "hot topic" once you understand how it has changed other collecting fields. I will post more on that as we move along!

As some of you may know, in other fields of collecting (i.e. coins, toys, action figures, sports cards, comic books, etc.) the process of third party grading has taken over. Its effects on the market cannot be denied and that is why I started this thread. I am looking for input! Is it a good idea as it relates to our hobby? Is is a bad idea? These are all relevant questions. For the uninformed, third party grading is basically defined as a "third party" using their own set of standards grading a collectible and sealing it in a plastic "slab" that is also tamper evident. Obviously, if the outer "slab" has been opened or tampered with the grade is invalid.

What I am asking for is your thoughts as a whole on this topic. Right now as we speak, collectors are paying top dollar for factory sealed games. This is due to a few market factors: (I did not list them all, I know)

1. Lack of a grading standard. Example: I describe something as mint and sell it to you. You get it and put it under a magnifying glass thus finding various scratches. You want a refund because the item is "not as described." A grading standard set by a third party grading company will eliminate that.

2. Factory sealed games are selling at an average of four times the cost of an identical opened "MINT" item! Unless you want a FACTORY SEALED game, this is a little ridiculous (I'll even agree with that).

Due to no known grading standards or the lack of a third party grading company, collectors who want MINT games are forced to buy multiple mint copies of a game hoping they eventually find a true mint game, or buy a factory sealed game then open it! This is stupid!

Drawbacks to third party grading:

Guess what: Your collectibles will be sealed in a plastic slab! You can either open the slab, thus voiding the grade, display the slab, or resell it! Reselling a high graded item is going to cause an increase in prices! It has happened in every collectible field thus far, so I am telling you in advance. Dealers and resellers will make this happen. When collectors see that a FFVII is the highest available copy on eBay, they will pay big bucks for it.

Keep in mind a few things:

Most third party grading companies utilize a "census." This measures what they have graded, what grade was assigned, and how many are out there, whether it be in the marketplace or in a display case! These numbers are updated frequently and are displayed on the third party grading company's website.

MULTIPLE GRADING COMPANIES CAN AND WILL HARM THE MARKET! Want to buy a "graded" coin? Guess what? You have about five companies to choose from, but only two have collector confidence. This caused a lot of problems and still does to this day. Each company has different grading standards. How fun!

SO, THOSE THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THIRD PARTY GRADING IN OTHER FIELDS AND THOSE WHO DO NOT: HOW DO YOU, AS A VIDEO GAME COLLECTOR, FEEL ABOUT THIS? IF YOU ARE A GAMER, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? OBVIOUSLY, A GAMER WILL GET CAUGHT UP IN A WHIRLWIND OF HIGH PRICES IF HE HOPES TO HUNT DOWN AN IN DEMAND GAME!

I hope you will post on this subject. I know of certain individuals who are in fact, moving it forward!

[neuropolitique]

I don't see how this will succeed. This hobby is too small, both in term of people and money, to support a service like this. Also, the values in this hobby are largely based on rarity, not condition. So while a game may sell for more if it is in minty fresh shape, the bulk of it's price is based on its rarity.

Also other hobbies had rating systems in place long before anyone got into the business of professional grading. We, currently, lack such a system so any pay-for-grade system would be arbitrary, and foreign to most of its intended audience.

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.

[zektor]

I don't see how this will succeed. This hobby is too small, both in term of people and money, to support a service like this. Also, the values in this hobby are largely based on rarity, not condition. So while a game may sell for more if it is in minty fresh shape, the bulk of it's price is based on its rarity.

Also other hobbies had rating systems in place long before anyone got into the business of professional grading. We, currently, lack such a system so any pay-for-grade system would be arbitrary, and foreign to most of its intended audience.

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.

Very well said. I agree 100% here.

[scooterb23]

I absolutely hate grading companies, one of the worst things to happen to the hobby world. And it has infected two of the four main hobby worlds I dabble in.

Grading baseball cards has made it nearly impossible for me to afford older baseball cards I had been looking for. I used to be able to go to a shop, and find some nice cards from the 60s and 70s for decent prices, now all those cards are in these clunky, ugly slabs...and the prices went up 10-20 fold. I just want to own some decent cards of my heroes of the game, the grading of cards pretty much destroyed my love of that hobby.

Now, there are companies grading and slabbing comic books...how stupid is that?

"Wow Bob, nice copy of *insert comic book here* there, what happens in that issue?"

"Well, I don't know...if I wanted to read it, I'd have to open the slab, and ruin the grading."

"Ummm...Ok, how much did you pay for that issue?"

"$450"

"Wow, how much for a copy I could actually read?"

"Around $20"

"..."

Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!

I already don't get people who collect sealed games...games were meant to be played, not stared at. Of course, as happens with most hobbies, people start to realize that money can be made...with absolutely no regard to the original intent of the hobby.

So ideas like this come along...putting grades on games, and sealing them from the world so someone can say "Wow, look how great I am! I have a mint, sealed, 10.0 graded copy of Chrono Trigger! That's worth $2000!!!!!!!"

To me, a game like that would be completely worthless.

I got into video games because I liked sitting around playing games and talking about playing games.

Anymore it just seems like people are more concerned with how much a game is worth, how shiny are the graphics, and which company is "winning the console war." I dunno, but that's not fun, aned not at all the hobby I got into 8 years ago. I get the feeling that if graded games caught on, it'd completely destroy the hobby.

[GrandAmChandler]

Hey let's try to make this hobby more expensive!

Stupid.

EDIT: I also open sealed games, so graded games that are perma-sealed would be opened by me.

-GAC-

[crazyjackcsa]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most people that get things graded like this are the fringe of the collectors anyway. Sure it does drive prices up. But the people that collect to play will always collect to play. My other hobby is my classic car, It's a 1971 Buick Riviera. A lot of the car market has gone crazy with the Barrett Jackson Auction crap. People move into areas that the collectors aren't, and deal with each other, much like digitpress. The high dollar sealed games will go up. But can anybody see copies of Madden 95 on the genesis ever go for more than a dollar?

[VACRMH]

I think it's a horrible idea. As others said, it will just make it more expensive, and would defeat the entire purpose of owning a game.

I myself enjoy the hunt, finding a game i've always wanted to play in a small store or at a yard sale is what I enjoy. And the best part is getting home to try it out for the first time. Especially if you've been waiting forever, trying to track it down.

[Rob2600]

I think it's a horrible idea...and would defeat the entire purpose of owning a game.

I myself enjoy the hunt...And the best part is getting home to try it out for the first time. Especially if you've been waiting forever, trying to track it down.

I agree. There are also people who collect sealed games, which is just as pointless as paying a company to lock a game in a plastic case. Either way, the games aren't being played.

[kaedesdisciple]

I am also against the whole grading idea. It's a money-making scheme and it only benefits two groups of people: the grading "companies" and eBay.

Grading coins or other things that you would only look at anyway is one thing, but grading and slabbing a piece of software that was meant to be played with in order to be fully enjoyed (by most people anyway)? Count me out.

...10 years from now...

John (looking at Mike's shelf)- "Oh wow, is that a copy of Marvel vs Capcom 2? I loved that game back in the day!"

Mike - "Yea, isn't it beautiful? It's a sealed mint copy, graded 9.5 and worth over $(some ridiculous amount of money)!"

John - "That's great, how do we play it?"

Mike - "Play it?"

[ChronoTriggaFoo]

What drove people to submit their comics and baseball cards by the hoards was pure speculation. It was crazy. I remember. If it was slabbed most people thought they had gold whether or not it was high grade or not. Then census reports came out. Then the glut of this kind of product on eBay, etc. Most people have realized by now its going to take a quality collectible for this sort of investment to be profitable. And a good portion of quality video game collectibles are usually in the hands of astute collectors with a great sense of video game history who I doubt would support this. Sure, you may have a few big sealed games collectors/resellers submit large amounts of their stash, but I can't see this being profitable in the long run with sealed games being a very niche and extremely small segment of the video game community.

Additionally, I can only see this service being for sealed games. Not cartridge only/opened disc-based games. Yes, some people collect cartridges and want them mint, but really they just want something that looks nice for their collection and to have the opportunity to play them as well. And then there's a good amount of people who aren't collecting but just want to play the game.

By the way, I am a hybrid gamer/collector type split down the middle. This is where the majority of people into video games lie in our community. We want to collect AND have the opportunity to play them. I didn't mind owning the craptacular Cheetahmen sealed, but that's because I didn't care to play it and I appreciated its history. Most games I want to pop in and play even if for just a couple minutes. If anything, it may be a better idea selling solid clear cases that can be opened and closed for those sealed/complete/rare games. That may already exist (I haven't looked), but you'll definitely strike a better chord with our community at least. :)

[y-bot]

You know that AFA has already graded a Star Wars 2600 game, right? I'm not sure if they're taking video game submissions or if that was a one time thing bacause it was Star Wars related. I have lots of experience with third party graded coins and a little with comics and action figures. If you start a business doing this I would say 90% of collectors will hate and 10% will love you. That 10% may be enough to make it worth while. Make sure you hire some experts because I think a couple of mistakes on some resealed or tampered with games would ruin your reputation. There are more like 100 coin grading services now because of Ebay. Most are not companies that take submissions from customers, they are just selling there own coins. Some of the holders aren't even sealed. It's a joke among serious collectors & dealers but novices buy them every day. Ebay just made a new rule to try and end this. Now you can't list a numeric grade in the title unless it is graded by the top 5 companies. There are really only 2 or 3 that matter, the other 2 are almost as bad as the fly by night companies. My opinion on AFA is that it is a fad. Their grading is very inconsistent and if they had any competition they would fold. I don't think the astronomical prices people are paying for AFA graded sealed toys will hold out. Coins have proven themselves and cards & comics graded by the main companies seam to be pretty solid as well. Good luck!

y-bot

[Oobgarm]

Terrible idea. It would be damning to the hobby.

Neuro and Scooter are spot-on with their comments, I have nothing else to add.

[neogamer]

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.


I'm not doing anything as of yet! Please don't put words into my mouth! I said as stated, that I was aprroached by two interested parties for financial backing...nothing more. I then gave you background info (very basic I may add) on third party grading.

Keep in mind, you can crack the plastic slab open! Comic book collectors said the same thing(but you can't read the comic, it's encased in plastic), but now CGC (Comics Guaranty Corp.) has become a standard and they do exactly that, as do all grading companies!

One more thing: some of you guys seem to be missing the point! Have you ever bought a disc based game described as near mint or mint only to get it and realize it wasn't?

TRUSTED and ETHICAL third party grading would eliminate that! Again, that is one of the reasons why collectors pay on average four times as much for sealed games. When I pay $200 for a sealed Dreamcast game(or any other sealed game for that matter) I open it! This service would, I assume, be for both OPENED BUT COMPLETE games as well as FACTORY SEALED GAMES.

Once again, some of you guys need to reread my initial post. I am not directly involved in this project as of now! However, if I give financial backing, I definately will be! That is why I want your two cents! Please feel free to speak up! This affects everybody.

[raregamergirl]

I collect factory sealed games myself and I think this is just a dumb idea. As others have said, factory sealed collecting is such a niche that you can't expect this to take off. I, personally, could care less if some grading company can seal my already sealed game and tell me its rating out of a 10. I would pay zero premium and certainly no fee. The ONLY benefit it would give is knowing whether or not you are purchasing a reseal. Even that is basically useless these days as reseals are not rampant and you can generally get a good idea based on pictures and the seller etc.

Also, people that are ragging on factory sealed collecting- the thing you do not seem to realize is (well, for me at least), collecting factory sealed games is all about the condition. I have a copy that is truly in mint condition. I do not need a grading service to tell me that. Its contents are preserved and are new. There is zero chance you can find the inner contents in better shape (perhaps the same, never better). Even if the grading company graded complete mint games, its inner contents still can't be any better than a factory sealed copy. The box can sometimes be damaged on a factory sealed game, but the value then goes down significantly. You get two copies- a cart only copy if you want to play it and the factory sealed MINT one to collect. If you ever do want to open it, you can.

[scooterb23]

And once you crack the slab, the grading is worthless! So the money you spent on grading is wasted! Or if you buy a graded comic for reading, you spent 10-20 times more than a loose copy of the same book would cost! Again, what a waste! And why am I ending every line with an exclamation point!

[neuropolitique]

Keep in mind, you can crack the plastic slab open! Comic book collectors said the same thing(but you can't read the comic, it's encased in plastic), but now CGC (Comics Guaranty Corp.) has become a standard and they do exactly that, as do all grading companies!

taken from the CGC website


What if I want to take my comic out of your holder?

We anticipated that many collectors would do just that, even though the certified grade will then no longer be applicable without re-certification. That's why our holder is designed to allow optimal observation of the comic book inside. Also, we have designed our holder so that it can be opened carefully, allowing safe removal. Due to the fragile nature of comic books, once our holder is opened, we then recommend the immediate re-certification of the comic book. When Re-Certifying the comic book, this inner label should be returned to CGC for a $5 re-certification credit ($10 off WalkThru Service). After opening, the CGC holder cannot be resealed.

Collectors should remember that the process of certification is designed primarily as a tool for buying and selling that establishes standards in grading consistency for the hobby. Many collectors prefer to leave a comic in its holder for its protection, and to enhance its liquidity if they decide to sell. Leaving the book in its original CGC holder would prevent the need for re-certification and retain the protective strengths of the holder.


So, yes, you can open it. Opening it, however, kills the certification and therefore the value. Feel free to pay them even more money now to re-certify. It's a money making scheme that adds nothing to the hobby. It's just for people looking to make a quick buck.

[XYXZYZ]

I agree that this would suck tremendously if it took off, but just think of how much fun the resistance would be: anti- AFA etc. logos in everyone's sig, petitions and whatnot stating that half the gaming community will never buy from your store again if you sell a graded item, making fun of their supporters with photoshopped gay porn, it'd be another fun hobby to get into.

[neogamer]

taken from the CGC website




So, yes, you can open it. Opening it, however, kills the certification and therefore the value. Feel free to pay them even more money now to re-certify. It's a money making scheme that adds nothing to the hobby. It's just for people looking to make a quick buck.

This is absolutely correct and that is what I stated(or at least hinted at) in my initial post. You would have to re-grade or re-certify the item in question. This debate still "rages" on with comic collectors today.

The point I am arguing is that condition is something collectors take for granted and it is vital. This grading company would grade factrory sealed games as well as complete games that are not factory sealed.

Another point is this: I have bought brand new games and the contents have been damaged. The argument that because something is new it must be mint is a falsehood. Has anybody ever gotten a PS2 game with "shaken manual syndrome?" The manual gets damage from rattling around in the case. This happened with my Odin Sphere game and a few others, however, I buy two copies of every game I own and generally collect the mint one!

There is a need for this service! How wide spread the need is, is another question!

CGC at first had a rough time getting their "business model" off the ground, but now it is widely accepted. Most collectors don't dare buy a comic book sight unseen on eBay without it being CGC certified.

I do understand though, how controversial this topic is! Even certian CGC collectors have problems with their grading practices, etc. However, the company grew so powerful that now the collectors can barely stop it.

[Vectorman0]

This has come up in the past. Every time, you have both people that say they don't want it to happen, and people that say it just won't work. And it won't, for a few reasons. The first is this hobby is too small compared to other hobbies with the grading systems. The second is that there isn't much money involved in game collection compared to other hobbies with grading. The most important is that you will mainly be catering to sealed collectors, and you are not going to be able to tell between fakes and legits with good enough accuracy; eventually you will lose your reputation after grading a few reseals. And to top it all off, you will be hated by everyone here and ruin the hobby; and why would you want to do that? Maybe you are in it for the money, but you seem to have enough as it is.

[Razor Ramon]

Do it yo!

Put your financial backing into it!

[neuropolitique]

Another point is this: I have bought brand new games and the contents have been damaged. The argument that because something is new it must be mint is a falsehood. Has anybody ever gotten a PS2 game with "shaken manual syndrome?" The manual gets damage from rattling around in the case. This happened with my Odin Sphere game and a few others, however, I buy two copies of every game I own and generally collect the mint one!

There is a need for this service! How wide spread the need is, is another question!

How, exactly, would this "service" be able to tell me if the manual in a sealed game is damaged? Will they employ an xray machine to determine manual and disc health? Also, once the game is hermetically sealed what's to stop the same manual damage from occurring. So now you have no idea, when buying a graded game, if some guy's two year old hasn't gotten hold of it and shook it for hours on end damaging the manual and knocking the disc around as well. So, in essence, the grading is absolutely no indication of the condition of the game inside.

The need for this service is only spread as far as you and your "friends"!

[raregamergirl]

Re: Neogamer.

OK, so in order to know if the factory sealed game has mint inner contents (99+ percent do), you would have to open it. Is your grading service going to open a factory sealed game? If so, nobody is going to send you a game they know is a legit factory sealed title. You can't grade the inner contents without opening the factory sealed game. Yes. you can hear shaking, but generally only with disc based games. Generally, it is the cart based factory sealed games that are collectible.

[neogamer]

Re: Neogamer.

OK, so in order to know if the factory sealed game has mint inner contents (99+ percent do), you would have to open it. Is your grading service going to open a factory sealed game? If so, nobody is going to send you a game they know is a legit factory sealed title. You can't grade the inner contents without opening the factory sealed game. Yes. you can hear shaking, but generally only with disc based games. Generally, it is the cart based factory sealed games that are collectible.

You guys seem to be missing the point! All I was trying to do was respond to his ideology that some collectors believe that because they are buying a factory sealed game the inner contents cannot be damaged. Is that true? Absolutely not! There is a good chance that they are not damaged! In fact, the odds are with you and that is why I buy new! However, the other 1-2% of games do suffer some damage.

Now to answer your question:

1. I was approached by two interested parties to submit financial backing. I am not directly involved, so please keep that in mind. However, looking over their business plan and due to confidentiality reasons I cannot post directly about it, they want to grade both FACTORY SEALED games (without openeding them) and opened complete games! Both disc based games and cartridge based games are on the list, although it appears that they will not be grading loose games at this point.

2. Hate to break it to you, but are you aware that CGC graded comic books can be damaged in the plastic slab? It is called "shaking comic syndrome." It is when the comic book hits against the inner well of the slab and it damages the contents. It has been a problem since the year 2001, but collectors still pay $50,000+ for that Amazing Spider-Man #1 graded CGC 9.4 (unrestored).
The engineers at CGC are working on this, but they claim it happens by shaking or shipping the comic book in question. Interesting thought...

I will address the other questions in another reply.

[neogamer]

How, exactly, would this "service" be able to tell me if the manual in a sealed game is damaged? Will they employ an xray machine to determine manual and disc health? Also, once the game is hermetically sealed what's to stop the same manual damage from occurring. So now you have no idea, when buying a graded game, if some guy's two year old hasn't gotten hold of it and shook it for hours on end damaging the manual and knocking the disc around as well. So, in essence, the grading is absolutely no indication of the condition of the game inside.

The need for this service is only spread as far as you and your "friends"!

No this service will not employ an x-ray machine, sorry to say. It's not mentioned anywhere in the info I have LOL!

To answer your other question: Guess what: when you pay $50,000 for a CGC graded comic book or even $500 for a CGC graded comic book you have no idea whether or not someone has shook the slab! See my other post about "shaken comic syndrome". You can also research it on the CGC website!

Same is true with AFA that someone brought up! I hate to say this, but right now AFA (Action Figure Authority) does have a lot of collector confidence. When they graded the Star Wars game, it was because it was Star Wars related, it had nothing to do with the video game collecting field.

You guys are welcome to ask me any question you would like, but keep in mind one thing: I am not the one doing this, as of yet (no check was signed or given to any interested party), all I am doing is asking your opinions. In the end, if you don't want this, now is your time to speak. I welcome your opinions, but don't attack me for something I am asking opinions on. If I didn't value what you had to say, I wouldn't of taken the time to ask, trust me on that!

[GrandAmChandler]

No this service will not employ an x-ray machine, sorry to say. It's not mentioned anywhere in the info I have LOL!

To answer your other question: Guess what: when you pay $50,000 for a CGC graded comic book or even $500 for a CGC graded comic book you have no idea whether or not someone has shook the slab! See my other post about "shaken comic syndrome". You can also research it on the CGC website!

Same is true with AFA that someone brought up! I hate to say this, but right now AFA (Action Figure Authority) does have a lot of collector confidence. When they graded the Star Wars game, it was because it was Star Wars related, it had nothing to do with the video game collecting field.

You guys are welcome to ask me any question you would like, but keep in mind one thing: I am not the one doing this, as of yet (no check was signed or given to any interested party), all I am doing is asking your opinions. In the end, if you don't want this, now is your time to speak. I welcome your opinions, but don't attack me for something I am asking opinions on. If I didn't value what you had to say, I wouldn't of taken the time to ask, trust me on that!

Please, get one of your "interested parties" on here quick. If their name rhymes with Lighter-17 or Rididiots, tell them not to bother....

[neuropolitique]

The biggest difference between a sealed game and comics is that you can see the damage on a comic. With a sealed game you will never know what condition the insides are in.

If you are presented with a graded comic you will be able to notice and shake damage that would not warrant the grade. How can you do this with a sealed game?

[Vectorman0]

The biggest difference between a sealed game and comics is that you can see the damage on a comic. With a sealed game you will never know what condition the insides are in.

If you are presented with a graded comic you will be able to notice and shake damage that would not warrant the grade. How can you do this with a sealed game?

You base the grade soley on the case and insert, but mainly the cellophane.

[Sothy]

Oh hell no

[djbeatmongrel]

Neogamer, where in PA do you live? I want to come over and open your games... errr... hang.

[ChronoTriggaFoo]

I don't think anyone's really so much attacking you as the idea. Most everyone on this board are passionate about playing the games, and slabbing/grading does not endorse that at all. It's an anti-gaming threat. Now if these cases provided some sort of airtight seal, then you might have something as far as preserving/conserving the games for the future. But the prevailing attitude in all collectible categories affected by slabbing/grading is simply greed. How much money can this net me now or in the future?

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

Having spent some time in the comic book scene a while back, I can see some definite problems. I remember reading about a dealer at a comic expo who brought in hundreds, if not thousands of the recent "Death of Captain America" issue to be graded/slabbed. So now instead of selling for $4 or $5 for some poor schlub to actually read, they are going for much more for someone to put in a box somewhere to hopefully make money at a later date.

Also, there needs to be a huge separation between any group which would grade collectibles and those who buy/sell them. Case in point, the Beckett magazine empire offers a comic grading service and then also sells their own graded comics. Conflict of interest? You tell me.

I have never understood the attraction to slabbed collectibles other than coins. It only serves to take stuff out of the realm of use and relegate them to dust gatherers.

JY

[98PaceCar]

This is a horrible idea. The only thing that will come from this is a few people will profit greatly while the hobby is brought even more into the mainstream. If something like this came to pass, the market will be flooded with tons of copies of ET or Super Mario Bros at stupidly high prices just because it should grade > 8 or 9 due to having a nice label. A quick search through any classifieds to Craigslist will prove that non-collectors already think anything retro is worth it's weight in gold. Providing a 'trustworthy' backing organization that will tell you that the condition is X and therefore it's worth X*5 will only make that worse.

One question out of curiosity though, since video games are interactive and can actually stop working, how do they propose to actually prove that the game works? I can come up with stacks of games that I guarantee they will have no way of testing. So it could come to pass that a mint but non working copy of a rare game could grade higher than a cosmetically challenged but working copy. How would that be handled? That also begs the question of grading consoles and accessories as well as coming up with a method to secure them from tampering after the grade has been given.

Grading comics or cards is easy. There are only so many things that can be taken into account on them and the grading can be very uniform (this is coming from my discussions with a comic collector that has a large number of CGC graded books). But when you start getting into video games the difficulty in grading ramps up due to the sheer complexity of what is required to grade something fairly.

[neogamer]

Neogamer, where in PA do you live? I want to come over and open your games... errr... hang.

ONCE AGAIN, I DON'T COLLECT SEALED GAMES-GOT THAT, YET!

Also, we are talking games, not consoles, accessories, or the like, so please stick to that.

The rules of limitation would be that you would have to submit games that can be tested and do have to work. Obviously, there is no way to test a factory sealed game. Proto-types would probably be out of the question at this point.

If you submit a coin for grading at NGC or PCGS (two well known grading companies) they can REFUSE to certify it for any reason they see fit. Keep that in mind. So can any other gtrading company.

Let's not get off the beaten path. We are discussing if this is a plausible idea in our hobby. Don't post what if...scenerios unless you have some facts to back them up (i.e. other collectible sources, etc.)

[Lady Jaye]

I'm a gamer, not a collector, and I don't give a shit how minty or not are my games. Do my games work? If they don't look like they went through a tornado, then it's fine with me. I paid next to nothing for my loose copy of Super Mario RPG on the SNES because part of the label is torn. To a collector, this copy is worthless. For a gamer like me, it's an opportunity to play a good game in its original format without paying top bucks just so it'd sit pretty in my bookshelves.

[neogamer]

I'm a gamer, not a collector, and I don't give a shit how minty or not are my games. Do my games work? If they don't look like they went through a tornado, then it's fine with me. I paid next to nothing for my loose copy of Super Mario RPG on the SNES because part of the label is torn. To a collector, this copy is worthless. For a gamer like me, it's an opportunity to play a good game in its original format without paying top bucks just so it'd sit pretty in my bookshelves.


No offense, but this idea does not pretain to you then does it? If you are a gamer, or a reader of comic books, or you play with action figures, you could care less about preserving them and their condition.

But what about the other ones who do...

that is the question and that is where the debate stems from...

[Lady Jaye]

This is how you opened your thread:


Sorry to say this and a lot of you are going to hate me for saying this, but if you are solely a gamer, you will not like this thread. If you read it you will see why. I still want your opinion though! Just tell me in your post whether you are more of a gamer or collector. I cannot stress the importance of this thread!

And you need a serious change of attitude.

[crazyjackcsa]

ONCE AGAIN, I DON'T COLLECT SEALED GAMES-GOT THAT, YET!

Also, we are talking games, not consoles, accessories, or the like, so please stick to that.

The rules of limitation would be that you would have to submit games that can be tested and do have to work. Obviously, there is no way to test a factory sealed game. Proto-types would probably be out of the question at this point.

If you submit a coin for grading at NGC or PCGS (two well known grading companies) they can REFUSE to certify it for any reason they see fit. Keep that in mind. So can any other gtrading company.

Let's not get off the beaten path. We are discussing if this is a plausible idea in our hobby. Don't post what if...scenerios unless you have some facts to back them up (i.e. other collectible sources, etc.)


You can't test sealed games, unless you unseal them. And then reseal them, which would negate the sealing as they wouldn't be factory sealed. Which is a problem. Then if you buy a game that you certified as working and mint, then in two years somebody cracks your seal open and it doesn't? Then what? A liability waiver on your part? that doesn't get it any further. to be honest, I understand what your saying I just can't see it helping the "little guy" on digitpress or ebay for that matter.

[98PaceCar]

Also, we are talking games, not consoles, accessories, or the like, so please stick to that.

The rules of limitation would be that you would have to submit games that can be tested and do have to work. Obviously, there is no way to test a factory sealed game.

If you submit a coin for grading at NGC or PCGS (two well known grading companies) they can REFUSE to certify it for any reason they see fit. Keep that in mind.

Let's not get off the beaten path. We are discussing if this is a plausible idea in our hobby. Don't post what if...scenerios unless you have some facts to back them up (i.e. other collectible sources, etc.)

When a car goes through the grading process, it's the whole thing that's graded and not just say, the engine or interior. Look at some of the Bloomington Gold certifications for Corvettes for examples. In video games, the console is as important to the whole as the game is, so how can you not grade them? Sure, you have 1 console to hundreds of games, but it's still a part of the necessary gear to use it.

You say the game has to be testable to be graded, so it's possible that my CougarBoy collection can't be graded because it doesn't meet some artifically created limitation based on the grading company not having a system to test it with? Any collector that knows anything will agree that a CougarBoy is just as much a true console as any other, so it can't be considered ungradable if you are grading video games just because it is more obscure. Now, I'm sure that the comparitively small amount of money that can be made by grading CougarBoy games when they could be grading NES games will create that limitation and that's where the base problem comes into play. Grading is nothing more than a money making scheme and a way to make a few people feel better about what they own.

And before it comes up, my reasons for being against this are not based on what my collection could or could not be worth. In fact, grading would increase the value of what I have by a tremendous amount and even just the possiblility of the hobby becoming more mainstream would have a great financial benefit to me. I'm against it because there is no reason to have it. If a game is in a condition I want, I buy it and may even pay a small amount over the market price if I feel it warrants the price. If it's not, I pass on it. But outside of a few of the 'real' collectors I know, I don't trust anybody else's gradings as they are all open to interpretation. Even if they came from a reputable grading source.

[neogamer]

You can't test sealed games, unless you unseal them. And then reseal them, which would negate the sealing as they wouldn't be factory sealed. Which is a problem. Then if you buy a game that you certified as working and mint, then in two years somebody cracks your seal open and it doesn't? Then what? A liability waiver on your part? that doesn't get it any further. to be honest, I understand what your saying I just can't see it helping the "little guy" on digitpress or ebay for that matter.

I already addressed that they would NOT be unsealing factory sealed games. I think you don't understand what I am saying! They would be grading two types of games: FACTORY SEALED GAMES and COMJPLETE games. COMPLETE games would be tested. Obviously, factory sealed games, as I stated earlier would not be!

Keep in mind, since you are grading a game that has been sent to you by someone and you verify if to be FACTORY SEALED, you are responsible for stating that. However, you are NOT RESPONSIBLE if that game does not work. That is a seperate legal issue, but that was already brought up by me and answered by one of the so called creators of this idea during our initial meeting...

Sorry to say in capitalism the grading company decides what it wants to grade! I said this before, so I will not address your statement 98PACECAR, I am sorry!

CGC and coin grading services decide what they want to grade so can this company! They are quite successful and still in business. NGC and PCGS do NOT grade world coins and CGC does not grade treasury size comics! Okay? Enough said on that topic.

I want to know opinions and facts that tell me where you guys think this should go.

Believe it or not, I actually think this is a bad idea (that's why I am posting this here first among you guys), but after listening to both sides of the story, I am more willing to write the check for $25,000.00+, count it as a loss, let them run it, and hope for the best....

Attack the issue, not me. Even before I was approached about this, I have heard rumblings about this in other areas where people have taken notice of our hobby. Most are in it for the money. At least if I am involved, it won't be that way! Of course I expect ROI (return on investment), but I also love games, etc.

[GrandAmChandler]

Poll Added. Now we can see the real stats.

-GAC-

[Sosage]

Doesn't this hobby already have a good grading system/price guide? What was the place called? I can't remember. The site was red and black though. I think it had a navigation bar to the left with the words "online rarity guide" or something like that. I think it was put together by a community of fellow gamers/collectors. God damn. What is the name of that community guys? Help me out.

You know what community could use plastic slabs? Those guys that collect shoes. Tell your backers to slab up their shit instead. Shoes are to be looked at, not worn. Thanks!

[98PaceCar]

Sorry to say in capitalism the grading company decides what it wants to grade! I said this before, so I will not address your statement 98PACECAR, I am sorry!

That is true, I'm just pointing out why this plan will fail. Grading systems serve no real purpose other than to make a small segment of insecure people feel better about themselves based on judging the condition of material possessions.

[neogamer]

Doesn't this hobby already have a good grading system/price guide? What was the place called? I can't remember. The site was red and black though. I think it had a navigation bar to the left with the words "online rarity guide" or something like that. I think it was put together by a community of fellow gamers/collectors. God damn. What is the name of that community guys? Help me out.

You know what community could use plastic slabs? Those guys that collect shoes. Tell your backers to slab up their shit instead. Shoes are to be looked at, not worn. Thanks!

Oh yeah, please explain in detail the grading system used? Is it numerical? What if your definition of mint differs from mine?

What if the seal is moderately torn on that factory sealed game I want to buy? Do you consider that a defect? I do.

Here is a picture of my item. Please grade it! Yeah, that works great...

we really are stuck in the dark ages...

and you guys wonder why I would consider pushing the hobby forward with this!

BTW: I am the financial backer, not the creator! You have it backwards!

[neogamer]

That is true, I'm just pointing out why this plan will fail. Grading systems serve no real purpose other than to make a small segment of insecure people feel better about themselves based on judging the condition of material possessions.


Really that is why:

PCGS, NGC, CGC, AND AFA are all profitable companies!

Because they fail? Come on...

[98PaceCar]

Really that is why:

PCGS, NGC, CGC, AND AFA are all profitable companies!

Because they fail? Come on...

There's a lot of insecure people in the world...

[Kroogah]

http://www.spaceballsthewebsite.com/yashiro/Faces/1190515239189.jpg

[neogamer]

There's a lot of insecure people in the world...


Educate yourself on third party grading before making a comment like that. It has nothing to do with insecurities, etc.

It has to do with creating a set grading standard that everyone can benefit from.

Prices reflect that...

I guess in your opinion someone who pays $50,000 for a comic book is insecure. Really? Maybe he just wanted to be sure he didn't pay $50,000 for a comic book that happened to be restored...

thus resulting in a significant loss of value (for those who don't know the comic book industry, restored comic books are worth a lot less than their "original" untouched counterparts-same is true in most other collectibles-note the word collectibles and not antiquities))

[98PaceCar]

You know, I'm really curious here. Don't take this as a flame or attack, I'm honestly trying to figure you out...

You've stated in several threads about how you are an MBA student with a ton of disposable cash and a love of gaming. You've talked at length about wanting to open a game store and now come at us with the fact that you are a possible backer in a grading company. How much of what you are posting is based on a love of gaming versus a love of making money off of gaming? There's a lot of people here that make money with the hobby ranging from selling a few dupes on eBay to running full B&M stores, but all of them seem a lot more geniune than you are coming across. You've been a member here for about 2 months now and nearly every thread I've seen from you centers around how to make a profit from gamers. Now I don't read everything posted and I sure don't have any desire to read everything you (or anybody else) posts, but from my sampling this seems to be a very common theme. I also have a very hard time believing that someone with an MBA would be remotely interested in the daily operations of a small franchise game store.

Again, not a flame, just an observation (though a bit pointed I guess).

[Sosage]

Oh yeah, please explain in detail the grading system used? Is it numerical? What if your definition of mint differs from mine?

R1-9. Loose or complete. Average worth. Seems to be working fairly well so far.

As for mint, of course my definition is going to be different. We can't even agree on what a complete collection is around here and never will (third party or not). Come on. Wake up. You've been here for 500+ posts. This should be obvious!


What if the seal is moderately torn on that factory sealed game I want to buy? Do you consider that a defect? I do.

Since when is opening and playing a game a defect? I'd say the only defect is that you stopped at the tear. Keep going God damn it! Do you have stumps for hands? Rip that mother fucker open, dig the cart out and start playing!


Here is a picture of my item. Please grade it! Yeah, that works great...

Worked fine so far. If you're into taking pictures of your games.


we really are stuck in the dark ages...

I'll hang with the primates then, future boy.


and you guys wonder why I would consider pushing the hobby forward with this!

Over a cliff? I think that is what a lot of us are wondering as well.


BTW: I am the financial backer, not the creator! You have it backwards!

So again. Take my recommendation. Shoes! That's the next big collectible thing.

In case you haven't caught on that I am yanking your chain a tad. Here's a wink smile. ;)

[neogamer]

You know, I'm really curious here. Don't take this as a flame or attack, I'm honestly trying to figure you out...

You've stated in several threads about how you are an MBA student with a ton of disposable cash and a love of gaming. You've talked at length about wanting to open a game store and now come at us with the fact that you are a possible backer in a grading company. How much of what you are posting is based on a love of gaming versus a love of making money off of gaming? There's a lot of people here that make money with the hobby ranging from selling a few dupes on eBay to running full B&M stores, but all of them seem a lot more geniune than you are coming across. You've been a member here for about 2 months now and nearly every thread I've seen from you centers around how to make a profit from gamers. Now I don't read everything posted and I sure don't have any desire to read everything you (or anybody else) posts, but from my sampling this seems to be a very common theme. I also have a very hard time believing that someone with an MBA would be remotely interested in the daily operations of a small franchise game store.

Again, not a flame, just an observation (though a bit pointed I guess).

What would having an MBA do with wanting a franchise? If you need to know I graduated with honors from ALBRIGHT UNIVERSITY in reading, PA for my bachelors in business. I am now ten months away from getting my MBA from Kutztown University, but I also take a few courses (in undergraduate work at Albright).

I work as a financial analyst at a major mutual fund company in the Philadelphia region. I really don't see your point.

I come from a "wealthy" family and have always loved games! I make a good amount of money, but live frugally due to a rigid upbringing.

I used to be an eBay powerseller and actually sold games! I loved it, but unfortunately it wasn't good enough for my father! Okay?

Maybe the fact that I am educated in business hides my love for games? Did you ever consider that? I equate everything with value! That is just the way I am.

I hope that answers your question. Please respond, so I know if I have to scan in my college degrees, social security cards, pay stubs, etc. LOL

[cyberfluxor]

Your poll doesn't give enough options, where's the terrible idea? It isn't worth anyones time to reiterate what's already been said but for sure it'd ruin whoever is running and backing it. All you need to do is read some of the outragous prices people find in the wild and you'll know this hobby isn't full of deep pockets, we're bargin hunters and mostly players, not die hard collectors. Also if you wonder into a GameStop and see the casual modern gamers stroll in they're willing to trade newer games for chump change, obviously you can't market to those gamers.

And back off Jady Jaye, it's not like she pissed in your cereal.

[neogamer]

Your poll doesn't give enough options, where's the terrible idea? It isn't worth anyones time to reiterate what's already been said but for sure it'd ruin whoever is running and backing it. All you need to do is read some of the outragous prices people find in the wild and you'll know this hobby isn't full of deep pockets, we're bargin hunters and mostly players, not die hard collectors. Also if you wonder into a GameStop and see the casual modern gamers stroll in they're willing to trade newer games for chump change, obviously you can't market to those gamers.

And back off Jady Jaye, it's not like she pissed in your cereal.

First, if you are addressing me, I DID NOT ADD the poll! I am however glad it is there so I can gauge interest on these forums.

Okay?

[98PaceCar]

Educate yourself on third party grading before making a comment like that. It has nothing to do with insecurities, etc.

It has to do with creating a set grading standard that everyone can benefit from.

Prices reflect that...

I guess in your opinion someone who pays $50,000 for a comic book is insecure. Really? Maybe he just wanted to be sure he didn't pay $50,000 for a comic book that happened to be restored...

If someone can buy something for $10 or $50 with the only difference being that the $50 one is slabbed and can never be enjoyed but the condition is what a rational person would consider equal, yea, anybody that buys the $50 one is an idiot. Why get the one that's sealed and can't be enjoyed? It looks pretty on a shelf and someone else may be willing to pay the same amount for it. So?

Anybody who spends any real money without doing their own reseach on condition gets what they deserve.

Now lets go on to the next obvious issue since I clearly don't know anything about grading systems. What is your opinion of the books that have slipped through CGC grading as restored or modified, but aren't marked as such? One prevalant problem in particular is books that are trimmed. How many people have bought a 9.0 white page copy of a book only to find out later (or worse, not even know) that it's been trimmed? Yea, CGC may refund part of the money if it's proven that the grade is wrong, but that's not really the point for collectors of high end items, is it?

Same basic thing can happen here. Once the grading system comes into play, person X who's sitting on a stack of some rare game decides to have them all buffed out, slapped in new jewel cases, graded, and sold for much higher than he would have gotten before. Simple things that happen all the time. But if I spend extra money on a graded game and it turns out to be a restored game, what then? There's no way I'm going to trust a third party to tell me that this game has not been restored, I'm going to want my own opinion of that based on my expertise.

[neogamer]

If someone can buy something for $10 or $50 with the only difference being that the $50 one is slabbed and can never be enjoyed but the condition is what a rational person would consider equal, yea, anybody that buys the $50 one is an idiot. Why get the one that's sealed and can't be enjoyed? It looks pretty on a shelf and someone else may be willing to pay the same amount for it. So?

Anybody who spends any real money without doing their own reseach on condition gets what they deserve.

Now lets go on to the next obvious issue since I clearly don't know anything about grading systems. What is your opinion of the books that have slipped through CGC grading as restored or modified, but aren't marked as such? One prevalant problem in particular is books that are trimmed. How many people have bought a 9.0 white page copy of a book only to find out later (or worse, not even know) that it's been trimmed? Yea, CGC may refund part of the money if it's proven that the grade is wrong, but that's not really the point for collectors of high end items, is it?

Same basic thing can happen here. Once the grading system comes into play, person X who's sitting on a stack of some rare game decides to have them all buffed out, slapped in new jewel cases, graded, and sold for much higher than he would have gotten before. Simple things that happen all the time. But if I spend extra money on a graded game and it turns out to be a restored game, what then? There's no way I'm going to trust a third party to tell me that this game has not been restored, I'm going to want my own opinion of that based on my expertise.

First, I hope you are content with my educational background, financial history, and family tree as posted previously. I assume you still doubt my love of games though, right? Or you don't like future MBA's?

Anyway, off to your questions!

Number one:

A grading company is supposed to set standards in a hobby. This is something we do NOT have an badly need!

Number 2, what is your definition of a restored game? What is mine? The grading company will define it. Whether or not you choose to accept it is up to you. CGC does the same thing.

Third, the fiasco your talking about affected less than 0.01% of all books in question and CGC will gladly review them for free. That was not even worth mentioning.

How are you supposed to do your research when you are buying an item sight unseen on eBay? Hey can you ship it to me so I can examine it? If I like it, I'll buy it! Come on...

Just out of curiosity how do you (personally) define a restored game? I brought up that topic a few weeks ago and was nearly laughed at, but since you are disagreeing with me, I guess no one will laugh at you! After all, I am the bad guy. I may back a company that grades video games! A company that has the power to bring A SET GRADING STANDARD TO THE MASSES. It would make buying an item sight unseen practical!

[98PaceCar]

What would having an MBA do with wanting a franchise? If you need to know I graduated with honors from ALBRIGHT UNIVERSITY in reading, PA for my bachelors in business. I am now ten months away from getting my MBA from Kutztown University, but I also take a few courses (in undergraduate work at Albright).

I work as a financial analyst at a major mutual fund company in the Philadelphia region. I really don't see your point.

I come from a "wealthy" family and have always loved games! I make a good amount of money, but live frugally due to a rigid upbringing.

I used to be an eBay powerseller and actually sold games! I loved it, but unfortunately it wasn't good enough for my father! Okay?

Maybe the fact that I am educated in business hides my love for games? Did you ever consider that? I equate everything with value! That is just the way I am.

I hope that answers your question. Please respond, so I know if I have to scan in my college degrees, social security cards, pay stubs, etc. LOL

What does an MBA have to do with wanting to run a video game store? I would think someone with an MBA would be more interested in making real money than the relatively small amount that a game store will net. Now if you expand it out and own 10-20 stores, it may get to the point where it's enough of a money maker to cover what someone with your obvious skills could make in a more traditional job. Just seems a waste to have gone through all of that schooling when I see teenagers that can barely keep their pants pulled above their ass running successful game stores all the time. <shrug>

No need to compare paystubs, degrees, houses, dick size, whatever else you feel like using. I'm completely comfortable with what I have and confident that I would compare very favorably in every category with you. (besides, some people believe that comparing such things could be construed as insecurity)

[cyberfluxor]

First, if you are addressing me, I DID NOT ADD the poll! I am however glad it is there so I can gauge interest on these forums.

Okay?

Oh, now you're yelling at me. I clicked on the thread right when the poll was added and around when GAC posted about his addition. Also, remember this is a gamer community so flaunting an MBA won't get you far here and most are more passionate about playing than making cash.

[neogamer]

What does an MBA have to do with wanting to run a video game store? I would think someone with an MBA would be more interested in making real money than the relatively small amount that a game store will net. Now if you expand it out and own 10-20 stores, it may get to the point where it's enough of a money maker to cover what someone with your obvious skills could make in a more traditional job. Just seems a waste to have gone through all of that schooling when I see teenagers that can barely keep their pants pulled above their ass running successful game stores all the time. <shrug>

No need to compare paystubs, degrees, houses, dick size, whatever else you feel like using. I'm completely comfortable with what I have and confident that I would compare very favorably in every category with you. (besides, some people believe that comparing such things could be construed as insecurity)

Ever hear of an "area developer?"

It's when you have an ample amount of money to invest in a franchise (i.e. Play N Trade comes to mind) and you quickly want to expand on it. 10-20 stores in a given area is a good size to work on, although they usually start at five, okay?

Anyway quick note: most MBA's make $70,000-$90,000 with experience. I make more than that right now. An area developer makes about $150,000 to $250,000 a year to start. That answer that question?

BTW: Keep the foul language to a minimum. That alone tells me you could not comfortably compare (which I doubt you could anyway) with me, okay?

This is turning into a flame war, I got to end this. I have the answers I need anyway. Why continue it?

[98PaceCar]

First, I hope you are content with my educational background, financial history, and family tree as posted previously. I assume you still doubt my love of games though, right? Or you don't like future MBA's?

Anyway, off to your questions!

Number one:

A grading company is supposed to set standards in a hobby. This is something we do NOT have an badly need!

Number 2, what is your definition of a restored game? What is mine? The grading company will define it. Whether or not you choose to accept it is up to you. CGC does the same thing.

Third, the fiasco your talking about affected less than 0.01% of all books in question and CGC will gladly review them for free. That was not even worth mentioning.

How are you supposed to do your research when you are buying an item sight unseen on eBay? Hey can you ship it to me so I can examine it? If I like it, I'll buy it! Come on...


I have no reason to believe or doubt your love of games. I don't know you or know anybody that knows you. As for your financial/educational background, I addressed that in my prior post.

True, a grading system would bring some consistency to the hobby, but at what cost? Sure, the act of grading a game would probably be an inconsequential amount of money to the collectors that would have games that should be graded. But the problem is that it will not be just these collectors that grade their games. It will be pops down the street whos kids left a Genesis behind as well. He will see that copy of Sonic and since he read that Sonic in 9.4 condition sells for $30. He slaps it on Craigslist for $15 bucks thinking he will make some money on it. Some kid that doesn't know any better plops down the money for it and goes on his way. The next guy sees a history of selling for $15 and prices his at $20. So on and so on until we are all paying huge amounts of money for games that should be used as skeet.

Add to that the people that have no interest whatsoever in gaming and only want to make a buck taking all of the fun out of the hobby. It used to be about the hunt, but more and more the only hunting that can be done is online and that's just no fun. I'd rather keep the hobby on the qt and be able to truly enjoy it rather than worry about how much I'm going to need to spend on something or not using it because it might get a nick in the label and depreciate by 50%.

Only .01% sure made for a lot of upset collectors though, didn't it? How would you feel if you got your grail game only to find out it was improperly graded. But hey, they will regrade it and devalue it appropriately for you with a token amount of cash thrown in. Not really worth the hassle imo.

The ebay thing is an interesting issue as well. I've bought several games that fetch very good money through ebay without seeing them. Was it a gamble, sure. But the thing is I did enough research on them myself that I was comfotable with what I was getting. If it was through pictures, asking very pointed questions, or even having a local collector go look at it for me, I did what it took. I've never been burned on condition of anything I've bought. So bringing in a grading system is only going to increase the amount I have to pay while netting me zero in return. Of course I'm against it.

[Sosage]

Anyway quick note: most MBA's make $70,000-$90,000 with experience. I make more than that right now. An area developer makes about $150,000 to$250,000 a year to start. That answer that question?

Fantastic. Who was the ass that asked Mr. MBA what he makes in a year? Thanks. Now we have someone flapping their e-penis all over everyone in the room. You know these stains don't come out.


This is turning into a flame war, I got to end this. I have the answers I need anyway. Why continue it?

So you're going into shoes? Glad we could help!

[neogamer]

I have no reason to believe or doubt your love of games. I don't know you or know anybody that knows you. As for your financial/educational background, I addressed that in my prior post.

True, a grading system would bring some consistency to the hobby, but at what cost? Sure, the act of grading a game would probably be an inconsequential amount of money to the collectors that would have games that should be graded. But the problem is that it will not be just these collectors that grade their games. It will be pops down the street whos kids left a Genesis behind as well. He will see that copy of Sonic and since he read that Sonic in 9.4 condition sells for $30. He slaps it on Craigslist for $15 bucks thinking he will make some money on it. Some kid that doesn't know any better plops down the money for it and goes on his way. The next guy sees a history of selling for $15 and prices his at $20. So on and so on until we are all paying huge amounts of money for games that should be used as skeet.

Add to that the people that have no interest whatsoever in gaming and only want to make a buck taking all of the fun out of the hobby. It used to be about the hunt, but more and more the only hunting that can be done is online and that's just no fun. I'd rather keep the hobby on the qt and be able to truly enjoy it rather than worry about how much I'm going to need to spend on something or not using it because it might get a nick in the label and depreciate by 50%.

Only .01% sure made for a lot of upset collectors though, didn't it? How would you feel if you got your grail game only to find out it was improperly graded. But hey, they will regrade it and devalue it appropriately for you with a token amount of cash thrown in. Not really worth the hassle imo.

The ebay thing is an interesting issue as well. I've bought several games that fetch very good money through ebay without seeing them. Was it a gamble, sure. But the thing is I did enough research on them myself that I was comfotable with what I was getting. If it was through pictures, asking very pointed questions, or even having a local collector go look at it for me, I did what it took. I've never been burned on condition of anything I've bought. So bringing in a grading system is only going to increase the amount I have to pay while netting me zero in return. Of course I'm against it.

I answered all your questions, but never again doubt my background or my love of games, okay? I don't waste the time I put into coming here for fun or lies. Understand this.

I have met some people on these boards if you doubt me, ask. Some I met at conventions. Others know me through the grapevine. I don't like to put people on the "spot", but trust me, they will vouch for me as well!

Other than that I completely disagree with you!

What about that person who feels ripped off because he bought what he thought was a near mint or mint game and he received it in poor condition! Third party grading would eliminate that!

Know one ever looks at the other end. Buying a collectible sight unseen is a gamble and with ebay it is even more of a gamble! Maybe in the end, there in lies the problem though...

I call a game a collectible, you call it a game...

and that is how I would like to end my part of the argument. If you want to post more or use the poll I will gladly jump back in if I see fit. But I think what I wrote above sums it all up! Remember in 1960, a comic book collector was a "rare breed". Today a video game collector is somewhat of a "rare breed". Maybe video games are future comic books and will be treasured for years to come. Maybe the people who want to grade games are visionairies or just money hungry capitalists, or plain stupid...only time will tell...

Thanks to all...

[98PaceCar]

Ever hear of an "area developer?"

It's when you have an ample amount of money to invest in a franchise (i.e. Play N Trade comes to mind) and you quickly want to expand on it. 10-20 stores in a given area is a good size to work on, although they usually start at five, okay?

Anyway quick note: most MBA's make $70,000-$90,000 with experience. I make more than that right now. An area developer makes about $150,000 to $250,000 a year to start. That answer that question?

BTW: Keep the foul language to a minimum. That alone tells me you could not comfortably compare (which I doubt you could anyway) with me, okay?

This is turning into a flame war, I got to end this. I have the answers I need anyway. Why continue it?

Just as an FYI, I came within about 3 days of making the decision to buy a local Play N Trade that came up for sale. Look up info on the Plano Tx store if you doubt it was available recently. I decided against it for my own personal reasons. So yes, I understand very well how they are structured and have a good idea of what an area manager does.

Foul language?? Now you're grasping. As far as comparing to you, anytime. I'm not ashamed of what I make, my education, or what I own. I just choose to not flaunt it on the net because in all honesty, anybody can say anything on the net with no consequences.

I agree, this does need to end. You've successfully answered all of my questions and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

[98PaceCar]

Fantastic. Who was the ass that asked Mr. MBA what he makes in a year? Thanks. Now we have someone flapping their e-penis all over everyone in the room. You know these stains don't come out.


Sorry, my bad. I thought that someone with an MBA would be better equipped to handle themselves in a discussion without resorting to dick waving. I'll get the mop!!

[neogamer]

Sorry, my bad. I thought that someone with an MBA would be better equipped to handle themselves in a discussion without resorting to dick waving. I'll get the mop!!

Again, it's that foul language thing I have a problem with. I guess your not that well equipped to handle an adult conversation, my bad...

Anyway, thank you for wishing me good luck and I wish you good luck as well. Okay? Can we end this on a fair neutral note?

This became a hot topic and struck a chord with a lot of collectors thus far...I will let "interested parties" know how you all feel.

[scooterb23]

I'm sure the name calling will help you gain even more friends in these forums.

This is at least the second time you've done that since you've joined, and it's really not appreciated.

[98PaceCar]

Again, it's that foul language thing I have a problem with. I guess your not that well equipped to handle an adult conversation, my bad...

Anyway, thank you for wishing me good luck and I wish you good luck as well. Okay? Can we end this on a fair neutral note?

This became a hot topic and struck a chord with a lot of collectors thus far...I will let "interested parties" know how you all feel.

Nobody has ever accused me of being an adult, so why should I start now? That would take all the fun out of life (and that's what we should all be doing anyway, having fun)!

(besides, you hear much worse than that on primetime local tv anymore)

I am sincere in hoping you have good luck. I've been in the process of trying to combine my hobby with something profitable for some time now. I haven't found the happy medium yet, but I'm still looking. Perhaps your efforts will net something that I can adapt to my own needs.

[bangtango]

Maybe the fact that I am educated in business hides my love for games?

No, it is your posts in threads like this and the recent one about PS1 game values jumping in price (i.e. charge whatever you like for them and see who buys), which is here:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107061

or this thread here:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107124



I'll admit I didn't look that hard but I haven't seen too many posts, if any, about you actually sitting down and playing or enjoying video games. So you've done a very good job about keeping any actual gaming you do hidden from the public.

As for your idea, I don't buy the kind of games that will be greatly inflated in price if a service like this ever gets off the ground. I'm fortunate enough to either buy my games new in a retail store or predominantly play games that are not in demand (sports games).

My only question is if this service will be used for all video games across the board, even $2 NES and Genesis games, or if it will be used solely as "certification" tailored for Ebay auctions or video game stores to justify "raising" the prices of HTF PS1, Sega Saturn, NES or Atari stuff (even more) that you and the backers either already own or plan to acquire right before this type of venture takes off?

[Carey85]

Hey guys, I just got back from getting my 2600 collection graded. They told me that I was an idiot and that games are for little kids and that I should move out of my mom's basement. I'm crushed, I don't think I can recover from this without resorting to dickwaving and/or namecalling...

BTW, I am a part-time city college student who makes $30k a year and drives an 11 year old car. Just had to throw that out there...

[Lady Jaye]

...and not just any car, but a Ford Escort! Gasp!!!

Did you calm the beef min yet today, Carey?

[Bojay1997]

Can we all please agree to just ignore this guy? If his questions are legitimate in most of these threads (which I seriously doubt), we shouldn't be assisting him in these business ventures since almost all of us are here because we love games and collect games. Trying to introduce more methods for entrepreneurs to get rich off a relatively small hobby, none of which will benefit any of us (i.e. won't make rare games more readily available, cheaper, available in better condition, increase the level of discourse about them, etc...) is not something we should be supporting. I'm also guessing that this guy just likes to argue and really could care less about how anyone responds to his trolling. So, can we please just all agree that this will be the last time we let him provoke responses? Thank you.

[Rob2600]

We can't even agree on what a complete collection is around here and never will (third party or not). Come on. Wake up. You've been here for 500+ posts. This should be obvious!

Neogamer joined two months ago and has 519 posts. That averages out to about nine posts a day, every day. I'd say he's the most prolific poster on this message board. Whether or not he is the most liked is a different story. :)

[JustRob]

The problem with introducing a third party to rate and grade games for the purpose of setting their value is that by necessity, that third party cannot care one little bit about the games themselves except in an impartial, materialistic way. To them the games being graded can exist as nothing more than objects to be scrutinized, labeled, and priced.

All of this boils down to the same old collector vs gamer debate. There can be a happy medium between both groups, and most of us try to live that medium.

There have been good, valid arguments for both sides of this. Yes, a third party grading system would bring some sense of stability to the hobby, but only in a sense that those who choose to accept that system and would be willing to pay the ridiculous amounts of money asked for graded games, would embrace it completely. Unfortunately, only those who see the hobby as a business or are the true hard-core collectors who buy the things for display and the personal satisfaction of being able to say "Look what I've accomplished," would ever truly be interested in this.

The great majority of us simply couldn't care less. "Complete" is the most we really want out of the condition of what we buy. I personally prefer to have my games CiB, but I'll buy up the components that make that completeness just to be that much closer. I buy the games to play and discover the history of the system that I may never have known when it was new. It also gives me something to strive for and adds a new dimension to my collecting habits. If I only have a loose carts, finding that random empty box or manual is just as awesome as finding the game.

The against arguments are, admittedly, in the majority here. We enjoy this hobby because it's fun to be able to find someone that brought us joy as kids, or something we never got the chance to enjoy but can now, or discovering something completely new and jumping into the experience of learning all about that new thing. The trick that makes all of this enjoyable is that we can (still) find most of these items on the cheap.

Prices have gone up with the introduction of eBay. It's inevitable that people would want to try and get some kind of monetary return on their games, and for those of us forced into that mass liquidation for financial reasons, this has been a good thing. However, once again, the only people who truly benefit from prices going up are the business owners or the predators that circle our little hobby, dollar signs in their eyes.

The truth is that the hobby is still small enough, still just out on the fringe enough, that any move that has the affect of raising prices dramatically, can do nothing but hurt the hobby as a hobby. With the widespread emulation available, and even legal ways of doing so such as VC or XBLA, the more casual among us have an outlet for that gaming fix without going through the expense or effort of collecting. Those of us who care about prices being reasonable enough to continue with the hobby will never accept "outsiders" being the ones to dictate the direction of pricing.

It comes down to what is best for the hobby, not what is best for the few who will profit off of the rest of us. A grading system and the subsequent explosion in ignorant public pricing can do nothing but hurt the hobby for those of us who still find some way of enjoying it.

We all started this because the games themselves gave us a little bit of joy that we otherwise would never have known. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to forgo taking my girlfriend out to dinner one night just to be able to afford to add another game to my collection.

[snes_collector]

Why waste our time sending a game to be graded when could be playing it?

It's just a bad idea dude, don't waste your time.

[cyberfluxor]

Bojay:
This is the thing that makes me mad. There are local stores that are in the game market JUST for the money and hire idiots to sell their inventory, but then there are some that are more about the community than the money. I visit the gamer oriented places more often because they appreciate the interest we have in the games and the hobby. They hold great conversations that can last for hours and there are tournaments to watch. They don't hike prices according to eBay and pay close attention to their clients/customers to insure they aren't going right to eBay to resell or give a good game to their kid that'll destory it. It's that sort of dedication that keeps these B&M stores in business and having so many return customers.

This proposal of a grading system is like a kick in the sack or spit in the face for the casual modern/classic/retro/vintage gamer that just happens to hang onto and collect those games they love and have attached memories to. The only thing that'd remotely interest me personally is making a nice gaming shelf, the epical games behind glass windows but to begin grading them, preposterous.

[cyberfluxor]

The problem with introducing a third party to rate and grade games for the purpose of setting their value is that by necessity, that third party cannot care one little bit about the games themselves except in an impartial, materialistic way. To them the games being graded can exist as nothing more than objects to be scrutinized, labeled, and priced.

All of this boils down to the same old collector vs gamer debate. There can be a happy medium between both groups, and most of us try to live that medium.

There have been good, valid arguments for both sides of this. Yes, a third party grading system would bring some sense of stability to the hobby, but only in a sense that those who choose to accept that system and would be willing to pay the ridiculous amounts of money asked for graded games, would embrace it completely. Unfortunately, only those who see the hobby as a business or are the true hard-core collectors who buy the things for display and the personal satisfaction of being able to say "Look what I've accomplished," would ever truly be interested in this.

The great majority of us simply couldn't care less. "Complete" is the most we really want out of the condition of what we buy. I personally prefer to have my games CiB, but I'll buy up the components that make that completeness just to be that much closer. I buy the games to play and discover the history of the system that I may never have known when it was new. It also gives me something to strive for and adds a new dimension to my collecting habits. If I only have a loose carts, finding that random empty box or manual is just as awesome as finding the game.

The against arguments are, admittedly, in the majority here. We enjoy this hobby because it's fun to be able to find someone that brought us joy as kids, or something we never got the chance to enjoy but can now, or discovering something completely new and jumping into the experience of learning all about that new thing. The trick that makes all of this enjoyable is that we can (still) find most of these items on the cheap.

Prices have gone up with the introduction of eBay. It's inevitable that people would want to try and get some kind of monetary return on their games, and for those of us forced into that mass liquidation for financial reasons, this has been a good thing. However, once again, the only people who truly benefit from prices going up are the business owners or the predators that circle our little hobby, dollar signs in their eyes.

The truth is that the hobby is still small enough, still just out on the fringe enough, that any move that has the affect of raising prices dramatically, can do nothing but hurt the hobby as a hobby. With the widespread emulation available, and even legal ways of doing so such as VC or XBLA, the more casual among us have an outlet for that gaming fix without going through the expense or effort of collecting. Those of us who care about prices being reasonable enough to continue with the hobby will never accept "outsiders" being the ones to dictate the direction of pricing.

It comes down to what is best for the hobby, not what is best for the few who will profit off of the rest of us. A grading system and the subsequent explosion in ignorant public pricing can do nothing but hurt the hobby for those of us who still find some way of enjoying it.

We all started this because the games themselves gave us a little bit of joy that we otherwise would never have known. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to forgo taking my girlfriend out to dinner one night just to be able to afford to add another game to my collection.
Amen!

[Starwander]

Just to throw out my two cents into the ring Neogamer I think that this is something worth funding. Personally I am tired of buying so called, “Mint” games only to find out they are anything less than mint. I have longed hoped for some type of unified grading system like this. I don’t collect sealed games mainly due to resealing issues, though I actually might consider taking up the hobby if something life this did get off the ground. Though as you mentioned this service would be available for complete, unsealed games as well, which is music to my ears. Since this is what I collect.

I think that some people do make a valid point that most likely some things will get past the graders, such as a resealed games. Though I think that these will be minor and insignificant cases that people will overlook in highlight of the benefit grading brings to the hobby. I am pretty sure that even the comic grading association has made a few mistakes every once and a while and are yet are still going strong.

One aspect of the criticism I see on these pages that I find hard to understand is the fact that some rare games typically sell for $500+ complete, with sealed versions going for far more. I know personally I would be willing to pay $20-$50 onto of that price to ensure the condition and authenticity of such items. Some people would disagree, but for me it just makes common sense.

In the end I think that you shouldn’t really take into consideration the opinions of the people of this forum. I think you should go with your instinct on this one, unless of course investing in such an opportunity could lead to financial ruin. Though these are just me two cents,