Roundtable Top 100. Ever. [09/20/04 UPDATE]

[Charlie]

Sigh... I have no life.

Advance Wars (GBA) KEEP
Adventure (2600) DROP
Alternate Reality: The Dungeon (C64) DROP
APB (Lynx) KEEP
Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit) *INCLUDE NES VERSION, KEEP
Arkanoid (NES) DROP
Asheron's Call (PC) DROP
Attack of the Timelord! (O2) EH... NETURAL ON THIS ONE
Axelay (SNES) DROP
Banjo Kazooie (N64) DROP... THIS GAME HAS NOT AGED WELL
Bard's Tale, The (C64) KEEP
Baseball Stars (NES) KEEP... OVER A DECADE LATER AND IT'S STILL THE BEST BASEBALL GAME EVER
Beamrider (INTV/5200) DROP
Blades of Vengeance (GEN) DROP
Blazing Lazers (TG-16) KEEP
Bomberman Party Edition (PSX) DROP... SATURN BOMBERMAN OR BOMBERMAN 64 ARCADE EDITION (JAPAN ONLY) IS THE SUPERIOR BOMBERMAN GAME
Bonk's Revenge (TG-16) KEEP
Boulder Dash II (Commodore 64) DROP
Bubble Bobble (NES/SMS/PSX) KEEP
Burgertime (Intellivision) KEEP
Cannon Fodder (Amiga, others) DROP
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse (NES) DROP, REPLACE WITH SIMON'S QUEST
Castlevania Symphony of the Night (PSX) KEEP, PLUS ADD CIRCLE OF THE MOON
Centipede (7800) DROP
Chrono Trigger (SNES) KEEP
Civilization (PC/PSX) DROP
Colony Wars (PSX) DROP
Combat (2600) KEEP
Conker's Bad Fur Day (N64) DROP
Contra (NES) KEEP
Crystal Castles (2600) KEEP
Daggerfall (PC) DROP
Dark Wizard (Sega CD) DROP
Deluxe Galaga (Amiga) DROP
Demon Attack (2600) DROP
Devil's Crush (TG-16) KEEP
Diablo KEEP, BUT MERGE IT WITH DIABLO 2
Diablo II w/ Expansion (PC)
Donkey Kong aka Donkey Kong '94 (Game Boy) KEEP. BEST HAND HELD ACTION GAME EVER
Doom (PC) KEEP, MERGE WITH DOOM 2
Doom II (PC)
Double Dragon (Genesis) DROP
Dr. Mario (NES) DROP... IF DR. MARIO IS TO BE ON THE LIST, THEN MAKE IT DR. MARIO 64
Dracula X (PCE Duo) KEEP
Dragon Warrior IV (NES) DROP... DRAGON WARRIOR 2 WAS BETTER
Dragon's Lair (3DO/Jag CD/CD-i) DROP. INNOVATIVE OR NOT, DRAGON'S LAIR WAS NOT A GOOD GAME AT ALL
Dragonstomper (2600) DROP
Dragster (2600) DROP
Dreadnaught Factor (Intellivision,/5200) DROP
Driver (GBC) DROP
Dune II (PC) DROP
Elite (C64) KEEP
EverQuest (PC) DROP
Final Fantasy II (SNES) KEEP
Final Fantasy III (SNES) KEEP
Final Fantasy VII (PSX) DROP
Final Fight (Sega CD) DROP... I FIND FINAL FIGHT TO BE A VERY SO WHAT BRAWLER
Fool's Errand, The (Mac) NEVER PLAYED IT
Fortune Builder (ColecoVision) DROP
Frequency (PS2) DROP
Galactic Attack (Saturn) DROP
Galaga (7800) DROP... NES VERSION WAS BETTER
Goldeneye 007 (N64) KEEP
Goonies II, The (NES) KEEP
Gran Turismo (PSX) DROP
Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) KEEP
Grand Theft Auto III (PS2) KEEP
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) KEEP
Grim Fandango (PC) LOL, KEEP
Guardian Heroes (Saturn) DROP
Gunstar Heroes(Genesis) KEEP
H.E.R.O. (2600) DROP
Half-Life (and all subsequent mods) EH... NEVER CARED FOR IT. DROP
Halo (Xbox) KEEP
House of the Dead, The (DC) DROP... AND SHOULDN'T THIS BE HOTD 2?
Hunter (Amiga) DROP
Immortal, The (Genesis) DROP
Impossible Mission (C64) DROP
Incredible Wizard, The (Bally Astrocade) DROP
Intelligent Qube (PS1) DROP
Jet Grind Radio (DC) DROP
Jordan vs Bird (800) DROP
Journey Escape (2600) KEEP
Kaboom! (2600) KEEP
Kid Icarus (NES) DROP... EASILY ONE OF THE MOST OVERRATED GAMES EVER.
King of Fighters '98 (Neo Geo) KEEP
King's Quest (PC) KEEP
Landstalker (Genesis) KEEP
LeChuck's Revenge: Monkey Island 2 (DOS) DROP
Legend of Zelda, The (NES) KEEP
Legend of Zelda, The: Link to the Past (SNES) KEEP
Legend of Zelda, The: Ocarina of Time (N64) DROP
Legend of Zelda: Oracle Series (Game Boy Color) KEEP
Lemmings (Amiga, others) DROP
Little Computer People (C64) DROP
Little Ninja Brothers (NES) KEEP... EXTREMELY FUCKED UP GAME
Lode Runner (C64, Apple II, others) DROP
Lords of Thunder (Duo) KEEP
Lunar: Silver Star Story (Sega CD) KEEP
M.U.L.E (C64) KEEP
Madden 2003 (PS2/GCN/Xbox) KEEP
Mario Kart 64 (N64) DROP... HASN'T AGED WELL AT ALL
Mario Kart: Super Circuit (GBA) EH... DROP
Mario Party (N64) DROP... HASN'T AGED WELL AT ALL. SOME GAMES CAUSE HOLES IN YOUR FLESH.
Mario Party 4 (Gamecube) KEEP
Mars Matrix (DC) KEEP... VASTLY UNDERRATED TITLE
Mechwarrior (PC) KEEP
Mega Man 2 (NES) KEEP
Metal Gear Solid (PSX) KEEP... ADD METAL GEAR SOLID FOR THE GBC TOO. EXCELLENT GAME
Metal Slug (Neo-Geo) KEEP
Metal Slug 3 (Neo-Geo) KEEP
Metal Slug X (Neo-Geo) KEEP
Metroid (NES) EVERYONE ELSE WOULD SAY KEEP, I SAY IT SUCKED SINCE IT CAME ALONG. DROP
Metroid Prime (GC) KEEP
Microsurgeon (Intellivision)... BIZARE GAME... CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S ON HERE, BUT KEEP
Mike Tyson's Punch Out (NES) KEEP
Military Madness (TG-16) KEEP
Miner 2049'er (800) DROP
Mr. Driller (DC) DROP
Mr. Gimmick! (NES) WHAT THE FUCK?
Ms Pac-Man (7800) SOME VERSION OF MS. PAC MAN NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED, BUT I'M NOT SURE WHICH ONE.
NHL 94 (GEN) DROP... I LIKE THE ORIGINAL NES ICE HOCKEY BETTER
Night Stalker (Intellivision) KEEP
Night Trap (Sega CD) DROP... SERIOUSLY, WHAT? THE? FUCK?
Nights (Saturn) KEEP
NightWarriors: Darkstalkers' Revenge (Saturn) DROP
Ninja Gaiden 2 (NES) DROP... PUT IN NINJA GAIDEN 1 INSTEAD
Out of This World (PC / 3DO) DROP
Pang/Buster Bros. (PSX) DROP
Panzer Dragoon Saga (Saturn) KEEP
Paradroid (C64) DROP
Parasol Stars (TG-16) KEEP
Perfect Dark (N64) KEEP
Phantasy Star IV (Genesis) DROP...
Phantasy Star Online (Dreamcast) KEEP
Pilotwings (SNES) DROP
Pilotwings 64 (N64) DROP... LIKE EVERY OTHER 3-D N64 GAME, IT HASN'T AGED WELL. COMPAIRED TO MODERN GAMES, IT FEELS LIKE IT RUNS AT 2 FRAMES A SECOND
Pinball Dreams (Amiga) DROP
Pirates! (C64) KEEP
Pitfall II (5200) KEEP
Planetfall (Apple II, PC, others) DROP
Point Blank seires (PSX) KEEP
Pokemon Puzzle League (Nintendo 64) KEEP
Pole Position (2600) DROP
Pole Position II (7800) DROP
Populous (PC) KEEP
Prince of Persia (Apple II, Amiga, others) DROP
Qix (5200) KEEP... ADD NES VERSION
Radiant Silvergun (Saturn, Import) KEEP
Raiden (Jaguar) DROP
Rainbow Islands (NES/PSX) DROP
RC Pro-Am (NES) DROP
Return Fire (3DO/PSX) DROP
Re-Volt (N64/PC/PSX/DC) DROP
Rez (PS2) DROP
River City Ransom (NES) DROP
River Raid (2600) DROP
Robotron: 2084 (7800) KEEP
Rush:2049 (N64) DROP... REPLACE WITH DC VERSION
Rygar (NES) KEEP
Samurai Shodown 2 (Neo Geo) KEEP
Saturn Bomberman (Saturn) KEEP
Scorched Earth (PC) DROP
Secret of Mana (SNES) KEEP
Secret of Monkey Island, The (PC) DROP
Sega Rally 2 (Dreamcast) DROP
Sega Rally Championship (Saturn) DROP
Sentinel, The (C64) KEEP
Shadowgate (NES) DROP
Shadowrun (SNES) DROP
Shenmue (Dreamcast) OH FUCK YEAH DROP
Shining Force (Genesis) DROP... SHINNING FORCE 3 WAS BETTER, IF INCOMPLETE
Shining Force CD (Sega CD) DROP
Sim City 2000 (PC) DROP
Skaterock (C64) DROP
Skool Daze (C64) DROP
Slime World (Lynx) DROP
Solstice (NES) DROP
Sonic & Knuckles (Genesis) DROP
Sonic CD (Sega CD) KEEP
Sonic the Hedgehog (Genesis) DROP
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (Genesis) DROP
Soul Calibur(DC) KEEP
Space Channel 5 (Dreamcast) DROP... A 30 MINUTE GLORIFIED MUSIC VIDEO ISN'T A GOOD GAME
Space Invaders (2600) KEEP
Space Quest IV (DOS) DROP
Space Taxi (C64) DROP
Star Control 2 (PC / 3DO) DROP
Star Fleet I (Atari 8-bit, also available for PC) DROP
Star Raiders (Atari 8-bit) DROP
Star Tropics (NES) KEEP OR I TRACK YOU DOWN AND TAR & FEATHER YOU
Starflight (Genesis/Amiga) DROP
StarFox 64 (N64) KEEP
Street Fighter Alpha 2 (PSX) DROP... REPLACE WITH ONE OF THE DC VERSIONS OF STREET FIGHTER
Street Fighter II (SNES) DROP... STREET FIGHTER 2 TURBO IS GOOD ENOUGH
Street Fighter II Turbo (SNES/3DO) KEEP
Streets of Rage (Genesis) KEEP
Suikoden II (PSX) DROP
Super Bomberman 2 (SNES) KEEP
Super Castlevania IV (SNES) KEEP
Super Mario All-Stars (SNES) KEEP
Super Mario Bros. (NES) DROP... MARIO ALL-STARS IS GOOD ENOUGH
Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) DROP... SEE ABOVE
Super Mario Kart (SNES) KEEP
Super Mario Sunshine (Gamecube) KEEP
Super Mario World (SNES) KEEP
Super Mario World 64 (N64) DROP... HASN'T AGED WELL. MARIO SUNSHINE IS BETTER
Super Metroid (SNES) KEEP
Super Monkey Ball 2 (Gamecube) DROP... SUPER MONKEY BALL GAMES ARE ONLY GOOD IN SMALL DOSES
Super Punch-Out!! (SNES) DROP... TOO EASY
Super Smash Bros. Melee (GCN) KEEP
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (SNES) DROP... STREET FIGHTER 2 TURBO IS BETTER
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV (SNES) DROP
Tempest 2000 (Jaguar) KEEP
Test Drive II: the duel (C64, Amiga, others) DROP
Tetris (Game Boy) DROP... TETRIS DX IS BETTER
Tetris Attack (SNES) DROP... POKEMON PUZZLE LEAGUE ON THE N64 IS FAR SUPERIOR DUE TO LACK OF SLOWDOWN
Tetris DX (GBC) KEEP... BEST VERSION OF TETRIS EVER MADE
Time Gal (Sega CD) DROP
Times of Lore (C64, Amiga) DROP
Toe Jam & Earl (Genesis) DROP
Tony Hawk Pro Skater (series) KEEP
Top Gear 3000 (SNES) DROP
Top Gear Rally (N64) DROP
Turmoil (2600) DROP
Twisted Metal 2 (PSX) DROP
Ultima IV (Apple II/C64/PC) DROP
Ultima Online (PC) DROP
Ultimate Wizard (C64) DROP
UN Squadron (SNES) DROP... DULL GAME, CAN'T BELIEVE IT WAS MENTIONED
Unreal (Xbox) DROP
Unreal Tournament (PC) DROP
Utopia (Intellivision) KEEP
Valkyrie Profile (PSX) DROP
Venture (ColecoVision) KEEP
Vib Ribbon (PSX) DROP
Virtua Fighter (series) DROP
Warcraft 2 (PC) DROP
Warlords (2600) EH... DROP. IT'S REALLY ONLY GOOD ON THE ARCADE.
Wasteland (C64) DROP
Wipeout (PSX) DROP
Wipeout XL (PSX) DROP
Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord - Apple II DROP
Wizball (C64) DROP
Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (SMS) KEEP
Xenogears (PSX) DROP
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter / Balance of Power (PC) DROP
Yar's Revenge (2600) DROP
Yoshi's Island (SNES) KEEP
Ys Book 1 and 2 (TG-CD) DROP
Zillion (SMS) DROP

Couple good games that didn't make the list: Nutopia for the TG16, Kirby's Dream Course for the SNES, Roller Coaster Tycoon for the PC, Super Mario RPG for the SNES, and Paper Mario for the N64.

[Charlie]

To clarify a few things, I think the list should be about the top 100 games, as in the best made and most fun. That's why Pokemon Puzzle League should be on the list instead of Tetris Attack. Tetris Attack was good for it's time, but when things start to go wild, slow down kicks and it deadins the pace. Pokemon Puzzle doesn't have that slowdown (or not as bad at least). If you think it should be killed simply because it has 'pokemon' in the title, you're not a true gamer IMO.

That's pretty much my thoughts on every game that has multiple entrees in it's series. The superior game should stay. Dr. Mario for the NES was ok... Dr. Mario 64 on the N64 is far superior. 90% of SF fans agree that Street Fighter 2 Turbo is better then any version of Super Street Fighter. When the time comes to make cuts, keep the best verison of each game and put aside your biases.

Oh well, at least most people haven't said Star Tropics should be cut.

[anagrama]

Horses for courses, I suppose.

[digitalpress]

If I can give a suggestion if I may, Why not ask for everyones top 100 and compile a list of who has what and then determine each games rank based on how many times they have been voted upon? Instead of asking for which games people would axe. Give a time period for people to have there votes in by and then post the results with a tally of how many votes each game received? Including the ones that do not make the top 100, and how many votes they each received?


Just a suggestion. To make the process easier.

Dig Dug

That is a damn fine idea. I second this.

We tried that already!

Captain Yashiro was compiling lists for a MONTH but we couldn't get enough people to get involved. Not everyone has the time - or knowledge - to compile their own top 100 list.

This may take some time and it may be painful, but it will be worth it. We'll have a great list when we're done, and EVERYONE will get to particpate.

[digdug]

Was unaware of the previous list, I apologize. I am compiling my list of my favorite 100 now, will have it by Sunday night. I have to think hard not to let a game I loved be forgotten.


Again I apologize if I ruffled any feathers.


Dig Dug

[IntvGene]

If anyone wants to see what kind of list pure voting will give you:

http://uvl.arteh.com/voteresults.asp

As I write, Rallisport Challenge for Xbox was #1.

People are already trying to axe some real classics. Grim Fandago, Paradroid, Adventure, Impossible Mission, etc. should ALL be there. I think that a game needs to be pretty unique to be on this list. It shouldn't be a list of every Super Mario clone and SNES RPG out there. Unless they did something change the RPG genre, it probably shouldn't be there. But, Adventure is pretty damn close to being the father of modern action / adventure games.

Taking it to movies, the AFI produced a list of top 100, Citizen Kane was on that list. It was done by competent reviewers. Now, every year or so, they ask the public what is the best movie.. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, etc. I think we should be trying to make a list like AFI, not like IMDB (http://us.imdb.com/top_250_films)

[Griking]

If I can give a suggestion if I may, Why not ask for everyones top 100 and compile a list of who has what and then determine each games rank based on how many times they have been voted upon? Instead of asking for which games people would axe. Give a time period for people to have there votes in by and then post the results with a tally of how many votes each game received? Including the ones that do not make the top 100, and how many votes they each received?

Great idea but I think it would take until 2005 to document so many top 100 lists.

[bargora]

Add: Food Fight (Atari 7800)

[digitalpress]

Have you folks read the RED area in the initial post?

What do you think? I think if a game gets five "drop its" from this forum we should remove it from the list. We have a lot of games to drop!

[Arcade Antics]

Have you folks read the RED area in the initial post?

What do you think? I think if a game gets five "drop its" from this forum we should remove it from the list. We have a lot of games to drop!

You've got my vote. Might as well try it unless it becomes ineffective.

[Nature Boy]

I've been away so I'm going to post my top 10 first anyway:

LOZ: LTTP, Tetris, Civ, M.U.L.E., LOZ: OOT, Halo, River Raid, Ms. Pac-Man, Ico, GTA 3

Now that I've got that out of the way...

PRO PC Inclusion
I know people are against including PC games, and I'm not a PC gamer by any means, but I'd be very upset if we left them off. The Civilization games get as much or more replaying time than anything else on my top 10 list - so leaving them off makes no sense IMO. I'm sure others feel as passionately about other PC games.

The Problem With Series
I think, in order to avoid being overrun with games all sharing the same title (Final Fantasy, Castlevania, Legend of Zelda, Civilization, etc.) we should combine games where possible. I know this will tick off some people, but it's doable. If a game stands out on it's own, list it (like Grand Theft Auto 3 say, since I don't believe the previous 2 GTA games deserve to be top 100 material). If you think Final Fantasy VI and VII are the bomb but want to include the rest in a third group that would work too. And I'd also think that maybe splitting games into 2D vs 3D might work (for instance I think the 2D Sonic games are much better than the 3D Sonic games, so I could see listing them apart to let 2D Sonic Shine)

Versions
Once we've got our top 100 (or maybe a bit sooner) I think we should debate versioning. I have no problems listing the 2600 along with the 7800 with regards to Ms. Pac-Man, but I do have a problem listing Civilization under anything but the PC. They're poor ports at best and on their own aren't top 100 material.

I think I've babbled enough (for now).

[Scoots]

Yeah, five votes off sounds good. With that in mind, I'd like to nominate the following games for removal from the list:

*Rygar
*Ninja Gaiden

And suggest adding:

* Marble Madness
*Gauntlet
*A Boy and His Blob.

[Arcade Antics]

And suggest adding:

* Marble Madness
*Gauntlet
*A Boy and His Blob.

For which system? :)


I propose that this list begin with "home games". So this can include computer games, handheld games, and console games. Not arcade games. That's for another list on another day.

[IntvGene]

Let's give it a shot. Sorry about missing the first page but it's tough to tell when you've updated it. I finally noticed KOF '98 on the list and it's good to see that someone got something from Neo-Geo in there.

Here are my votes AGAINST:

Advance Wars (GBA)
Dr. Mario (NES)
Galactic Attack (Saturn)
Metroid Prime (GC)
Ninja Gaiden II (NES)
Revolt (DC/PS2)
Rush: 2049 (DC / N64)
Shadowgate (NES)
Shadowrun (SNES)
Time Gal (Sega CD)
Top Gear Rally (N64)
Valkyrie Profile (PSX)
Xenogears (PSX)
Yoshi's Island (SNES)

[Drexel923]

If we're doing five vote offs at a time, here's mine:
Goonies 2 (nes)
Drive (GBC)
Jordan vs Bird (800)
Mario Party 4 (GCN)
Tetris DX (GBC)

[ManekiNeko]

(stealthfully sneaks past Charlie and puts Nightwarriors back on the top 100 list)

JR

[Scoots]

* Marble Madness
*Gauntlet
*A Boy and His Blob.


For which system? 2003_smile.gif

digitalpress wrote:
I propose that this list begin with "home games". So this can include computer games, handheld games, and console games. Not arcade games. That's for another list on another day.

Marble Madness (NES/Genesis)
Gauntlet (NES)
A Boy and His Blob (NES)

Better?

[TheRedEye]

TheRedEye wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with these games, followed by an explanation of why 100 games are better than them. I know it's "nothing personal," but not including Grim Fandango, what I consider the Citizen Kane of video games, on a TOP ONE HUNDRED list makes absolutely no sense to me. The artistry of that game has yet to be even remotely touched...everything about it was a labor of love done beautifully.


I'll admit, I've never played Grim Fandango blah blah blah I said other things too

Say no more, I'm just using you as an example. People, PLEASE do not vote to axe games you haven't played. With the exception of Advance Wars, which I've only SEEN played, I've personally sat down with every game on my axe list. If you're voting to nix a game based purely on what goddam hardware it's running on, your opinions shouldn't be valid at all.

Nothing personal.

[Keir]

Jumpman (C64)
Thank you!!!! This game simply needs to be on the top 100 list.

Here is a list of games I think should be removed. I see a lot more that I’m shocked would be on a top 100 list, but have not played them so I will withhold any comments.

Alternate Reality: The Dungeon (C64): OK, I actually enjoyed this game, but it doesn’t have anything that makes you want to keep playing.
Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit/NES): Maybe I just never “got” this game, but honestly I’d rather play chess.
Beamrider (INTV/5200): Uh, no reason really. Just not into it.
Combat (2600): Yeah, it’s Combat and it’s fun but as far as retro multiplayer competitive action goes you can’t beat Warlords and that’s already on the list.
Contra (NES): I agree with whoever said that there should only be one Contra on this list (Contra III)
Crystal Castles (2600): Sure the arcade game is great, and this is an impressive conversion of it for the Atari, but I don’t think that qualifies it for greatness.
Diablo: I just don’t like this game and I’ll be damned if I’ll let 2 versions of it on the top 10 list!
Doom (PC): ditto
Dr. Mario (NES): Blah. There are much better puzzle games out there.
Dragster (2600): Maybe if I figured out how to actually play, I would like it, but even then a game lasts less than 10 seconds.
Goonies II, The (NES): People like this game?
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2): While this may be the most popular game right now, it's really not a good game.
H.E.R.O. (2600): This always causes a debate but I really think this should be replaced with one of the superior versions (5200, C64, ColecoVision)
Journey Escape (2600): I’m sorry scooter. I love this game too but I really can’t justify putting it on a top 100 list.
Metroid (NES): I have never understood the appeal of this game. To me, it’s just another platformer (and there are too many platformers on this list already).
Pole Position (2600): First, there is no reason for this when Pole Position II is on the list. Second, I would much rather see Epyx’ Pitstop on here.
River Raid (2600): You know what? This game just isn’t that good.
Sonic the Hedgehog (Genesis): Too many Sonic games on this list! The first one is great, but was improved on in Sonic 3.
Space Invaders (2600): While there has to be some form of Space Invaders on this list is this really the best? I prefer TI Invaders myself.
Super Mario Bros. (NES): See Sonic the Hedgehog.
Turmoil (2600): Really? Turmoil? I don’t see it.
Wipeout (PSX): I thought this was the best racing game ever when it came out. I guess it didn’t age well. Maybe Wipeout XL (also on this list) is better?
Yoshi's Island (SNES) I hate this game! “Waah! Waah!” Shut up you stupid kid!

I think that’s enough for now. I’ll submit some games I’d like to see added later.

I like the 5 strikes you’re out idea, though I think that there should be a “last call” for people to defend a game before it gets the final axe. Also, I see a problem where someone might nominate a game that no one else has played and it stays to the end because no one will speak out against it.

[Kid Fenris]

Say no more, I'm just using you as an example. People, PLEASE do not vote to axe games you haven't played. With the exception of Advance Wars, which I've only SEEN played, I've personally sat down with every game on my axe list. If you're voting to nix a game based purely on what goddam hardware it's running on, your opinions shouldn't be valid at all.

Nothing personal.

While this is a fine sentiment, it creates the problem of obscure games having an advantage over the better-known games on the list. If we're only allowed to vote against games that we've played, then titles that few people have ever touched will be more likely to remain on the list by default, while games that are perhaps more deserving of inclusion will be removed only because they're more popular and thus, more inclined to generate dislike.

I'd prefer for people to observe the don't-knock-it-til-you-play-it rule, since it favors my precious Valkyrie Profile, but let's face it: it's not going to happen.

And if we start assuming someone's opinion to be more valid than someone else's, we're not going to get anywhere. I think DP's idea of taking votes, with each poster's say being equally important, is a suitable method.

Of course, it might go faster if someone (DP, perhaps) just trimmed the list down to 100 games and left us to argue over what should go back in. That's the way we usually handle these lists, and it seems to work pretty well.

[bargora]

Maybe people should indicate which games they HAVEN'T played (have fun tabulating, guys), so that their invalid opinions can be rightfully disregarded.

Plus, this would reveal the fact that the only reason Star Fleet I is still on the list is that nobody but me has ever savored the Klingon, er, Krellan-crushing space combat of SF I.

I wish I could put up a top 100 list, but up until the last year or so, I have tended to play fewer games more intensely. If I listed every console and PC game I ever played enough to form a valid opinion about, I'd probably have more than 100, but I suspect that in listing my favorite 100 I'd be reaching further down into the barrel than a "top 100" list deserves.

Also, The Red Eye is a fool for dissing Advance Wars based on watching someone else playing it. No offense intended, of course. :-D Watching someone else playing it must be like watching a demo for "Microsoft Excel Xtreme Office Sheetspreading". Which in its own way is an excellent game fully deserving of a spot on the top 100 list.

Finally, I'm not sure I can agree with that list that had Rallisport Challenge as the Best Game Evar.

[Ascending Wordsmith]

Drop Sonic 3. I can't stand games that are cut short to meet release dates. There are many stages missing. Flying battery, Sandopolis, Mushroom Valley, and other stages are just nonexistent. When compared to Sonic 2, Sonic 3 looks like a sun-beaten paper mache' replica. Not a good game IMO.

Drop Goonies II. I don't know about other people, but that game did nothing for me. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to the joy they found in this game.

Drop Super Mario World 64. Where did all the fun go?

[Gunstarhero]

If I can give a suggestion if I may, Why not ask for everyones top 100 and compile a list of who has what and then determine each games rank based on how many times they have been voted upon? Instead of asking for which games people would axe. Give a time period for people to have there votes in by and then post the results with a tally of how many votes each game received? Including the ones that do not make the top 100, and how many votes they each received?


Just a suggestion. To make the process easier.

Dig Dug

That is a damn fine idea. I second this.

We tried that already!

Captain Yashiro was compiling lists for a MONTH but we couldn't get enough people to get involved. Not everyone has the time - or knowledge - to compile their own top 100 list.

This may take some time and it may be painful, but it will be worth it. We'll have a great list when we're done, and EVERYONE will get to particpate.

Fair enough DP, I didn't realize this was tried before.

[Gunstarhero]

TheRedEye wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with these games, followed by an explanation of why 100 games are better than them. I know it's "nothing personal," but not including Grim Fandango, what I consider the Citizen Kane of video games, on a TOP ONE HUNDRED list makes absolutely no sense to me. The artistry of that game has yet to be even remotely touched...everything about it was a labor of love done beautifully.


I'll admit, I've never played Grim Fandango blah blah blah I said other things too

Say no more, I'm just using you as an example. People, PLEASE do not vote to axe games you haven't played. With the exception of Advance Wars, which I've only SEEN played, I've personally sat down with every game on my axe list. If you're voting to nix a game based purely on what goddam hardware it's running on, your opinions shouldn't be valid at all.

Nothing personal.

Man, why do you have to be like this? So freaking petty. I'll vote a game off based on hardware all I goddamn want to. If I'm voting on the top 100 Songs of all time, I'll purposely vote off all RAP songs if I want. You really have to be insultive about this? I mean what does it accomplish. People can use any argument they want to vote games off this list, it doesn't mean it will happen. So, please, grow up and get a grip BrownEye.

[digitalpress]

Let's give it a shot. Sorry about missing the first page but it's tough to tell when you've updated it. I finally noticed KOF '98 on the list and it's good to see that someone got something from Neo-Geo in there.

Here are my votes:


Erm... are these votes FOR the list or votes AGAINST?

[digitalpress]

If we're doing five vote offs at a time, here's mine:
Goonies 2 (nes)
Drive (GBC)
Jordan vs Bird (800)
Mario Party 4 (GCN)
Tetris DX (GBC)

I've entered these for you, but just so it's clear - you're not voting OFF, you're voting against. If you see a game that has NO strikes against it and you don't think it belongs on the top 100, you can still vote AGAINST.

That is all.

[Ascending Wordsmith]

I'll vote a game off based on hardware all I goddamn want to.

I'm just curious as to why you would do that. What does the hardware have to do with the game's ability to be enjoyable? I'd play Oregon Trail on the Apple II before I'd lift the joystick to play Super Mario 64 on the N64. The hardware has never mattered to me when playing a game. If it's good, fine. If it sucks, I'll smash it with an aluminum baseball bat.

Perhaps you could shed some light as to why hardware would really matter.

[digitalpress]

Of course, it might go faster if someone (DP, perhaps) just trimmed the list down to 100 games and left us to argue over what should go back in. That's the way we usually handle these lists, and it seems to work pretty well.

Patience, my son!

To do this right we should be methodical about it. Simple, but methodical. I wanted every game to get equal treatment, and as you can see, quite a few games that were someone's favorite have already been smashed off of the list (bye bye Night Trap, Banjo Kazooie, and others). We'll get to the point where there 100 that we can argue over - I have no doubt that this highly critical community will be smashing games off of that list for a few more days to come.

[Gunstarhero]

I'll vote a game off based on hardware all I goddamn want to.

I'm just curious as to why you would do that. What does the hardware have to do with the game's ability to be enjoyable? I'd play Oregon Trail on the Apple II before I'd lift the joystick to play Super Mario 64 on the N64. The hardware has never mattered to me when playing a game. If it's good, fine. If it sucks, I'll smash it with an aluminum baseball bat.

Perhaps you could shed some light as to why hardware would really matter.

I don't hate PC games by any means. I play PC games, and I didn't vote off all PC games listed. But, from my experience, when I think of PC games, I have to consider PROBLEMS. I have some really fun PC games, but sometimes it doesn't seem worth it, and I definetely prefer the bug free environment of console games, and I think this makes console games funner in the end. I believe console games are just better, thats my belief from experience. Do I want to pick up my controller and play a game, or spend time installing, configuring, and patching my PC game? For me the answer is clear, but some people apparently have a problem with my personal beliefs. Like I'm racist against pc games or something. I should be burned at the stake for liking console games better I guess. If my views aren't welcome, then please by all means, disregard my posts regarding this topic, as apparently after 20 years of playing games, I don't deserve an opinion here.

[digitalpress]

I should be burned at the stake for liking console games better I guess. If my views aren't welcome, then please by all means, disregard my posts regarding this topic, as apparently after 20 years of playing games, I don't deserve an opinion here.

Aww, come on now. Surely you've become acquainted with the sledgehammer debating style of some of our forum members! Don't take it personally, you have a legitimate point. And I think for every person who thinks your way there's someone who's on the complete opposite side. That's what makes these lists balance in the end. That's what makes arguing over these lists fun.

So. Have fun!

[bargora]

I'd play Oregon Trail on the Apple II before I'd lift the joystick to play Super Mario 64 on the N64.
\^_^/

Please register my votes AGAINST:

Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
Demon Attack (2600)
Dreadnought Factor (Int/5200)

[ubersaurus]

Ugh, you replaced Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo with just Super. Super sucked. It sucked and sucked HARD. Sure, it had 4 new characters. But they all sucked in the game. Everyone sucked in the game except for Sagat. Sagat dominated everyone. Plus they took away the speed boost from the prior edition. There's a reason that street fighter players will play World Warriors over Super SF2...even WW is a better game.

[digitalpress]

Please register my votes AGAINST:

Dreadnought Factor (Int/5200)

Now I know how ScooterB must have felt watching his favorite game (Journey Escape) get stricken from the list. In my mind, Dreadnaught Factor is Activision's secret best game ever. I'll hold out hope that it makes the list though I know it's an underdog. I'd urge anyone who hasn't played it it give it a ride so you can defend the game when I need you later :)

[digitalpress]

Ugh, you replaced Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo with just Super. Super sucked. It sucked and sucked HARD. Sure, it had 4 new characters. But they all sucked in the game. Everyone sucked in the game except for Sagat. Sagat dominated everyone. Plus they took away the speed boost from the prior edition. There's a reason that street fighter players will play World Warriors over Super SF2...even WW is a better game.

Do you mean Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo for 3DO? Isn't that the only system it was released on? I'm getting mixed signals about which game to list here.

[Ascending Wordsmith]

Joe, is it too late to add Oregon Trail for the Apple II to the list?

There was nothing like walking through the woods, shooting all kinds of animals that would later become endangered. :snipersmile:

If you can add it, thanks. If not, I'm just glad to give it a mention.

[WiseSalesman]

In it's defense, Mario 64 is still about the most fun I can remember having with a video game. On the other hand, I found Oregon Trail to be the worst idea for entertainment anyone ever had. Simply terrible.

Anyway, please register votes against the following games for me:

Ys Book 1 and 2 (TG-CD) - mediocre
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (Genesis) - worst of the series on the genesis
Perfect Dark (N64) - over-hyped
Mario Party (N64) - thought it was terrible
Boy and His Blob, A (NES) - over-hyped
Conker's Bad Fur Day (N64) - I like this game, but it doesn't belong in the top 100
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse (NES) - ugh
Asheron's Call (PC) - tried it, didn't like it

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread since day one, but if they haven't already been on there, I'd vote to add:

DDR MAX (PS2) - I've logged more hours on this game than any other one I can think of.

Final Fantasy Tactics (PS) - This game became an obsession. Enough said.

....and i'm sure there's more, but this task i extremely daunting.

[bargora]

Please register my votes AGAINST:

Dreadnought Factor (Int/5200)

Now I know how ScooterB must have felt watching his favorite game (Journey Escape) get stricken from the list. In my mind, Dreadnaught Factor is Activision's secret best game ever. I'll hold out hope that it makes the list though I know it's an underdog. I'd urge anyone who hasn't played it it give it a ride so you can defend the game when I need you later :)
All right, I'll go home and give it another try. I only played that one for a half-hour or so. Maybe it'll grab me more on the second pass and I'll realize HOW WRONG I WAS. After all, it does involve shootin' the hell out of a dreadnought (which in theory makes for a guaranteed excellent game).

[Arcade Antics]

*gets in line to defend Dreadnaught Factor*

:)

Fun game, always liked it.

@Bargora: make sure you blow up some of those Dreadnaught engines first to slow 'em down a bit. Then blow up everything else. Mwahahahah!

[Nature Boy]

I don't hate PC games by any means. I play PC games, and I didn't vote off all PC games listed. But, from my experience, when I think of PC games, I have to consider PROBLEMS. I have some really fun PC games, but sometimes it doesn't seem worth it, and I definetely prefer the bug free environment of console games, and I think this makes console games funner in the end. I believe console games are just better, thats my belief from experience. Do I want to pick up my controller and play a game, or spend time installing, configuring, and patching my PC game? For me the answer is clear, but some people apparently have a problem with my personal beliefs.

I have no problems with you voting against a specific PC title because of problems you had with it. I'd do the same if I actually played one of the games listed and found similar problems to spoil my enjoyment of it. But I have a problem if you poo-poo *all* PC games because *some* (or even *most*) of them require constant patches.

I'd like to vote against Jet Grind Radio (or Jet Set Radio, or whatever you want to call it). I enjoyed it to a point but found the levels where I had to chase guys around to get their backs frustrating and definitely don't consider it top 100 material.

[IntvGene]

...sigh...

(begins defense of both JSR and Dreadnaught Factor)
Jet Grind Radio deserves to be there for starting the Cel Shading revolution alone... add an awesome soundtrack, and wicked style to its fun gameplay and I think it needs to be considered.

Dreadnaught Factor is great too. The Intellivision is much worse, due to control problems and that horizontal approach.. try the 5200. Don't just play the first levels, get to the harder, more difficult dreadnaughts and you'll see what we love. Shots flying everywhere, it's pure madness.. and way ahead of its time.

But, everyone is allowed thier votes.

And I think that debate is good. I don't think anyone's trying to make personal attacks here, this is a really tough thing to do well. IGN is trying it, with debatable success. I hope we can do better... A LOT better.

[digitalpress]

Dreadnaught Factor is great too. The Intellivision is much worse, due to control problems and that horizontal approach.. try the 5200

Ah, y'see? I like the Intellivision version a lot more! I didn't have any "control problems", but maybe that's because I am the MASTA with the disc controller. Dude, one sound that STILL freaks me out is the sound of the GIANT cannon firing on a Dreadnaught. That blast moves so fast that you have to hope you're not in line with it when it goes off.

[TheRedEye]

*sigh* I wasn't attacking you at all. If I hadn't used the word "goddam," you wouldn't have given it a second thought. I sure do attract arguments around here, don't I?

Anyhow. I had this long, drawn-out post typed up, but after hitting preview I read the tons of replies that have come since, and what I had seemed kind of obsolete. You made the racism connection yourself, I didn't have to!

Joe's pretty much right on. When I debate, I DEBATE. I'll get in heated arguments if I have to, and I will sound insulting, going as low as to, say, compare you to a racist. That's just me, I don't pussyfoot around, it really is nothing personal. So relax...at least, until something has to be debated!

Anywho. Joe, if others stick up for a game, does the minus get taken away? If so, I'd like to take away my vote against Mr. Gimmick. I mean, it was my own choice, I just felt selfish having it on there. But if portnoyd stuck up for it, it has a chance!

[Kid Fenris]

Ugh, you replaced Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo with just Super. Super sucked. It sucked and sucked HARD. Sure, it had 4 new characters. But they all sucked in the game. Everyone sucked in the game except for Sagat. Sagat dominated everyone. Plus they took away the speed boost from the prior edition. There's a reason that street fighter players will play World Warriors over Super SF2...even WW is a better game.

Do you mean Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo for 3DO? Isn't that the only system it was released on? I'm getting mixed signals about which game to list here.

I think that Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was released on the PSX and Saturn as part of the Street Fighter Collection. I could be wrong, though.

I also vote for putting Final Fantasy Tactics on the list, if we can. It's a great strategy game.

And I like Keir's idea of giving people one last chance to defend a game after it leaves the list. If you can put forth a good argument for a title and get some other posters to rally behind it, we could let the game stay. Someone should take a stand for Super Mario 64, at least.

[Nature Boy]

Jet Grind Radio deserves to be there for starting the Cel Shading revolution alone... add an awesome soundtrack, and wicked style to its fun gameplay and I think it needs to be considered.

As you said, debate is good. I'd just like to further add that I don't think graphics should be a consideration necessarily. "Starting the Cel Shading Revolution" might make it an 'important' game, but that doesn't make it a good one. IMO.

[digitalpress]

I think that Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was released on the PSX and Saturn as part of the Street Fighter Collection. I could be wrong, though.

That's fine but we're not including compilations.


I also vote for putting Final Fantasy Tactics on the list, if we can. It's a great strategy game.

Done.


And I like Keir's idea of giving people one last chance to defend a game after it leaves the list. If you can put forth a good argument for a title and get some other posters to rally behind it, we could let the game stay. Someone should take a stand for Super Mario 64, at least.

I like the idea, sorta. What I think we'll do is get this beast down to 100. THEN you can defend your game and get it back on the list. If we get into too many debates about specific games in this one thread it will get hopelessly confusing. Sound fair?

[Charlie]

I really don't like the five-strikes thing... it just leaves everything open to tampering.

[digitalpress]

I really don't like the five-strikes thing... it just leaves everything open to tampering.

OK, alternate suggestion? One that won't leave everything open to tampering?

[Kid Fenris]

I think that Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was released on the PSX and Saturn as part of the Street Fighter Collection. I could be wrong, though.

That's fine but we're not including compilations.

In that case, R-Type (PSX) should be changed to, I don't know, the Turbografx-16 version, since it's only available on the PSX as part of R-Types.


I like the idea, sorta. What I think we'll do is get this beast down to 100. THEN you can defend your game and get it back on the list. If we get into too many debates about specific games in this one thread it will get hopelessly confusing. Sound fair?

Yup. I wish more people would vote, though. Where's butta, Queen, and PDF?

[Eternal Champion]

I say remove Metroid 1. I'm sorry, but for as innovative as it was for the time, it has not aged well, and cannot stand up to the other games in the series, or even similar contemporaries (like zillion). The whole thing where you started with only 30 points of health every time you put in a password was crummy, and quite frankly, Super Metroid did everything it did, and did it better.

Same story with Super Mario World. To me, it was just a weaker version of Mario 3. Sure, it looked prettier, but it played so similar, and yet had alot of the neat features of 3 gone.

And why is mario all stars on there? It's just a compilation. And if we already have most of the games in its lineup on the list, why bother?

BOO-ERNS!! Oh well, to each their own. I want to add a "+" for Metroid, I still love it, and if Zelda is on there, Metroid should be. I think only Zelda 1 & 3 and Metroid 1 & 3 of those series should be there.

Oooooh--I think "All-Stars" is more than just a comp--improved, 16-bit graphics and sound!! I think it's the definitive version of those games; I don't even have the 8-bit versions. I nominate SMB All-Stars instead of the separate games.

I'd like to nominate R-Type III for SNES--I think it's one of the best 2-D shooters ever, the best on SNES, and the best R-Type. Flame away.

If we're still on Street Fighter, SFII Turbo on SNES is all that needs to be there.

[Nature Boy]

I really don't like the five-strikes thing... it just leaves everything open to tampering.

OK, alternate suggestion? One that won't leave everything open to tampering?

Maybe you could limit the number of strikes each person could dole out. Though that might overly complicate the process. But that way somebody can't go about trampling games they don't like ad naseum. As much as I can't believe people are big enough losers to tamper with somthing like this I figure Charlie is probably right in that it'll happen.

[Charlie]

Well, the only fair way I can think of is to wait a while and then see what games have the most requests to drop. The 'five strikes' thing is silly because everyone here has different tastes. Suppose there are five people here who are dead set against... oh... Super Metroid. Now, despite the fact that they would be in a minority, that game would get dropped because of them? Likewise, there are lots of people here who will not give 3-D games the time of day and will vomit blood if they get included.

I think the only fair thing to do is to just wait a while and see which games get the most requests to get booted. This entire thing is starting to feel rushed. I mean, this isn't an exact science. Right now, who cares if the list balloons to 500 games? Just let the list get big, then say "OK, no new entrees excepted." Then start making cuts. And everyone should make a case for a games to stay and to go. Ultimately though, this is your baby Joe. I'm just along for the ride.

[ubersaurus]

Ugh, you replaced Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo with just Super. Super sucked. It sucked and sucked HARD. Sure, it had 4 new characters. But they all sucked in the game. Everyone sucked in the game except for Sagat. Sagat dominated everyone. Plus they took away the speed boost from the prior edition. There's a reason that street fighter players will play World Warriors over Super SF2...even WW is a better game.

Do you mean Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo for 3DO? Isn't that the only system it was released on? I'm getting mixed signals about which game to list here.

Yeah thats the one ;p
It works like this....
Super Street Fighter 2=sucks
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo=very very very good.

[DDCecil]

I vote against:

Axelay (SNES) - I didn't find it better than any of the other SNES shooters I have played.
Dark Wizard (Sega CD) - It was okay, nothing special, though.
Final Fantasy VII (PSX) - No. Just no.
Grand Theft Auto III (PS2) - I like State of Emergency better.
Marble Madness (NES/GEN) - It drives me nuts.
Mario Kart 64 (N64) - I like the SNES one better.
Top Gear 3000 (SNES) - I didn't like it.

All the other games I like, or have never played.

(How DARE does someone vote against Ninja Gaiden 2, the most PERFECT game ever made.)

[Gunstarhero]

I think Galaga should be represented on this list, but theres not an arcade perfect home version, but Galaga 90'(TG-16) would probably represent the series best. The 7800 version is fun and graphically spot on, but I thought it was a little bit too easy.

Would anyone agree that Space Megaforce(SNES) was a superior shooter over Axelay(SNES)?

Also, lets make Centipede the 5200 version, because the Trackball makes this version virtually arcade perfect. The 7800 had decent graphics, but it will never match the control of 5200 Centipede, and graphics wise, the difference is negligible.

For Ms. Pac-Man, mabye we could go with the SNES or GEN versions since these versions have more stages, co-op multiplayer, and all the gameplay with terrific graphics. She definitely deserves a spot on the list, its just which version that is going to be a problem. I'd like to see Super Pac-Man(5200) on the list, but I didn't think anyone would vote for this game to stay, plus its a prototype.

Advance Wars. I love the game, but it is really just Panzer General lite, and the genre of turn based strategy would be much better represented with Panzer General II(PC, thats right PC!! X_x ). I think the easiness of Advance Wars attracts more people to it, but PGII is, simply put, just more of everything that Advance Wars has to offer. Turn Based Strategy is a dying breed, so I wouldn't be suprised to see none on this list. Advance Wars just isn't the best one, thats why I gave it the axe.

Castlevania III is getting strikes, so I'll try to defend it. When this game was on the development table, I remember people were anticipating this thing to no end because Simon's Quest was such a disappointment. I like Simon's Quest, its got a great story, but it actually in some ways, had graphical de-hancements, especially with Simon's weapons. Castlevania III, came out, scored 9's in EGM, and high scores in other mags and blew everyone away. Very nice graphical enhancements, a nice soundtrack, along with a great story, actually multiple storylines, and the spot on awesome gameplay of the original, which is what EVERYBODY wanted back in 1989. The reason there is more appreciation for Simon's Quest nowadays is due in part to Symphony of the Night, alot of people see the correlation between the two games and grew some respect for Simon's Quest. Castlevania III introduced us to Alucard, Grant Dynasty, and Sypha Belnade, all playable with their own storylines! Talk about replay value. The game wasn't easy either, as compared to Simon's Quest, which had one hard part(the kneel down thing), but Dracula is pathetically easy to defeat in Simon's Quest, I was terribly disappointed with the weak ending and easy victory over Drac. But in CIII:DC, the bosses are imaginative, tough, big, colorfull etc..I liked that CIII brought back the gameplay of the original, but retained some story structure of CII, and Konami agreed with that, since the subsequent games retained the gameplay style of Castlevania III, meaning fast paced hack and jump sidescroller. Simon's Quest was pretty slow, and even the newer Castlevania games are fast paced, even with heavy storylines.

[le geek]

This should get interesting and ugly! :)
Here are my two cents for the moment...


[Games I'm defending:]

Adventure (2600) - -
Quite ground breaking, first easter egg, still fun

Cannon Fodder (Amiga, others) - - -
Have you played it with a mouse? Lemmings and Squad combat.

Doom (PC) - - -
Still fun, quite revolutionary

Fool's Errand, The (Mac) - -
A wicked hard puzzle game that follows the Tarot. Great design.

Jet Grind Radio (DC) - -
A beautiful game, quite fun and challenging.

Lemmings (Amiga, others) - -
Still one of the BEST non dropping blocks puzzle games.

Out of This World (PC / 3DO) - -
Also Amiga, SNES, and Genesis versions. This game blew me away when I first played it. The cinematics blended with the gameplay were great...

River Raid (2600) - -
The balance of the gameplay is still amazing, but the seemingly "endless" river!

Street Fighter II Turbo (SNES/3DO) - - -
Lets keep the best one...

Super Mario World 64 (N64) - - - -
Different from the others in the series, but a brilliant 3D adventure. Totally mindblowing went it came out.

Test Drive II: the Duel (C64/Amiga/others) - -
I'll live if this one goes, but TD2 had realistic driving from the inside the car POV, on tracks that weren't loops with traffic conditions and cops. Besides the first need for speed on the 3DO, Im still waiting for a game to update this legacy.


[Games I'm voting against:]

Contra III: Alien Wars (SNES)
Keep Contra (NES)

Crystal Castles (2600) -
Great game, lousy (if ambitious port)

Doom II (PC) - -
Keep the first one

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) - - - -
Keep GTA 3

Kid Icarus (NES) - -
Not that great really

Legend of Zelda, The: Link to the Past (SNES)
I prefer the original NES game

Raiden (Jaguar) - - - -
There are better shooters

Space Quest IV (DOS) - -
Space Quest III was funnier and more enjoyable, also still had text parser.

Super Castlevania IV (SNES) - -
Keep the other versions for now

Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) -
Keep the original SMB

Super Mario World (SNES) - -
Keep the original SMB

Super Punch-Out!! (SNES) -
Keep the original Punchout it's better

Super Street Fighter II Turbo (3DO)
stick with SF2T

Wipeout (PSX) - -
keep XL

Yoshi's Island (SNES) - - -
Keep the original SMB

[Charlie]

I propose that games that are more of an 'update' rather then a true sequel be merged with all previous versions of that game.

Example: All versions of Street Fighter 2 would be merged, while all versions of Castlevania would be seperate.

This should cut quite a bit of fat out. By my counts, the following games would be merged.

Diablo and Diablo 2 (Diablo 2 was really just an update, and not a truly new experience)
Doom & Doom 2
Sega Rally 2 and Sega Rally Championship
Street Fighter Series
Super Mario 1 - 3... replace with Mario Allstars
Tetris Attack/Pokemon Puzzle
All versions of Tetris... replace with Tetris DX for the GBC
Wipeout Games

[TheRedEye]

Space Quest IV (DOS) - -
Space Quest III was funnier and more enjoyable, also still had text parser.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from more Sierra fans. The only votes we have are King's Quest and my personal vote for SQ4.

I mean, come on. Do people still regard the first King's Quest as being better than all the other Sierra games?

Here are my favorites from each series. In a personal top 100, they'd all be included:

King's Quest: I like VI the best. Easy interface, multiple endings and possibilities, colorful characters, intriguing story...very, very good game.

Space Quest: I've learned that a little gimmick that will always win my heart is the illusion of an infinite world. Space Quest IV was BIG. It technically wasn't much larger than the rest, but the illusion of time travel and a full mall to explore and several planets just won me over. Which leads me to:

Leisure Suit Larry: Part 2 was my favorite. Big, big adventure, and the one I find funniest. The repeat of the barber shops cracked me up, and so did sleeping with the maid and getting killed by her brother (the only time, incidentally, that you can get laid in the game!)

Police Quest: Going to have to go with the original. I didn't feel like a cop with the others.

And on that note, am I the only Lucasarts fan voting here? Jeepers. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Loom, Maniac Mansion, Sam & Max, etc. etc.

[digitalpress]

Maybe you could limit the number of strikes each person could dole out. Though that might overly complicate the process. But that way somebody can't go about trampling games they don't like ad naseum. As much as I can't believe people are big enough losers to tamper with somthing like this I figure Charlie is probably right in that it'll happen.

The MOST a person can "trample" is on every game, once. So that's one strike against any given game. I'm really not as intelligent as you might think. I'm missing how this can create a problem? I can always up it to 10 strikes, but then the people who think this is already too long and drawn out will argue against you.

Let's stick with this plan (unless there really is a serious flaw in it) until we get down to 100, then let's see how to go about replacing games that don't belong on the list or that have been unfairly "trampled". Fair?

[Arrrhalomynn]

I would like to 'trample' on super mario 64.
And I would love to see Baldur's gate added.

[Arcade Antics]

The 'five strikes' thing is silly because everyone here has different tastes. Suppose there are five people here who are dead set against... oh... Super Metroid. Now, despite the fact that they would be in a minority, that game would get dropped because of them? Likewise, there are lots of people here who will not give 3-D games the time of day and will vomit blood if they get included.

I see where you're coming from. But here's my two zenny on the whole thing.

The list is for Top 100 of All Time. So as a group, we have to be more objective about the list and the games. I also think that the group's different tastes should lead to a pretty well-rounded list.

e.g., I might really dig the game Super Qix on the Genesis, but at the same time, understand that it's not a Top 100 because there are lots of people who think it's mediocre at best.

Likewise, I'm generally not into RPGs or other time intensive games, BUT I see where Shenmue can fit in on the list because I know tons of people who love the game, and really, it is very well done. So while I don't play the game, I wouldn't suggest dropping it. Another example: Halo puts me to sleep. -_- But I wouldn't suggest it get dropped (if it's there) just because *I* don't care for it.

In that spirit, I don't see a problem with the five strikes rule or where our little Top 100 debate is headed. :)

[Eternal Champion]

Gunstarhero wrote:
Would anyone agree that Space Megaforce(SNES) was a superior shooter over Axelay(SNES)?

HELL YES!! Space Megaforce and R-Type III comprise the cream of the crop of SNES shooters, and I'd like to second Space Megaforce.

And I'd like to add a "+" for Kid Icarus to help offset hits against it.

[Nature Boy]

The MOST a person can "trample" is on every game, once. So that's one strike against any given game. I'm really not as intelligent as you might think. I'm missing how this can create a problem? I can always up it to 10 strikes, but then the people who think this is already too long and drawn out will argue against you.

I guess I was thinking more about those who will slam games they've never played just because they could, technically, slam all 250 choices if they wanted to. I was thinking that if we limited slams, the Xbox haters out there might avoid slamming Halo instead of games they've *actually* played and didn't like.

To be honest I don't like accepting slams that don't have a reason attached to them either, but that's another can of worms :)


Let's stick with this plan (unless there really is a serious flaw in it) until we get down to 100, then let's see how to go about replacing games that don't belong on the list or that have been unfairly "trampled". Fair?

I'm cool with that. I was just taking Charlie's suggestion and adding my Canadian nickel's worth.

[Kid Ice]

The list is coming along nicely Joe.

Count me for a strike against Perfect Dark, please.

There are strikes against SMB3? Are you crazy, dudes?

the kid

[Drexel923]

I would like to 'trample' on super mario 64.

O_O :bad-words:

I can't believe Mario 64 got tossed...that game rocks...and I think it certainly should be on list. For being one of the first fully 3D games it had great control, gameplay, and fun that took a good while to be surpassed by another like it. Plus the awe factor alone when it came out should be enough. I still remember getting it on launch and being speechless as I played. This list is an atrocity. (sp?)

oh well...such is life.

[zektor]

I would like to 'trample' on super mario 64.

O_O :bad-words:

I can't believe Mario 64 got tossed...that game rocks...and I think it certainly should be on list. For being one of the first fully 3D games it had great control, gameplay, and fun that took a good while to be surpassed by another like it. Plus the awe factor alone when it came out should be enough. I still remember getting it on launch and being speechless as I played. This list is an atrocity. (sp?)

oh well...such is life.

I second this feeling. This game was the groundbreaker for all good 3d based action/adventure games you see today. I thought (and still think) this is one incredible game, and definitely deserves to be on the list.

[Arrrhalomynn]

I was just making space to make sure Baldur's Gate would fit. Trampling some other games would be fine too :) You all may be right about Mario 64 (even though I thought it was very dull).

[Kid Ice]

Add me to the list of supporters for Super Mario 64. It's a top 25 game at the very least. I've still yet to play a game in this style as good as this one.

the kid

[digitalpress]

Now updating. I haven't thrown my strikes in there yet, but if you haven't "voted against", please do so now.

We'll get to defending the fallen titles once we get this down to 100. There are still over 240 on the list!

[NvrMore]

Ok, I'm feeling a bit dim today and I think this seems to just be a case of vote for what games you are for being in the list and what you're against that's already on, so..

FOR:

Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past (SNES)
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64/GCN)
Super Mario World (SNES)
Shadowrun (SNES)
Final Fantasy VII (PSX)
Actraiser (SNES)
Secret of Mana (SNES)
Diablo (PC)
Mario 64 (N64)
Super Metroid (SNES)


AGAINST:

Diablo II w/ Expansion (PC): It was just severly lacking compared to the original, the characters suffered continuous and sometimes serious imbalances and it spent too much time trying to swamp down the player in place of development.

Out of This World (PC / 3DO): The pseudo-sequel is far better, OoTW always became tedious and had some really frustrating gameplay points.

Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (SMS): I Found it monotonous.

[ManekiNeko]

(posted here by the editor's request)

APB (Lynx): Kind of dull and not really to my liking. It's an innovative idea, but sometimes that's not enough to make a game a classic.

Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit/NES): Crummy chess/action hybrid which was even worse on the NES, where I played it. Stupidly simplistic fighting makes this a total bore.

Attack of the Timelord! (O2): No way does this deserve the same honor given to Galaga or Radiant Silvergun. A halfway decent game by Odyssey2 standards, but those aren't exactly high standards.

Axelay (SNES): Immensely overrated, gimmicky shooter that tries to be a next generation Gradius and fails. Miserably.

Blades of Vengeance (GEN): A so-so sword game by Electronic Arts... reasonably enjoyable, but no more so than Risky Woods, and that's no classic either.

Bonk's Revenge (TG-16): Bonk, Bonk, I'm totally not bonking. I never cared for this series much. If nothing else, at least it illustrates what Charlie Brown would have looked like in the year 5000 BC.

Boy and His Blob, A (NES): Crap, crap, megacrap. I'd be much more inclined to include this on a list of the worst NES games ever. A stupid play mechanic and primitive graphics make you wonder if Super Pitfall would have been any better if David Crane himself had designed it.

Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (NES): Symphony of the Night proved that Castlevania could work as an adventure game. Simon's Quest had the opposite effect. Lackluster level design and uninteresting gameplay drove a stake through the heart of this one.

Contra (NES): An overrated, immensely frustrating shooter. They're all worthless as far as I'm concerned. Luckily, Gunstar Heroes takes this lump of coal and presses it into a shining diamond.

Contra III: Alien Wars (SNES): Better than the previous games or the lame Genesis version, but still hard to consider one of the best games ever. The Game Boy Advance version will dampen any enthusiasm you once had for this title.

Deluxe Galaga (Amiga): I hate to be the deciding vote on this one, but Edgar Vigdal's take on the classic Namco shooter Galaga doesn't stack up to the original thanks to unimaginative enemy formations.

Demon Attack (2600): Strike one: it's repetitive. Strike two: no boss. Strike three: it's vastly overrated, which annoys me. You're out... of my 2600!

Doom II (PC): The original had a huge impact on the gaming industry, but what makes the sequel so different?

Double Dragon (Genesis): A good translation, but too fast on the Genny... and mediocre in comparison to other, better side-scrolling brawlers. Final Fight beats the hell out of this old clunker.

Dragon's Lair (3DO/Jag CD/CD-i): Where's the beef? Even better, where's the game? It seems like Bluth did 99% of the work on this one. Also, Dragon's Lair spawned the multimedia/full motion video trend, which is in and of itself enough reason to drop it from the list.

Final Fantasy VII (PSX): Never have I played a darker, more boring RPG than this one. It's full of special effects, rendering, and other popular mid 90's buzzwords, but the one thing it lacks is fun.

Food Fight (7800): What Home Alone would have been if it had been a halfway decent (but not great) game instead of the garbage T*HQ gave us. Even the main character looks like Macaulay Calkin. Cute idea, but not as good as Robotron.

Galactic Attack (Saturn): A reasonably well done shooter, but it's no Radiant Silvergun or Dodonpachi. The wimpy power up system and target lock on detracts from the game's appeal.

Galaga (7800): You mean the *****NES***** version, right? Oh man, please say you mean the NES version!

House of the Dead, The (DC): A fun shooter while it lasts, but it lacks substance. The first game had better level designs, but the second game looked a whole lot better. Combine the two and we'll talk about inclusion in a top 100 games list.

Immortal, The (Genesis): I never really understood this one. Cool concept but tough to play if you're not familiar with the play mechanics.

Jet Grind Radio (DC): Crazy Taxi was better, and more easily accessible. We all have this game to thank for the annoying cel-shading trend that's supposed to make polygonal characters look just like cartoons... but instead makes them look like polygons with a thick outline around them.

Jumpman (C64): Boy am I not into games in this genre. They're frustrating and unforgiving. If someone included Miner 2049'er in this list I'd give it a minus as well.

Kid Icarus (NES): Overrated, and not as professionally designed as other famous NES games. There's a reason they haven't made a sequel in nearly ten years, people.

King of Fighters '98 (Neo Geo): I'd much rather see '97 or '99 included on the list instead. KOF '98 always struck me as being contrived... so much so that SNK even wrote it out of the King of Fighters storyline.

Legend of Zelda, The (NES): No sir, didn't like it. I never warmed up to Zelda, especially this early version with cryptic puzzles and sterile graphics. The other ones are a little better... I can almost see why Ocarina of Time would be listed here.

Lode Runner (C64, Apple II, others): Beep beep! Whoops, wrong Runner. This Runner is wrong for this list, too... I don't have the patience to finish three quarters of a round only to have to do it all over again on the account of a single mistake. Why would anyone like that, anyway? I'll take Mr. Do!'s Castle instead of this, thanks.

Lunar: Silver Star Story (Sega CD): I dislike this game, but it does have a purpose... it served as the template for the similar, but greatly improved Grandia series.

Mario Party (N64): Nothing's as fun as bashing buttons until your thumbs bleed. Wait a minute, that's not fun at all!

Metal Slug 3 (Neo-Geo): Three Metal Slug games in one Top 100 list is overkill. I'm choosing Metal Slug 3 as the weakest link... for some reason, the zombies in the game take a zillion hits to kill, and that gets both frustrating and redundant. Even Metal Slug 4 was better than this.

Miner 2049'er (800): Wow! Frustration galore! Sign me up! Uh, no.

Mr. Driller (DC): Barely qualifies as a puzzle game thanks to its extreme simplicity. Now if you chose Mr. Driller on the Game Cube instead, that I could understand... it has more modes, each with clever new play mechanics.

Mr. Gimmick! (NES): An OK platformer is not good enough for a list of this magnitude.

Ms Pac-Man (7800): There are better versions of this game available, trust me. There's no reason to settle for this one.

Night Stalker (Intellivision): Enjoyable, but not as fun as Wizard of Wor.

Ninja Gaiden (NES): The only thing worse than watching your favorite arcade game devolve into some crappy Castlevania wannabee is watching everyone else get excited about it. Ninja Gaiden is another classic example of Nintendo's revisionist history... somehow, you just couldn't find "arcade translations" on the system which were actually, you know, arcade translations.

Ninja Gaiden 2 (NES): Less crappy than the first game, but still frustrating and annoying. The frustration is from bats and eagles knocking you into pits. The annoyance stems from the original "Ninja Gaiden" being popular enough to spawn a sequel.

Out of This World (PC / 3DO): Yes, please get it out of this world. Here's the side-scrolling equivalent of Dragon's Lair... make one wrong move and you're toast. Attention people of Earth: frustrating, rigid gameplay is not fun.

Pilotwings (SNES): This gimmicky flight simulator has aged so badly Nintendo won't even redesign it for the Game Boy Advance. Thank goodness good taste won out in the end over flashy Mode 7 effects and endless hype.

Pitfall II (5200): Granted, this was an early effort, but I've played better action/adventure games. Part of my indifference to this game stems from the fact that it inspired Super Pitfall. I've noticed scenes in both games that were very similar.

Pole Position II (7800): A good translation, but there are better arcade racing games out there.

Prince of Persia (Apple II, Amiga, others): Groundbreaking? Yes. Entertaining? Eh, well, maybe a little, but the pace is a little too plodding for my tastes.

Raiden (Jaguar): Looks like this is your last strike! Byeee! Don't forget to write! Also, take out a loan and buy some more original play mechanics... the whole shot/bomb thing has been done to death in a million other shooters.

Rainbow Islands (NES/PSX): Some Bubble Bobble games are excellent, and others... well, they're like this. The vertically scrolling rounds made the game somewhat awkward and distanced it from the other games in the series.

Rez (PS2): Too bad you can't hang this one on a museum wall. Rez always struck me as more of a work of art rather than a game... strip away the visuals and you've got a very plain shooter in the vein of Space Harrier.

Robotron: 2084 (7800): Again, there are better versions out there. The game kicks ass on the Saturn, and probably the Playstation too.

Rygar (NES): Weird, clumsy, and like Tecmo's other "gem" Ninja Gaiden, nothing at all like the arcade game. Kind of fun when you get used to the changes, but it doesn't get the gold medal in my opinion.

Shenmue (Dreamcast): Innovative, and more fun than expected, but slow and difficult to control.

Shining Force (Genesis): I'm not a Camelot fan, and this is one of the reasons why.

Slime World (Lynx): A freakishly weird adventure that's fun, but not incredible. The endless exploration is good for burning away a few brain cells when you're bored.

Solstice (NES): How hard can you possibly make an NES game? Eh, about this hard. The clumsy isometric perspective is tough to deal with, too.

Sonic & Knuckles (Genesis): It's pretty good, but I'd rather that one of the Game Boy Advance Sonic games were included instead. They're just as fun, and the graphics are crisper and more impressive.

Star Tropics (NES): Look, it's the Legend of Zel-Duh! A lobotomized version of Zelda with hip new characters isn't any more likely to entertain me than the real thing.

Streets of Rage (Genesis): I'd rather see Streets of Rage II on this list instead. The characters were larger and the game carried much more impact. The original looks like an NES game in comparison.

Super Bomberman 2 (SNES): Not the best of the Bomberman games, and there are plenty of them. Saturn Bomberman gets my vote as the best in this series.

Super Castlevania IV (SNES): Pick a Game Boy Advance version, any Game Boy Advance version. Whatever you choose, it'll be better than this. Here's another example of an early Super NES game that blows all the system's whistles and rings all its bells... but doesn't spend nearly as much time keeping the player entertained.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV (SNES): I'd rather have Turtles II: The Arcade Game if it's all the same to you.

Toe Jam & Earl (Genesis): I can't help but think of this game in the same light as ET. You wander around aimlessly, collecting stuff while weird Earthlings run out to harass you. The only thing missing are the pits.

Turmoil (2600): Hee hee, guess who gets the last vote? Sorry, but I don't like Turmoil much. It's too clumsy for a fast action shooter.

UN Squadron (SNES): It looks fantastic, but man is this game ever frustrating thanks to the semi rapid fire weapons and nerve-wracking klaxon that blows in your ears when you're hit.

Venture (ColecoVision): A so-so conversion of a so-so arcade game. The control is stiffer than it should be... Winky faces in the direction you point the joystick, THEN moves, instead of just running. The result is that you can't dodge an enemy at the last second, a feature most other shooters do offer.

Vib Ribbon (PSX): Overrated and hard to play. Weird stylistically, and not just because of the polygons... what the hell does Vibri keep turning into, anyway?

Wipeout (PSX): The sequel, as well as Wipeout 64, were better. Psynosis had the right idea, though... this is certainly a quantum leap ahead of F-Zero (two grades which I would probably give Nintendo's own futuristic racing game).

Zillion (SMS): Sega's answer to Metroid. Either that or insomnia... I can't tell which.

JR

[NvrMore]

Heads up, I'm over-stepping my mark for a moment..

You know I was just thinking about this whole keep or kill system and the problem is it relies on people putting down other people's choices or favorite games, which isn't really neccesary.

I mean, this isn't meant to be a list to represent the best games in general, it's just meant to be the Roundtable's top 100 i.e. the 100 games which people here consider to be the best, thus in terms of compiling the list it's simply about what each individual likes, not what they dislike, then all you have to do is add it all together and the best games will emerge through how many people they are favored by.

I did a SNES list on these boards a while ago because a similar problem was arising at the time in the official list using a method in which all I did was ask that people post their personal top 10 and then for each person who listed a title, that title got a point, thus as more people contributed the games became distinguishable in their popularity until a clear list of X number could be determined. It meant nobody had to put down another persons choices and as such nobody's choices were trampled on or disected. If your game didn't make the list it just meant that not everyone felt as strongly about it as you do, not that it was a bad game.

e.g. if making a top 5, people get to vote for their top 3:

Person A:

Game 1
Game 4
Game 2

Person B:

Game 2
Game 3
Game 1

Person C:

Game 2
Game 5
Game 3

Person D:

Game 2
Game 4
Game 1

Person E:

Game 3
Game 6
Game 5

Thus result list is:

Game 2 (4)
Game 1 (3)
Game 3 (3)
Game 4 (2)
Game 5 (2)
Game 6 (1)

..and anything scored to low doesn't make the list (e.g. game 6)

Anyway, just an idea to get around the arguments and be impartial, feel free to ignore, mock or take measured offence :D

[Kid Fenris]

I think that the slow progress of this list can be blamed on the limited input thus far. I'm surprised that so many forum regulars haven't yet put in their two cents. If this list is supposed to represent the opinions of the entire Roundtable, it's important that we get suggestions from everyone.

Except Chocobokick. She can sit out in the hall.

[Daniel Thomas]

I think what's really necessary here is to group together series of games. The way things are going, we're all arguing over which version of Castlevania or Contra or Mario is great, and which sucks.

Just group them together as a (series). That opens up a lot more space for more titles, and it's just easier on us all. Most game sequels, after all, are just minor enhancements, anyway.

[digitalpress]

Just group them together as a (series). That opens up a lot more space for more titles, and it's just easier on us all. Most game sequels, after all, are just minor enhancements, anyway.

Lots of good suggestions, and I promise I'm reading every one.

I'm kinda up for this. We've done it this way in individual system lists, so it would be along our lines anyway... someone want to second this motion (or state why it's a serious problem)? I kinda hoped we'd be able to choose games on their own merit (for me, Castlevania II BLOWS and the original and III were great) - but this might simplify things, and if you know me, you know I'm going for "simplify".

*looks "simplify" up in dictionary*

[Arrrhalomynn]

I would also like to add planescape: torment.
One of the most brilliant and unique rpg's of the last years. Really an amazing game.

I also agree mr. driller shouldn't be in there. It's really not that much of a good game. I would love to see columns added though.

I think Tomb Raider deserves a place. Everybody seems to hate it now, but when it was released it was quite a special, good game. And fun to play too.

Railroad tycoon is one of my all time favorites and should be in the list. Playing with your own trains on the computer, wow!

And how about Tenchu: stealth assasins or tekken 3? They might not be master pieces like doom or tetris, but I certainly enjoyed them a lot more than a Zelda, metal gear solid or wipeout.