Piracy

[ProgrammingAce]

I'm splitting this off from this thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126832


Real dick move. All he was doing was trying to help the dude out and this is how you repay a fellow DPer. WoW, arent you so cool? Dont you have anything better to do? I swear some people have no lives at all!

So what you're saying is, as long as someone belongs to the same forum that i do, i should be ok with him stealing from my company? If you want to run 2 copies of a game at the same time, you're legally required to buy two discs.

I don't care if you have a modded 360, hell i don't care if you pirate games, but if you're stupid enough to put it in writing on a public forum, then i'm going to have fun reporting you.

Honestly, i didn't report the dude and i have no intentions of doing so. My goal is to scare people into being afraid of openly discussing piracy. My paycheck comes directly as a result of preventing piracy.

I'm honestly surprised to see so many people here turn a blind eye to piracy.

[Icarus Moonsight]

There is anonymity ya know. You kinda rubbed his face in shit there over nothing. I understand you just wanted to make the guy squirm and make a spectacle out of it and maybe do some good and change a mind or two. But, what real good has come of it?

[carlcarlson]

I don't think as many people would have jumped on you if your initial post wasn't so snarky. I think most of us here would agree that piracy is wrong/dumb, myself included.

[neuropolitique]

I'm with Prog Ace. Bragging to someone that you stole their shit is dumb as fuck. Take yer medicine.

[ProgrammingAce]

There is anonymity ya know. You kinda rubbed his face in shit there over nothing.

Yeah, but see... it's not nothing. Even ignoring the legal issues, modding your system is what allows the fucktards on xbox live to cheat. Ever seen the guys in Gears of War who shoot a box full of rockets out of their shotgun? They're the ones with the modded consoles who think it's funny to screw with the files on the disc.

I've gotten fairly sick of running into people in Gears and CoD who are cheating. These days, i report every one of them for cheating. In a lot of cases, it's because the games themselves are a buggy pile of crap, but in some it's because they're tampering with the files on the discs.

Microsoft doesn't *allow* developers to do a consistency check against the disc contents. They tell the developers to leave the modders up to them. Since microsoft wants to be the ones to handle the problem, why shouldn't we report the people modding?

[Icarus Moonsight]

No, I meant you told him he was reported when he wasn't. That's the nothing.

[ProgrammingAce]

No, I meant you told him he was reported when he wasn't. That's the nothing.

oh, well. yeah... that's 'cause i'm an acehole.

[eskobar]

Yeah, but see... it's not nothing.


Agree.

If you just think about how many people "do it only once" or thinks that one "illegal copy is nothing" we can count thousands .... or hundreds of thousands !!!

Piracy has always been an important issue for me, piracy has destroyed the tiny video game industry that existed in Mexico. It all started with people that thought : "I'll only but this pirate game to see if i like and then purchase the original" ...

A few years ago it was very hard to find an original game in Monterrey, Mexico; only a few Wal Marts and Sony shops carried a few popular games but we missed 95% of the USA releases ....

We are improving now and today the industry is growing but with the actual problems of the economy, it will be tougher for any company to cover the losses of piracy.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Yeah, I'm an asshole too and we know our kind quite well. LOL

Hey now. When did this turn into an inquisition? Am I on trial now? :hmm: All I said, basically, is that Ace should have reported him and left it at that. But, he's nicer than I am I guess. :p

[roushimsx]

While I won't blanket shit on piracy (everyone pirates something sometime!) or console modding (convenience!), I firmly believe that modded consoles should be banned with a vengeance from Xbox Live to deter cheating. Piracy may be illegal, but cheating flat out ruins games for legitimate players. Hell, I very rarely even play games online with people I don't know either in real life or through a common online community because of how much I detest cheaters.

Oh man, especially with XBL being a pay service? Please be banning the hell out of them before they ruin my gameplay experience.

[geneshifter]

Piracy is so bad that some PC game developers have said that they will no longer support the platform :(

All one has to do to see the extent of the problem is google "360 ISOs" or "PS3 backups" and you'll come to illegal links. How are these websites allowed to offer this?

This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed in a more meaningful way. I know people ever since Napster that think they are entitled to any information on the net. Insane.

[Emuaust]

Im with prog here, openly admitting your a pirate on a forum such as DP with members who are active in the industry and most of the time opposed to piracy is as neuro said DUMB AS FUCK.

[Matt-El]

Im pretty sure it is legal to own a backup of the games you own(which I did with my genuine copy of GOW2)


While it is legal to have a "backup" copy of a game, it isn't legal to use the backup and the primary copy at the same time, which is what CDiablo is doing.

Fact of the matter is, because of knowledge on this point that you had that the person didn't have, you reported it.

Even if he didn't know what he did wrong, should he get punished?

On another note, if a person had pirated say, PS2 games, would you still report him? It isn't harming your job security, right? Are you that virtuous in the situation? Merely stating that you work for the company that you reported him to instantly attaches bias to your actions. Wether it be of an almighty quest to ban all illegal activity, or save your bottom line.

[Tupin]

Anyone who is stupid enough to admit that they pirate Xbox games on a forum full of people against it deserves to be publicly humiliated.

[geneshifter]

Anyone who is stupid enough to admit that they pirate Xbox games on a forum full of people against it deserves to be publicly humiliated.

and flogged. Don't forget the floggings ;)

[noname11]

I suggest nothing short of Guantanamo Bay for the criminal.



Modding and XBOX, how dare he? Some waterboarding will beat the Fair Use out of him!

[neuropolitique]

Fact of the matter is, because of knowledge on this point that you had that the person didn't have, you reported it.

Even if he didn't know what he did wrong, should he get punished?.

Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

[Matt-El]

But what punishment should someone receive due to the circumstances? Law is more than just the written word.

And let's be clear on the fact, that if a random person reports something, it is not the same situation as an investigation orchestrated by actual law enforcement.

[neuropolitique]

But what punishment should someone receive due to the circumstances? Law is more than just the written word.

And let's be clear on the fact, that if a random person reports something, it is not the same situation as an investigation orchestrated by actual law enforcement.

A banning from Xbox live is also not the same situation as jail time or a fine.

[Matt-El]

A banning from Xbox live is also not the same situation as jail time or a fine.

Right, so what exactly are you aiming at?

[neuropolitique]

You asked if he should be punished because he didn't know the laws.
I said yes.

You said one guys word isn't a real investigation, implying that there should be no real punishment as a result.
I said a banning from Live isn't a real punishment.

[CosmicMonkey]

If someone openly admits to piracy on a gaming forum such as this, they deserve to have their Xbox banned. No, they're not going to get jumped on by the law, but at least it's one more blatant pirate banned from Live.

They chose to openly talk about pirating games and modding their 360, so they should deal with the consequences.

[skaar]

Eh, nevermind.

[jdc]

The problem with piracy is that it allows people to satisfy an expensive and addictive gaming jones that they otherwise could not afford. After a time of acquiring free software, they soon start to out-and-out REFUSE to pay for any type of software whatsoever. It's a selfish attitude to take. You think that it can't hurt anyone? Everyone here knows Joe and his DP store. How'd you feel if his business was to fail? Several years ago, I too ran an independant bricks and mortar videogame store. This was at the time of the Playstation and the then brand new Dreamcast. PSX modding was the order of the day and news was getting around that Sega's new system needed no modding in order to run burned games. Here I was, making sure that my store was well stocked with all of the latest PSX and Dreamcast games. I got so frustrated with "gamers" coming into the shop, looking at all of the new releases, and then proudly proclaiming to my face that they didn't need to buy because they had a modded PSX and were going to rent and burn a copy instead. If games don't sell they become dated and almost impossible to move. This in turn means no cash flow. Not all of my customers were pirating, but large enough numbers were doing it that it caused me to finally walk away from the retail side of the gaming industry.

[Sabz5150]

One word sums up my views: Spore.

When companies don't treat people like criminals with DRM and lockouts that prevent them from doing something perfectly legal (homebrew, legal emulation and backups, etc.) then the people may stop acting like criminals.

[CosmicMonkey]

The problem with piracy is that it allows people to satisfy an expensive and addictive gaming jones that they otherwise could not afford. After a time of acquiring free software, they soon start to out-and-out REFUSE to pay for any type of software whatsoever.

Indeed. I had one of my mates over on Monday night and we ended up on the subject of Wii modding and homebrew. He was well impressed when I told him that I don't even need to crack the case and solder in a chip; I just need a certain game and SD card. But then after further conversation, I convinced him it's not a good plan. It's technically his son's Wii and we decided it's not good to teach a 6 year old that he can get free pirated games. Get him on that road now, and the boy will expect that from every future console.

[Matt-El]

What about hard to find/unreleased stuff? Imports? If there is no chance of it coming out anytime soon, or no way the person will be able to pay and play it through conventional means, should that piracy be banned?

[ProgrammingAce]

What about hard to find/unreleased stuff? Imports? If there is no chance of it coming out anytime soon, or no way the person will be able to pay and play it through conventional means, should that piracy be banned?

You can't pirate something that isn't available. Radiant Silvergun is easily available, but expensive. I'm perfectly fine with modding your console to play imports, i really wish more publishers would allow their games to go multi region.

While it sucks that people bought the game for $50 and are selling it for $150, welcome to capitalism. That's exactly how the stock market and your 401K works. Sometimes you just get lucky. Doesn't mean everyone else gets to pirate the game 'cause they can't or don't want to pay $150. Is it wrong for someone to make a profit when they sell their house? Should goods always remain the same price? What about inflation?


One word sums up my views: Spore.

When companies don't treat people like criminals with DRM and lockouts that prevent them from doing something perfectly legal (homebrew, legal emulation and backups, etc.) then the people may stop acting like criminals.

The current use of the term "Piracy" in relations to copyright infringement comes from 1703. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement). People were pirating intellectual property long before there was such thing as DRM. The DRM came as a result of the population's actions, not the other way around.

[Sabz5150]

The current use of the term "Piracy" in relations to copyright infringement comes from 1703. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement). People were pirating intellectual property long before there was such thing as DRM. The DRM came as a result of the population's actions, not the other way around.

*I* did nothing to warrant *MY* purchases being locked down by these horrid methods. *I* am not a criminal, do not treat me like one.

[Matt-El]

Well let's say, "Double Dragon II" for Japanese Mega Drive. There are no copies available on ebay, there is no issue of money if you have the money, but you can't just go to a store and buy it. But if you really want to play it, you could try and track down a rom site, an emulator and play it. So though you can't copy it, but can download it. How do you feel about that situation?

[ProgrammingAce]

Well let's say, "Double Dragon II" for Japanese Mega Drive. There are no copies available on ebay, there is no issue of money if you have the money, but you can't just go to a store and buy it. But if you really want to play it, you could try and track down a rom site, an emulator and play it. So though you can't copy it, but can download it. How do you feel about that situation?

Personally? I don't really care. If it's not actively in production, the only people you're hurting are fellow collectors. I don't think it's right and i don't do it, but i'm just not that into classic games.


*I* did nothing to warrant *MY* purchases being locked down by these horrid methods. *I* am not a criminal, do not treat me like one.

Never? Not once? You've never grabbed a song off of napster, downloaded a rom off the net, burned a copy of a CD from a friend? Pirated a copy of windows back when you were 13?

If so, then good for you. What would you like us to do then? Make 2 versions of the Xbox and only sell one to the people who swear not to pirate games? The console isn't region locked, region locking is up to the individual publisher. If you want to play japanese games, go bitch to the japanese publishers.

[Porksta]

As with music, I can't stand people that say they download the whole thing so that they can "see if they like it, and then buy it if they do." BUUUUUUULLSHIIIIIIT!

[geneshifter]

As with music, I can't stand people that say they download the whole thing so that they can "see if they like it, and then buy it if they do." BUUUUUUULLSHIIIIIIT!

Yeah, such a lame excuse especially today when everyone is posting gameplay vids on youtube. Go look at those instead of stealing.

[Sabz5150]

Never? Not once? You've never grabbed a song off of napster, downloaded a rom off the net, burned a copy of a CD from a friend? Pirated a copy of windows back when you were 13?

When I was 13, 3.1 was a kludge and got in the way of my games.

The roms in my possession are for my legal purposes. I hardly emulate unless I am on the road.

My music downloads involve live sets and radio broadcasts of events. The law allows me to do that.

Now, I won't say I haven't done any piracy, but the things I did snag I have since bought legally. If something is good enough, I will drop my money for it... it is worth it to me.


If so, then good for you. What would you like us to do then? Make 2 versions of the Xbox and only sell one to the people who swear not to pirate games? The console isn't region locked, region locking is up to the individual publisher. If you want to play japanese games, go bitch to the japanese publishers.

I don't want to deal with DRM. DRM and other "protection methods" are more about sacking the customer for more cash than worrying about hypothetical statistics about how much a company "might have lost" due to the evil pirates. it always has been. Case in point? Broadcast flag. Guess what? After mid February, we're all taking a bite of that particular sh!t sandwich. Why do you think DTV is being pushed by the industry? Tivo and DVD recorders are cutting into profits at the movie stores. Now we can dictate what they can and cannot record. And commercials? Can't skip them. Take that Sony v. Betamax!!!

Again... Spore. Who thought it was a good idea to restrict reinstallation? Why is this person working somewhere besides Taco Bell? Who are you to dictate how many times I reinstall my machine? Why are you saying that I can no longer use the software *I LEGALLY PURCHASED* anymore, simply because I wiped my box?I purchased a license to your software, I expect to be able to use it.

You want a lesson in the DRM/piracy link? There it is.

I don't support piracy and I purchase my games legally (that's the point of this hobby) but the other edge of that sword is that I have no pity for ANY developer or company that employs DRM. Not one single shred. If I purchase a game with DRM, I will use every method I have to crack it, simply so I don't have to deal with the headaches. I back up my games. This is Fair Use. So why again are you restricting my *FAIR USE*?

[Sabz5150]

Yeah, such a lame excuse especially today when everyone is posting gameplay vids on youtube. Go look at those instead of stealing.

Watch a video of your next car instead of test driving it.

[kedawa]

Modding an XBOX 360 doesn't allow you to cheat.
I don't know ehere you got that from. All it does is allow 1:1 copies of discs to be run in the DVDROM drive.
It doesn't allow you to run unsigned code or homebrew or anything like that.
The people who are cheating are modding their hard drive caches, which is something completely different.

[geneshifter]

Watch a video of your next car instead of test driving it.

Please. I think a complex machine such as a car is a little different than a disc with some code on it.

[darkslime]

Please. I think a complex machine such as a car is a little different than a disc with some code on it. In a way, yes, but in the sense we are talking about, no. You can't see important aspects of the game in a video, such as how it controls. The legal way that supports the economy would be to rent it though.

[Sabz5150]

Please. I think a complex machine such as a car is a little different than a disc with some code on it.

Really?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/CDROM.jpg

Here's a disc. What kinda code is on it? You mean I can't find out until I buy? Oh, but I can see pictures and watch some ten second clips.

"Some code" can produce either a killer app or an app whose writer should be killed. Take Mortal Kombat for example. By only looking at the pictures and only watching some video clips, you'd expect the SNES version to trump the Genesis. Better graphics and sound all the way around.

Too bad the videos and pictures didn't tell you about the split second control delay, and that is something which makes or breaks a game. Just some code.

[ProgrammingAce]

I don't support piracy and I purchase my games legally (that's the point of this hobby) but the other edge of that sword is that I have no pity for ANY developer or company that employs DRM. Not one single shred. If I purchase a game with DRM, I will use every method I have to crack it, simply so I don't have to deal with the headaches. I back up my games. This is Fair Use. So why again are you restricting my *FAIR USE*?

PC gaming is dead. Unless your game connects to some sort of service like Steam or is an MMO, you're dead in the water. As a matter of fact, i hope PC gaming dies a quick death. I hope EA DRM's each and every release they put out to the point where people stop buying their games. But they won't stop buying the games... because the average person doesn't care.

My first job in this industry was as an AI programmer for a AAA PC game. I'm no stranger to that side of the business. When you only sell 50,000 copies of your game, and you have 75,000 accounts on your multiplayer list, then your platform of choice is screwed.

Let's take a look at the top 10 best selling PC games for the week before christmas:

1. World Of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King (Blizzard)
2. Spore (EA Maxis)
3. Call Of Duty: World At War (Treyarch)
4. Left 4 Dead (Valve)
5. Fallout 3 (Bethesda)
6. The Sims 2 Deluxe (EA Maxis)
7. The Sims 2 Apartment Life expansion pack (EA Maxis)
8. Bejeweled Twist (PopCap)
9. World of Warcraft Battle Chest (Blizzard)
10. The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff expansion pack (EA Maxis)

Wow, there's a branch of the industry we should struggle to keep alive, eh?

Screw DTV and broadcast flags, that's your problem. I haven't watched TV since 2003. You're arguing with the wrong guy on that one. I didn't like the restrictions, so i stopped watching. I recommend you do the same.



Here's a disc. What kinda code is on it? You mean I can't find out until I buy? Oh, but I can see pictures and watch some ten second clips..

So as long as you only break the law to make sure a game is good, you should be free to do so. Is that your point? How about you just try out the demo? If the game doesn't have a demo, don't buy it! If they choose not to have a demo, it isn't your right to pirate the game.

Agan, what do you propose? We allow everyone to pirate whatever they want for 24 hours? How do you expect to police that without.... DRM?

[geneshifter]

Really?

Here's a disc. What kinda code is on it? You mean I can't find out until I buy? Oh, but I can see pictures and watch some ten second clips.

"Some code" can produce either a killer app or an app whose writer should be killed. Take Mortal Kombat for example. By only looking at the pictures and only watching some video clips, you'd expect the SNES version to trump the Genesis. Better graphics and sound all the way around.

Too bad the videos and pictures didn't tell you about the split second control delay, and that is something which makes or breaks a game. Just some code.

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

[kedawa]

3 of those games don't suck.
That puts the PC well ahead of the Wii when it comes to worthwhile games.

[kedawa]

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

You really need to try games on PC before buying them for performance and reliability reasons, and I haven't seen PC games for rent anywhere in the last five years.

[scooterb23]

3 of those games don't suck.
That puts the PC well ahead of the Wii when it comes to worthwhile games.

Oh my God, so witty.... :rolleyes:

Try to keep the thread on target, about game piracy, not trolling some silly anti-Wii "agenda"

[kedawa]

It is on topic. His point is that the PC market isn't worth sustaining. My counterpoint is that if that's the case, then neither is the current most successful console, which has an even fewer good games.

Stop being a butthurt fanboy.

[Porksta]

It is called demos guys, come on.

[Chainclaw]

Stardock has been doing an excellent job of selling and making money off of games with no DRM. Obviously not everyone can do the same as them, they appeal to a niche audience, and apparently that audience happens to pay for games.

The biggest issue with the whole piracy discussion is people try to argue morality against legality.

I'm not going to chime in one my opinions on the morality of the subject, but I do have a lot of questions about piracy.

Is it illegal if no one enforces the law? This is where the abandonware argument comes from. Obviously nothing is automatically abandonware, but there have been a few old PC game license holders who have officially "abandoned" their games. I believe the same thing happens with a lot of Atari 2600 games.

What about old abandoned games for old abandoned systems? I doubt anyone will persecute you if you pirate a Channel F game, but is it technically illegal? I picked the Channel F because I don't know if any company owns the rights to those games nowadays, or if they do, I doubt they know they do.

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing.

[darkslime]

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing. It's illegal because sega still owns the rights to it, even if it's from another region.

I believe it's technically illegal to sell import games because it goes against the end user license agreement. That's why sites like lik-sang got shut down by sony.

[Chainclaw]

It's illegal because sega still owns the rights to it, even if it's from another region.

I believe it's technically illegal to sell import games because it goes against the end user license agreement. That's why sites like lik-sang got shut down by sony.

I assume a lot of this falls under international copyright law, then. What about companies that only create and sell software within a single region? What about someone in Canada pirating digitally distributed software that is not for sale in that country?

Also, lik-sang got shut down because they sold a lot of hardware that falls into a pretty gray area, tools for pirating software. There are plenty of importers who stay on the level, like Play-Asia. There are even large retail chains in the US that sell imported software, like Fry's Electronics. I even saw Jump Superstars for the DS at Best Buy a few years back.

The Mother 3 subject is also pretty interesting. Apparently the guy who wrote the fan translation visited Nintendo for unrelated business, and a few of the Nintendo employees told him how excited they were for the translation. I doubt anyone will be persecuted for pirating Mother 3, even though it is clearly illegal, and Nintendo would be entirely in their rights for punishing people.

[kedawa]

Lik-Sang didn't actually break any laws. Sony sued them for selling asian PSPs to european customers, and LS couldn't afford the legal battle.

As far as imports go, there's nothing illegal about importing games into canada. There's also nothing illegal about circumventing copy protection here, although even if there were, you could always import the appropriate hardware.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Holy shit, what a ruckus. :popcorn:

[scooterb23]

It is on topic. His point is that the PC market isn't worth sustaining. My counterpoint is that if that's the case, then neither is the current most successful console, which has an even fewer good games.

Stop being a butthurt fanboy.

lol. Fanboy. Funny stuff. Anyway...


Stardock has been doing an excellent job of selling and making money off of games with no DRM. Obviously not everyone can do the same as them, they appeal to a niche audience, and apparently that audience happens to pay for games.

The biggest issue with the whole piracy discussion is people try to argue morality against legality.

I'm not going to chime in one my opinions on the morality of the subject, but I do have a lot of questions about piracy.

Is it illegal if no one enforces the law? This is where the abandonware argument comes from. Obviously nothing is automatically abandonware, but there have been a few old PC game license holders who have officially "abandoned" their games. I believe the same thing happens with a lot of Atari 2600 games.

What about old abandoned games for old abandoned systems? I doubt anyone will persecute you if you pirate a Channel F game, but is it technically illegal? I picked the Channel F because I don't know if any company owns the rights to those games nowadays, or if they do, I doubt they know they do.

I guess I'll also ask, how is pirating games not available in your region illegal? For a specific example of a game that will never see a US release, Segagaga. I doubt Sega would do anything about it, I'm curious as to the whole thing.

A couple things: the companies that have officially abandoned their games, those are fine go at those all you want, and there is a fair amount out there.


Now the rest goes under the "I am not a lawyer, but..." clause

Just because the law isn't enforced...doesn't mean it isn't still breaking the law.

It's kind of like rolling through that stop sign on the deserted road at 4 AM. Noone will ever see you, noone will ever know, but you still didn't stop at the sign...so you still broke the law.

Also...persecution seems a little extreme, I think prosecution was the term you were looking for ;)

For obsolete systems, there are still copyrights that protect those for a certain amount of time. Even if the company doesn't exist anymore, and all the people related to that company are dead...until the day that the copyright lapses...it's still illegal. Like you said, there's almost 0 chance anything will come of it, but it is still out there.

That's my understanding at least.

[geneshifter]

You really need to try games on PC before buying them for performance and reliability reasons, and I haven't seen PC games for rent anywhere in the last five years.

Oh OK, I see where you are coming from. I play a lot of PC games, too.

True, you can't rent PC games anywhere that I know of and reliability/performance are indeed major issues with PC games. Personally, I've just waited some time after each PC release and then searched for user feedback from someone with similar specs if no demo is available. If they don't provide a demo I usually will skip it until I hear a lot of feedback first.

[Chainclaw]

And on the subject of renting PC games, there are plenty of services nowadays that more or less follow the rental format. I had a Yahoo Games on Demand subscription for a few months, then GameTap, and currently nothing because my laptop can't play games.

On the subject of renting in general, some developers feel that game rentals are an even bigger sales inhibitor than piracy.

[kedawa]

I mostly just buy older stuff anyway, because it's so cheap and I know my system will run it, but with a lot of games, the official demo isn't a good indication of how the game currently runs, especially for games that have been out for six months or more and have been patched. The actual game actually runs better in many cases.

[Rob2600]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm curious to see your opinion: what about buying used games?

Of course, used games are legal. I'm not arguing that...but from a philosophical standpoint, buying a used game is just as bad as pirating a game, as far as the developer and/or publisher is concerned. Either way, the company doesn't make any money from it, right?


Jdc mentioned several posts back (near the end of page one) that people get addicted to pirating media. This is true. Some people have gigabytes worth of MP3 files that they've never even listened to. They download the songs just because they're there.

People do the same thing with Netflix DVDs. They get a new movie in the mail, copy it, and mail the DVD back. The copy goes on a shelf, never to be watched. I dont get it.

It's a waste of time, like most addictions, I suppose.

[G-Boobie]

I'm with Prog Ace. Bragging to someone that you stole their shit is dumb as fuck. Take yer medicine.

Amen.

[otoko]

I'm with Prog Ace. Bragging to someone that you stole their shit is dumb as fuck. Take yer medicine.

I don't know.. Wouldn't it be more talking about taking part of the act of hurting their business and way of life instead of "stealing" directly?

I know Ace worked on the 360, but he's not working on the games.. but since he's part of the industry it hurts his business when someone takes part in this.

I guess I could be wrong though.

ANYWAY. I also agree. eh. meh.

[ProgrammingAce]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm curious to see your opinion: what about buying used games?

70% of what i own is used. When you have 2000 games, even if you only save $5 each you've saved $10,000. If i want a game, and the used version isn't available then i'll buy new. So if they don't sell many copies, then they get a new sale. If they've already sold a ton and gamestop is floating in them, then they don't get the extra sale from me.

The whole "used games are stealing" argument is retarded. Right of first sale and all that nonsense.

The fact that publishers aren't usually willing to make additional print runs when the consumers desire it kind of kills the idea of not having used sales. You can't have it both ways. You can't create artificial scarcity and then bar people from selling used.

[Sabz5150]

I'll simply refer you back to the internet where you have videos, gameFAQs, forums for technical assistance, etc...

Again, can the same be said about a car? You can see how well it drives, you can hear the roar of the engine, but nobody buys before test driving.


There is no logical way you can argue your side of this argument beyond wanting a digital copy of it for true backup purposes in case your disc goes bad. Many media such as DVDs no longer have this fair use clause and it is illegal for you to back it up.

The fact that I am no longer allowed this fair use is what angers me.


Not only that, but you can also rent the game from a variety of places. Treat that as a demo if you like. That's all I'm saying.

Do you pay to test drive a car?

[gepeto]

In this day and age I don't think there is anyone in this modern era that does not have at least one thing on there computer that is pirated or copyrights violated in some form.

[Sabz5150]

PC gaming is dead. Unless your game connects to some sort of service like Steam or is an MMO, you're dead in the water. As a matter of fact, i hope PC gaming dies a quick death. I hope EA DRM's each and every release they put out to the point where people stop buying their games. But they won't stop buying the games... because the average person doesn't care.

DRM will damage the PC gaming sector. It already has.


My first job in this industry was as an AI programmer for a AAA PC game. I'm no stranger to that side of the business. When you only sell 50,000 copies of your game, and you have 75,000 accounts on your multiplayer list, then your platform of choice is screwed.

Or the game was meh. A good enough piece of software will weather the piracy storm. Fine examples are Doom and Quake. Sure, they did see their share of piracy, but those two games made enough money to fund a small war.

Server-side registration is also useful for online games. Guild wars... they don't sell the game, they sell regcodes to play it. That works quite nicely. I can make a billion copies of the game on CD and it matters none... the software isn't the money maker.


Let's take a look at the top 10 best selling PC games for the week before christmas:

1. World Of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King (Blizzard)
2. Spore (EA Maxis)
3. Call Of Duty: World At War (Treyarch)
4. Left 4 Dead (Valve)
5. Fallout 3 (Bethesda)
6. The Sims 2 Deluxe (EA Maxis)
7. The Sims 2 Apartment Life expansion pack (EA Maxis)
8. Bejeweled Twist (PopCap)
9. World of Warcraft Battle Chest (Blizzard)
10. The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff expansion pack (EA Maxis)

Wow, there's a branch of the industry we should struggle to keep alive, eh?

PC gaming died for me when Quake 3 fell out of favor.


Screw DTV and broadcast flags, that's your problem. I haven't watched TV since 2003. You're arguing with the wrong guy on that one. I didn't like the restrictions, so i stopped watching. I recommend you do the same.

That's great. However turning your back to an issue doesn't make it go away. The fact is that DRM is being leveraged as a profit maker, not copy protection. It just happens to be real good at preventing copies.


So as long as you only break the law to make sure a game is good, you should be free to do so. Is that your point? How about you just try out the demo? If the game doesn't have a demo, don't buy it! If they choose not to have a demo, it isn't your right to pirate the game.

I do try demos, and quite often. Not all games have them. The concept works great... remember shareware?

I want to try before I buy. I don't want to spend money on something, only to get home and have a voice blast over my speakers saying "HAH! YOU'RE SCREWED NOW!". Thank you, Master of Orion 3.

Customer return? Oh, no no no no no sir... you opened that game, you can't take it back. We can give you a newly boxed copy so you can hear that voice again.


Agan, what do you propose? We allow everyone to pirate whatever they want for 24 hours? How do you expect to police that without.... DRM?

A compromise can be drawn. You can make sure all the milk's outta the cow without stomping on fair use. However the problem lies in that "your side" could care less about fair use. You're too worried about turning that group of pirates into a stack of money. Sad to say, there will always be piracy. Nothing can be done. But like you said, people won't stop buying games.

[WhatsMyUsername]

Yeah, but see... it's not nothing. Even ignoring the legal issues, modding your system is what allows the fucktards on xbox live to cheat. Ever seen the guys in Gears of War who shoot a box full of rockets out of their shotgun? They're the ones with the modded consoles who think it's funny to screw with the files on the disc.

I've gotten fairly sick of running into people in Gears and CoD who are cheating. These days, i report every one of them for cheating. In a lot of cases, it's because the games themselves are a buggy pile of crap, but in some it's because they're tampering with the files on the discs.

Microsoft doesn't *allow* developers to do a consistency check against the disc contents. They tell the developers to leave the modders up to them. Since microsoft wants to be the ones to handle the problem, why shouldn't we report the people modding?

I just want to point out that most of the cheating on Gears and CoD are glitches in the games that the developers did not take out. It's the developers fault for releasing an unfinished game. In CoD the whole going under the map anyone can do that. And the glitch fest in GoW those can usually be done by anyone too. I'm not saying there is no modders that use it to cheat but just pointing out those two games are full of glitches that are abused. Though the Gears team announced they are releasing a patch to fix a bunch of them. (no more shield glitch :))

[smork]

One word sums up my views: Spore.

When companies don't treat people like criminals with DRM and lockouts that prevent them from doing something perfectly legal (homebrew, legal emulation and backups, etc.) then the people may stop acting like criminals.

Um, the proper solution is to not buy that software if you don't like the DRM. Not steal it.

If I think a restaurant is too expensive and treats me condescendingly, do I have the right to eat there, run up a big tab, then skip it "to show them a lesson?"

Really, if you don't like how a company treats you, don't shop there/buy their products. Simple. It's a business, enough people don't shop there they'll learn or go under.

[Porksta]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm curious to see your opinion: what about buying used games?

Of course, used games are legal. I'm not arguing that...but from a philosophical standpoint, buying a used game is just as bad as pirating a game, as far as the developer and/or publisher is concerned. Either way, the company doesn't make any money from it, right?


Jdc mentioned several posts back (near the end of page one) that people get addicted to pirating media. This is true. Some people have gigabytes worth of MP3 files that they've never even listened to. They download the songs just because they're there.

People do the same thing with Netflix DVDs. They get a new movie in the mail, copy it, and mail the DVD back. The copy goes on a shelf, never to be watched. I dont get it.

It's a waste of time, like most addictions, I suppose.

With used games, as well as used CDs, cars, etc, there is only one copy being played at any given time. One person still owns the right to one game.

[Sabz5150]

Um, the proper solution is to not buy that software if you don't like the DRM. Not steal it.

If I think a restaurant is too expensive and treats me condescendingly, do I have the right to eat there, run up a big tab, then skip it "to show them a lesson?"

Really, if you don't like how a company treats you, don't shop there/buy their products. Simple. It's a business, enough people don't shop there they'll learn or go under.

*I* do not pirate. However I do not pity companies that employ DRM. If you treat me wrong, don't expect pity when you are treated wrong.

[NE146]

I have to admit that a full 100% of my Apple-2e collection is completely and utterly pirated. I copied that floppy :(

[demen999]

All I want is to actually own what I buy and not be restricted to how many times I can install it on the SAME computer. I rarely play PC games, mostly due to my comp being abit slow :p but also I don't wanna deal with the whole digital rights thing. As far as consoles, I am super scared to even think of modding them, I prize all of my consoles.
I hear you Ace, and where you come from but ethat scare tactic wasn't cool. Nothing wrong with defending where you coming from!

[eskobar]

Watch a video of your next car instead of test driving it.

Car manufacturers offer test drives and many companies offers demos or free play at some stores.

And its much easier to figure out a game by watching than a car in motion, although can be the same if you have driven as many cars as games played. you know, you usually fell in love with a car by just watching it in motion and looking the interiors and knowing basic stuff like HP for example.


Anyway, we know what is and what is not piracy. We only try to argue about the things that concern us directly.

We need to accept our different levels of piracy or illegal acts committed because many of us have and are incurring on such acts.

Importing games is illegal, for example.

Resale of games is illegal.

How is this illegal ???.. check the back cover of any game :S

I think that importing does indeed harms the industry in many ways and i am not asking for support, i know what i am doing and i just cannot justify it.

But i ask for a truce and go for the information way to educate us.

[Pente]

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4278/piracyuk4.jpg

[Fanboy]

^ Well, that's facile.

[FxMercenary]

i try before i buy on some out of print stuff. I downloaded a copy of lunar 1, 2 and vay for the sega cd and burned it to disc to play. about 3 weeks later i bought all 3 in a lot for 80 dollars. Same with snes and nes roms. I started with just roms while i was on a nostalgia trip one week, next thing i know, im spending tons of cash on ebay for original systems and games!

So yes, some people do actually buy stuff after "piracy" esp for the game manuals and box art!

what is your opinion on websites like retrousb.com that sells those powerpaks for the nes? Or repro carts and stuff like the NWC 1990 repro cart? Pirating?

[Sabz5150]

Car manufacturers offer test drives and many companies offers demos or free play at some stores.

And its much easier to figure out a game by watching than a car in motion, although can be the same if you have driven as many cars as games played. you know, you usually fell in love with a car by just watching it in motion and looking the interiors and knowing basic stuff like HP for example.

I will use Mortal Kombat as my example again. There is no amount of video watching that could tell you about the control delay on the SNES version. And that breaks a sale.

In car terms it's the difference between just seeing a 400bhp engine and knowing exactly where on the tach to expect that power.

I respect the try-before-you-buy gamestores. Almost all of my business goes there.


Anyway, we know what is and what is not piracy. We only try to argue about the things that concern us directly.

We need to accept our different levels of piracy or illegal acts committed because many of us have and are incurring on such acts.

Importing games is illegal, for example.

Resale of games is illegal.

How is this illegal ???.. check the back cover of any game :S

There aren't enough jail cells, even if you pack them ten deep.


I think that importing does indeed harms the industry in many ways and i am not asking for support, i know what i am doing and i just cannot justify it.

I disagree. Importing is still the legal sale of a game, just to a longer distance. If Let's Fighting Love II: Protect My Balls is never released stateside, then what damage are you doing acquiring it by other legal means? There is no theft, no IP infringing, there is no law stating that a game cannot be sold across the borders (now if they include non-exportable encryption, that is another very sneaky story).


But i ask for a truce and go for the information way to educate us.

All that I ask is that I am allowed fair use. I don't want to steal games, that isn't the point of our particular hobby. DRM prevents my fair use. For that, I say let the pirates plunder. I won't participate, but until you stop screwing me, don't expect help.

[p_b]

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4278/piracyuk4.jpg

So theft is better than piracy. Because with theft, the produces gets at least one sale.... Hooray, time for a career change! :)

[Sabz5150]

So theft is better than piracy. Because with theft, the produces gets at least one sale.... Hooray, time for a career change! :)

Then where'd the original pirated material come from?