RetroN5: Hands on first look [Archive] - Page 12

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kamakazi5

06-15-2014, 11:36 PM

I got my original unit a few days before official launch from a local shop but the Genesis and NES slots only read about 1 out of 10 games even after cleaning. Luckily they still had another unit which worked much better but it still seems finicky with NES carts. Also, the Genesis slot is absolutely killer to get a game in and out. I hope it holds up but I'm honestly not too confident.

Very happy overall and it's funny people mentioning the the random skipping forward. I was playing Silk-Worm on the NES and after about 20 minutes I realized I was actually pressing the fast forward shortcut on the controller by accident. The default I believe is A + B + Up which is used in a lot of games. I changed it to something else and don't have that issue now. Not saying this is what's happening to SMB 3 but I figure someone might read this and realize they are having the same issue with the fast forward shortcut.

Tanooki

06-15-2014, 11:52 PM

It's possible with the skipping I suppose. I saw warnings of the default being pretty stupid so when I got mine I reset the short cuts for the NES and SNES game pad to use a combination of the select button and a d-pad direction as it was too easy to tweak stuff having it set off the start button. I think I have it as up+select to speed up, down+select for the menu pop, and then left and right are load and save states I think and I didn't map screen shot as I didn't see a point.

Tanooki

06-17-2014, 10:38 PM

Another firmware should be coming sooner than later. I got a test build last night and it fixes up various mapper issues, adds a camerica mapper 232, and cleans up the bugs with CNROM games so Arkanoid and DK Classics among others work. The mapper fix was hardware level too, not just individual mappers which is nice. SMS compatibility is fixed up, Sonic & Knuckles will have lock on support and a total rewrite improving the cheat system. After the build I got, the mirroring of the cockpit over the view area on top gun was repaired too. Not sure what all else will happen before it hits the internet, but the next release is slick.

I also did learn that GBA save (copy to cart) support is still incomplete, seems EEPROM writing is a tricky subject so if you play one o those, don't expect to move the save back to the game which sucks as I was hoping to screw around with DOOM among a couple others on the TV.

Leo_A

06-17-2014, 10:52 PM

Why can't you still play it on your Retron 5 even though you might not be able to upload the save file to it when you're done?

Satoshi_Matrix

06-18-2014, 01:10 AM

adds a camerica mapper 232, and cleans up the bugs with CNROM games so Arkanoid and DK Classics among others work. The mapper fix was hardware level too, not just individual mappers which is nice. SMS compatibility is fixed up, Sonic & Knuckles will have lock on support and a total rewrite improving the cheat system.

Okay, so the Quattro mapper. Got it.
There were issues with CN ROM games? Any other examples? I have a ton of CNROM games for NES and Famicom. That's a very early mapper.
Fix is hardware level? What does that mean, exactly when talking about an emulation based machine?
SMS compatibility issues? What are the issues?
Sonic & Knuckles + Sonic 3 is GREATLY appreciated. This needed to happen.
"Total rewrite of the cheat system" please explain.

Leo_A

06-18-2014, 03:23 AM

I asked a couple of questions over at AtariAge but didn't have any luck. Is 3 & 4 person multiplayer supported for Codemasters J cart releases (I realize that the onboard controller ports wouldn't be active)?

And what did the save situation end up being? Can you use the saves the Retron 5 creates with other emulators and vice versa? Can you at least copy save data, including save states, to a different Retron 5?

Tanooki

06-18-2014, 09:51 AM

LeoA - You can, on the retron5. The problem is GBA is a portable, and it's more likely someone will want to take their games in their pocket still and in the case of EEPROM games your save game is stuck on the R5 until it is fixed but other than that, yeah it's playable.

Satoshi...
I don't have other examples of the CNROM, and yes I'm aware of like at least 50 games that use it checking bootgod website registry on it. I do know that Gradius and Spy Hunter use it too, but they worked alright anyway.

I didn't ask any questions about the Sega stuff, I can't test it anyway but I guess some games weren't working with it, and I do agree about the lock-on too.

The cheat re-write I can't explain well as I didn't get into detail over it. Basically the current system wasn't desired by the coders but hyperkin made them put out what they had to have something out and it wasn't setup well. I guess the new setup has some differences, but I don't know what. Maybe it's more game genie like where you can make your own instead of just using presets, that would be my guess as the existing system does work.

That hardware level fix basically I guess they found some glitch in their NES coding that was causing it to tick off specific games with particular coding/wiring? to them and it was a mix of things between the CNROM stuff, and also other stuff like the mapper that Alien 3 and Return of the Joker use as they're fixed.

Currently they're holding back a new build for the public on the device for a bit as they need to do a massive bug testing routine as they rewrote the NES low level access code and they're not going to shove out something like that blindly where it could have a regression causing a working game to break. Once it is out though it will boost compatibility and detection routines again on carts, perhaps due to the new routines homebrew and repro(bootlegs) may pick up even more than before. I guess they have a list of known problem games from owners and their own work and this whole reworking fixes the games.

They also after I pointed out that Arkanoid 1 and 2 use the vaus controller, found out it existed, guess they had no idea, so they're going to get a hold of one and add compatibility for it to the R5 which is great, same with the power pad too he mentioned. They said any device they can acquire they could add to the device so I guess if someone wants to send them the miracle piano that would be a choice. ;) The coders basically at this point since most stuff is very stable isn't going to be shoving out daily updates as they'd rather do a massive one that really is worth the users while once it has been coded, well tested, and then released properly so it's not rushed. I can't fault them for that.

06-18-2014, 11:55 AM

Anyone get their unit from amazon yet?

I preordered mine months ago and no word yet....

Satoshi_Matrix

06-18-2014, 01:43 PM

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one still waiting in limbo for my friggin RetroN5.

I didn't preorder through amazon (I couldn't, I'm Canadian and it wasn't available through amazon.ca) but I did pre-order it through a Canadian distributor.

When I inquired about it, I was told it would be the beginning of July at the earliest. If I don't hear anything further in another week or so, I'm going to inquire again.

Tanooki

06-19-2014, 11:52 AM

I got another test build and this one should end up being more or less the final list of things to go live when it happens on top of I guess what was said about the nes hardware level coding fixes.

Cheat system completely re-done
Improved SNES cartridge detection logic (resolving HiROM/LoROM related errors)
Better handling of Genesis cartridge saves
SMS compatibility fixes
Fixed a bug affecting a few NES CNROM cartridges
Sonic & Knuckles "lock-on" fully supported
Added support for NES mapper 232
Added support for SMS controllers
Added support for save access on NES MMC6 cartridges (Startropics)
Fixed NES "Top Gun"
Fixed GBA Dragon Ball Z games
Modified the default button mapping between the wireless controller and GB/GBA/NES to match the layout of the original controllers
Fixed bug preventing console region setting working correctly with some games

Since the cheat system is overhauled there's an added link for the new database files too so that'll get swapped whenever this is public.

06-19-2014, 06:53 PM

This arrived today, haven't updated anything so it's whatever stock firmware it shipped with.

Every cart on every system is listed as "unknown cart", out of about 30 games tested so far on every cart slot. GBA games take an extremely long time to dump compared to other systems.

The Famicom port doesn't recognize anything, by anything I mean it doesn't even detect a cartridge is inserted. Grabbed 10 random Famicom carts and the system didn't even tell I had anything inserted. The best thing I ever managed to get was a cart slot power error "have you inserted a SNES cart backwards?" message on a Power Rangers game. At this point I'm convinced the system is destined to be returned to Hyperkin or Newegg for warranty work. Has anyone else's system acted like this? I don't see a firmware update doing anything to remedy this particular problem.

Unlicensed MD games without the TMSS routine work, but unlicensed games with copy protection don't work, so I guess their emulator doesn't have these routines programmed in.

The manual doesn't explicitly state it so are they saying it's OK to hotswap carts? I don't see how this could be a healthy practice especially for games with battery backup.

stardust4ever

06-19-2014, 08:58 PM

Satoshi_Matrix

06-19-2014, 09:49 PM

Your comments are as exhausting as ever, stardust.

He's running the 1.0 firmware, which is severely outdated now. I suspect that his famicom games are simply dirty, but even if there is a problem, thats a problem with his one Retron5. Assuming the carts aren't at fault, once he gets it exchanged, the problems will go away.

Gameguy

06-20-2014, 01:09 AM

He's running the 1.0 firmware, which is severely outdated now.
So the system was released unfinished? Just trying to confirm the overall situation with this thing as a whole.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-20-2014, 01:56 AM

I'm not interested in defending Hyperkin, merely the truth. The accusation that the Retron5 was released "unfinished" is unfairly harsh and misleading.

For one thing the Retron5 is still not out most places - the June 6 "launch" only applied to some parts of the United States. Most of the US as well as the entire rest of the world continues to wait for the thing to be released, myself included.

Secondly, the Retron5 is an emulation machine. Hyperkin's lofty goal of 100% compatibility is only achievable through testing thousands upon thousands of game cartridges, and while their beta testers did have access to a number of games, it would have been impossible for Hyperkin to ever get the system up to 100% compatibility through beta testers alone. It needed to be released to the general public for users to report incompatible games and submit the feedback to the system for the firmware updates.

Almost right away after its extremely limited launch Hyperkin began to offer firmware updates that fixed problems. So far they have released several such updates and this is one of the things I've praised them for. Don't believe Stardust's lies about the firmware updates "breaking" other things; there is no truth to that whatsoever.

So here's the current situation:

The Retron5 is still not out in most places.
The Retron5 ships at firmware 1.0, which users can update manually through an SD card. This is required if you want any fixes to the 1.0's problems.
Stardust is being childish will his doom and gloom remarks. We all get it - he doesn't like the Retron5. Beyond that everything he's said is vapid or flat out untrue.

Gameguy

06-20-2014, 02:41 AM

I just find it weird when you blame the consumer for playing the system brand new out of the box, as it was shipped from the factory, and coming across various compatibility problems. Why is this the consumer's fault?

With those current gen flash carts like the DS ones, I fully understand the need for firmware updates. As new games are released, the firmware gets updated to improve compatibility. With this Retron5 system, all of the games are long released and there aren't going to be any more releases(excluding possible homebrew releases). It's not sounding like it's just the obscure unheard of games having problems, it's with several popular titles too.

The Retron5 is still not out in most places.
The Retron5 ships at firmware 1.0, which users can update manually through an SD card. This is required if you want any fixes to the 1.0's problems.
Just responding quickly to these points.

-After several delays and a late release, Retron5 is still not widely available for purchase.
-The few Retron5 systems available ship with buggy firmware and users must update the firmware immediately after receiving the console to make it suitably usable. Just like with games requiring Day 1 patches to be reliably playable without game breaking errors.

It's not the worst company out there, but it's not like people shouldn't be allowed to be mad at them for their mistakes. If a major console manufacturer released a console like this I'm sure people would be complaining just as much if not more.

Leo_A

06-20-2014, 03:03 AM

At this point. my concern is more with quality control than the state of their firmware or ability to produce and ship systems out in a timely fashion. I don't have any concrete facts to back this up, but broken systems that aren't working anywhere close to correctly out of the box seem to be regularly reported at an alarming rate.

Obviously these were never going to be the best constructed piece of electronics in the world. But they seem worse off than we've accustomed to with clones and such. And at these prices, that's particularly disappointing. I hope they get things settled down in the coming months so ordering one won't feel like a crapshoot.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-20-2014, 09:03 AM

I just find it weird when you blame the consumer for playing the system brand new out of the box, as it was shipped from the factory, and coming across various compatibility problems. Why is this the consumer's fault?

Who said it was anyone's "fault"? What I was saying is that there were many games unavailable to both Hyperkin and their tester network. All the delays in the world would not have helped address these, and the Retron5 was and still is heavily delayed as it is.

Only through error reports submitted by the general consumer who does have access can Hyperkin's tech support find out about the problem and eventually address it. Theres no other way Hyperkin could have done this. Shipping the unit with initial compatibility issues was inevitable and not something you can blame Hyperkin for. I'll explain more in detail in your next point.

With those current gen flash carts like the DS ones... [but] with this Retron5 system, all of the games are long released and there aren't going to be any more releases(excluding possible homebrew releases). It's not sounding like it's just the obscure unheard of games having problems, it's with several popular titles too.

What you're failing to take into account is the sheer complexity of properly emulating everything for these systems/games given that the Retron5 is a ROM dumper, not pure software. It still has to interact with pin configurations and interpret the hundreds of various mappers used on the different systems.

Even when talking about "popular" games, there are issues when the way their boards work differ from the norm, such as HiROM boards on SNES/SFC. These issues need to be reported with the RetroN5's error diagnostics before they can be fixed, and many such problems are indeed being fixed. Complaining about the 1.0 firmware is rather stupid.

Just responding quickly to these points.

-After several delays and a late release, Retron5 is still not widely available for purchase.
-The few Retron5 systems available ship with buggy firmware and users must update the firmware immediately after receiving the console to make it suitably usable. Just like with games requiring Day 1 patches to be reliably playable without game breaking errors.

It's not the worst company out there, but it's not like people shouldn't be allowed to be mad at them for their mistakes. If a major console manufacturer released a console like this I'm sure people would be complaining just as much if not more.

That is correct, yes. Hyperkin is a small company and small companies make more blunders than large ones, and as their communities are smaller there's less outcry when things go awry. You keep saying things like "buggy firmware" but it was unavoidable there would be initial problems and it was understood right from the first time Hyperkin released details that the Retron5 would be emulation based that the end user would have to update the firmware to fix problems and gain compatibility. This is exactly what excited me and many others to begin with - the whole fact that unlike any existing clone, Hyperkin's problems were all fixable through firmware updates, and since early June, there have already been several.

My final word on the matter is that if you aren't prepared to go through the process of updating the system's firmware on a fairly regular basis just as you would a modern console, then the RetroN5 isn't for you.

At this point. my concern is more with quality control than the state of their firmware or ability to produce and ship systems out in a timely fashion. I don't have any concrete facts to back this up, but broken systems that aren't working anywhere close to correctly out of the box seem to be regularly reported at an alarming rate.

Obviously these were never going to be the best constructed piece of electronics in the world. But they seem worse off than we've accustomed to with clones and such. And at these prices, that's particularly disappointing. I hope they get things settled down in the coming months so ordering one won't feel like a crapshoot.

Leo, are you at all familiar with Hyperkin's previous releases? from the Retron3 to the Supaboy, Hyperkin has a history of a fairly high failure rate in their products. While not strictly speaking Hyperkin's fault since they aren't the direct manufacturer, you need to come to expect this kind of thing from them. It sucks, but that's reality.

This is also my chief concern with the RetroN5, and why I'm waiting to buy the system I preordered rather than get an American who lives in the south and would have access to the limited stock that currently exists to mail me one. If there ends up being a problem with the one I preordered, I'll be able to much more easily get it replaced locally rather than shipping it internationally with all that additional cost and waiting.

Tanooki

06-20-2014, 10:08 AM

Well Satoshi got that well covered. I'd like to hit on a few things.

As to the 'alarming rate' of broken systems is not entirely true, well not black and white. We know I have the system and work with the tech despite the 12hour difference as much as I can which keeps me up later than I'd like some nights, and we talk, not just about the system bugs but in general. I brought up the complaining online, and from what has been gathered so far, it's a very small percentage of current owners who have truly defective units or controllers. Yes there are a few, but it's in the single digit like percentage of stuff, it's no xbox 360 clusterf... by any means. Yes there have been some plastics in the controllers that went bad legit and not by being abusive, and yes some people have had bad pins. But what are bad pins? To them it would be stuff that grips so hard that it will bend or snap off the teeth in a slot, it's rare.

The issue is a lot of the bitching about this system is from impatient, ignorant, and/or lazy people with the system. The impatient types see the firm grip on the carts as it being broken, but and I can attest to this having stuffed carts in and out of the various slots quite a bit so far, they with use find a new happy center where they hold the game, but not with kung fu grip. The Genesis is the worst of the slots with it, the boards are slightly thicker than the Nintendo carts but the gap is the same so it gets toothy. Next, the ignorance and laziness factor. I guess I can use AZ to point a convenient finger. He did not update the application software from .20 to .22, nor has it been upgraded on the firmware from 1.0 to 1.31. His list of complaints, with those fixes, that entire list changes to something very different and more positive and that's the laziness. Couple this with fools who don't read instructions and just toss games into it, they probably won't realize you can upgrade the firmware/application software so it will be a perpetual .20/1.0 setup which works as awful if not worse than the shittiest of Yobos.

The thing is people have to realize something and satoshi hit it. They're a small company, small resources, and this was/is a HUGE project for them as they're not just importing the same LOCKED system on a chip junk. Think for a moment just how many games between regions exist for the NES/Famicom, SNES/SFC, MD/Genesis+Powerbase w/SMS, GB, GBC, and GBA. Ten thousand? Is it really reasonable to assume they could buy let alone test every single game? No. The system in a way is like your modern console of this/last generation with internal storage and being as tested as possible, and then leaving it up to the owners with different configurations of stuff to work out things. I'm suffering for it having lost again last night my FF6A save where I got up to gau/veldt but it is a fun ride seeing what gets fixed on these betas. The biggest gripe really at this rate once the new release drops would be the NES, not even the Famicom but really the NES and all the wonky mappers and hacks done even on the games in the day that they have to figure out now with trial and error. Last evening the tech had some time and implemented a mapper auto-detection routine for 0-4 to be intended as a fallback when their database fails and he belives it will help with repro(bootleg) and homebrew detection.

Since I did out AZ as an example sorry. I want to let you know that through v1.31 of the firmware they realized there were multiple detection errors with games. It was both a general reading error against the internal database, but with the 8bit stuff you also have a power issue of some sorts where the handshake the software would send to dump the cart wasn't right so it would not detect or misread games. This has been fixed and further fixes keep coming. Also about the slow load on the GBA, that's a fix that's coming. They developed a routine to be added once the critical issues are solved where it will fetch data enough to boot the game itself and while it's going through it's copyright/splash/pre-title screen stuff it will load the rest of the ROM in the background. This will be for anything other than the NES since those are small and will supposedly cut the load times down a lot. I for one can't wait as I like using the thing to play GBA games.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-20-2014, 02:07 PM

Also about the slow load on the GBA, that's a fix that's coming. They developed a routine to be added once the critical issues are solved where it will fetch data enough to boot the game itself and while it's going through it's copyright/splash/pre-title screen stuff it will load the rest of the ROM in the background. This will be for anything other than the NES since those are small and will supposedly cut the load times down a lot. I for one can't wait as I like using the thing to play GBA games.

I'm glad to hear that, but I wonder how that will apply universally, since many GBA games have copyright/splash/pre-title screen stuff that is either extremely short or can be skipped through. Golden Sun, Pokemon, even Mother 3, and that's a 256 meg cart.

06-20-2014, 04:32 PM

.20/1.0 setup which works as awful if not worse than the shittiest of Yobos.

Notice in my post I never mentioned any opinions on the unit, or Hyperkin, or anything else, I basically stated facts and asked questions.

After going through the convoluted, needlessly complicated update process and downloading a 160mb update along with a smaller 4mb update, some of the problems did go away. Carts across the board are detected by name much better and the Famicom slot does actually work for some games. I found out that the unit not only doesn't even detect multi-game FC carts (no compatibility expected anyway) but also the majority of pirated single game carts and all (that I own) legitimate unlicensed carts. Does this affect the vast majority of owners? Nope, only a fraction of a fraction, but I hadn't saw this mentioned anywhere and it leaves me with a reason to hang on to a cheap $10 Famiclone system.

Some Mark III games appear to work with the appropriate converter but I didn't test a lot. The hotswapping issue along with the death-grip MD slot left me fearing for my converter, which would be much harder to replace than the R5.

As far as a bugged release... well things blatantly mentioned on the outside packaging (built-in list of preprogrammed cheats, Famicom cart compatibility) aren't actually in the box. Nowhere does it have an asterisk saying "Internet download required", you just assume it has what's included. I can see a lot of users never bothering with the update process at all or being either lost/discouraged by the update process.

Tanooki

06-20-2014, 06:06 PM

Oh come on. It's hardly convoluted and complicated. Is it really that hard to put an SD card into the system, then into a PC to get the update file, to then slide it into the system and have it Auto Update. Life must be hard being spoiled by a modern console with wifi built it. Sheesh.

The 1.31 update is aging, there is another more complete piece I noted coming that has a lot better detection routines so it will improve. The slot is just firm because they didn't make it a little wider as Sega boards are thicker than Nintendo, but it will soften with time. I agree it's bad that a lot of people won't think for themselves and consider these early units crap, but once they get another run of them out months later with the better firmware and application versions on board it will be better for it.

Pirate carts don't work, they may work later, but they were actively trying to support piracy out of the box. The techs think otherwise and while they won't allow copier units, famiclones (I have a few too) just will or won't work until they can work on it more and I suspect some just won't at all like multicarts since it will likely dump nothing or just the file system without cart specific patches and there's far too many to bother. My famiclone of Moon Crystal works, but SMB2j, Bio Miracle Bokutte Upa and Crisis Force(which I have a legit replacement for coming) do not. I've got a couple dozen famicom games, most of them are wonky Konami VRC and Sunsoft mapper games and they're fine so the slot isn't the issue as it wouldn't make sense if some ran and others don't.

PreZZ

06-20-2014, 06:20 PM

I saw a RetroN5 today at my local store. I asked for the price and I didnt expect it to be this high! 230$ with taxes?!? 170$ more and you get a ps4 or xbone. I just dont get the "emulator working with cartridge" thing, I mean i can play emulators for free on my phone, tablet, pc and ouya so this thing just doesnt seem right for me.

stardust4ever

06-20-2014, 06:22 PM

Leo_A

06-21-2014, 12:20 AM

Leo, are you at all familiar with Hyperkin's previous releases? from the Retron3 to the Supaboy, Hyperkin has a history of a fairly high failure rate in their products. While not strictly speaking Hyperkin's fault since they aren't the direct manufacturer, you need to come to expect this kind of thing from them. It sucks, but that's reality.

Yeah, I'm familiar with their reputation. But it's particularly disappointing that it's still letting them down so much with a much more expensive product which has seen lengthy delays. Especially one that shows so much promise and is delivering on much of what we've hoped for. They've really surprised me on the software side of things and to my shock, look committed to further improvements.

But sadly, build quality appears to be a growing concern as more of these reach their customers.

06-21-2014, 03:25 AM

Tanooki

06-21-2014, 10:18 PM

AZ: I've got a test build for what probably will be 1.4 whenever it drops. (See post 835 for detais)

GBA and SMS cheats, they exist, I have them. 1.4 brings an entirely retooled cheat setup, and the beta I got had a 2nd link with a zip file with 5 XML files in it, and GBA and SMS is in there along with NES, SNES and Genesis. They actually jacked it from a few sources, one being gamehacking.org which is admitted to as I asked.

Save files -- Your SMS issue could probably be fixed, the new release specifically has a blanket statement about 'SMS compatibility fixes' so keep an eye out. GBA saves are bugged on my build. GBA uses SRAM, FLASH, and EEPROM depending on the game. SRM possibly has regressed into corrupting save files upon placing the game in the unit, or it did this to me as I put the game in while it was booting up(animated screen). FLASH save is fine. EEPROM is fine to download, but you can't upload back to the cart. NES and SNES have no problems nor should Genesis on this build. I think on 1.31 dragon warrior iv had a save issue where it wasn't reading them from the cart (didn't on mine but it is there) and zelda did that too but not zelda 2.

System itself. I think the process is about as easy as you could get short of not having to prove you had a legit unit by uploading a stupid file, it could have just easily had people put the file on a SD card and go with that, but to add Wifi so it was idiot button/process free would have raised the price higher. So basically you did what I did on accident, ran the firmware update before the application update and had a temporary brick? It was annoying but at least if you put the small .22 update it automatically sends it over and reboots so it works again.

You're being dramatic you know? If it's that hard for you to walk up the steps, perhaps exercising is in order or bring the system upstairs? :) Keep in mind as these roll out eventually the newer units will have the completed firmware and application software on them as they won't keep shipping the base software. It's just a weird moment now where some have it, and a lot don't due to the soft launch.

Thing is since I agreed on this thing to help beta test it I'm getting it far worse than most. I've had multiple save games erased in the name of testing and have put a few more test revisions on my system as well for better or worse. Thankfully my system and laptop which is anchored to my work desk at 10ft apart, but still I realize in time probably a month or two it will all be ironed out and smooth sailing and when it's there those updates will be put to the systems before they hit retail so even those who have no brain of their own or are too lazy will be able to enjoy the cheat system and the upgrades to the software.

stardust4ever

06-22-2014, 01:11 AM

Two things I noticed:

Cheats

As mentioned cheats are a preprogrammed list that must be downloaded from Hyperkin's website, they do not come on the device out of the box and you can't just enter your own. Currently only supports ROM codes and the code list looks to be lifted straight out of a Galoob handbook because there are several references to flipping the FX switch on/off and many codes that are modifiers (levels, weapons, etc) that have a XX variable you change for different effects. Onscreen it just say "Weapon modifier" and you of course can't change the variable to anything. Code list file names must be named a particular way and can only be stored on the SD card, cannot be copied to internal memory. Apparently there is GBA and SMS code support but Hyperkin has not provided any code lists for those systems so the feature currently unavailable for those two systems.

Saves

Battery backup saves are saved as standard .SAV files and given a name depending on the header of the game. You can use saves from emulators and other places but you must change the filename to the exact same name generated by the Retron5 for the original .SAV file in order to load it. The internal file browser will let you copy/delete files from both SD card and internal memory but it will not let you rename files.

None of my SMS games with SRAM are recognized as even having such by the console (tried 4), so it does not give me an option of importing/exporting saves with the carts. Additionally when the game starts none of my existing save files are there. I get to find out tomorrow after I unhook my 32x if the console has actually wiped out my original saves from the carts.

The one GBA EEPROM game I had dumped the save file to system memory OK and I was able to play with it. I did not attempt to rewrite the updated file to the cart.

I bought this thing for the same purpose as the my Retro Duo, RetroN3, and other orphan hardware; something to dick around with for a while then shove in the closet. In no fashion will it replace my original consoles and if I feel the need to play anything on my HDTV I have a dozen other options available all of which are faster, cheaper, and more convenient than the RetroN5.

Even though I bought one this unit isn't aimed at me. Hyperkin wants to sell as many units to as many people as possible. As mentioned many times before it's in a weird spot, too pricey and feature laden/complicated for casual retro users yet too expensive and limited for hardcore retro addicts. When I look at this from the point of view from someone (example: my brothers) who grew up playing these games and may want to replay some old games they have in their attic, they're not going to be jumping through all these hoops. Chances are, in real life outside of internet forums and fan subculture, someone wanting to play a 25 year old game they had a child and hasn't already done so through the thousands of other ways available probably isn't the most tech savvy person. This process isn't brain surgery but could have been easier for someone like that.

So complicated? Ehh, depends on your level of tech experience. Convoluted? Absolutely. First, I put an SD card in and pick "update software" from the menu. Go to the Hyperkin website and find out I didn't have to do that because first I have to download a 160mb update file before I can do the regular updates. Apparently this huge file isn't a security concern like the small 4mb update because not only do they have a direct link to it on their website but they encourage end users to torrent this very file. Download it, plug the SD card in and install it, after the install the system is a useless paperweight. You cannot do anything, perform any functions other than power on/off, once you do the big update, because it's now asking you for the small update. (Never was that mentioned anywhere prior to installation).

Now I have to go and do the update request again on the system since the software has changed after my last request. Walk upstairs to the computer, go to Hyperkin's website, and first I have to attach this 1kb update request file and do a Captcha form before I can download the update. Apparently having open, direct access to this tiny update or having the ability for other websites or individuals to host this update is a big security concern requiring all these steps. Heaven forbid I just directly download the file from somewhere. Download the file, update the system again, and it's up and running.

Oh wait, the built in code list is a separate download and isn't included with either the small or large system updates. Back upstairs again.

Again, this is a minor inconvenience to me and it certainly didn't hurt my brain trying to follow the steps, but call the situation for what it is. How many users are going to do this? Is the target audience of Hyperkin and Retrobit, along with every other two bit clone maker, really going to do all this? Not only once, but on a regular basis? I will, sure, but what of the guy that never does? From the stock "out of the box" experience advertised on the box and features listed inside the manual, are these consistent with what it actually does straight away? I'd like to hear input from people in that vein.

AZ: I've got a test build for what probably will be 1.4 whenever it drops. (See post 835 for detais)

GBA and SMS cheats, they exist, I have them. 1.4 brings an entirely retooled cheat setup, and the beta I got had a 2nd link with a zip file with 5 XML files in it, and GBA and SMS is in there along with NES, SNES and Genesis. They actually jacked it from a few sources, one being gamehacking.org which is admitted to as I asked.

Save files -- Your SMS issue could probably be fixed, the new release specifically has a blanket statement about 'SMS compatibility fixes' so keep an eye out. GBA saves are bugged on my build. GBA uses SRAM, FLASH, and EEPROM depending on the game. SRM possibly has regressed into corrupting save files upon placing the game in the unit, or it did this to me as I put the game in while it was booting up(animated screen). FLASH save is fine. EEPROM is fine to download, but you can't upload back to the cart. NES and SNES have no problems nor should Genesis on this build. I think on 1.31 dragon warrior iv had a save issue where it wasn't reading them from the cart (didn't on mine but it is there) and zelda did that too but not zelda 2.

System itself. I think the process is about as easy as you could get short of not having to prove you had a legit unit by uploading a stupid file, it could have just easily had people put the file on a SD card and go with that, but to add Wifi so it was idiot button/process free would have raised the price higher. So basically you did what I did on accident, ran the firmware update before the application update and had a temporary brick? It was annoying but at least if you put the small .22 update it automatically sends it over and reboots so it works again.

You're being dramatic you know? If it's that hard for you to walk up the steps, perhaps exercising is in order or bring the system upstairs? :) Keep in mind as these roll out eventually the newer units will have the completed firmware and application software on them as they won't keep shipping the base software. It's just a weird moment now where some have it, and a lot don't due to the soft launch.

Thing is since I agreed on this thing to help beta test it I'm getting it far worse than most. I've had multiple save games erased in the name of testing and have put a few more test revisions on my system as well for better or worse. Thankfully my system and laptop which is anchored to my work desk at 10ft apart, but still I realize in time probably a month or two it will all be ironed out and smooth sailing and when it's there those updates will be put to the systems before they hit retail so even those who have no brain of their own or are too lazy will be able to enjoy the cheat system and the upgrades to the software.

Grabs for the :popcorn:

This is comedy gold guys. Keep it coming!

Trollollollo...

Gatucaman

06-22-2014, 01:38 AM

Grabs for the :popcorn:

This is comedy gold guys. Keep it coming!

Trollollollo...

Like you've done better.

Leo_A

06-22-2014, 02:03 AM

Just put him on ignore like many of us already have.

Tron 2.0

06-22-2014, 02:35 AM

Game Sack review of the retron 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y13r4LCbARw

stardust4ever

06-22-2014, 02:39 AM

Like you've done better.For the record, I meant comedy gold as in watching the thing fail, and realizing I dodged a bullet by cancelling my preorder.
Just put him on ignore like many of us already have.But then you wouldn't be able to fully appreciate my twisted sense of humour...:ass:

Atarileaf

06-22-2014, 08:34 AM

For the record, I meant comedy gold as in watching the thing fail, and realizing I dodged a bullet by cancelling my preorder.But then you wouldn't be able to fully appreciate my twisted sense of humour...:ass:

You know what else is comedy gold? Someone buying an Atari 7800 just to play a compilation cart of glitched out games. That's hilarious. Have any popcorn to eat while watching that gem unfold?

TheChristoph

06-22-2014, 10:34 AM

I must be slightly biased toward Hyperkin. I don't know why; I've never bought anything from them before and I have no skin in the game. I guess I'd just rather buy something from a small gaming company that's trying to keep retro gaming alive. But after every single review, Satoshi was right. It really seems like it's better to buy an Ouya and sideload some ROMs onto it.

My use case for this would be to stay in the living room hooked up to my HDTV, while my real consoles, carts, and everdrives live in the game room. Unless/Until someone hacks this thing and lets it run ROMs off the SD storage, this device is just not for me or anyone else who doesn't keep an HDTV in their game room.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-22-2014, 02:06 PM

I said the Ouya is the better option for some people, not overall. It's certainly got more going for it than the RetroN5, but Hyperkin does continue to improve.

pacmanhat

06-22-2014, 04:02 PM

I feel like I must be doing something wrong, because I can't get my Retron 5 to update. It appears I first need to download the system software from here (http://retron5.in/node/2) and install that first, but I get a message saying "Installation failed: 1002" when I try to install it. I've tried this with multiple SD cards, as well as on multiple Retrons, and it just doesn't want to take. What could I be missing here?

Tanooki

06-22-2014, 05:12 PM

Are you getting a system specific request for update file off the R5 first? I can't think of anything else. You get the request that's put on the SD. Then upload the request from that SD to their website. Update to system downloads, you put that on the SD, put SD into the R5 and it does its thing on its own.

Perhaps you're trying to run a firmware update it can't take because you're on application versions earlier than 0.22?

You know I heard the new in fashion with trolls are columbian neckties. Very trendy and chic. >:]

pacmanhat

06-22-2014, 05:46 PM

treismac

06-22-2014, 06:33 PM

Unless/Until someone hacks this thing and lets it run ROMs off the SD storage, this device is just not for me or anyone else who doesn't keep an HDTV in their game room.

I'm with you on this one. I am fairly sure I read on this thread somewhere that Hyperkin has taken even further steps with their updates to make playing cart-free roms even harder to accomplish, which is a shame. As a retro gamer who enjoys both physical hardware and emulation, the RetroN 5 could have been a dream come true if it played cart-free roms along with carts and had its originally planned AV output. I can exist without Duck Hunt, but it can hardly be considered living. :P

stardust4ever

06-22-2014, 07:45 PM

You know what else is comedy gold? Someone buying an Atari 7800 just to play a compilation cart of glitched out games. That's hilarious. Have any popcorn to eat while watching that gem unfold?
Ouch! http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/kick-in-the-balls.gif

Satoshi_Matrix

06-22-2014, 07:53 PM

annnd even I have now added stardust to my blocklist. hurray!

I'm with you on this one. I am fairly sure I read on this thread somewhere that Hyperkin has taken even further steps with their updates to make playing cart-free roms even harder to accomplish, which is a shame. As a retro gamer who enjoys both physical hardware and emulation, the RetroN 5 could have been a dream come true if it played cart-free roms along with carts and had its originally planned AV output. I can exist without Duck Hunt, but it can hardly be considered living. :P

I don't see this argument at all. While sure, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of Hyperkin adding direct ROM support, I think that them doing so would directly diminish the importance of the one thing the Retron5 has overt he Ouya - its ability to play physical carts. If you want a machine that hooks up to your tv and runs retro games through ROMs, then buy an Ouya. Among other things, playing ROMs directly is what the Ouya does and a primary reason for buying one.

Also, the Ouya is $99 and the Retron5 *wheneverthehellthethingisactuallyfrigginreleased* is $140.

The cost to buy both is not out of the reach for most gamers with a job. Minus expenses, that's one paycheck. Why not simply buy both? I mean, I kinda see people who get into camps of PS4 or Xbone, as the machines are $450 and $500. but with the microconsoles, I own an Ouya, I'll be buying a Retron5, and this fall I'll also buy a Vita TV. It's not going to be one or the other.

Tanooki

06-22-2014, 08:24 PM

If I'm reading this right, I have to update to 0.2.2 first before I can do the update that requires getting the request from the system. That first update is what's failing at the moment, if that makes sense.

Is this what you're doing?
http://retron5.in

Step 1: Download system update (from that website I copied the link to)
Step 2: Copy the .img file update to a SD card
Step 3: Place SD cardi into the R5, follow prompts on screen for update.

After that and it reboots/updates itself, you then can do what I said before for the firmware to get it up to 1.31. There's instructions with steps and pics at that link. If that's failing and your SD card isn't junk or too advanced (no sure if it reads SDXC cards or just SD/SDHC) you got an issue.

Satoshi, agreed, and that vita tv is kind of tempting. I had the handheld but they released so little it was a waste so I sold it before the price tanked on the used market. Since the games are essentially PS3 quality I could see grabbing Uncharted and Hotshots again, but as for the other 3 I had probably not but there are other titles worth while now that aren't more third person and first person shooter console port funk. I probably won't, but I might, can't say.

stardust4ever

06-22-2014, 08:27 PM

annnd even I have now added stardust to my blocklist. hurray!Man, everyone here hates my guts. :bawling:

Later, dudes...:moon:

PS - Unsubscribed.

treismac

06-22-2014, 09:09 PM

While sure, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of Hyperkin adding direct ROM support, I think that them doing so would directly diminish the importance of the one thing the Retron5 has overt he Ouya - its ability to play physical carts.

Naw. Direct rom support wouldn't "diminish" the ability to play carts. "Supplement" is the term you are looking for.

I don't see this argument at all.

Here's the argument (again): As I've stated before, carts and roms are the means of achieving the end of playing games. Any time a system can play more games, that is a plus for a gamer who wants to play games. If a gamer only wants to power on carts, then, yeah, direct rom support is useless.

If you want a machine that hooks up to your tv and runs retro games through ROMs, then buy an Ouya. Among other things, playing ROMs directly is what the Ouya does and a primary reason for buying one.

I own an Ouya, and I like it quite a bit. For me it's not an either/or situation, it's how much bang for my buck am I getting. For an Android game system not to have direct rom support, the potential bang is significantly fizzled.

With all of this said, regardless if I ever purchase a RetroN 5 or not, I want the system to be a big success. I'd love to believe all of my old systems will hold up decades from now, but there is a practical reason I hoard spare systems- nothing lasts forever. A healthy clone market is a good thing for retro gamers, and if the RetroN 5 raises the standard to where other clones are trying to top it in the future, that's a damn good thing.

pacmanhat

06-22-2014, 10:26 PM

Is this what you're doing?
http://retron5.in

Step 1: Download system update (from that website I copied the link to)
Step 2: Copy the .img file update to a SD card
Step 3: Place SD cardi into the R5, follow prompts on screen for update.

After that and it reboots/updates itself, you then can do what I said before for the firmware to get it up to 1.31. There's instructions with steps and pics at that link. If that's failing and your SD card isn't junk or too advanced (no sure if it reads SDXC cards or just SD/SDHC) you got an issue.

After 'Step 3' is where it fails. It detects the card and the upgrade, but fails upon attempting to install it.

I may have found another way around this, though. I happened upon this page (http://retron5.in/node/4) on the Retron site which has a download for a factory reset image that's up to date. However, I can't get the download to extract, so this may be another dead end.

badinsults

06-22-2014, 11:47 PM

Gameguy

06-23-2014, 01:59 AM

Who said it was anyone's "fault"?
Well Az was giving his first hand experience with the system, and this is what you said.

He's running the 1.0 firmware, which is severely outdated now. I suspect that his famicom games are simply dirty, but even if there is a problem, thats a problem with his one Retron5. Assuming the carts aren't at fault, once he gets it exchanged, the problems will go away.
You were saying it's not the consoles' fault, it's his fault for not updating the firmware. And every Famicom game he owns must be dirty(which would be his fault), there is only a very slight chance it's a problem with the actual system. And if it was his system and he has to exchange it, this inconvenience shouldn't matter at all.

I wouldn't just dismiss his personal experiences with the console, especially since he actually has one in his possession and you don't. As far as I can tell from your posts you're still waiting for yours to arrive. Right now he has more hands on experience with this than you do.

Now I'm waiting to hear how it goes with pacmanhat trying to update his system.

Here's the argument (again): As I've stated before, carts and roms are the means of achieving the end of playing games. Any time a system can play more games, that is a plus for a gamer who wants to play games. If a gamer only wants to power on carts, then, yeah, direct rom support is useless.
Even if they just wanted it easy to just quickly play the cart games they own, they still have to take the time to update the firmware regularly. I'm not sure how using actual ROMs would somehow be more time consuming than regularly updating it.

With all of this said, regardless if I ever purchase a RetroN 5 or not, I want the system to be a big success. I'd love to believe all of my old systems will hold up decades from now, but there is a practical reason I hoard spare systems- nothing lasts forever. A healthy clone market is a good thing for retro gamers, and if the RetroN 5 raises the standard to where other clones are trying to top it in the future, that's a damn good thing.
I don't really see this as helping extend the playability of games for the future. It's just an emulation box, it doesn't require the games to play but just to back up ROM images from. You can play ROMs on PCs with emulators already, for future preservation and playability that's what will keep games from fading into obscurity. Plus fan translations and prototypes are playable as well on PCs, it's not like anyone can play those on this Retron5 console unless they somehow have a physical cartridge of them. I also would miss Duck Hunt and other light gun games too much.

If anything could keep consoles alive longer, someone making suitable replacement chips and parts would help a lot more. If clones become more accepted, there would be less of a reason for replacement parts to still be made for original consoles. New power supplies or video cables for existing consoles, etc. Personally I do have some spare extra consoles as well, but I also have a small stockpile of VHS/SVHS VCRs. There are some VHS machines still being made and sold, but I'd rather stockpile the older ones as the new ones are poor quality crap. Video heads wear out with use so I'm more concerned with these wearing out than consoles wearing out, though I suspect the cart connectors will eventually wear out at some point too.

I have a question. Obviously the Retron5 works by downloading the ROM image of the game off the cart, then playing it on an emulator. If so, is there a way to save the game onto the SD card for backup purposes? If so, I am totally getting one of these things.
If you could actually use this to back up carts I could see more of a use for this. I'd like to know if this is possible too. Right now the only benefit I see with this console at all is having HDMI support for newer TVs.

Personally, I would rather spend some money on an older laptop and just emulate ROMs that way. It could even be hooked up to a TV too. It should be cheaper than the Retron5 as well if you shop around. Maybe I just have a different mindset with this than most people. It's the same way most people are happy with cheap MP3 players for convenience while others care about having better hardware for better audio quality. Only I don't see this new console as being all that convenient with the need for regular updates, or cheaper than alternatives, nevermind the other issues some people are having with this. Just seeing how any point of criticism at all is dismissed entirely is getting annoying so I felt I should post again.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-23-2014, 03:17 AM

I have a question. Obviously the Retron5 works by downloading the ROM image of the game off the cart, then playing it on an emulator. If so, is there a way to save the game onto the SD card for backup purposes? If so, I am totally getting one of these things.

No. Hyperkin has stated they aren't doing this, and have actively put measures in place to prevent that. The entire point of the Retron5 is to play the original, physical releases. Even flash carts don't work and will likely never work with the Retron5.

As I've recommended many times, if you want an affordable emulation machine that runs ROMs, buy an Ouya. The Ouya is capable of emulating everything the Retron5 can with almost identical features, plus other systems like PC Engine, C64, PS1, N64, Neo-Geo, Neo-Geo Pocket, and so on. The open nature of the Ouya also means you can use pretty much any controller you want from the stock pad, a wired PS3 or 360 controller, or even OEM retro Atari/Nintendo/Sega controller via an adapter. Personally I use an OEM Super Nintendo controller to run all of the emulators on Ouya save for N64.

Of course, there are also hundreds of games developed for Ouya available as well, many of which are both completely awesome and completely free.

In addition to that, the Ouya also is a pretty powerful media box with XBMC and VLC.

badinsults

06-24-2014, 02:01 AM

If the system can't be used as a backup unit, I don't really see the appeal. Obviously, this unit is just an emulation box, but if it was a replacement for say a Retrode or CopyNES, this thing would be highly worthwhile.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-24-2014, 03:37 AM

Gameguy

06-24-2014, 03:42 AM

If the system can't be used as a backup unit, I don't really see the appeal.
Same. It's almost like it's sole appeal is just towards those interested in hardware variants, at least from the people in this thread who are still interested in it. These can be interesting, but I'd be more interested in looking at bootleg consoles than just third party stuff.

I can't see why anyone would recommend this to anyone else over other alternatives. It's like if someone was asking what to use to record TV shows off the TV and was told to use a Betamax instead of a DVD Recorder or a PVR. Why a Betamax? Because it has better video quality than a VHS recorder. Same logic with this Retron5.

Tanooki

06-24-2014, 09:10 AM

If anyone has one and is interested I've been given the OK to share a test build of this. They have a new auto detection routine for mapper 0-4 which should pick up a lot of homebrew and pirate/bootleg/"repro" thief carts. It will pop up as an unknown cart but should work if it detects it right.

My pirate crisis force now works and with a few glitches retrozone DK Original Edition runs as well. Other reports are coming other repro games like those redos yearly of Tecmo Superbow work among others, but the multicarts are failing. They're looking to add bootlegs into the registry of stuff that runs.

Just post in here if you have those kind of games and a system and I'll get you the link.

Here's the current change log on it -->
Changes include:
Added system for auto-detecting configuration of NES carts for certain mappers (0-4), which will significantly improve compatibility with various repros
Cheat system completely re-done
Improved SNES cartridge detection logic (resolving HiROM/LoROM related errors)
Better handling of Genesis cartridge saves
SMS compatibility fixes
Fixed a bug affecting a few NES CNROM cartridges
Sonic & Knuckles "lock-on" fully supported
Added support for NES mapper 232
Added support for SMS controllers
Added support for save access on NES MMC6 cartridges (Startropics)
Fixed NES "Top Gun"
Fixed GBA Dragon Ball Z games
Modified the default button mapping between the wireless controller and GB/GBA/NES to match the layout of the original controllers
Fixed bug preventing console region setting working correctly with some games

I don't get the stupid insults and questioning of why this thing exists. If someone is too shallow or dense to get the purpose that's fine, but the attacks just get old. You either use it like a clone system, but its an emulator inside instead with all the perks you get from it, or you don't. It's not a piracy box that runs ROMs or copier carts with ROMs so it's not an option for crooks. It's really not that hard to understand if it is for you or not based on that, or if you have no use for improved audio, visuals, save states, snapshots, and other things it does.

Gameguy

06-24-2014, 02:13 PM

It's not a piracy box that runs ROMs or copier carts with ROMs so it's not an option for crooks. It's really not that hard to understand if it is for you or not based on that, or if you have no use for improved audio, visuals, save states, snapshots, and other things it does.

If anyone has one and is interested I've been given the OK to share a test build of this. They have a new auto detection routine for mapper 0-4 which should pick up a lot of homebrew and pirate/bootleg/"repro" thief carts. It will pop up as an unknown cart but should work if it detects it right.

My pirate crisis force now works and with a few glitches retrozone DK Original Edition runs as well. Other reports are coming other repro games like those redos yearly of Tecmo Superbow work among others, but the multicarts are failing. They're looking to add bootlegs into the registry of stuff that runs.
Do you read your own posts? They're not allowing ROMs to be played from an SD card or for the unit to be used to back up ROMs from actual carts, supposedly to prevent piracy. Yet they're working on improving compatibility with pirated games. Does this not seem stupid? As for the other improvements you've mentioned, every emulator does all those things as well so it's not a big deal.

Maybe someone will eventually hack it and write custom firmware to allow standard ROMs and allow it to back up carts to ROMs. Then it will be more useful compared to the alternatives. It's the same with MP3 players that require MP3s to be transferred from actual CDs using proprietary software to convert them to proprietary MP3 files. Update to custom firmware and that annoyance is gone. There can still be hope for this clone hardware, just not in it's current state. I get it's purpose just fine, to do the same things other existing hardware can do but right now it's just not as well.

You and Satoshi_Matrix seem to prop up the Retron5 and dismiss any legitimate criticism or discussion any chance you get. Are you both paid by Hyperkin to do this or are you both just delusional? Or just condescending and elitist?

Satoshi_Matrix

06-24-2014, 03:24 PM

Do you read your own posts? They're not allowing ROMs to be played from an SD card or for the unit to be used to back up ROMs from actual carts, supposedly to prevent piracy. Yet they're working on improving compatibility with pirated games.

I think there's a degree of separation between a bootleg copy of a rare Famicom game and outright flash carts and direct ROM support. It isn't contradictory at all.

As for the other improvements you've mentioned, every emulator does all those things as well so it's not a big deal.

The argument that "every emulator does this stuff so it's no big deal" doesn't hold water because those emulators rely on software for the game inputs. The RetroN5 relies on hardware. There's quite a large difference in how that actually works and is thus far more complex. The feats Hyperkin is making with the RetroN5 are impressive, and if they keep up the pace the RetroN5 will eventually be the best clone console on the market.

Maybe someone will eventually hack it and write custom firmware to allow standard ROMs and allow it to back up carts to ROMs.

Yeah I'm sure this will happen, but I sincerely hope this doesn't happen any time soon. Not because I'm against the idea, but the moment this happens is the moment there will start to be a battle with the custom firmware of piracy vs the official firmware Hyperkin makes to continue to better the compatibility.

If it happens too soon, then RetrOn5 owners will be forced to choose between direct ROM support from the hackers or better compatibility with real carts. I'm fine with custom firmware as I do infact agree that direct ROM support would be a nice little bonus feature, but I'm not at all interested in it at the expense of actual cart support. As I've said repeatedly, if direct ROM support is more important than cart support, then buy an Ouya.

You and Satoshi_Matrix seem to prop up the Retron5 and dismiss any legitimate criticism or discussion any chance you get. Are you both paid by Hyperkin to do this or are you both just delusional? Or just condescending and elitist?

None of the above by a long shot. I'm not paid by Hyperkin and in fact I'm not even a business partner with them as I am Retro-Bit, Retro-Link and others. The purchase of any Hyperkin product I cover comes out of my own pocket.

Hyperkin sure gets my ire up. Their bullshit delays are unacceptable. It may be August when I finally get the system I goddamn preordered, which supposedly launched "June 6". if you go back and look, I've also been rather critical of the price increase, and in fact have more been a champion of the Ouya rather than the RetroN5.

The only criticisms I dismiss of the Retron5 are invalid ones, such as the claim that the Retron5 is shit because it doesn't work with everything out of the box and Hyperkin should have never launched the system until it was 100% compatible with everything. As I've explained, this was an impossible goal for any company to achieve as there are tens of thousands of games that unlike emulation, have unique quarks when you deal with the original carts. I'm also accepting of this fact because hey look - Hyperkin is actively working to improve the Retron5 all the time.

And this is nothing exclusive to Hyperkin. I read all sorts of forum posts all over the place badmouthing the Ouya and articles written by apparently professional journalists who claim things like the Ouya is "pointless" and "already dead". These comments also are invalid and wrong and need correcting.

My aim isn't to defend of condemn Hyperkin. It's merely to defend the truth.

mercuryshadow09

06-24-2014, 04:19 PM

You and Satoshi_Matrix seem to prop up the Retron5 and dismiss any legitimate criticism or discussion any chance you get. Are you both paid by Hyperkin to do this or are you both just delusional? Or just condescending and elitist?

Tread lightly friend, I got verbally eviscerated for asking the same question, blocked and treated like a troll, and most certainly don't ask if you are talking to teenagers!

Ozzy_98

06-24-2014, 04:22 PM

For me it's interesting, but it would serve no role. While I just got back into collecting about 6 months ago (When I got a new house and had room to bust out the old collection), I've remained in emulation for the last 14 years (Dalnet, represent!). After building Mame cabs and HTPCs with emulators built into them more than a few times, and tweaking emulators and using console -> PC adapters, there is nothing the retroN does for me I can't already do. Heck I had saved states on my snes long before I owned a PC, thank you game saver! And since I always used 3rd party controllers or "different" 1st party controllers on systems if I had a chance (nes advantage, yay!), that's not an advantage to me. I have emulators for the majority of my game play, and the collection for the nostalgia.

However, setting up an emulator so it works on your T, looks good, with controllers from the original system, can be a bit of work for most people. Doing it for 3-4 different emulators can be a real pain for many people, and when they see a goodnes torrent of roms, they can be overwhelming (Da faq? What don't any of these [b] roms work!) And if you want to have a frontend that has all your roms, you're looking at a LOT of work (Or you can be cheap and torrent hyperspin and look just like everyone else)

This console shouldn't replace owning the real consoles if you're a collector. If you want to play games that you own, it's great, saves you like 5 power adapters. If you want to play any games out there, like all of them, you'd really need to look at emulation. And don't think because it's hardware, the Retron5 has some magic advantage, I've seen people play that card. There's no special ASICs on this that I've heard of, so it's just a PC or close to it. I even highly doubt they wrote their emulator code from scratch. And it is behind the curve vs emulators at least Windows based ones (Android emulators seem to have taken a few steps back...). Rewind abilities would be GREAT, and I've not heard how well Top Gear 3000 plays, assuming they have support for it.

Over all, it's neat, and for some people it'd be great, but it's nothing I've not been able to do for 8+ years. It's not an emulation box, it's a clone system. If you have no use for a retroN 3, the 5 only adds better video and saved states for you (Ok a few other tweaks).

Satoshi_Matrix

06-24-2014, 08:38 PM

It's not an emulation box, it's a clone system.

The Retron5 is really in a new category of it's own. It is an emulation box, but relies on hardware to achieve the emulation rather than software. It's not a clone system in the traditional sense either, because it doesn't rely on reverse engineered hardware at all. It's really in this new space where it is an emulation machine unquestionably, but it also requires the original carts, and is unique. If/when it gets hacked to support ROMs directly from the SD card, the Retron5 will no longer be unique.

Tanooki

06-24-2014, 11:34 PM

You and Satoshi_Matrix seem to prop up the Retron5 and dismiss any legitimate criticism or discussion any chance you get. Are you both paid by Hyperkin to do this or are you both just delusional? Or just condescending and elitist?

No I'm not paid, but you appear to be a pretty big prick with a chip on your shoulder about it. Satoshi laid it out well so I don't need to do a re-run on that. I'm just fed up with the misinformation, that's it. And to call it basically useless because it isn't wide open to be used as a ROM dumping tool for piracy and open to run whatever roms through SD card or the USB port in the back is just dumb. If they wanted to make the console version of the R4 for the DS they could have, and then would have been promptly been getting abused by the NOA lawyer pool.

Look I'm sure it will get busted open and sooner than later, but that's for hackers to do, not hyperkin as they open themselves up for an attack. I could care less if it is cracked or not. It's an emulator that uses hardware(carts) and does something useful and fun with it, so what's the problem really? All I want is the truth, that's it, and I don't defend their practices in the delays or not buying their own coding team enough games to make it better out of the box for 1.0 as the stuff that version wont' run is highly unacceptable. Damn thing ate my FF6A save 3 times which I'm not happy about.

Ozzy I'm curious about TG3000 too and I've been on the look out for it. I grabbed a Micro Machine cart over the weekend to see if that would work, initially it didn't, but an updated firmware I've got has it going with just very minor graphics issues but not on the gameplay parts where you drive.

Gameguy

06-25-2014, 12:20 AM

I think there's a degree of separation between a bootleg copy of a rare Famicom game and outright flash carts and direct ROM support. It isn't contradictory at all.
What difference? Either they want to cut down on piracy or they don't, and just because something can run flash carts or direct ROMs doesn't mean that those options will be used for piracy. Maybe it's just easier to use an SD card full of ROMs than having to sort through all of your old games, clean them, and transfer them individually. I mean once you update the firmware often enough to make it compatible with all the games you own. Unless you don't have many games, which would make me question why someone would spend $140 to get one.

The argument that "every emulator does this stuff so it's no big deal" doesn't hold water because those emulators rely on software for the game inputs. The RetroN5 relies on hardware. There's quite a large difference in how that actually works and is thus far more complex. The feats Hyperkin is making with the RetroN5 are impressive, and if they keep up the pace the RetroN5 will eventually be the best clone console on the market.
What's the difference with the end result? The reason the hardware inputs exist is to get the ROM transferred from the actual game cartridge, once that's transferred it's all software that runs it. Either way the games won't be fully accurate compared to using original legit hardware, what's really the difference? What's so beneficial about using original cartridges over ROMs in an emulation device?

Yeah I'm sure this will happen, but I sincerely hope this doesn't happen any time soon. Not because I'm against the idea, but the moment this happens is the moment there will start to be a battle with the custom firmware of piracy vs the official firmware Hyperkin makes to continue to better the compatibility.

If it happens too soon, then RetrOn5 owners will be forced to choose between direct ROM support from the hackers or better compatibility with real carts. I'm fine with custom firmware as I do infact agree that direct ROM support would be a nice little bonus feature, but I'm not at all interested in it at the expense of actual cart support. As I've said repeatedly, if direct ROM support is more important than cart support, then buy an Ouya.
It's not even about piracy, just ease of use. I'm sure if custom firmware becomes available most people will switch over to it. Those who don't either aren't comfortable with using unofficial software or aren't familiar with how this console actually works.

The only criticisms I dismiss of the Retron5 are invalid ones, such as the claim that the Retron5 is shit because it doesn't work with everything out of the box and Hyperkin should have never launched the system until it was 100% compatible with everything. As I've explained, this was an impossible goal for any company to achieve as there are tens of thousands of games that unlike emulation, have unique quarks when you deal with the original carts. I'm also accepting of this fact because hey look - Hyperkin is actively working to improve the Retron5 all the time.
They advertised this as eventually being compatible with 100% of all games. I know not to expect full compatibility right away because there's always bugs that can slip through, but I would have expected it to at least be compatible with most games at the time of release. Couldn't they at least get a collector with a large collection try this out beforehand for testing? I'm also not saying it's shit on it's own, but compared to what else is available I just don't see a real benefit to owning this above other alternatives, especially at $140.

A bit off topic to this quote, but I would take your impressions on this much better if you actually used one first hand. You can't be sure it works as well as advertised until you have one and have experienced everything that comes with it, including the firmware updates that are apparently tied up with some type of DRM which complicates the process. I know it's not your fault for not having one yet, you're trying your best to get yours.

Also just looking at the reviews from Amazon, the reviews are mixed but most of them are just one star. These reviews are complaining about hardware quality like defective controllers or entirely dying within a few hours of use.

The Retron5 is really in a new category of it's own. It is an emulation box, but relies on hardware to achieve the emulation rather than software. It's not a clone system in the traditional sense either, because it doesn't rely on reverse engineered hardware at all. It's really in this new space where it is an emulation machine unquestionably, but it also requires the original carts, and is unique. If/when it gets hacked to support ROMs directly from the SD card, the Retron5 will no longer be unique.
As I understand it, the hardware part is what's needed to recognize and dump the games from the cartridge. The actual playing of the games is all software emulation. All forms of software emulation is run on some type of hardware so I can't see how else this is unique.

Tread lightly friend, I got verbally eviscerated for asking the same question, blocked and treated like a troll, and most certainly don't ask if you are talking to teenagers!
Yeah, I'll try my best to stay as polite as possible. After seeing stardust4ever getting chased off the site because of this thread I decided to participate in it again.

Man, everyone here hates my guts. :bawling:

Later, dudes...:moon:

PS - Unsubscribed.
I wonder why posters are leaving Digital Press?

I get why he took things a bit too far, the way he was treated with his serious comments and his opinion of the Retron5 beforehand. Like how Tanooki responded to my post, I must be too shallow or dense to understand it, or maybe impatient, ignorant, and/or lazy as he replied to someone else. That must be why I don't feel I need to buy it at $140 US. At least Satoshi_Matrix seems to be responding to posts respectfully now.

GarrettCRW

06-25-2014, 01:08 AM

The Retron5 is an emulation box, but it isn't a piracy box. There is no way to play anything you don't legitimately own on the Retron5. Multi-carts and Flash carts do not operate on the Retron5, and there is no way to play ROMs directly either.

Then why the hell does the system download part/all of a game's ROM when you decide to play it? There's really no need for it, even as an emulation box. You can be certain that the eventual custom firmware will add Retrode-like abilities and support for playing games off the SD slot. As it stands, the only things I'm curious about that haven't been addressed are FDS compatibility, support for Famicom expansion audio, and support for the FM synth chip in Master System mode.

mercuryshadow09

06-25-2014, 01:25 AM

I wonder why posters are leaving Digital Press?

Because of the way they get treated by regular members, if Satohi_Matrix wants to get all butt hurt over a sarcastic question that's fine but why be a dick about it and make accusations of attack?

Ed Oscuro

06-25-2014, 02:54 AM

The Retron 5 topic hasn't been too active at Shmups lately, but the last I saw (it has been a while, I'll give you that!) the delays were unavoidable and related to customs. Not sure I'd ding them on that one.

Playing from an SD card would be interesting (though I'd rather have the option to back up ROMs TO an SD card, if it was only one or the other - obviously both functions would be even better from a consumer standpoint), but while I'm usually finding myself anti-DRM and the like, I don't think Hyperkin had any obligation to support a feature with this use. It's not original to the hardware, could earn the ire of some industry groups, and is just something else to worry about in the program. I hope that other groups / manufacturers will implement something more flexible.

The more interesting question, in my mind, is why they have opted for such a seemingly ridiculous and convoluted firmware update scheme. I suppose it makes sense that they want to prevent their program from leaking out to the 'net to be shipped by pirates making cheap clones of the Retron (lol), and it really doesn't seem like a deal breaker to me. But it does highlight the fragile nature of this kind of box, both on the hardware and software side. It highlights that the emulators aren't perfect yet, and it also highlights that if Hyperkin goes under or stops supporting the device, third party support might not be straightforward (unless that just means people will share firmwares).

My problems with the Retron 5 are mostly untouchable by well-intentioned design tweaks or firmware updates. The controller design seems really interesting - but we'll have to see some tests on how fast that wireless perform. Using cartridge slots to play original media seems great - but if they don't update save data to the game cartridge, you'll be tethered to your Retron (and no, a Hyperkin-branded Nomad or similar wouldn't fix this, unless they're going to allow you to move those saves around - at that point they might as well cave to GameGuy's suggestion of playing games from SD card). The design is appropriately funky - but apparently a system flat-out died during one routine demo. What's this, a raft of cheap trash floating over on a pile of lashed-together barrels from the Orient? Why, could it be..?

06-25-2014, 03:01 AM

My apologies for a long, rambling post.

The things I've listed were problems on the RetroN5. Like every other clone that's released the first thing people do is start trying out a thousand different carts to find out what works and what doesn't. Everything that I listed that was either a problem or a shortcoming was only stated because I had never read of anyone confirming that info when discussing this system. Me writing about time spent with games that work fine or system aspects that perform as advertised is useless, boring, empty information that anyone automatically assumes anyway. When I grab 10 carts off my shelf and decide to play them I know exactly what I'll be getting on the original systems. I know they'll work, I know my saves will work, I know how they sound and act. With this (as all clones) it's a complete crapshoot and if something is fucked you're left scratching your head. If you don't have another real system to try it on, then is it my cart? Is my RetroN5 actually defective? Or is it a simple software issue across the board that can be duplicated by others? That's why I mention those things.

There are a few issues that bother me overall.

Like mentioned by others, I doubt Hyperkin had someone write new emulators from scratch, so they have to be based on something preexisting. They didn't invent their own cheat code database. They didn't invent their own header database, it's obviously pulled from somewhere else. I am not a noob when it comes to cart dumping, I own dozens of flavors of copiers and have released over 2 dozen undumped games over the past few years to the public. Unless you've got a legitimate one of a kind undumped game or there is some type of error, you're own dumped ROM image will be recognized by any ROM editing program even if it's a counterfeit cart of a commercial release.

I've got a few GBA bootlegs and all of them were labeled as "unknown cart". I can dump these same games with my own equipment, the title headers are still there, and with an auditing tool they will be recognized as what they actually are and labeled correctly. Sometimes they will be labeled as a pirate release, or as a hacked issue so EEPROM or flash save games are changed to be SRAM, but they're still there. Seems like you'd have to intentionally remove these headers from your database? These same games still dump and still work on my RetroN5, so they've accomplished nothing in fighting the good fight against piracy, only inconvenienced me because I can't use cheat codes and my gavesaves will be all mislabeled and janky. It's a small issue, but an issue.

The wonky SRAM issue is a real legitimate complaint. It's extremely shitty that the SRAM issues exist on legit, real carts. The backup save issue, that you could transfer your saves to the internal memory and vice versa was a big selling point. Yet there are so many issues, even after the current updates, that will just completely erase the saves on your original carts. Nowhere in any documentation by Hyperkin or in the system itself is it stated that the save thing on some systems or games is currently a mess and that there's a good chance your save will be deleted or corrupted. No warnings that the software is still buggy and will make you lose all your precious save games. That's pretty shitty any way you look at it. If the feature is currently fucked up and you know it is then why not gray that option out? Or why not give a warning message to proceed at your own caution? They make a warning label pop up when trying to play a game is listed as "unknown cart" saying that it may not work correctly, and you can choose to proceed or not. Why not do this? Advertising that something works when it actually (and I hesitate to use this term) damages your property is a pretty shit thing, even if it's fixed down the road. Fixing it on the next update won't bring the dozen or so saves I've completely lost without any warning that it might happen.

I get that counterfeit cart compatibility is a non-issue for Hyperkin, along with support for extremely rare mappers used by tons of unlicensed FC/NES games. Few people own these and few people care, I understand. But from a hardware perspective I don't understand why the machine doesn't even detect that these carts are inserted. I get that these games not supported by the software anyway, but why doesn't the machine even recognize the cart is physically inserted? Again, not a complaint or whine because I neither expected them to work nor was it ever implied they would, just a head scratcher from a hardware tinkerer perspective.

This isn't really a complaint against the system but more just a wishful thinking for an (AFAIK) extremely easy to implement feature. The unit ships with almost 2 gigs of on board memory. An SD cart is required to be inserted at all times if you plan on using cheat codes. Game save SRAM, savestates, and snapshots are teeny tiny file sizes so 2 gigs is flat out overkill, and even if memory constraints are tight you can direct the system to save these items directly to the SD card. I don't care that you can't use it to dump carts, I have plenty of hardware to do that. But with that much HD space what is their logic or what could be the hardware limitation behind having the ROM image delete itself once you remove the cart? They could still require the carts to be inserted to play, but maybe keep your last 5 games stored in memory so you don't have to do the dumping process every time. Hell, even if it was just as temporary as losing it when the unit powers off it would be better than what it is. Again, not a complaint just wishful thinking.

The more interesting question, in my mind, is why they have opted for such a seemingly ridiculous and convoluted firmware update scheme.

I mentioned before, the huge system-affecting update is open game for anyone to host and openly encouraged by Hyperkin for end users to share, but the tiny updates that tweak small things are security concerns? Even if those tiny updates are somehow tied to your specific machine somehow (as stated in their manual) it's obvious the huge system-wide OS update isn't, which (to me) says all one would have to do if they had hacked firmware would be to somehow roll it into that type of update and you're good to go.

Gameguy

06-25-2014, 03:33 AM

This isn't really a complaint against the system but more just a wishful thinking for an (AFAIK) extremely easy to implement feature. The unit ships with almost 2 gigs of on board memory. An SD cart is required to be inserted at all times if you plan on using cheat codes. Game save SRAM, savestates, and snapshots are teeny tiny file sizes so 2 gigs is flat out overkill, and even if memory constraints are tight you can direct the system to save these items directly to the SD card. I don't care that you can't use it to dump carts, I have plenty of hardware to do that. But with that much HD space what is their logic or what could be the hardware limitation behind having the ROM image delete itself once you remove the cart? They could still require the carts to be inserted to play, but maybe keep your last 5 games stored in memory so you don't have to do the dumping process every time. Hell, even if it was just as temporary as losing it when the unit powers off it would be better than what it is. Again, not a complaint just wishful thinking.
First, I'm glad to see you're still sticking around this thread :) . Second, is this seriously true? I assumed the games would be dumped to an internal memory where they could always be played easily at any time, once they were initially dumped to the console. If they're actually being deleted once the cartridge is removed, I really don't see how this is convenient at all. This doesn't help my opinion of the console.

Ed Oscuro

06-25-2014, 03:39 AM

Thanks for that detailed breakdown of the issues Az - a lot better than my courtside analysis.

So actually that means that a review that I read at the beginning of the month was right - the system is actually deleting game saves off original carts. That's not just inconvenient - it's awful.

Leo_A

06-25-2014, 04:17 AM

Then why the hell does the system download part/all of a game's ROM when you decide to play it? There's really no need for it, even as an emulation box.

That has puzzled me since it first became known when this thread was started. Seems like they're just making their job harder since they have to emulate things like the Super FX processor where as with a conventional setup, they'd only have to emulate each console itself.

A few seemed to think that the fact that it was emulation was the answer for why they've gone down this route, but I don't see the connection on why because it's emulation based, continuously communicating with the cartridge like the actual hardware somehow isn't practical.

I don't think anyone in the community really knows why they went down this route.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-25-2014, 04:19 AM

Gamerguy, you're confused about so many things. Let me address all that you said.

What difference? Either they want to cut down on piracy or they don't.

As Tanooki reported, the latest firmware update auto-detects mappers 0-4. That's NROM, SxROM [MMC1] UNROM, CNROM, and TxROM [MMC3/6]. Those five mappers account for over 90% of the total NES and Famicom library. Having full support for those mappers in 100% of all situations will allow homebrew games that don't have detectable rom headers to function properly. That is Hyperkin's aim - to properly support NES homebrew. Through their various fixes this will also allow at least some pirates to also work, but that is not their aim. It's just a side effect of the improvements.

and just because something can run flash carts or direct ROMs doesn't mean that those options will be used for piracy. Maybe it's just easier to use an SD card full of ROMs than having to sort through all of your old games, clean them, and transfer them individually. I mean once you update the firmware often enough to make it compatible with all the games you own. Unless you don't have many games, which would make me question why someone would spend $140 to get one.

Yup, and that's the legal loophole that allows flashcarts and modchips to be sold in the first place. I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's be honest here - most people who buy flashcarts and modchips use them as easy access tools for piracy, myself included. Everything you say is true, flashcarts are indeed an easier, more convenient way finding games you want to play than looking through shelves filled with old carts, but that's not the primary draw for most people when those flashcarts mean you can play games like Summer Carnival '92 and Little Samson without burning a hole in your wallet.

If you don't have a large game collection of physical carts, buying the RetroN5 would be rather silly, unless you plan to then actively start to collect. People buy $20 Famiclones like the Neo-Fami to start NES collections, so there might be somebody that buys a Retron5 to start collecting games for every format it can run. I don't really understand that guy, but hey, it probably does happen. I would again say to someone who wants to go digital rather than physical to buy an Ouya instead of the Retron5.

What's the difference with the end result? The reason the hardware inputs exist is to get the ROM transferred from the actual game cartridge, once that's transferred it's all software that runs it. Either way the games won't be fully accurate compared to using original legit hardware, what's really the difference? What's so beneficial about using original cartridges over ROMs in an emulation device?

It's the phenomenon of retro gamer psychosis that tells them phsycial media = better experience than pure emulation. Why the retro gamer says "Virtual Console? I'd rather play on my CRT and original system and cart". It isn't rational, but that doesn't matter at all. Even being self aware of the psychosis doesn't diminish it's power. The Retron5 also has the secondary benefit of making collections of carts relevant in a world filled with things like the Nintendo Virtual Console/e-shop and the Ouya. You might conclude "that's stupid", but you'd be be totally missing the point.

It's not even about piracy, just ease of use. I'm sure if custom firmware becomes available most people will switch over to it. Those who don't either aren't comfortable with using unofficial software or aren't familiar with how this console actually works.

You...must not have properly read my post. The reason Hyperkin isn't doing that is because it's all about piracy. I agree with you that if the Retron5 had direct rom support that would aid the ease of use of the system and would be a nice little bonus feature. But no, you're completely wrong to think that only people who wouldn't do CFW are those who prefer to keep things legit or those who don't know how anything works. I specifically cited myself as an example of someone who has an intimate knowledge of the Retron5 yet wouldn't want CFW for a long time, and even gave you a clear reason why. I'm not alone in that either.

They advertised this as eventually being compatible with 100% of all games.
No, they didn't. They merely said 100% compatibility was their goal and that firmware updates were the means of achieving that.

Couldn't they at least get a collector with a large collection try this out beforehand for testing?
They did. Hyperkin had a rather large network of beta testers, complete with their own private forum. But even so, they required public feedback to grow the beta tester field.

I'm also not saying it's shit on it's own, but compared to what else is available I just don't see a real benefit to owning this above other alternatives, especially at $140.

Compared to what alternatives? The Ouya? The attachment to the physical carts. The original hardware? HDMI and savestates and the ability to use non-native controllers like the Genesis controller on the GBA.

A bit off topic to this quote, but I would take your impressions on this much better if you actually used one first hand. You can't be sure it works as well as advertised until you have one and have experienced everything that comes with it, including the firmware updates that are apparently tied up with some type of DRM which complicates the process. I know it's not your fault for not having one yet, you're trying your best to get yours.

This is why I've been careful not to make any comments that would require an opinion based on personal assessment, such as quality of the controller and things like that. Everything I've said about the RetroN5 is based on documented facts, not opinions of others or my own.

Also just looking at the reviews from Amazon, the reviews are mixed but most of them are just one star. These reviews are complaining about hardware quality like defective controllers or entirely dying within a few hours of use.

LOL amazon reviews. How many of those people do you really think are qualified to review anything? I bought a chainsaw recently and looked at amazon reviews of found a number of people who attempted to put the chain on backwards and injuries themselves, blaming their stupidity on the chainsaw itself and telling others not to buy it.

Just like Hyperkin's facebook page, I'm sure the majority of the negative comments on amazon are written by impatient or ignorant people. I'm not saying that all reviews of the Retron5 are inaccurate, but you need to take amazon reviews with a giant grain of salt.

As I understand it, the hardware part is what's needed to recognize and dump the games from the cartridge. The actual playing of the games is all software emulation. All forms of software emulation is run on some type of hardware so I can't see how else this is unique.

That's right, but then there's that retro gamer psychosis again.

Yeah, I'll try my best to stay as polite as possible. After seeing stardust4ever getting chased off the site because of this thread I decided to participate in it again.

Stardust is an idiot who we all grew tired of with his neverending exhausting comments of stupidity. For months I've taken the time to answer his comments politely even when others clearly grew tired of him, but his latest posts about the RetroN5 were nothing more than lies to slander the thing, and that's what I won't tolerate and the reason I finally decided to block his idiotic comments from even appearing.

If we "chased" him off DP, then good riddance, but let's be clear: if he did leave, he left on his own accord and the only one to blame for him being "chased" from here is himself. In the end he turned out to be no better than MyTurnToPlay, one of the biggest trolls I've ever seen on any forum.

Then why the hell does the system download part/all of a game's ROM when you decide to play it? There's really no need for it, even as an emulation box. You can be certain that the eventual custom firmware will add Retrode-like abilities and support for playing games off the SD slot. As it stands, the only things I'm curious about that haven't been addressed are FDS compatibility, support for Famicom expansion audio, and support for the FM synth chip in Master System mode.

The RetroN5 dumps the cartridge to ROM before running it to allow it access to savestates, virtual sram and non-native controller inputs. That is the need for it, as you put it.

FDS support does not work. It results in error 01 - no disk detected. This is because the dumped FDS bios does not interact with the FDS itself as it would on the real hardware.

The Retron5 does fully support all Famicom expansion audio.
The Retron5 does fully support all YM2413 Sega Mark III and Master System games programmed with FM audio. It does not, however, allow those games to boot with their PSG sound at all. They will always be in FM on the Retron5, at least for now, pending further firmware changes.

Leo_A

06-25-2014, 04:56 AM

I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's be honest here - most people who buy flashcarts and modchips use them as easy access tools for piracy, myself included.

For the Nintendo and Sega consoles, but homebrew development is certainly a major reason behind their development and popularity on the popular pre-crash consoles and the Atari 7800 (Which for anyone that loves the Golden Age of arcade gaming, I definitely recommend giving this system a second look someday thanks to the likes of PacManPlus).

No, they didn't. They merely said 100% compatibility was their goal and that firmware updates were the means of achieving that.

Almost wish they had never said that. It instantly was interpreted as a promise of 100% compatibility by quite a few people.

Stardust is an idiot who we all grew tired of with his neverending exhausting comments of stupidity. For months I've taken the time to answer his comments politely even when others clearly grew tired of him, but his latest posts about the RetroN5 were nothing more than lies to slander the thing, and that's what I won't tolerate and the reason I finally decided to block his idiotic comments from even appearing.

If we "chased" him off DP, then good riddance, but let's be clear: if he did leave, he left on his own accord and the only one to blame for him being "chased" from here is himself. In the end he turned out to be no better than MyTurnToPlay, one of the biggest trolls I've ever seen on any forum.

His trolling in the AtariAge Retron 5 thread has provided similar comments as around here such as this one from the other day.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/209669-retron-4-console-for-snesnesgenny-etc/?p=3014732

He definitely has created this problem himself.

The RetroN5 dumps the cartridge to ROM before running it to allow it access to savestates, virtual sram and non-native controller inputs. That is the need for it, as you put it.

Perhaps with save states, but definitily not controller inputs. There's no significance on where the game data is residing. The rom dump isn't being modified on the fly by the Retron 5 when using something like a Genesis pad to control a NES game. It's essentially doing via the emulator program what you've done via hardware with your SuperNes SuperPad modification to use Y and B for NES games.

There's absolutely no importance here that the game data has been dumped to SD rather than being read directly.

Tanooki

06-25-2014, 11:26 AM

Like how Tanooki responded to my post, I must be too shallow or dense to understand it, or maybe impatient, ignorant, and/or lazy as he replied to someone else. That must be why I don't feel I need to buy it at $140 US. At least Satoshi_Matrix seems to be responding to posts respectfully now.

I respond that way now because being a broken record player gets old. I'm also fed up with modern entitlement and instant gratification culture as well and I keep seeing all these halftruths, some lies, mixed with legit complaints thrown in and it just repeatedly stirs the pot so I got over being nice.

Garrett: I asked about the famicom expansion audio, and I was told that it is coded in there and works. I just don't have a copy of CV3(JP) to try it. I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap copy of it since I already have the US release.

Yes the system erases the game in memory once the cart is removed and the game is turned off. This was proven using a sneaky trick with a Honeybee(only works with it) where someone locked a Famicom game into one, into the NES cart it went, loaded 100%, then the game (not the honeybee) was removed and it still worked. The system stores save states, hot saves it does when you go the menu, and it saves screen shots you take, and then any save games applicable carts make and that I think is it.

Just a little something else to put out there. Another firmware public release is pending anytime now. I got yet another build overnight, and he says overall 99% of games will boot up and play on the system via CRC check or their new mapper0-4 auto detection routine. The saving problem on the GBA has been squashed except for the write from retron back to cart on EEPROM saves only. They're also working now on adding pirate famicom/nes multicarts, he added my Supervision 115in1 overnight, it works, glitchy, as it's a WIP but it is up and 100% detected(not listed as unknown.) Also some of my bootlegs are picking up now too like my famiclone of Crisis Force, and also the retrozone DK Original Edition picks up and plays now too.

They never once stated they were eventually going to be 100% running it all, they were shooting to get as close to that as possible and it's getting quite close. Camerica games are working on my build too like Micro Machines as well.

Tanooki

06-25-2014, 11:28 AM

As for stardust he's calming down and cooled off. Yes over at NA he is saying we chased him off over the R5, but aside from that he did make an apology for his behavior about it too so I just consider it a dead issue as he's being cool again.

Ozzy_98

06-25-2014, 12:02 PM

Then why the hell does the system download part/all of a game's ROM when you decide to play it? There's really no need for it, even as an emulation box. I think they're doing it for their special shaders and to just speed things up in general. From what I've seen it's just dumping the chr roms if there is one, so the console has faster local access rather than checking the slower old as hell chips.

Course legit tech info on the thing is lacking, and what I do hear keeps getting conflicted by later reports.

Satoshi_Matrix

06-25-2014, 04:58 PM

another day, another massive reply post.

Playing from an SD card would be interesting (though I'd rather have the option to back up ROMs TO an SD card, if it was only one or the other - obviously both functions would be even better from a consumer standpoint), but while I'm usually finding myself anti-DRM and the like, I don't think Hyperkin had any obligation to support a feature with this use. It's not original to the hardware, could earn the ire of some industry groups, and is just something else to worry about in the program. I hope that other groups / manufacturers will implement something more flexible.

Right. Hyperkin is under no obligation to directly support ROMs just because some people in the retro gaming community would want that. I actually somewhat admire them to sticking to their guns and refusing to do this. Their stubbornness reminds me of Nintendo in recent years.

The more interesting question, in my mind, is why they have opted for such a seemingly ridiculous and convoluted firmware update scheme.

I really get the impression that Hyperkin doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to firmware updates. Hell, the url to even get to the firmware updates isn't anywhere on the official RetroN5 site, and that's truly baffling. I get that Hyperkin is a small company with limited resources, but man some of the things they do make them seem like amateurs rather than professionals.

Like mentioned by others, I doubt Hyperkin had someone write new emulators from scratch, so they have to be based on something preexisting.

This is unknown, one way or the other. To presume knowledge that is unknown is a sign of self delusion.

I've got a few GBA bootlegs and all of them were labeled as "unknown cart". I can dump these same games with my own equipment, the title headers are still there, and with an auditing tool they will be recognized as what they actually are and labeled correctly. Sometimes they will be labeled as a pirate release, or as a hacked issue so EEPROM or flash save games are changed to be SRAM, but they're still there. Seems like you'd have to intentionally remove these headers from your database? These same games still dump and still work on my RetroN5, so they've accomplished nothing in fighting the good fight against piracy, only inconvenienced me because I can't use cheat codes and my gavesaves will be all mislabeled and janky. It's a small issue, but an issue.

I get that counterfeit cart compatibility is a non-issue for Hyperkin, along with support for extremely rare mappers used by tons of unlicensed FC/NES games. Few people own these and few people care, I understand. But from a hardware perspective I don't understand why the machine doesn't even detect that these carts are inserted. I get that these games not supported by the software anyway, but why doesn't the machine even recognize the cart is physically inserted? Again, not a complaint or whine because I neither expected them to work nor was it ever implied they would, just a head scratcher from a hardware tinkerer perspective.

Purely speculation, but I suspect both of the "Unknown Cart" and "No Cartridge Detected" errors are generic messages that pop up even in situations where they aren't 100% accurate. Game has any sort of header issue whatsoever? throw up Unknown Cartridge. System doesn't know what to do with the rom dump of something it can't properly read? better to just claim that there's nothing inserted. In either case these issues can and will be ironed out with future firmware updates, of that I am certain.

The wonky SRAM issue is a real legitimate complaint. It's extremely shitty that the SRAM issues exist on legit, real carts. The backup save issue, that you could transfer your saves to the internal memory and vice versa was a big selling point. Yet there are so many issues, even after the current updates, that will just completely erase the saves on your original carts. Nowhere in any documentation by Hyperkin or in the system itself is it stated that the save thing on some systems or games is currently a mess and that there's a good chance your save will be deleted or corrupted. No warnings that the software is still buggy and will make you lose all your precious save games. That's pretty shitty any way you look at it. If the feature is currently fucked up and you know it is then why not gray that option out? Or why not give a warning message to proceed at your own caution? They make a warning label pop up when trying to play a game is listed as "unknown cart" saying that it may not work correctly, and you can choose to proceed or not. Why not do this? Advertising that something works when it actually (and I hesitate to use this term) damages your property is a pretty shit thing, even if it's fixed down the road. Fixing it on the next update won't bring the dozen or so saves I've completely lost without any warning that it might happen.

the SRAM issues are regrettable, but Hyperkin is working on fixing all this. I'm confinent that in time these issues will vanish. In the meantime yeah, it does suck, but that's the risk you take as an early adopter. It isn't an excuse, but keep in mind Hyperkin is a tiny company staffed by people who seem to be winging many aspects. Maybe your expectations were too high to begin with? Again, obviously this is squarely Hyperkin's own fault and their mess, but they are taking steps to fix it, which is why I'm far less critical of them than I would otherwise be.

The unit ships with almost 2 gigs of on board memory. An SD cart is required to be inserted at all times if you plan on using cheat codes. Game save SRAM, savestates, and snapshots are teeny tiny file sizes so 2 gigs is flat out overkill, and even if memory constraints are tight you can direct the system to save these items directly to the SD card. I don't care that you can't use it to dump carts, I have plenty of hardware to do that. But with that much HD space what is their logic or what could be the hardware limitation behind having the ROM image delete itself once you remove the cart? They could still require the carts to be inserted to play, but maybe keep your last 5 games stored in memory so you don't have to do the dumping process every time. Hell, even if it was just as temporary as losing it when the unit powers off it would be better than what it is. Again, not a complaint just wishful thinking.

You're totally right about this. When it was first reveled that the Retron5 would have built-in flash storage for savestates and sram, I thought oh okay, so they'll have maybe 30 MB or so, since savestates are typically only around 60 KB. Whey they revieled the storage was going to be over a gigabyte, it really made me wonder if Hyperkin was planning something else for the flash memory storage, but then along with the storage announcement came the confirmation that if you want to do anything else you need to use an external SD card.

This totally reminded me of the original Xbox having a 10GB harddrive, with the only things users could do with that massive amount of console storage at the time being moving save files (again, at most, a few megabytes) or rip audio CDs. The bulk of that storage was inaccessible to the end user.

But with Hyperkin's firmware updates, maybe they will eventually let users do everything you mentioned with the storage. There are PS3 games that you can install to the harddrive but still requires the disc in the tray. There's no reason at all the same couldn't apply to 256Mb GBA games like Mother 3 on the RetroN5 that still require the cart inserted, but will actually run directly off the flash memory without the need to redump it every time you play.

But this is a distant thing that takes a backseat to the priority of getting everything to work as it is.

I assumed the games would be dumped to an internal memory where they could always be played easily at any time, once they were initially dumped to the console. If they're actually being deleted once the cartridge is removed, I really don't see how this is convenient at all.

That's your own fault for not paying attention. Yes, rom dumps only last so long as you have the cart inserted into the system, then the temporary storage is deleted. But its hardly an issue. based on all coverage I've seen, games for every system but GBA dump within 1-10 seconds, and GBA around 20-40 seconds depending on the size. And Hyperkin has said that they're developing a means to allow you to jump in and start playing GBA games even before they're fully dumped, so even the 20-40 second wait will be reduced or eliminated completely.

Seems like they're just making their job harder since they have to emulate things like the Super FX processor where as with a conventional setup, they'd only have to emulate each console itself.

Because the RetroN5 has features that could demand things not possible from the original co-processors, such as the use of savestates. For example, say you're playing Star Fox and encounter a boss, and then hit savestate so if you die you can restart. The Super FX chip would be doing calculations to render the positions of the polygons and all the other background calculations. If the user suddenly hit load state, then the chip would have to stop what its doing and recalculate what it was doing before.

This could result in crashes, glitches, or slow response times. By having the Retron5 emulation do everything, this becomes a non-issue. There's your reason.

For the Nintendo and Sega consoles, but homebrew development is certainly a major reason behind their development and popularity on the popular pre-crash consoles and the Atari 7800 (Which for anyone that loves the Golden Age of arcade gaming, I definitely recommend giving this system a second look someday thanks to the likes of PacManPlus).

Oh yeah, absolutely. PacMan 4K for example is without a doubt my favorite 2600 game. It's so much better than the official version it really needs to be seen to be believed that it's even possible to run on the 2600.

[about 100% compatibility] Almost wish they had never said that. It instantly was interpreted as a promise of 100% compatibility by quite a few people.

Well, in my view, if people interpreted that as a promise of 100% compatibility, then that's their own stupidity. Game companies choose their words very carefully when making announcements like that, just as politicians do. A political candidate that says their goal is to create job growth doesn't mean that they will vs a political candidate that says they will create job growth. The subtle difference means a whole lot.

[Stardust] is trolling in the AtariAge Retron 5 thread has provided similar comments as around here such as this one from the other day.
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/209669-retron-4-console-for-snesnesgenny-etc/?p=3014732
He definitely has created this problem himself.
[QUOTE=Tanooki;2003453]As for stardust he's calming down and cooled off. Yes over at NA he is saying we chased him off over the R5, but aside from that he did make an apology for his behavior about it too so I just consider it a dead issue as he's being cool again.

Stardust, if you're reading this, you need to do two things if you want this community and myself to forgive you:

1. Own up to what you did and apologize HERE. Doing so on NA amounts to a hill of beans for actions done on this community.
2. Never troll again. If you've got an opinion to share, then share it; but don't start making up lies to slander what you don't like. That's unacceptable, childish behavior I'd expect from a 10 year old on a Pokemon thread or something.

Do those things and I'll unblock you and respect you again. The choice is yours.

Perhaps with save states, but definitily not controller inputs. There's no significance on where the game data is residing. The rom dump isn't being modified on the fly by the Retron 5 when using something like a Genesis pad to control a NES game. It's essentially doing via the emulator program what you've done via hardware with your SuperNes SuperPad modification to use Y and B for NES games.

Good point, but my point was just that there are several reasons why the RetroN5 dumps the cartridge to ROM before running it rather than directly running the cart as the original hardware would.

I think they're doing it for their special shaders and to just speed things up in general. From what I've seen it's just dumping the chr roms if there is one, so the console has faster local access rather than checking the slower old as hell chips.

And those reasons too. Thanks for adding them.

I asked about the famicom expansion audio, and I was told that it is coded in there and works. I just don't have a copy of CV3(JP) to try it. I'm keeping an eye out for a cheap copy of it since I already have the US release.

I've seen it on youtube vids and I've got a copy myself along with other Famicom games with expansion audio. FYI, don't expect to ever find Akumajou Densetsu "cheap". Even in Japan the game has had a surge in price over the last 10 years. I bought my copy in the early 2000s CIB and the price for a cart only copy domestically in Japan is what I paid for my copy back then. Internationally and plus shipping, you'd be lucky to find a cart only copy these days for less than $50.

Still. Akumajou Densetsu is a superior game to Castlevania 3, and not just because of the VRC6 audio. Akumajou Densetsu is also a more fair game, as the difficulty for the North American version was increased for some reason. As well, the NES cart has censorship of blood and nudity, and although it uses the MMC5 board, Castlevania 3 does not actually use any of the features of Nintendo's most advanced mapper. Castlevania 3 exists only to showcase wasted potential.

Just a little something else to put out there. Another firmware public release is pending anytime now. I got yet another build overnight, and he says overall 99% of games will boot up and play on the system via CRC check or their new mapper0-4 auto detection routine. The saving problem on the GBA has been squashed except for the write from retron back to cart on EEPROM saves only. They're also working now on adding pirate famicom/nes multicarts, he added my Supervision 115in1 overnight, it works, glitchy, as it's a WIP but it is up and 100% detected(not listed as unknown.) Also some of my bootlegs are picking up now too like my famiclone of Crisis Force, and also the retrozone DK Original Edition picks up and plays now too.

They never once stated they were eventually going to be 100% running it all, they were shooting to get as close to that as possible and it's getting quite close. Camerica games are working on my build too like Micro Machines as well.

Thank you so much for the updates Tanooki. If it wasn't for your updates, everything would be doom and gloom around here. The R5 has so much potential and Hyperkin's continued actions to improve it make me want the thing even more.

But frustratingly, it now might be friggin August before I get mine. Hyperkin has begun to ship the preorder units to where I preordered mine, but I'm apparently in the "middle" of their preorders, so it could be some time still before I get my system. I'm hoping there might be a bunch of cancellations though, as the retailer still hasn't increase the price from $99 to $139, which they'll do once each order is ready to ship.

06-25-2014, 06:09 PM

System doesn't know what to do with the rom dump of something it can't properly read? better to just claim that there's nothing inserted.
That's the thing though, from a technical standpoint I don't understand why it behaves that way. On the carts I have that are not recognized (FC, GB, GBA) the system does nothing but stand idle when they're inserted. It doesn't skip, stutter, pause, throw an error, or attempt to do anything even at all, even if you sat and removed/inserted the cart a hundred times. It doesn't attempt to do anything. In fact, when it was sitting there idle doing nothing with a problem FC cart I inserted a SNES cart in the other slot (which according to Hyperkin is a big no-no) and it dumped and booted the SNES game.

All the cart slots are hot all the time, so there has to be a specific technical reason behind the system not even seeing those particular carts inserted.

Which is another point; I just don't see how it's healthy to be jamming and removing carts into slots that have voltage running to them at all times. We've been told by every manufacturer for the past 35 years to never do this lest our carts be ruined or saves lost, and some systems even went as far as to have physical locks so you couldn't remove the cart while the system was on. Was this just an old wives tale perpetrated by companies over the years?

Maybe your expectations were too high to begin with?
Expecting it to do something that's listed on the box, the manual, and the software frontend itself and then it not working is a disappointment. Having it damage my carts by permanently deleting my saves is a crock of shit. Expecting it to not permanently delete my 30 year old save data without warning, even after multiple updates, is not an outlandish expectation. Because of this I'm now leery about putting any cart with SRAM in it regardless of updates or not.

This is unknown, one way or the other. To presume knowledge that is unknown is a sign of self delusion.

In either case these issues can and will be ironed out with future firmware updates, of that I am certain.

Sheesh. So let me get this straight; because I doubt a tiny company like Hyperkin programmed their own Android-based emulators for over a half dozen consoles from scratch I'm self delusional, yet you have either a crystal ball or an inside line to the company where you know for a fact what problems will be addressed by future updates?

sonicfan

06-25-2014, 06:23 PM

I just don't see how it's healthy to be jamming and removing carts into slots that have voltage running to them at all times. We've been told by every manufacturer for the past 35 years to never do this lest our carts be ruined or saves lost, and some systems even went as far as to have physical locks so you couldn't remove the cart while the system was on. Was this just an old wives tale perpetrated by companies over the years?

I'm with you all the way. This is definitely a big no-no.

Tanooki

06-25-2014, 06:33 PM

The system as I had it explained to me dumps the entire game into the NAND storage temporarily, it's not just part of the game, it is all of it. I suppose if someone gets around to hacking the thing since it is Android based, you could just recode the 'erase once turned off' bit of code and it would be a straight up cart dumper that you could in turn via the mini USB port in back or SD card start tossing games around all over the place with no effort involved. This is what I was told was why the firmware is done that way and why they don't do direct ROM support, they don't want it to be on the level of the R4, the PS1 emulators around 2000, and other entities that Nintendo and Sony have stomped out of existence legally or at least bankrupting them with legal hoops and injunctions against selling until the court time is over as it would finish them off.

The emulators unless I was told a story because of the tech's bosses laying down the hammer due to NDAs is that they made them themselves, but everything they did was based off public resources from other emulators that are open to use such ways to random bits of shared public information on nesdev and other places that cover all the tech junk. I know they went over the fceu open source mapper stuffs as I handed that to the tech a couple nights ago and in return the Supervision 115in1 now is kind of up and running but needs work. That fceu source pile has a crap load of mappers for bootlegs and multicarts from asia.

The "UNKNOWN CART" language is a general term and kind of misleading as it's a catch all. Sometimes if you don't have a good seat on the cart or it's dirty you can get unknown cart. When it legit isn't working because there is no CRC32 on file for it, you'll get that. Also now with the test builds it will say this too if the game has to be picked up from the auto-mapper routine for mapper0-4 on NES games. That's the reason that message pops up, and it could be better saying why it's unknown like 'failed to read game' and 'game not in database' would be more helpful from a buyer side of things.

The SRAM issue is fixed, and the FLASH save is fixed too, EEPROM is 1/2 working but they're still needing to fix the write save from retron->cart for EEPROM games on GBA. I was told the SRAM saves for other games from NES through SNES and GB/GBC are working fine now unless there's some random bizarre bug that got by or on a particular game.

The storage on the thing is 1.2GB, and I believe some of that is reserved for the firmware, but don't hold me to that. It's like how the old WiiU had it's system files on that small storage it had gobbling up a good bit rendering the basic white model useless if you wanted to download most full size disc games. I'm thinking the storage size is probably to be over the top if someone out there buys it and owns like a 1000 games and wants all their saves on it along with a heap of save states and pictures. It would be hard, but I could see gobbling up a lot of it but for most people it'll go unused.

Downloading is slow to the system, but not for long. The lead tech has a routine being worked up. The largest GBA game can take over a minute to load up (Kingdom Hearts is one.) But they found a way to load the essential parts of the ROM to get it to boot and while it's going through starting screens on the game it will be continually loading the game in the background to the R5. This supposedly will allow the games to load up in a fraction of the time.

Satoshi anything is possible. I got Crisis Force w/book, Madoora no Tsubasa, and Parodius in the mail today for $60 shipped from Japan. I'll just keep my eyes out for it. I know and am familiar with the differences between the two, so in time I will get it. That time maybe this week or next month but it's on my to do list.

You're welcome for the updates. Here's the deal. Since I got the thing somehow I've made friends with the main R5 tech, apparently he's a new zelander living in HK who has been studying Chinese for a while and now works for Hyperkin, so the people working on it are english natives (queens english or americans) from what I gather. A nice guy, guessing from some of his references and gaming favorites (like XCOM and owning an Amiga) he's probably late 20s into mid 30s in age, friendly, knowledgable, and when he's not coding loves to shoot the shit with friendly people with similar interests. I hear enough from him about stuff that it gets my temper going when people start ripping on this dudes work as him and others are like working 8-12 hours a day looking at when he's online and I talk to him (12hr diff, he's on when it's night and morning for me, but not all day long, so it's a long shift.) He's tired of taking shit because he's doing what he can and enjoys what he has been able to pull off and he's being given freedom to do some interesting stuff on his own whims now that the internal build compatibility is in the 99% about range. He's taking a lot of this onto himself to get stuff going the biggest complainers and critics are going off on with homebrew, pirates, bootlegs, multicarts, slow long load times, and even looking to add features like a on/off switch for turbo (speedy) mode for gamers into that who requested it kindly. He clearly likes his job and the system and I can see why given the hardware that is in there, it can pull off quite a lot and he's just OCD(I think) enough if just one thing here or there is wrong, he has stopped and fixed stuff while I've talked to him so he's clearly determined and he's earned my respect along with the team. Even under not the great circumstances and limited resources(physical carts which he gets in more often) to figure stuff out, he's pulled off a lot since the first update on the 6th.

Again if anyone wants the latest test build that'll back up what I'm saying about the fixes I'm allowed to pass it on, he just wants anything piratey reported to him with the CRC32 numbers off the diagnostics panel that's enabled in return.