RetroN5: Hands on first look

[Tanooki]

Is that why using Piko's old Mother 3 release why I could never ever get down the multi-strike stuff with the music. I'm not good with musical timing to a point, but to blow it every single time other than maybe a one off to get a 2x hit seemed extreme so because it was a death blow to my advancement I ended up passing it along.

[Tanooki]

Oh by the way, no custom firmware involved it appears, yet someone broke open the R5 to run some roms, somehow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sCejfVUu9k&feature=youtu.be

Hyperkin rep posted it on facebook, and now the post is erased, but I got a mirrored copy that linked a youtube proof of concept in action which is the above link.

[Az]

IPS patching. Pretty cool, unexpected feature.

For those that always want flashcart support one could just create IPS patches to change a cart to anything. Although I know little of the GBA side I can affirm that on the MD/SNES portion creating a custom IPS patch to change a game to anything else you want seems to work fine.

Edit
Looks like the above linked video does that.

[Tanooki]

It does but it does not show you how to make it so you can run whatever you want which is pretty damn annoying to video brag and then not share. The only thing you can gain so far from the comments is that to work you have to put a game from the system you're running the ROM for, any game. So like GB Tetris can be in the slot, and you can run Super Mario Land 2 or Final Fantasy Adventure, and so on into console games like put in Starfox and run Super Mario RPG.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

tomorrow morning I pick up my Retron5. Impressions (especially how it compares to the Ouya) will follow.

[Az]

It does but it does not show you how to make it so you can run whatever you want which is pretty damn annoying to video brag and then not share.

There's nothing to it really, you're just using the IPS patch to replace the entire ROM contents rather than just small bits and pieces of graphics or text. In an IPS program load the cart you have as the source and the ROM you want as the finished file, then when the patch it spits out is applied it changes your ROM dumped by the console entirely to something else.

Course the resulting IPS patch is much larger than a simple graphical or text hack, the size will be damn near the same as the entire ROM you're trying to replace it with.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Updated the firmware and tried out a lot of content.

compatibility reports to follow, but for now, couple of things I've noticed in the first few hours:

The Retron5 is more specialized, but wow it is missing a lot of features that come standard on Ouya's .emu series.

The screenshot function needs to save to an SD card for whatever reason, but when I tried experimenting, I noticed it saves screenshots as lossy JPEGs! Seriously!? Why the hell Hyperkin? Every other emulator uses .PNG or at least .BMP. Lossy JPEG screenshots are something I would expect from Nintendo! These artifact ridden jpeg screenshots are worthless, especially since I could take crystal clear .png screenshots from my Ouya.

Then I tried original GameBoy games. Why is it they only seem to be capable of running in grayscale? Why can't you select the color options of the GBC? Once again this is a simple feature the Ouya has over the Retron5. Yes, it does render SGB comptible games at least in their enhanced SGB modes, but even they don't have the SGB enhanced features like audio from the SNES, Space Invaders '95 doesn't work properly, and you can't disable the SGB color either. This emulator needs work to be anywhere near the level already on the Ouya.

Likewise, GBC games only run in GBC mode and cannot be played grayscale or in SGB or GBA modes. GBA enhanced GBC games have their content locked as a result, and excellent games such as Shantae look worse than if played on the GB Player. This needs a major overhaul.

Also you cannot assign auto fire with any controller, not even the R5 pad?! WHAT.

I want to use an SNES controller to play NES games and have Y = B, B = A, X = Autofire B, and A = Autofire A. I can do that on Ouya. Why can't I do that here?! None of the controller options support turbo/auto fire at all!

There are some things I like about the Retron5 but there's a lot of noticeable features missing that this thing should have. Currently, the Ouya's emulators are far, far more fully featured. Hopefully someone can voice these complaints to Hyperkin and have them address these issues in firmware updates.

[Tanooki]

I had no idea but the retron tech is reading this forum. :) Satoshi, the JPG screen shot setup is not worthless. It has no compression set to it at all, so there's no loss in quality. You're saying it's lossy, he's telling me it's set to not be lossy at all.

I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers. I think you're a bit too enamored by Ouya while being pissed at them over the shipping delay and looking for reasons.

Perhaps if you think these issues and non-issues are so huge you could direct a conversation to the retron tech over on facebook or write something here, I guess he'll see it but I have no idea if he'd make an account to answer.

I'm talking to him about your post at the moment live. PNG format could be a possibility to add for images. GBC color palette schemes is being addressed as well with game specific settings.

[Tanooki]

To Satoshi, Az and the others. If you have an issue, let's post these things publicly and be very specific what is causing it, what you're using and so on. He does read this forum so that information will be taken down and used for upgrades/repairs.

AZ to that PM you sent me about SMS/SRAM, he'll need to know what games, what devices, etc you're using.


Hey Satoshi I've been thinking. You seem to be still pretty up on the Ouya. How about this? Why not compare them on base features? I'm talking about what really critically matters. Input lag, Audio Lag, framerate, visual filters, even connected controllers via usb (usb-snes pad ouya vs r5 with snes pad.) Bells an whistles with auto fire buttons and color palettes for gbc are frills, and they are being added/worked on anyways since it's in development so they're temporary gripes. Let's look at the core hardware and core performance and see what comes out on top.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Satoshi, the JPG screen shot setup is not worthless. It has no compression set to it at all, so there's no loss in quality. You're saying it's lossy, he's telling me it's set to not be lossy at all.

JPEG is a compressed, lossy format used for quick loading of websites. Even "no compression" jpeg is still lossy. I'm not just saying this. I have taken screenshots with the Retrtron5 and when I looked at them in photoshop, noticed compression all over the place and then noticed they're friggin jpegs. If you'd like, I can post direct screenshot comparisons between what I get from the Retron5 and what I get from the Ouya.

Hyperkin should swtich to using .png. Immediately.



I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers.

When pure emulation, one shouldn't have to rely on using a controller with turbo fire switches like they'd have to use on the real hardware. Every emulator worthwhile has turbo fire settings, and not just on Ouya. On the PSP, on Wii homebrew, original Xbox, various retro game compilations like Megaman Anniversary Collection or Metal Slug Anthology. You can remap the controls of any controller, but there are no settings for auto fire, and no settings to adjust the rate of auto fire. These should be added in as they are glaring omissions.

Also why is it you cannot set Retron5 specific functions like return to the menu to the SNES or Genesis six button controller with a single button? When I'm playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC, I want to use an SNES controller that is mapped as such:

Y = B
B = A
X = Turbo B
A = Turbo A
L = Return to Retron5 Menu (functions the same as the Home button on the Retron5 pad)
R = Some other function, maybe save state

The way it is right now, you HAVE to use a button combo. It doesn't let you reassign it to only a single button even if that single button is unused! This should be changed as well, at least when using a SNES or Six button Genesis controller. I can understand not letting you do that with an NES controller since there are too few buttons, but c'mon, why is it that I have to use a button combo for controllers that have extra, unused buttons?



I think you're a bit too enamored by Ouya while being pissed at them over the shipping delay and looking for reasons.

I am certainly angry at Hyperkin for all their delays, but my above complaints aren't anything about the Ouya, they're about glaring omissions with the Retron5 that are present in emulators for all kinds of other devices. These things can easily be fixed, so the fact that they aren't is what I find strange. It's like Hyperkin didn't even look at other emulators to see what functions they offer and the Retron5 should as well.


Tanooki, is it possible for you to pm me some contact info for the R5 tech? I don't want to yell at the guy or anything like that, I just want to inform him of some specific problems as I've said above and some others as I've had several games come up as UNKNOWN CARTRIDGE or just not work at all when they should.


Also, on the OUya vs Retron5 comparison, specifically lay out everything that you want me to compare and I'll do that.

[Tanooki]

I'm aware of how JPEG works, wife is a amateur/semi-pro level photographer and she refuses to use anything but RAW for that very reason. The argument he made was that it's set to 0% compression so it's just the standard minimal 'lossy' effect of the format but for most people it's clean. He said he could add PNG support. He reads this thread, just only pops in guest to not become an issue on this site and others.


I get your argument about the controller. Yes they could add it, I bet you they will but you have to realize it's trivial compared to true problems and larger issues even if those are somewhat trivial too, like the IPS/UPS patching. Yet they're still cleaning out the sync bugs, random games failing to work right or load at all and that's far more important and I think you'd agree. I feel you that games and compo packages have the ability to remap, and on a basic level so does the R5 to any button, and combos are there for the menu functions because it's a security thing really because some games do use combos of buttons or specific buttons to do functions so I understand why they did that. Perhaps they will open it up wider later, but I doubt it will be the next beta. Perhaps if this is a huge issue for you, you should let the guy know and give him a logical plan to cover this omission that covers ALL contingencies between different games which use buttons varying ways. Many games just use what's there, some will use combos too like Wing Commander SNES uses 2 or 3 buttons to toggle through the left/right HUD panels to do functions.

I don't feel what you're saying are glaring omissions really are, it's in the end ultimately optional fluff, all of it you've brought up again in the last post. You do have some valid ones with the GBC color handling, but as he said and I relayed it is being added so that can come off your list of problems. The way I've had it explained is that the priority stuff, the actual functioning of the core systems, android menu package (menu, bootloader, crc game detection, handling of files/saves/picture) core hardware level emulation packages (all systems in relation to accuracy, sync, function, etc) and the controller stuff is all the priority as this games the games run and run correctly to the original stuff. Then you have the secondary things, the fluff, IPS packages, your idea of button mapping possibilities, running bootleg/multi cart warez carts, legit homebrew, and other stuff comes after the fact as it's all just extra gravy the end user would like to have included. I can't blame them for making it right before making the extras right and exist.

I don't have an email or phone for the tech, I just use his private comment(message) feature up on facebook. You can find his account with the following link, send a message and let him know it's you by your DP 'nickname' and you'll get somewhere I'm sure. He knows of you by name and your comments and would surely like to hash things out with concerns. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005440995949

[Leo_A]

I see some of your complaints being valid with how GB/GBC stuff displays, but some of this just seems like complaining. Auto fire isn't really necessary, that's what those switches are for on controllers.

Of course it isn't necessary, but this feature is hardly a niche one nor a complicated one for them to implement.

I had assumed until now that the Retron 5 already had this option. It's an obvious one that I think most of their customers, at least those more familiar with the nature of this product, would take for granted as being present from day 1 until to their surprise someday when they go to enable it, they can't find it.

If I wanted to use a stock gamepad and enable turbofire, I should be able to do just that on this emulation machine.

[Az]

AZ to that PM you sent me about SMS/SRAM, he'll need to know what games, what devices, etc you're using.

Both a regular Sega branded US Power Base Converter & Tototek SMS/MarkIII converter. Tested on several (all?) US released SMS games with SRAM, and being as there was only a handful I'm pretty sure I tried them all. Miracle Warriors, Phantasy Star, Y's: The Vanquished Omens and something else I can't think off off the top of my head. All load up with headers correctly and play FM sound if applicable but do not detect any SRAM backup. Does not do an initial import and if you try to manually import/export saves it gives the ususal "cart doesn't have SRAM or is unsupported" error.

Often the original save game is left alone and ignored (it will still be on there if you remove the cart from the R5 and plug it in a SMS/MD) but it has been deleted on older firmware/software updates.

Also mappers for Korean MarkIII games aren't supported, but I'm sure that's the least of their priorities.

[Tanooki]

Ok got some stuff here.

For starters and even the Tech pointed this out to me too, Satoshi I did lay it out, you're dodging asking that. Go back to my other post and read the part of looking at it from a performance standpoint where I listed things making frills which can and likely will be added secondary.

Now AZ -- Confirmed, SMS on any thing is not going to work, currently. The problem, it's not added at all as he has no US-SMS games at all, and since there isn't info out there, he needs the cart to analyze it in order to add SRAM save for SMS or it'll go unfinished I guess. I hope someone can find him a dirt cheap loose copy of Ys, PStar, or MW to do that.

As for my SMB2 issue and others, US office has the game, tested it on their hardware and it works, so for those where it failed (me) it's a problem and I guess a replacement will come out to me in return.

PNG -- added in the dev build, guess this will pop up sooner than later for those who aren't fans of JPG.

GBC -- Color selection works including auto selection for certain games based on the GBC database(I'm guessing this means games with preset colors in the GBC bios such as Kirby DL2, Metroid, Street Fighter II, etc will do as they did on the GBC.)

I hope this helps.

[ibain]

Updated the firmware and tried out a lot of content.

Also you cannot assign auto fire with any controller, not even the R5 pad?! WHAT.



I didn't even think of that option, but it would be awesome if they added it

ETA: Is there any talk from Hyperkin of creating a wireless controller with a real D pad in the future? I honestly stopped using the included controller all together now. I love the wireless, just hate the controller itself. Hell, if there was a patch so I could connect a wii controller or ps3 controller to it, I'd be happy.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Of course it isn't necessary, but this feature is hardly a niche one nor a complicated one for them to implement.

I had assumed until now that the Retron 5 already had this [turbo fire button options]. It's an obvious one that I think most of their customers, at least those more familiar with the nature of this product, would take for granted as being present from day 1 until to their surprise someday when they go to enable it, they can't find it.

If I wanted to use a stock gamepad and enable turbofire, I should be able to do just that on this emulation machine.

This is 100% how I felt. Turbo fire buttons are present in every emulator except for the ones from Nintendo because Nintendo's emulators are incredibly barebones and lacking tons of other basic functions. I had assumed that Turbo fire button mappings could be toggled with the 1.0 Retron5 firmware since that's something that can be done on emulators for Xbox, Wii, PSP, Ouya, PC and tons of other devices. I agree, get the emulation structure up and running before you add extras, but c'mon, this needs to be added.

To reiterate, I want:

-In additional to all current button mappings, the ability to assign turbo fire versions of all action buttons for all systems.

-Turbo mappings not to interfer with regular mappings! For example, when playing NES games with an SNES or the R5 controller, I want to be able to have access to the B and A buttons and ALSO turbo B and A buttons so I can switch simply from regular B to turbo B just by moving my thumb to another button.

-Remove the restrictions with accessing the R5's emulation functions via a button combo! If I am playing NES games with an SNES controller, I want to be able to simply press the L button and return to the R5's menu the same way as simply pressing the R5's home button. Still allow button combos to access these features of course, but remove the restrictions that you HAVE to press at least two buttons to access the menu.

[Tanooki]

More updates beta5 now!

2.0 Beta 5!

- "Patches" menu converted to "Game specific settings" which from this point will allow certain settings to be configured on a game specific basis
- Added the color scheme selection to the game specific settings menu for Gameboy games. In addition, the correct CGB colors will be automatically selected for certain games
- Screenshots may now be saved as either PNG or JPEG, with PNG made as the new default
- Added option to use separate saves for patch enabled games, configurable on a per game basis
- Added "Disable FM sound" option for SMS games to per game settings
- Improvements to rendering synchronization


There's the PNG and Gameboy Color stuff as requested, same with the SMS FM disable.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

great. where can I find that?

[Tanooki]

Facebook?
https://www.facebook.com/HyperkinGames

[nusilver]

Hey Tanooki, just wanted to toss this out there: I tried out the Beta 4 firmware a few days ago (haven't downloaded 5 yet) and the Mother 3 UPS patch worked like a charm on my JP cartridge. That said, apparently the repro cart wasn't the issue, because I still can't hit combos in battle to save my life. Looks like it's just an emulation issue with the game itself... no idea how they'd fix that other than using a different emulator. Hope that gets sorted eventually since Mother 3 is my all-time favorite RPG :)

[Satoshi_Matrix]

it's probably frameskipping. I've noticed that happens a lot in slightly advanced SNES games. In particular I find Super FX games to be unplayable due to the frame skipping, from Star Fox to Yoshi's Island.

These are issues I hope Hyperkin fixes soon.

[Tanooki]

I have no idea. I just played it on a micro and I never could pull off the combos with the crappy random rhythm you have to pick up I think almost instantly or you fail to make contact so I walked away from it. Maybe it's the emulator, maybe it's input lag caused by the tv, maybe it's a hair of a delay from the bluetooth controller. I don't think the emulator actually does frame skip. I think it does have sync errors with some games, they're working to clear those out. Supposedly beta5 fixed the sync problem with DKC some people are saying so far.

[nusilver]

It's definitely not frameskipping - you can tell by how smooth the psychedelic animated backgrounds are during battle. There's some kind of weird sync issue happening in battle that I can't really wrap my head around. I have noticed weird issues with Donkey Kong Country where if I play for a bit, it starts to drop frames like it's struggling to keep up, but saving state, closing, then re-opening usually fixes it. Can't explain any of this... I just want to be able to play Mother 3 with my Retron 5, whether it's with my JP cart or Piko's repro.

[Tanooki]

That's what I said before from what the tech and I were talking about. There is a sync error which is causing the eventual skipping effect one sees thinking it is the framerate with DKC, Yoshis Island and a few others so I imagine Mother 3 falls into the same family and it is a bug being addressed and will in time be fixed.

[treismac]

As I am fairly certain of what your reply would be if I asked you if you prefer the Ouya to the Retron 5, I won't bother, but, Satoshi, how does the Retron 5 stack up to the Super Retro Trio? Also, what kind of tv(s) have you played the Super Retro Trio with? I've read that the clone plays much better on CRTs, and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

As I am fairly certain of what your reply would be if I asked you if you prefer the Ouya to the Retron 5, I won't bother, but, Satoshi, how does the Retron 5 stack up to the Super Retro Trio? Also, what kind of tv(s) have you played the Super Retro Trio with? I've read that the clone plays much better on CRTs, and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this.

First, you gotta understand I'm not a hater of the Retron5. I bought the thing. I want the thing. I have a huge collection of carts and the Retron5 makes them actually relevant on my HDTV as I have zero plans to spend hundreds on an xRGB. My anger at Hyperkin is mostly at the three month delay from the time I expected my Retron5 to ship to the time it actually did. That delay was bullshit to the nth degree. Imagine if it were made in Canada and it were Americans that had to wait three months post the Canadian release.

The other source of my anger comes from the fact that the Retron5 lacks basic emulation features that the Ouya -and emulators on every other device- come with stock. I can't assign turbo fire buttons? I can't map fastforward to a single button using an original controller like SNES? Screenshots are in JPEG format? These oversights are baffling. How is it the Retron5 can be so barebones when its singular purpose is emulation of these 10 specific formats and the Ouya nailed it right away when emulators are just one of many things that it does?


Now to answer your question....I won't answer your question. At least not directly. The Ouya vs Retron5? That's a fair debate. Retron5 vs Super Retro Trio? Emulator vs Reverse Engineered hardware clone? Nope, not gonna do that. The two exist in different worlds, are intended for different types of tvs, and are for different kinds of retro gamers. They're also $50 apart. The SRT is best used with an SDTV, a CRT. You don't want to be rocking that on an HDTV because of native resolutions and all that. The Retron5 is HDTV only, although you could run it on an SD display with some crazy adapter.

[Tanooki]

I don't think anyone here believes you're a Retron hater, but I think it's a safe bet enough feel that you're so pro-Ouya that it creates an unfair slant against the R5. That seems to keep popping up with the comments, comparisons, and really chincy nitpicks against the R5. For one you have a rubiks cube box, a catch all device which has a controller with it too but is known for lag. The emulators on the Ouya also introduce some input and sync lag inherent with Android, but also with the multi-OS ported FREE emulators that have been around for years in some form or another (some as far back as the 1990s with SNES9Xex.) You love the thing, you've gushed over it heaps and all how it's open to do this and that. To date, you've had little to nothing nice to say about the R5, it has been all feeding off others comments and being infuriated over Amazon and their delays. You seem stuck on the fact it's an US company that shipped to the US first and NEVER promised it day one in Canada, Amazon blew that one, but hey why point at them right?

This R5 you keep lying and lying about saying it is 'bare bones' ...hardly. It's pitched as a console. The Ouya is pitched as a multimedia box that in turn also plays games. They're not the same. One uses emulators that have been around a LONG time, the other has been live and still in development for 3 months now (and yes I know it was developed closed for a time too.) The system is NOT barebones, wish you could get beyond your narrow love of the Ouya and fury over the delays on the thing. You clearly own one, must be easy to discount that HUGE menu there with many features on it. Audio and visual changes and filters. Save and Load states. Screen captures. Full file system manager for save data and images, and now IPS and UPS patches to run foreign games with patches to english or total conversions (which emulators in general don't do, you have to hard patch a ROM.) The screen captures you're lying about too, they do PNG now, keep up with the updates eh? The Ouya itself didn't nail shit! They didn't make the emulators, development of them, or welcome them, it was third party people who put the stuff up there, stuff that already existed on other platforms so why do you keep giving credit where it is NONE due??

This drama queen bullshit is getting old you know it? If you're going to be a so called objective reviewer with your write-ups and videos, how about getting a start on being objective? You bring up invalid garbage, twist stories, and omit things that do exist for whatever reason. Understand you're not the center of their development world. This system is still in development on the software side and they're adding a ton of unintended features as it is already people have requested. Don't let your head get larger, but I'm sure your want of a turbo button(auto fire) and single button short cuts will happen and sooner than later, they're easy to add, just not essential compared to compatibility and stability issues. I'd think you'd care about stability, Ouya's emulators don't have it, they drop frames due to weaker hardware and fall out of sync too, and the input lag is noticeable on that one too. I did my research when I didn't buy the Ouya.

Look I like you, you do nice reviews in general, and to this point you've come off pretty objective on stuff, but this one you're just way out of line on and it's bordering into the land of selective memory witch hunt.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Oy....long post. This is gonna take a while to break down.



I don't think anyone here believes you're a Retron hater, but I think it's a safe bet enough feel that you're so pro-Ouya that it creates an unfair slant against the R5.

I am pro-Ouya, but I am not dismissive of the Ouya's current problems. The system has but a single USB port and thus requires you to use a powered USB hub if you want to do something crazy like use a storage medium and a controller. The Ouya controller isn't well suited for most of the emulators because it's wireless. There's a lot pure junk on Ouya, and it makes finding good games difficult. Ouya changed its policy in the spring from the initial promise of "all games are free to try in some way" to letting devs get away with asking for payment before you even try their game. This does not sit right with me when it comes to indie titles from unknown developers. Let me play your game for at least a few minutes before a paywall. Everything should have a demo if not be completely free. Initial paywalls mean I probably won't ever play your game no matter how good it is, and I'm not alone in that. It's a stupid, stupid business model that does not belong on the Ouya. Another problem is non-standardized pricing. Unlike ios or the google app store, prices on Ouya games are all over the place. Some are 99 cents and some are $15. But then there are the ones that are $4, 8, or really any amount between $1-15. The prices they devs come up with in this range seem to be arbitrary. There should be a tier system based on criteria.

The Ouya has plenty of problems. I'm "pro-Ouya" based on all that it gets right, but again, that doesn't mean I'm an Ouya fanboy or that I judge the Retron5 or anything else unfairly.



For one you have a rubiks cube box, a catch all device which has a controller with it too but is known for lag. The emulators on the Ouya also introduce some input and sync lag inherent with Android, but also with the multi-OS ported FREE emulators that have been around for years in some form or another (some as far back as the 1990s with SNES9Xex.

Hold up. The Ouya controller's lag issues have been solved for quite some time now for the OS and most games. Some games still have lag with the controller, but that's the fault of the developer not patching their games. Ouya fixed this and I believe it is unfair to be critical of a problem that no longer exists no matter what platform it is. Lag/snyc inherent with Android... yes and no. That depends on what it is you're emulating. NES/SNES/PCE/Genesis/GB/Neo-Geo etc? No. No lag, no issues. These formats work 100% beautifully on Ouya. N64, PS1, Dreamcast? Yeah, those have issues. You cannot generalize the performance of every emulator on Ouya as the same, as that just isn't true.



You love the thing, you've gushed over it heaps and all how it's open to do this and that. To date, you've had little to nothing nice to say about the R5, it has been all feeding off others comments and being infuriated over Amazon and their delays. You seem stuck on the fact it's an US company that shipped to the US first and NEVER promised it day one in Canada, Amazon blew that one, but hey why point at them right?

My full review of the Retron5 will be out at the end of the month. I haven't said much on it for the sake of spoilers and to give my audience something to look forward to. Rest assured....it will be positive, save for what's wrong with it and yes, the unreasonably long delay will definitely get a mention. And actually, I was promised the thing would ship when Hyperkin said so, which was supposedly June 6. Of course I'm angry at Amazon, but I was repeatedly told that they didn't have the product to ship to me. It was Hyperkin who hadn't provided them with the inventory. Hyperkin who caused the delays. This was something I looked into, and contacted both Amazon and Hyperkin about.





This R5 you keep lying and lying about saying it is 'bare bones' ...hardly. It's pitched as a console. The Ouya is pitched as a multimedia box that in turn also plays games. They're not the same.

I was referring to the features of the emulators of the Ouya, such as the .emu series vs the Retron5, not the Retron5 itself vs the Ouya. We all know the Ouya is more powerful and does a lot more. That's obvious, and for this comparison, also irreverent.

The Retron5's emulation features are bare bones. No turbo button assignments. You can't map emulation functions to a single key using whatever controller you want. The screen options are far more limited on the Retron5 than they are on the Ouya. Screenshots were until I complained saved as JPEGs. Scanline intensity cannot be toggled. You cannot adjust the GUI. These are of course things that Hyperkin can fix with updates, but my initial reaction to these basic emulator features being absent gave me déjà vu to 2006 when I first bought a Wii and downloaded Sonic the Hedgehog 1 for $8 on Virtual Console and discovered the emulator...has no options to adjust ANYTHING. No savestates. No controller options. No screenshots. No Video options. NOTHING. Of course the Retron5 emulators aren't nearly as bad, but that's the feeling I got when I went from the Ouya to the Retron5.

Now, with the IPS patching, the Retron5 has a feature the OUya's emulators don't, and the Ouya has to play catch up. But everything else that the Retron5 emulators do the Ouya emulators also do from the aforementioned audio/video filters, save/load states, screenshots, file manager for saves and savestates, etc. Hyperkin needs to play catch up to add in some of the basic features the Ouya's emulators have, but once they do that difference will be nullified and that will go a long way to improve the Retron5.




This system is still in development on the software side and they're adding a ton of unintended features as it is already people have requested. Don't let your head get larger, but I'm sure your want of a turbo button(auto fire) and single button short cuts will happen and sooner than later, they're easy to add, just not essential compared to compatibility and stability issues. I'd think you'd care about stability, Ouya's emulators don't have it, they drop frames due to weaker hardware and fall out of sync too, and the input lag is noticeable on that one too. I did my research when I didn't buy the Ouya.


Again I agree, stability and compatibility are paramount things Hyperkin needs to fix on the Retron5. I'm simply surprised core emulation features like turbo fire and emulation shortcut button mappings weren't in place from the get-go. None of these features were added to emulators on other platforms. It seems strange they would need to be for the Retron5. But as to what you said about the Ouya's emulators dropping frames and having sync issues, you're either going off info that is out of date or talking about the emulation of PS1/N64/Dreamcast, which is true. Emulation of those systems on the Ouya is garbage. But when it comes to the emulation performance of the formats the Retron5 can run on both the Retron5 and the Ouya, they both run pretty damn similar, to the point where I've noticed the same emulation issues at the same points on both and many additional emulation issues on the Retron5 that the Ouya does not have.


The Retron5 is not a bad system and in fact is getting better all the time. My aim is to be objective. There's some things I really like about the Retron5 that Hyperkin got right and thee are things that I really like about the Ouya that they got right. The Retron5 is a lot newer so of course it'll have more kinks to work out. All I want to do is make the shortcomings of the Retron5 known so that they can be fixed and the missing features added in.

There's no reason the Retron5 can't have turbo fire mappings or let me simply return to the menu by pressing the L button on an SNES controller when playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC/3 button Genesis games.

[Tanooki]

I don't want to quote a quote and break the board with a novel.

#1 I'm aware of what Ouya was, did, and is now, it's filthy considering their promises to the kickstarter days. NO need to quote why either, you banked it entirely with that post. My beef was also hosing over existing owners, they went through 3 iterations of the controller due to sticky buttons and input lag which they fixed the first and not all of the second but minimized it a lot, yet not enough for emulated stuff, just Ouya coded things...mostly.

#2 I think that's up to debate if the controller was entirely fixed, at least on the stock unit. I know they did another version on their order online only 16GB unit that was white, it is lag free I do recall that, but the real fix plus the added space is an added cost which isn't right. I hate to say it but you're wrong there, there is input lag/sync/frameskipping issues on the emulators with Ouya. They on the surface to work 100% nice on Ouya, but if you're sensitive to the problem, it's not, and it's not TV based but system due to the android os itself. It's not the emulator fault, it's the OS that's hindering it.

#3 Well I look forward whatever is in there to see it, you usually are objective. The delay, let's get this clear, were you told this by Hyperkin, or was this something Amazon said Hyperkin supposedly told them? Amazon isn't always told stuff, when they don't get into, they dig, and easily the .ca version of the us .com site likely just aped the date to fill it in. If Hyperkin specifically told you this, then yeah they deserve a hot steaming turd flung at them for that screw up. I know Hyperkin did not supply the Canadian version with supply until weeks ago, but is this Hyperkin's fault ultimately or really Amazon? Hyperkin either gave the .ca site a will ship date, or Amazon made one up using the US site and that puts them at fault for using(making up) bad info. I'd love a real answer to that.

#4 Barebones is perspective, and I do not agree with your sentiment given all the options there are within the menus as it stands on Beta 2.0b5, in the file system, the patching, and even the core stuff since 1.0 even. What you're asking for is fluff, and you know very well it will be added, and could very well be added by the time that video/text bit is done...and if it is, would you be one of very very few reviewers willing to revise the comments? I'm very familiar having a dozen or two VC games on the Wii how barebones it was, and R5 to that is night and day. The Wii VC was hot save when paused, maybe some button meddling on a very minor scale if you were lucky, and that's it. I'm not really sure the R5 needs to catch up to Ouya, you keep saying that, but those .emu emulators are Android wide, I've got the NES one on my tablet and snes9xex on there too. I'm clear on what they can and can't do, and the R5 for playing the actual games correctly trumps them and in turn the Ouya experience.

#5 Core emulation features I think you have a weird description of. Adding in added fluff like single button mapping and turbo buttons is not core and never will be in any sane persons mind. Those are extras, straight up. Core features, ie CORE emulation features are what make the emulator tick to make the game run as accurately if not dead accurately like if it were on real hardware. The R5 takes down the .emu (Android, Ouya, etc) packages on that one. It doesn't have as much fluff extras as of yet, but as you can see stuff is being added quickly, such as your .PNG file picture saving request. My info again isn't out of date. You can look the specs up, I have a Nexus 7 2013 32GB version tablet, I don't run crap in the background, and I can say that more intensive stuff for the old games, snes in particular on special chip titles, do not run as well dropping frames or skipping if I allow it to be entirely smooth and that causes input/visual lag problems. Using the R5 which only is Android in menu, emulator using the hardware when in game mode, they don't.

Keep an eye out I think your requests on the mapping and turbo is on the short list and has been for a bit.

[Az]

There's no reason the Retron5 can't have turbo fire mappings or let me simply return to the menu by pressing the L button on an SNES controller when playing NES/Famicom/GB/GBC/3 button Genesis games.

I can see the objection with this and although by far I am no programmer I would assume this would be a trivial feature to implement. It wasn't too long ago that you couldn't map the mode or select buttons to anything and that issue was addressed. Hopefully both of the things you mention are done soon.

Speaking of controller compatibility, has anyone personally had anything that wouldn't work correctly or read reports from anywhere else about things that didn't work? I ask because I have an Arcadian stick that is recognized by the unit and games as 6-button but X, Y, & Z won't actually do anything in-game. I was going to try some of my other sticks and some of Tototek's adapters tonight to see about using PS sticks on the unit.

[RoryDropkick]

We have released the RetroN 5 v2.0 BETA 6 firmware build. Please note that this release is BETA and not STABLE; those of you who do not want to risk running into bugs should stick with the stable releases only. Changes since v2.0 BETA 5 include:
- Added ability to assign "turbo" button mappings
- Split in-game hotkey configuration so that each combination of "system playing" / "controller used" has its own separate mapping
- Removed requirement of at least two buttons for hotkey combinations
- Fixed a problem preventing Genesis cheats from functioning while having fast cartridge loading enabled

Wow, they really are reading the thread, aren't they ;)

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Good on Hyperkin. Seriously, good work lads.

This weekend is when I'm going to record my review of the thing, and what was going to be a rant on missing basic features that the Ouya and other devices have will now simply be "these basic features are missing initially, but were added in the latest firmware".


Another issue I want Hyperkin to address:

When playing a game, if you open the emulation settings menu called the "In -Game Menu" with options such as saving/loading states and such and then choose to Return to the Main Menu in order to adjust any other settings, when you return to play, it reboots the game. There is no reason for this. It should simply resume where you where entered the "In-Game Menu", or at the very least ask the player if they want to "Return to Game or Reset" with Return to Game being the default, preselected option.

[Leo_A]

Anything happened yet in regard to having multiple cartridges inserted?

Seemed like some were optimistic that a boot option would eventually be included so that if you were for instance in the middle of playing through Zelda II for the NES and wanted to take a spin in Super Mario Kart for some multiplayer action, you could keep Zelda II inserted and just select to run what was inserted into the SuperNes slot.

Haven't noticed anything in the change logs for that yet.

[Tanooki]

Az and Satoshi: Yes adding those features is trivial, the tech stated as much to me before. That stuff has been on a bucket to do list and was for this set of betas so now it's there. I saw you were really humble taking credit there on the hyperkin facebook too Satoshi. I kind of fail to see a reason to even notate it was out when it is in now unless you already wrote the piece.

Your other complaint, re-enable "auto load last save" and your entire gripe is gone. It is supposed to be on by default, so you must have disabled that. There is no reason to not have a reason for it being missing as it's there and it has been turned off. :) Think of it this was with you currently having it off. The pop up box ''menu" is a set of basic features you can use with the game loaded, as if it were a real hardware console like a stock SNES with like a Pro Action Replay or Naki device in it. The grander 'main menu' that is like turning off the power and removing the cartridge. There's a difference there.


Leo I think that was addressed before that the system itself was designed, maybe not the best, but where it powers to all the cart slots, so having 2 games in causes it to read 2 games at the same time causing a conflict. I think the older retron you left whatever in, but had to flip a switch on the hardware for the unit to power one slot over the others.

[Leo_A]

We have speculated that it's a hardware limitation, but we don't actually know that it's not something that can't be resolved with a firmware patch. If you wouldn't mind, how about asking your contact there about it?

Would be nice to get a definitive answer one way or another. If it can be addressed via a software change, I hope they tackle it.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

It should be possible to manually tell it which cartridge port to dump the rom from rather than do it automatically, but that's hardly an issue. You don't need to have multiple carts inserted at once. There's no reason for that. It's like one of those CD players that you could put five CDs in at once and swap between them or a toaster that has eight slots for bread. Just because they have additional ports doesn't mean there is any advantage in using them. Afterall, you can only play one a game a time anyway, so what's the point in having five carts inserted at once? I see this as a very non-issue.

[Leo_A]

That it isn't a necessary feature doesn't make it a pointless feature. It wasn't necessary for their system to be able to read and write saves back to the original cartridges, but it's there. Just as we wouldn't argue for the removal of that, I don't see why we should argue against an added feature for convenience if it's reasonably simple to accomplish.

Surely you must be able to see why it would be convenient to not have to get up and remove a cartridge just to play another cartridge inserted in a different cartridge port? I don't see the confusion over the demand for such a feature or the reason why it should be this way that I'd have to remove a lengthy single player adventure like a JRPG inserted in the SuperNES slot that I'm in the middle of, just because I wanted to play a NES arcade conversion like Mario Bros. for a few minutes that's inserted in a completely different cartridge port.

Unless their hardware design dictates that it has to work this way, I'd like to see it changed. Even if you don't desire the bit of extra convenience it offers, it also would reduce wear & tear on something that isn't built to the highest standards of quality by removing the need to needlessly insert and remove cartridges from this thing.

And I assume it would remove a bit of consumer confusion as well. I'm not sure what this spits out for an error when more than one cartridge is inserted, but I'm sure a good percentage of their customers have encountered this issue and didn't realize initially just what was happening.

[JSoup]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/09/hyperkins_retron_5_console_allegedly_infringes_on_ the_rights_of_multiple_emulator_authors

[Tanooki]

Yeah good luck with those fools and their 'appears to be the same' claims. I'm curious to see if they get ignored or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their work as a basis for their own, but going by the time I've talked with the guy over the last couple months he doesn't sound like a code thief to me that had no idea what he's doing other than jacking code and taking credit for it.

What you have here most likely is a derivative piece of work, kind of like where you can go so far making a copy of a popular item, but not so closely it's stealing. Or better yet, the classic Nintendo vs Tengen lawsuit where Tengen smoked them for breaking their 10NES chip open and making a work around chip to defeat it to sell games. They reverse engineered the code and made their own, which is what this thing is doing from what I've gathered.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Yeah good luck with those fools and their 'appears to be the same' claims. I'm curious to see if they get ignored or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their work as a basis for their own, but going by the time I've talked with the guy over the last couple months he doesn't sound like a code thief to me that had no idea what he's doing other than jacking code and taking credit for it.

What you have here most likely is a derivative piece of work, kind of like where you can go so far making a copy of a popular item, but not so closely it's stealing. Or better yet, the classic Nintendo vs Tengen lawsuit where Tengen smoked them for breaking their 10NES chip open and making a work around chip to defeat it to sell games. They reverse engineered the code and made their own, which is what this thing is doing from what I've gathered.

Um, you don't understand. Even if it is a derivative work, they can't legally use the source code for anything because:

A - The source code license requires anyone who makes a modified / derivative version to release its modified source code, and
B - The emulators and their source code are not licensed for commercial use.

Hyperkin should not have done this, PERIOD. Don't try to defend them. They should have known better than to do this.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

All I have to say about that is: lol RetroArch. That thing is such a mess. At least on Ouya it is. but whatever. Not gonna pay that any attention. Emulators are open source. I'm not certain these guys have any right to be angry or more importantly, that anyone but them should care about this in the slightest.


I've had some time this afternoon with 2.0 beta 6 and like I see for the most part.


Since it would seem like Hyperkin is actually listening, there are still some issues I'd like fixed and additional features added.

I'll be as specific as possible so that these changes can be made swiftly.



Clock Speed Adjustments

Allow the user to adjust the speed of the emulated CPU of each console. Some games have slowdown when played at the default clockspeed while other games are much too difficult when played at the default clockspeed.

Add in an option to adjust each of the emulated CPUs: the 2A03, 5A22, 68000, SMS Z80, 4Mhz GB Z80, 8Mhz GBC Z80 and ARM7TDMI.
Allow users to adjust the speed as a percentage:

50% (half speed)
75% (three quarters speed)
100% (default normal speed)
110%
125%
150%
200% (double normal speed)
and finally let the last option be a user defined speed up to 400% (four times normal speed). Make three columns (hundreds, tens, ones) and let the user define their own values by pressing up or down on the d-pad to insert a value between 001 through 400.

Place a disclaimer that adjusting CPU clock speed can cause games to glitch or crash, and different games on the same console have different tolerances to clock speed manipulation. If Hyperkin wants to look at an emulator that does this perfectly, look at MasterBoy - a GameBoy/Color/SMS/GameGear emulator for PSP. The Z80 clockspeed adjustment there works flawlessly.


GameBoy Advance-enhanced GameBoy Color games

Towards the end of its life, several of the final GameBoy Color games produced had additional content unlockable when played on a GameBoy Advance. The Retron5 currently runs GBC games without the option to play them with the GBA emulator core, so none of these enhanced features can be accessed. PLease change this by adding the option to run GBC games on the GBA core.

In Game Specific Settings of Beta 6, there is a toggle for Hardware type from Auto, GB, CGB (this should be renamed GBC for clarity), and finally SGB. Please add in GBA here so when selected GBC games run through the GBA core and can thus have their additional extra features.


Super GameBoy Enhanced Sound

For a few games such as Donkey Kong '94, the Super GameBoy worked in conjunction with the Super Nintendo hardware to provide additional sound. For example, in Donkey Kong '94, Pauline would scream for help in a voice clip not present if you play the game on any other format. The Latest build does have SGB support and even has the SGB borders (a nice touch for those who want them), but the audio still does not play.


Misc changes:

When playing a game, the "Game Menu", including "Game Specific Settings" should be entirely incorporated in with the menu that first pops up called the "In-Game Menu". It is clunky to navigate these three different menus when you just want to adjust something when you play.

Leave the "Game Menu" from the main menu untouched, but duplicate the functions it has with the "In-Game menu" where there currently is the options like load state, save state, etc.



I will list additional change requests in the future, but for now I'm going to leave it at this.

[Kitsune Sniper]

All I have to say about that is: lol RetroArch. That thing is such a mess. At least on Ouya it is. but whatever. Not gonna pay that any attention. Emulators are open source. I'm not certain these guys have any right to be angry or more importantly, that anyone but them should care about this in the slightest.

...

The fact that this is your take on this is incredibly disappointing.

[RoryDropkick]

Yeah good luck with those fools and their 'appears to be the same' claims. I'm curious to see if they get ignored or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of their work as a basis for their own, but going by the time I've talked with the guy over the last couple months he doesn't sound like a code thief to me that had no idea what he's doing other than jacking code and taking credit for it.

What you have here most likely is a derivative piece of work, kind of like where you can go so far making a copy of a popular item, but not so closely it's stealing. Or better yet, the classic Nintendo vs Tengen lawsuit where Tengen smoked them for breaking their 10NES chip open and making a work around chip to defeat it to sell games. They reverse engineered the code and made their own, which is what this thing is doing from what I've gathered.


If it's just the credit they are wanting, Hyperkin may as well just give credit where credit is due I suppose. Better than having people get huffy over this whole thing.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

The emulation scene is just as incestuous as the clone scene in general with NOACs being copied by everyone with the same design flaws.

I believe that once the dust settles, the Ouya and Retron5's emulators will be equal because they'll be based on the same cores.

[Tanooki]

Um, you don't understand. Even if it is a derivative work, they can't legally use the source code for anything because:

A - The source code license requires anyone who makes a modified / derivative version to release its modified source code, and
B - The emulators and their source code are not licensed for commercial use.

Hyperkin should not have done this, PERIOD. Don't try to defend them. They should have known better than to do this.

See the thing is i don't care about those senseless pet project faux copyrights they put on stuff and never have. :) If they did jack their code, good, it clearly works. If they took it and reverse engineered it into what we use, that's even a hell of a lot better. You can only code an emulator for an old video game system only so many ways in a certain language before you bump into someone bitching they got ripped off. My take and Satoshi's on it seems to overlap. If they like I can paypal some cash for them to buy a nice cheese with their whine. If they want credit, they should get it, only if it's proven they did rip their code line for line or damn near enough to still count. If not, they need to shut it and stop complaining until they can post some irrefutable side by side visual proof.

[Pikkon]

They did not reverse engineer as the source code is freely available,all they did was port it over to run on there device but at the same time with out the authors consent.

Plain and simple there making money off of other people's work.

[clobber]

See the thing is i don't care about those senseless pet project faux copyrights they put on stuff and never have. :) If they did jack their code, good, it clearly works. If they took it and reverse engineered it into what we use, that's even a hell of a lot better. You can only code an emulator for an old video game system only so many ways in a certain language before you bump into someone bitching they got ripped off. My take and Satoshi's on it seems to overlap. If they like I can paypal some cash for them to buy a nice cheese with their whine. If they want credit, they should get it, only if it's proven they did rip their code line for line or damn near enough to still count. If not, they need to shut it and stop complaining until they can post some irrefutable side by side visual proof.

You're so ignorant and self-entitled my head hurts. Not that it matters to a douchebag as yourself, but your "irrefutable side by side visual proof" was linked in the Nintendo Life article right in this album: http://imgur.com/a/T6W4e

What Hyperkin did is take code from existing emulators they cannot legally use without also releasing their modified source code to, the GPL-licensed ones such as VBA or FCEUmm. They are also using emulators they cannot legally use PERIOD - non-commercial ones such as SNES9x. These are facts.

Since you're simply a neanderthal user that isn't capable of comprehending an ounce of this information, do the world a favor and sit this one out. You have nothing relevant to add to the conversation here and I had to register an account because your comments are so misled and vile.

[Tanooki]

If you say so kid. Whatever floats your boat. You don't know me in the least bit and if you knew people who do they'd be laughing at you for saying that first line there. I'm about the least self entitled person. Being entitled is one thing. Not giving a damn is another, and that is what I am, someone who doesn't give a damn in the least bit. I just laugh at it and have since the 90s with emulators where people slap their you can't use this code talk except for x y and z reasons and it always gets aped by someone and nearly not a damn thing has ever been done about it. A good recent example, Neo GeoX and it using swiped emulators. All the complaining there did nothing to shut that down either, ultimately they supposedly blew the terms of the contract and SNK went after them.

Edited out half my post, I have my reasons. :)

[Gameguy]

It's kind of funny if they actually stole the code. The console was released unfinished, not able to perform all the functions as advertised at the time of release(transferring saves), yet the main parts working were what they stole from other people unrelated to the company.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Why are we even discussing this?

If they're using code based on other emulators
If they're using code they wrote from scratch

Who frippin' cares!? The Retron5 experience is at least 50% with the hardware, with the UI, with the controller, etc. The basis of the emulation should not be important to anyone except for the creators. If what they claim is true then THEY should take it up with hyperkin. The rest of us should pay this issue absolutely no mind at all. It bloody shouldn't matter. The Retron5 UI is its own identity.

[Kitsune Sniper]

See the thing is i don't care about those senseless pet project faux copyrights they put on stuff and never have. :) If they did jack their code, good, it clearly works. If they took it and reverse engineered it into what we use, that's even a hell of a lot better. You can only code an emulator for an old video game system only so many ways in a certain language before you bump into someone bitching they got ripped off. My take and Satoshi's on it seems to overlap. If they like I can paypal some cash for them to buy a nice cheese with their whine. If they want credit, they should get it, only if it's proven they did rip their code line for line or damn near enough to still count. If not, they need to shut it and stop complaining until they can post some irrefutable side by side visual proof.

Remember kids, stealing is all right because Tanooki says so.

[Tanooki]

Hah wow...again as I said, I didn't care. I didn't say it was right. I know more what's going on now than I did before and alls well will end well and that's that. Satoshi is right, half the experience is the hardware itself. Let me put this to you. Those comparison images are a lot of fluff compared to substance. They don't show code side by side, they show similarites in how the code functions. As I said before, you can only code something only so many ways to efficiently function as needed, and some stuff can really just be coded a specific way or it won't work within the confines of hardware/operating system. When the time is right considering the blow up, an answer will appear.

[Gameguy]

Remember kids, stealing is all right because Tanooki says so.
So does Satoshi_Matrix apparently.


Why are we even discussing this?

If they're using code based on other emulators
If they're using code they wrote from scratch

Who frippin' cares!? The Retron5 experience is at least 50% with the hardware, with the UI, with the controller, etc. The basis of the emulation should not be important to anyone except for the creators. If what they claim is true then THEY should take it up with hyperkin. The rest of us should pay this issue absolutely no mind at all. It bloody shouldn't matter. The Retron5 UI is its own identity.
I wonder if he'd care if someone stole stuff from his website/s without giving credit.

Oh wait, I don't have to wonder.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224931-super-retro-trio/?p=2989401


It's kinda funny to see people who promote my stuff without me lifting a finger, but I had intended to share my content with you guys once I had it all done. I even contemplated keeping them all as private videos until I was finished. I guess I should have done that. I put considerable effort into making my content as detailed as possible, and when people don't credit me that really brothers me.

I guess it doesn't matter unless it's his work.

[clobber]

Hah wow...again as I said, I didn't care. I didn't say it was right. I know more what's going on now than I did before and alls well will end well and that's that. Satoshi is right, half the experience is the hardware itself. Let me put this to you. Those comparison images are a lot of fluff compared to substance. They don't show code side by side, they show similarites in how the code functions. As I said before, you can only code something only so many ways to efficiently function as needed, and some stuff can really just be coded a specific way or it won't work within the confines of hardware/operating system. When the time is right considering the blow up, an answer will appear.

Hahaha oh wow, my sides. You really are this stupid?

> They don't show code side by side

No, there is actually code side-by-side. You just cannot understand it, assembly might as well be hieroglyphs to you.

> you can only code something only so many ways to efficiently function as needed

Ignoring that 80% of the code in the SNES emulator alone was a MATCH, along with matching function calls, code structures and strings in other emulators profiled.

By all means, keep talking out of your ass and making yourself look stupid. This is fun for me :)

https://twitter.com/FioraAeterna/status/512790355591196673

[clobber]

So does Satoshi_Matrix apparently.


I wonder if he'd care if someone stole stuff from his website/s without giving credit.

Oh wait, I don't have to wonder.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224931-super-retro-trio/?p=2989401



I guess it doesn't matter unless it's his work.

LOL nice work outing Satoshi_Matrix as a hypocrite. I'm not surprised to find a user only caring about copyright when its convenient for them.

[JSoup]

Why are we even discussing this?

Because it's a RetroN5 related topic and this is a RetroN5 thread.

You have an amazingly irritating habit of trying to control what people do or do not talk about, man. Particularly so when it's a thread this large. Just let the discussion flow and it'll taper off if you don't stir the pot.

[Pikkon]

The thing is these guys don't understand,if the authors go after hyperkin over the retron 5 which will most likely happen there's a good chance hyperkin will pull the plug and then guess what.

No more firmware updates.

[Kitsune Sniper]

The thing is these guys don't understand,if the authors go after hyperkin over the retron 5 which will most likely happen there's a good chance hyperkin will pull the plug and then guess what.

No more firmware updates.

They could replace the offending code, release the changed source code as required by the GPL, and maybe switch to a different SNES core.

But nah, that's too much work.

[Tanooki]

Clobber you're amusing I'll give you that. All you seem to be able to do is insult me like a child, and then go on about stuff. To be straight with you, I know the situation all too well, but I was requested to no longer discuss it as a personal request. I know in general what was done and wasn't and at this rate until something is done about the entire matter I feel obliged not to answer if you're right or wrong in this case and to what degree.

Either way troll away have fun with it. If your barbs or the rest actually were at all worth getting angry over I'd be responding in an entirely different way. Have your fun, this will come to a conclusion eventually. I will say at least at this point, I agree with you on Satoshi being a hypocrite just as much as Jsoup there pointing out his habit to try and dominate and mold all conversations/reviews around him to his liking regardless of the reality of the situation or not.

Pikkon that is definitely a concern of mine too and has been for awhile. I don't see them at the least as kitsune said replacing code, but the rest I see no reason why not to either considering the terms of GPL.

[RoryDropkick]

Clobber you're amusing I'll give you that. All you seem to be able to do is insult me like a child, and then go on about stuff. To be straight with you, I know the situation all too well, but I was requested to no longer discuss it as a personal request. I know in general what was done and wasn't and at this rate until something is done about the entire matter I feel obliged not to answer if you're right or wrong in this case and to what degree.

Either way troll away have fun with it. If your barbs or the rest actually were at all worth getting angry over I'd be responding in an entirely different way. Have your fun, this will come to a conclusion eventually. I will say at least at this point, I agree with you on Satoshi being a hypocrite just as much as Jsoup there pointing out his habit to try and dominate and mold all conversations/reviews around him to his liking regardless of the reality of the situation or not.

Pikkon that is definitely a concern of mine too and has been for awhile. I don't see them at the least as kitsune said replacing code, but the rest I see no reason why not to either considering the terms of GPL.


Well said.

[clobber]

Clobber you're amusing I'll give you that. All you seem to be able to do is insult me like a child, and then go on about stuff. To be straight with you, I know the situation all too well, but I was requested to no longer discuss it as a personal request. I know in general what was done and wasn't and at this rate until something is done about the entire matter I feel obliged not to answer if you're right or wrong in this case and to what degree.

Either way troll away have fun with it. If your barbs or the rest actually were at all worth getting angry over I'd be responding in an entirely different way. Have your fun, this will come to a conclusion eventually. I will say at least at this point, I agree with you on Satoshi being a hypocrite just as much as Jsoup there pointing out his habit to try and dominate and mold all conversations/reviews around him to his liking regardless of the reality of the situation or not.

Pikkon that is definitely a concern of mine too and has been for awhile. I don't see them at the least as kitsune said replacing code, but the rest I see no reason why not to either considering the terms of GPL.

Yeah, nice way to back pedal. I smack you in the face with truth and evidence and suddenly you "know the situation all too well" whereas before you were talking absolute shit - nice try. You shitposting and being wrong makes ME the troll in your eyes. That's hilarious.

> I was requested to no longer discuss it as a personal request

Oh yeah? A buddy or shill connected to Hyperkin perchance? LOL

> I know in general what was done and wasn't

You know jack shit except for what I tell you.

> that is definitely a concern of mine too

"Oh noes! They're gonna take muh entertainment away!" You're goddamned right. Your concern is someone is going to take away support for the offending emulators. You couldn't care less what Hyperkin has done is illegal and respecting copyright of the authors code means nothing to a slobbering fanboy like you.

> I don't see them at the least as kitsune said replacing code

Luckily laws (and apparently facts and logic) aren't up to you, manchild.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

So does Satoshi_Matrix apparently.
I guess it doesn't matter unless it's his work.

Your reading too much into that. It does bother me....but I don't really care. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me nor the viewer. There have other instances like Brent Black (brentalfloss) stealing a photo I took of my GameBoy collection when I was doing my top 100 GB editorial for his Super Mario Land lyrics video without permission. I contacted him about it, and he was a total dick about it. That's what made me angry, not so much the theft itself. but later I realized it's not something that's even worth getting upset about at all. Who cares.

I would prefer it if I was contacted and asked but it ultimately doesn't matter. This is how I feel about RetroArch and Retron5 and Ouya and Xbox and Wii all sorts of emulators on other devices. They all tend to be based on the same code by the same authors.

RetroArch is complaining about something that happens all the time and is no way exclusive to Hyperkin. The only difference is that The Retron5 is sold on its emulators where other devices are sold on other features with emulators being secondary.

If this is true, then Hyperkin should add RetroArch to to the credits of the Retron5 accessed via the Konami Code. Maybe they already did. Either way, it's not an issue worth any real attention at all.

[clobber]

Your reading too much into that. It does bother me....but I don't really care. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me nor the viewer. There have other instances like Brent Black (brentalfloss) stealing a photo I took of my GameBoy collection when I was doing my top 100 GB editorial for his Super Mario Land lyrics video without permission. I contacted him about it, and he was a total dick about it. That's what made me angry, not so much the theft itself. but later I realized it's not something that's even worth getting upset about at all. Who cares.

I would prefer it if I was contacted and asked but it ultimately doesn't matter. This is how I feel about RetroArch and Retron5 and Ouya and Xbox and Wii all sorts of emulators on other devices. They all tend to be based on the same code by the same authors.

RetroArch is complaining about something that happens all the time and is no way exclusive to Hyperkin. The only difference is that The Retron5 is sold on its emulators where other devices are sold on other features with emulators being secondary.

If this is true, then Hyperkin should add RetroArch to to the credits of the Retron5 accessed via the Konami Code. Maybe they already did. Either way, it's not an issue worth any real attention at all.

> not something that's even worth getting upset about at all. Who cares.

Ah I get it, you're defeatist so everyone else has to be too.

> They all tend to be based on the same code by the same authors.

Um, the ports and forks that adhere to the licenses and release source code are actually doing it right, unlike Retron5.

> RetroArch is complaining about something that happens all the time and is no way exclusive to Hyperkin

Oh, well that clears it up then. Violating the licenses and code theft is a-okay. Got it. Gonna need citations on the "all the time" assertion since you claim to be so informed. LOL

> Hyperkin should add RetroArch to to the credits

Uh, no. That isn't at all the issue here, despite what you keep spouting off as facts. You're woefully (and possibly willfully) ignorant. If you want actual informed discussion on what needs to happen, you can read some facts right here: http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?53571-Retron-5-source-code-discussion&p=775987&viewfull=1#post775987

> it's not an issue worth any real attention at all.

Oh look, you're trying to craft the conversation around you again!

[JSoup]

> I was requested to no longer discuss it as a personal request

Oh yeah? A buddy or shill connected to Hyperkin perchance? LOL

I'd wager a guess at it being someone fairly unconnected to either of those things, rather just a general forum user. We're a small forum these days, but we're prone to the odd bitchfit or two in random topics. Some users have taken it upon themselves to try and head off these fits before they happen.

[Tanooki]

I don't even know why I'm responding to you anymore libretro, clubber. I'm not backpedaling I'm honoring a request. I made friends with that head retron tech back in June and we talk most days of the week casually online in messaging. He reads this and 3 other forums, just won't register to stave off problems and problem people. He saw your posts, saw what I wrote, and asked me to please not defend, argue, or try and refute or agree to your accusations that he and the company would be handling it shortly and I agreed. If that's a backpedal by your definition, fine. To me, I'm honoring a friends request, that's it.

That's my 'connection' to the company. I wish I was getting paid by them, any extra helps. So no, I do know jack shit as I had it detailed to me well enough to understand what is really going on again, and this was at the same time when I was requested to stop arguing about it on here with you. I know what hyperkin may or may not have done in consideration to all their emulator plugins in enough detail and I'm sure I was told what I was told so I wouldn't play 20 questions digging more.

They can't 'take' my entertainment away. I already own one, it works. So that logic on your part is a huge fail. Even if by some chance they were shut down, it is plugin based, and is has zero security, so it's not hard to imagine someone else making their own improvements in time much like how Neo Geo X was tweaked by hackers to give it more than the company would allow at Tommo. Like Satoshi said, and I did before, I don't really care about your beef with it as I have no hand in it. And as he said as well, retroarch being ripped off and complaining is nothing new, not like it hasn't happened a lot of times before and it's not exclusive to hyperkin. I'm not going to go as far as saying it's a non-issue like he did, but that it just is what it is and steps I'm sure are being taken.

[APE992]

Taking code someone else wrote and packaging it as a product for profit? Yeah that says many hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of paying a programmer to work for you. The Retron5 is a joke of a product any anyone saying "who cares" is a dumbfuck. You wouldn't like it if it was your work being ripped off.

[clobber]

I don't even know why I'm responding to you anymore libretro, clubber. I'm not backpedaling I'm honoring a request. I made friends with that head retron tech back in June and we talk most days of the week casually online in messaging. He reads this and 3 other forums, just won't register to stave off problems and problem people. He saw your posts, saw what I wrote, and asked me to please not defend, argue, or try and refute or agree to your accusations that he and the company would be handling it shortly and I agreed. If that's a backpedal by your definition, fine. To me, I'm honoring a friends request, that's it.

That's my 'connection' to the company. I wish I was getting paid by them, any extra helps. So no, I do know jack shit as I had it detailed to me well enough to understand what is really going on again, and this was at the same time when I was requested to stop arguing about it on here with you. I know what hyperkin may or may not have done in consideration to all their emulator plugins in enough detail and I'm sure I was told what I was told so I wouldn't play 20 questions digging more.

They can't 'take' my entertainment away. I already own one, it works. So that logic on your part is a huge fail. Even if by some chance they were shut down, it is plugin based, and is has zero security, so it's not hard to imagine someone else making their own improvements in time much like how Neo Geo X was tweaked by hackers to give it more than the company would allow at Tommo. Like Satoshi said, and I did before, I don't really care about your beef with it as I have no hand in it. And as he said as well, retroarch being ripped off and complaining is nothing new, not like it hasn't happened a lot of times before and it's not exclusive to hyperkin. I'm not going to go as far as saying it's a non-issue like he did, but that it just is what it is and steps I'm sure are being taken.

> I made friends with that head retron tech back in June and we talk most days of the week casually online in messaging.

Wowwwww total vindication. Thank you for outing yourself as a complete and utter shill, paid or otherwise. That would explain your arrogant and inflammatory statements regarding Hyperkin's code theft which no doubt mirrors their own attitudes.

> head retron tech

LOL You mean Product Developer, Chris Gallizzi?


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/chris-gallizzi/82/327/677
https://twitter.com/cgallizzi
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/27hc41/i_ama_product_developer_for_hyperkin_my_name_is


His reddit AMA is especially offensive while answering the question if they would use flash carts or not.



Q: Are there any plans to add support for flash-carts in the future?

A: nope
A: yeah, it's to protect our company

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/27hc41/i_ama_product_developer_for_hyperkin_my_name_is/ci0suet


Ironic as not allowing flash carts is to "protect" the company while code theft and violating licenses of open source emulators (some GPL, some NON-COMMERCIAL) is okay! Somebody definitely didn't do their homework, did they Chris? A total lack of technical professionalism. Or the moral and ethical compass is broken.

> I do know jack shit as I had it detailed to me well enough to understand what is really going on again

No son, here's what's REALLY fucking going on:


http://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations/
http://imgur.com/a/hrqSf (new evidence)
http://i.imgur.com/Ms3IuYH.png (new evidence)
http://imgur.com/a/T6W4e (original images released in the Nintendo Life article)
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/09/hyperkins_retron_5_console_allegedly_infringes_on_ the_rights_of_multiple_emulator_authors


Can you dig it, moron?

> I know what hyperkin may or may not have done in consideration to all their emulator plugins in enough detail

That means you're aware of the code theft and license violations. They literally shipped a product using code licensed as NON-COMMERCIAL. Emulators they cannot legally use such as Snes9x and GenesisPlus-GX. They STOLE code from GPL'd emulators (VBA, FCEUmm, etc) and also the RetroArch product, violating licenses by not releasing source code and acknowledgements.

> They can't 'take' my entertainment away.

Hate to break it to you but as a matter of fact they can. Hyperkin can no longer use NON-COMMERCIAL emulators in their product. Those will have to go. Sorry bro.

> it is plugin based, and is has zero security

Boy you can say that again. Talk about amateur security: https://twitter.com/FioraAeterna/status/512792945435500544

> I don't really care about your beef with it as I have no hand in it.

Kindly STFU and stop shilling. Your relationship with whoever at Hyperkin is a conflict of interest here which invalidates anything you say. No wonder Chris told you to shut your mouth as you make them look even worse.

> it just is what it is and steps I'm sure are being taken.

Dismissive attitude on the situation, which again, likely mirrors your buddy's at Hyperkin. The "steps" to be taken will be 100% compliance with the licenses of the code in use, meaning open sourcing of lifted emulator code and removal of the non-commercial ones. Glad to hear he reads these forums and others, so he knows what a careless, piece of shit thing they did.

[Leo_A]

Whatever merit your post might've had is destroyed by the way you've chosen to present yourself...

That said, I've said all along since it was confirmed, that the lack of re-programmable multicart support is a consequence of how the Retron 5 hardware works rather than a deliberate decision to not support these devices (Or even going as far as to actively block them from working). It doesn't communicate continuously with the cartridge, rather, it dumps the contents and then runs the resulting file.

That's why these don't work. It's not because Hyperkin didn't code in support for them since due to fear of legal repercussions, that they were scared to replicate the original hardware so closely that these 3rd party accessories still would work as they do on original hardware (Hardware where all patents long ago expired, leaving something like the SuperNes internal hardware as public property), etc.

This legality claim which is extremely dubious at best is just an easy public explanation/excuse to give for why these expensive accessories that many dedicated fans have invested in purchasing in recent years aren't compatible with the Retron 5, yet work in the other current clone on the marketplace.

At least SD rom loading has a slight bit of believably (Although AtGames including it in some Sega products, Legacy Engineering including it in the stillborn Flashback Portable, and other examples cast plenty of doubt over the validity of their "concerns" if IP holders could sue such manufacturers for including the feature), but they should've just been upfront with the multicart issue.

[clobber]

Whatever merit your post might've had is destroyed by the way you've chosen to present yourself...

That said, I've said all along since it was confirmed, that the lack of flash cart support is a consequence of how the Retron 5 hardware works rather than a deliberate decision to not support these devices (Or even going as far as to actively block them from working). It doesn't communicate continuously with the cartridge, rather, it dumps the contents and then runs the resulting file.

That's why these don't work, it's not because Hyperkin didn't code in support for them since due to fear of legal repercussions, they were scared to replicate the original hardware so closely that these 3rd party accessories still would work as they do on original hardware (Hardware where all patents long ago expired, leaving something like the SuperNes internal hardware as public property).

This legality claim which is extremely dubious at best is just an easy public explanation to give for why these expensive accessories aren't compatible with the Retron 5 yet work in the other current clone on the marketplace.

At least SD rom loading has a slight bit of believability (Although AtGames including it in some Sega products, Legacy Engineering including it in the stillborn Flashback Portable, and other examples cast plenty of doubt over the validity of their "concerns"), but they should've just been upfront with the multicart issue.

> Whatever merit your post might've had is destroyed by the way you've chosen to present yourself...

Nope, not true at all. I can address admitted shills any way I see fit given his previous comments and that doesn't at all take away the facts and evidence presented. Just hurt feelings. If you have a problem with anything I said, that means you weren't going to objectively read in the first place :)

7639

[Leo_A]

And that doesn't make any sense.

[Gameguy]

They can't 'take' my entertainment away. I already own one, it works.
I thought you had to send yours back for a replacement because it crapped out on you?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

How is 2.0 V6 for you guys?

I haven't noticed any real changes to the NES/Famicom/Genesis cores, but the SNES core is a bit better and the GB core is greatly expanded.

I've noticed that when navigating the menus returning from playing a Super GameBoy or GameBoy Color game, the dpad is sluggish to respond for a few seconds upon exiting the game back to the main menu. This doesn't seem to happen with other cores, or original GB games that don't have SGB support.

Can someone confirm this happens with their Retron5 too?

[RoryDropkick]

How is 2.0 V6 for you guys?

I haven't noticed any real changes to the NES/Famicom/Genesis cores, but the SNES core is a bit better and the GB core is greatly expanded.

I've noticed that when navigating the menus returning from playing a Super GameBoy or GameBoy Color game, the dpad is sluggish to respond for a few seconds upon exiting the game back to the main menu. This doesn't seem to happen with other cores, or original GB games that don't have SGB support.

Can someone confirm this happens with their Retron5 too?


It seems to be working fine for me. There hasn't been any slow response to the menu. One issue I have found is that cheats for Genesis games decided to not work.

[Tanooki]

Clobber...riiight. If having a friend makes me a shill in your eyes, that's fine as your opinion really doesn't matter to me. I don't feel I'll base who I associate with on who might offend you. And no it's not Gallizi, he's in the states and an American, the head tech is a new zelander working out of their hong kong office. It's an interesting 12 hour time difference so to talk one or the other of us has to be on very late or very early in the morning so I catch him at work, or at home after the fact while I'm at work. I think you perhaps have invested in a Jump To Conclusions Mat?

Again, I do actually know what's going on, spam any link you want, it's not really going to surprise me at this rate. Again with the name calling, what are you five? You're catching on pretty quick without me saying a word what I'm aware of, shocking, you're catching up.

And yes they can't take my entertainment away. Do you need some reading comprehension classes? I bought the system, it's in my possession. Are you planning to send the GPL shutzstaffel to my home and commandeer my system? They could shut them down tomorrow, it won't make the existing systems stop working magically, so no, they can't take what I own, that's what I meant by it.

Of course I can say it again, there is zero security. I wouldn't even call it amateur as they didn't bother to add any. There's trying, and not bothering, and the R5 leans towards not bothering.

I'm dismissive of the situation because the damage is already done and nothing can be done about it until Hyperkin does what I know they're planning to do for as much as I was told anyway. To be straight with you, not that you'll buy it anyway, the tech is on your side and wants that GPL thing taken care of. He's quite aware of the situation obviously with management and what was, is and will be going on with it. I have no idea what they will be doing about snes/genesis end of things, but the rest under GPL I'm sure you can put two and two together on that one quite easily.


Leo you're correct. The system doesn't read the carts, it just dumps them so you can't use a flash device and it's really that simple. Just to be clear though, flash cart and multicart aren't the same, some multicarts do work, if they can find an emulation header/crc data to pick it up. I dug and found the data on the Supervision 115in1 I own, and that one does work.

Gameguy It's replaced, UPS decided to be douchy and hold it, I'll have it Monday. My general understanding is that the current systems being shipped versus the early stuff at launch has far better quality control checks being done so problematic systems don't get out there.

[Tanooki]

And in lighter news I got 2 new and 5 small used lego sets in the mail in the last two days. They're very relaxing and they don't talk back and have attitude around them either. Imagine that.