RIP RetroVGS/Coleco Chameleon: Retro Console Epic Disaster (2015-2016)

[DreamTR]

Had they come with anything that appeared remotely credible, with a more reasonable price and funding goal, people would've been all over it. But there was never any clear picture of what they wanted to do other than that of cartridge-shaped things being put into a console. It was like everything else was thought of on the spot to fill in the gaps.

And that's spot on. Other than, "we want to make a console", they don't have experience with it but you have a lot of people that do the same thing and make themselves "part of the scene" or become more important (or seem more important than they really are).

I worked in product development for a system (the NEX), accessory development, wrote for a video game magazine for a number of years, etc. I am a multi brick and mortar business owner right now with 3 well established arcades in the South, but you don't see me have bios about all this and try to make myself seem a bit more important than I really am. (I am more of a grumpy person that calls out bs but hides in the shadows these days) In general, I like the hobby. I like video games. Etc. I am sure SoCal Mike has(d) great intentions for this, but inexperience can catch up to people and as it is with someone else i will not name that makes himself look like the most important person on earth with "not asking for coverage" (lol) a lot of this can come back to bite you in the ass.

I still don't get how anyone thought this was a great idea. I understand saving the money on the tooling (tooling costs are expensive) but you know, there is literally nothing concrete planned except for hopes and dreams here. If people want to pre-order that like they do for vaporware pinball machines and lose their money, so be it. I'll just wait until it (anything) is actually released.

[Greg2600]

This project had two major flaws, one from the outset, the other just grew and grew.

Purpose: Why make this system, and who will buy it (putting costs aside)? RVGS never could answer this cleanly. Is it a game system for collectors who enjoy having new CIB games (almost regardless of quality)? If so, can they sell to enough of those people (no chance)? These questions were never properly answered. If they had been, they would have been better able to identify their target audience and market to them.

Leadership: Obviously Mike Kennedy was the driving force on this project from day one. Over time he enlisted the help of John Carlsen and Steve Woitka, as well as others such as Gary Kitchen and Kevin Kevtris Morton, et al. That being said, Mike has been accused and/or proven to over exaggerate supporters, over promise features, and ridiculously over react to criticism. In fact it was so bad that on the Carl Williams interview (below), he took a swipe at Kevtris, which shocked Steve Woitka (had no idea there was any problems), before being stopped by John Carlsen. Carlsen had to interrupt Mike several times, to either stop him from veering off topic, or correcting things he said. I like Mike, his magazine is a great read, and he's 110% passionate about retro gaming. However, on this project in particular, he was a complete disaster. His interaction with the public was mind boggling. Plus he seemed to fail to keep his partners properly appraised of the growing negativity.

[Graham Mitchell]

Hey dreamTR, I loved my genNEX. It got me into famicom collecting. I appreciated it for what it was.

[Steven]

IMO it makes more sense for them to create quality new games for SNES, Genesis, NES and such. Tons of users already, and diehard fans of those systems are always looking for new quality software.

But I guess they wanted their own system and their own unique branding. Understandable, but not very feasible. Honestly, I love retro gaming but I love it my way. And my way certainly doesn't include buying a new system made in 2016 at $300 (or even $200) to play retro-styled games. I got my SNES (the king of retro IMHO)... I'm good. But if you made a new game for SNES, now I'm ready to buy...

[Kevincal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmBI9Vrn7lo

[Tanooki]

Starts so high, falls even lower. It's a shame really. I really do hope he's not blowing smoke and got a reality check and refigures this all out. If he can get it to market Ouya priced with cheap carts like old school Gameboy priced, he'd have a fighting chance and given it had something I'd like to play I'd buy it at that point.

[TonyTheTiger]

The IGG failing to fund was probably a blessing in disguise for the team. As it is they just wound up with a lot of bad PR but imagine the shitshow it could have turned into if they ran into problems after collecting nearly $2 million. I'm skeptical of crowdsourcing for these massive development budgets for this very reason, among a few others.

[Greg2600]

IMO it makes more sense for them to create quality new games for SNES, Genesis, NES and such. Tons of users already, and diehard fans of those systems are always looking for new quality software.

But I guess they wanted their own system and their own unique branding. Understandable, but not very feasible. Honestly, I love retro gaming but I love it my way. And my way certainly doesn't include buying a new system made in 2016 at $300 (or even $200) to play retro-styled games. I got my SNES (the king of retro IMHO)... I'm good. But if you made a new game for SNES, now I'm ready to buy...

Firstly, sure the developers would be enthused about selling their games to an audience numbering in the thousands, as opposed to the hundreds like most classic console homebrew. However, I think most of us continue to be skeptical that RVGS could ever sell 10K units, even at $150-200.

Secondly, there's sure been a lot of drooling over on Atariage for KevTris's proposed classic system (hardware core/emulated) unit. That is until they're asked to pony up the $300 it's probably going to cost for him to sell it and break even. Even he admitted he's hoping to sell between 500 and 1000. I'm just not sure RVGS in ANY form would ever be viable to the masses.


The IGG failing to fund was probably a blessing in disguise for the team. As it is they just wound up with a lot of bad PR but imagine the shit show it could have turned into if they ran into problems after collecting nearly $2 million. I'm skeptical of croudsourcing for these massive development budgets for this very reason, among a few others.

Well thanks to IGG constrictions, they cannot simply end the campaign, so those who paid are sort of forced to wait another 30+ days for its conclusion!

[gameofyou]

IMO it makes more sense for them to create quality new games for SNES, Genesis, NES and such. Tons of users already, and diehard fans of those systems are always looking for new quality software.

But I guess they wanted their own system and their own unique branding. Understandable, but not very feasible. Honestly, I love retro gaming but I love it my way. And my way certainly doesn't include buying a new system made in 2016 at $300 (or even $200) to play retro-styled games. I got my SNES (the king of retro IMHO)... I'm good. But if you made a new game for SNES, now I'm ready to buy...

I think the point was that it would be much more powerful than existing retro consoles, with much more memory capability.

[Greg2600]

Homebrew developers don't make any money on releases for old consoles. This would have been an avenue to sell thousands of copies at full retail, instead of a hundred. If it worked. Also, making money on the many digital play stores is also very difficult, due to the fees. You have to create a runaway hit. They should have just stuck to designing a system that played newly developed retro style games, cart based or not.

[Kwyjibo]

I don't see who this console is made for. From a gaming perspective, buying a console as limited as this one for such a high price isn't a good move. How important is having a cartridge to play on? In many(probably most) cases todays, games can be played from a hard drive, which is more convenient and much faster than a DVD. DLC and patches are out of the question as well, unless they add some internal storage.

From a collecting perspective, who wants to buy a console that looks like a Jaguar? I don't think the Jaguar looks bad, but a collector who already has one would probably rather have a unique shape for this console, especially if they put their consoles on display. And pretty much anyone who is a collector always has something else they want to collect. Collectors are going to have to choose between adding to their current collection, or buying one of these.

I guess these are targeted at people who are desperate enough for a new cartridge-based console that they would be willing to pay the high price tag and put up with its limited capabilities(relative to new modern consoles).

[TonyTheTiger]

Homebrew developers don't make any money on releases for old consoles. This would have been an avenue to sell thousands of copies at full retail, instead of a hundred. If it worked. Also, making money on the many digital play stores is also very difficult, due to the fees. You have to create a runaway hit. They should have just stuck to designing a system that played newly developed retro style games, cart based or not.

The thing is, newly developed retro style games aren't what people would buy a dedicated console for. Retro VGS had its wires crossed from the beginning. New games, retro styled or not, are happily played on modern consoles and through modern digital services because, as new games, that's where they belong. People will buy clones, flashcarts, and Retrons because they want to play actual retro games. It's a niche but a relatively lively one. Meanwhile, anyone who is into games like Shovel Knight isn't really thinking "man, I wish I could play this on a retro-but-not-really console built specifically for it." That's not even a niche--it's just plain nonexistent. As a vanity project, sure, I can buy there would be 50ish, maybe even 100ish, people out there who'd be game. But to think that it was something that could have been sold at retail, let alone afforded shelf space at brick and mortar, is just too preposterous to entertain.

This is really an issue of scale if anything. While many people thought the concept of the Retro VGS was crackers from the start, I think everyone would have given the project a hell of lot more slack if it had a much more realistic goal of selling a few dozen units to people who like kooky shit. Those people do exist and they did raise over $50,000. If this were framed as a personal dream, just to be able to say they made it happen and fulfilled the goal of producing something that would technically qualify as "a video game console" then this may have actually worked.

[Gentlegamer]

Ben Heck stopped by Atari Age and dropped wisdom: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3335423

[Tanooki]

Good read, mostly agree with him. VGS out of the picture, I don't agree that physical media is bad. He's clearly gone over to the side of not caring what you own or how much you pay to not own but just use something until that's conveniently revoked. A cart is forever(or until it fails.) A digital rental (download) expires when the owner decides you've had enough, or when they pull it and your system dies so you can't replace it. That's the line I do not like to cross but rarely and it won't be much money at all thrown at it either because of that. GoG.com is withstanding on that, it's all there. They are fooling themselves and just being fools marketing it as retro where there's nothing to look back on it with as it's new, other than a failed systems skin wrapped around it like some reanimated corpse.

[gameofyou]

There is a recent interview with the developers at NG.DEV, in which they address the Retro VGS. They make some interesting points. Unfortunately, due to piracy, NG.DEV won't be doing any additional Dreamcast ports. The question about Retro VGS is below:

Archaïc : The new product you’re talking is RetroVGS console, is’nt it? RetroVGS announced adapting Gunlord on their console. Why this partnership?
Timm : No. I’m speaking about something different, an arcade hardware. The RetroVGS is not really an existing product right now. The RetroVGS is more an idea for now. We choose the RetroVGS as a potential port platform for Gunlord because we like cartridges and the way the crowd funding campaign is setup there is no risk for us in waisting time and money. If we port to say Wii-U we don’t know if only 2.000 people buy it or 20.000. It would be risky at the low sales price of digital downloads. RetroVGS will also offer better service to developers than the big platform holders.

[Gameguy]

Unfortunately, due to piracy, NG.DEV won't be doing any additional Dreamcast ports.
I remember a time when people made games for obsolete unsupported game consoles for fun, not to somehow expect to get rich with minimal sales for a console few people still have.

[Graham Mitchell]

I remember a time when people made games for obsolete unsupported game consoles for fun, not to somehow expect to get rich with minimal sales for a console few people still have.

They make a killing off those MVS carts. $500 a pop.

[gameofyou]

I remember a time when people made games for obsolete unsupported game consoles for fun, not to somehow expect to get rich with minimal sales for a console few people still have.
I don't mind supporting developers who are creating games for classic systems. NG.DEV are full-time developers. If your business isn't making money, you won't be around very long.

[Gentlegamer]

Merry Christmas, DP!

RetroVGS is now... Coleco with a Wii controller?

http://nebula.wsimg.com/62033aff7f0f4c31610fa1eb7152f28a?AccessKeyId=E6474 32F0367AB6020A0&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[davidbrit2]

Merry Christmas, DP!

RetroVGS is now... Coleco with a Wii controller?


Look at it.

Look at it and laugh.

[portnoyd]

Good news: At least the only ones losing money on this are moronic investors getting into something they know nothing about.

Bad news: We have to deal with another 3 months of a delusional SoCalMike thinking this is going to be a success.

Good news: It'll still tank because it has no games. No, no one cares about PreNES anything anymore.

Bad news: there will still be goobers buying this, unbeknownst to them they are buying a jaguar shaped paperweight

Good news: You'll ultimately be able to find these at 5 Below if you really want one.

[Tanooki]

Jagleco? Colguar? I'm confused. Why is this branded with Coleco now? I know someone owns the name as less than a decade ago I owned this bitchin little handheld that Coleco branded right on the front that played like 20 Master System games which was a lot of fun.

[Tupin]

More proof that the knuckleheads who decided to buy the naming rights to Coleco have no idea what makes a good use of the name.

I too look forward to the clearance of these at Five Below in a year and a half, assuming this doesn't vaporware away.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Merry Christmas, DP!

RetroVGS is now... Coleco with a Wii controller?

No that's not what this is.
Coleco is licensing the Retro VGS and is thus financing it so there is no need for a second . indiegogo or kickstarter. The Retro VGS itself is not a Colecovision or anything like that. It's a new console that will play indie games on a physical cartridge based format.
The controller for the system is being provided by Interworks, which has an existing WiiU controller design. The controller for this system will not be a WiiU controller, and probably not look like the one shown in the mock up image. All images of the Retro VGS are 3D mock ups and not anything real.


[QUOTE=davidbrit2;2033102]Look at it.

Look at it and laugh.
You're looking at a 3D render model. Not a real prototype of any sort.



Good news: At least the only ones losing money on this are moronic investors getting into something they know nothing about.

Bad news: We have to deal with another 3 months of a delusional SoCalMike thinking this is going to be a success.

Good news: It'll still tank because it has no games. No, no one cares about PreNES anything anymore.

Bad news: there will still be goobers buying this, unbeknownst to them they are buying a jaguar shaped paperweight

Good news: You'll ultimately be able to find these at 5 Below if you really want one.

Maybe, maybe not. it all depends on what happens. You shouldn't be making any predictions right now. There's too little information to go on. I'm not saying that I'm sold on the Retro VGS but I don't think there's enough concrete information at the moment to be negative.




Jagleco? Colguar? I'm confused. Why is this branded with Coleco now? I know someone owns the name as less than a decade ago I owned this bitchin little handheld that Coleco branded right on the front that played like 20 Master System games which was a lot of fun.

It would appear Coleco is privately funding the Retro VGS rather than Kennedy forced to try indigogo for a second time. According to the press statement, he thing will be for sale starting in February.....which means that somewhere between the indiegogo campaign failing and now, there must be yet completely unshown, unseen working prototype. That leads me to have hope that this thing might be worth a look afterall.



More proof that the knuckleheads who decided to buy the naming rights to Coleco have no idea what makes a good use of the name.

I too look forward to the clearance of these at Five Below in a year and a half, assuming this doesn't vaporware away.

Again what I said to portnoyd: don't jump to conclusions based on nothing but an announcement. If you're going to be negative, then at least do it when there's something to base that view on. Right now, we know next to nothing other than Coleco is going to be financing and thus branding the Retro VGS.

[Bojay1997]

Good news: At least the only ones losing money on this are moronic investors getting into something they know nothing about.

Bad news: We have to deal with another 3 months of a delusional SoCalMike thinking this is going to be a success.

Good news: It'll still tank because it has no games. No, no one cares about PreNES anything anymore.

Bad news: there will still be goobers buying this, unbeknownst to them they are buying a jaguar shaped paperweight

Good news: You'll ultimately be able to find these at 5 Below if you really want one.

It sounds like they are still going to go back to Kickstarter as they are showing a Kickstarter logo on their web page next to the new "Coleco" branded Photoshop. I suspect "Coleco" didn't actually make a financial investment, but probably agreed to provide IP rights to their name and some sales support at the Toy Show in exchange for a percentage of sales and/or the Kickstarter funds.

[Bojay1997]

[QUOTE=Gentlegamer;2033101]Merry Christmas, DP!

RetroVGS is now... Coleco with a Wii controller?

No that's not what this is.
Coleco is licensing the Retro VGS and is thus financing it so there is no need for a second . indiegogo or kickstarter. The Retro VGS itself is not a Colecovision or anything like that. It's a new console that will play indie games on a physical cartridge based format.
The controller for the system is being provided by Interworks, which has an existing WiiU controller design. The controller for this system will not be a WiiU controller, and probably not look like the one shown in the mock up image. All images of the Retro VGS are 3D mock ups and not anything real.



You're looking at a 3D render model. Not a real prototype of any sort.




Maybe, maybe not. it all depends on what happens. You shouldn't be making any predictions right now. There's too little information to go on. I'm not saying that I'm sold on the Retro VGS but I don't think there's enough concrete information at the moment to be negative.





It would appear Coleco is privately funding the Retro VGS rather than Kennedy forced to try indigogo for a second time. According to the press statement, he thing will be for sale starting in February.....which means that somewhere between the indiegogo campaign failing and now, there must be yet completely unshown, unseen working prototype. That leads me to have hope that this thing might be worth a look afterall.




Again what I said to portnoyd: don't jump to conclusions based on nothing but an announcement. If you're going to be negative, then at least do it when there's something to base that view on. Right now, we know next to nothing other than Coleco is going to be financing and thus branding the Retro VGS.

It seems like you're the one speculating here. The Retro VGS official Facebook page is showing both a Toy Show and a Kickstarter logo over the new "Coleco" VGS photo. I suspect (and I will admit it's speculation, but I feel pretty confident about it) that "Coleco" will not be providing funds and has simply lent their IP (which appears to be just the brand name) and perhaps some existing space that they had reserved at the Toy Show to try and sell this product that doesn't exist. If they book orders, great. If not, they haven't lost much but a bit of time and they probably have some kind of equity interest in whatever company Mike has set up to develop and sell this "product".

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Ah, my apologies for being misinformed. All I'm saying is that there's nothing really new to report on at the moment other than Coleco is now involved and it apparently will be shown in February.

[Tanooki]

Well hopefully they can get the help needed in the next two months to get beyond the hot glue shotgun blast of random parts on that cardboard that was shown to go with the molding they paid for already.

[TonyTheTiger]

More proof that the knuckleheads who decided to buy the naming rights to Coleco have no idea what makes a good use of the name.

Seriously. Talk about the inmates running the asylum. It's a Coleco branded Jaguar with a Wii U controller. This is absurd on its face even if you disregard everything about the Retro VGS debacle.



You're looking at a 3D render model. Not a real prototype of any sort.

Which is no excuse for it to look like this. If you're going to put out a render you don't put out an absurd one just because you have nothing better to show.


Again what I said to portnoyd: don't jump to conclusions based on nothing but an announcement. If you're going to be negative, then at least do it when there's something to base that view on. Right now, we know next to nothing other than Coleco is going to be financing and thus branding the Retro VGS.

An announcement is something. So is a render. Applying Coleco branding to the Retro VGS is the same weird anti-logic that caused it to look like a Jaguar: Associate it with something retro--anything will do. There's no rhyme or reason to any of it. No consistency in vision. It's classic gaming madlibs.

[Tupin]

I'm amazed that they think they're going to the Toy Show with this thing, and that they can promote themselves off of the Coleco name. No "normal" retro fans care about pre-NES anymore and even fewer like the Jaguar. Even fewer want the games it offers.

[Bandicat]

Why would you make it look like an Atari Jaguar? That doesn't make any sense. The Jaguar looks like a toilet bowl.

[leatherrebel5150]

Why would you make it look like an Atari Jaguar? That doesn't make any sense. The Jaguar looks like a toilet bowl.

I never understood why people get so caught up in the fact they are using the jaguar shell. Its just a friggen mold they bought because it was available and saved them the step in the console making process. I by no means am defending anything they do but come on if the shape of the console is your biggest concern then you have not been paying attention to what's going on with this thing

[Gameguy]

Its just a friggen mold they bought because it was available and saved them the step in the console making process.
I'm pretty sure he wanted the shell first and then decided to design a console around what could fit inside the shell, the guy just got lucky with tracking the molds down and decided to do something with them. The most successful thing the molds were used for were making dental equipment.

[OldSchoolGamer]

No "normal" retro fans care about pre-NES anymore


Wow I was not aware that you had the final word on what is considered "normal" for a retro fan...........:fist:

[Melf]

I never understood why people get so caught up in the fact they are using the jaguar shell. Its just a friggen mold they bought because it was available and saved them the step in the console making process. I by no means am defending anything they do but come on if the shape of the console is your biggest concern then you have not been paying attention to what's going on with this thing

I agree. I don't mind them using the shell and understand the reasoning behind it. My only issue is that it doesn't have a cover. I always hated that about the Jaguar design.

[Tanooki]

Perhaps in my weakened state this month and being physically tired I'm in some screwed up forgiving mood, but I decided to check back with the atariage forum thread that's cross linked into this mess and the main admin of the site locked it up tight and had a member form a new thread over the Coleco Chameleon. Now what's interesting is the starter post, seems Mike opened his mouth just a wee bit and decided to show some level of humility and remorse over the RetroVGS. If one cares to take him at face value it maybe worthwhile to read the thread now: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247145-coleco-chameleon-hardware-speculations/ and then perhaps give the dude a soft pass up until the trade show 2 months from now when this is supposed to be unveiled. I find it interesting that the owners of Coleco Holdings appear to be neck deep in this and aren't just licensing a name supposedly for a fast buck but want to revitalize the Coleco name with a good working system and bring it to market. Mike says he worked with them(and others?) to trash the old VGS, keep a few components though, and have greatly reduced the price of the system so that $300 thing is dead and buried.

Here's what mike said if you don't want to go link trolling:


Hello Everyone.

It is the end of a very tumultuous year for me and in the spirit of Christmas and the holidays I wanted to come in here and ask those of you who will listen to let the past be the past as it relates to this (ad)venture. RETRO VGS is the past and COLECO Chameleon is the future. The Chameleon is not just a rebranded Retro VGS. Despite sharing some of the same internal components the hardware has been completely redesigned to lower the cost while maintaining much of its ability to play a wide variety of games in a variety of ways. To boil this all down to its essence we just want to produce a product that is different, affordable and will bring joy to people’s lives. The market will ultimately decide if we are crazy enough to believe a cartridge console can stand its ground in this age of digital delivery. There are clearly lots of people on both sides of this fence and ultimately it will all come down to the games that can be played and if they are compelling enough to vie for peoples hard earned money.

The COLECO branding was a business decision I made to bring instant brand recognition to the Chameleon. But I did not enter into this licensing agreement lightly, knowing that if done so, we have a lot to live up to. COLECO made some very influential, high quality and fun video gaming and electronic products during their time and we will try endlessly to carry on that tradition with the Chameleon. The recognition of having the COLECO logo on the system and the (game and console) boxes will make the Chameleon immediately identifiable by millions of people right from the beginning. In the end this is a good thing for all involved including us, our customers, our suppliers and distributors, our contract manufactures, potential retailers and probably most importantly to game developers. Mark and Chris at River West/Coleco Holdings are also very behind this product and will be helping out in a variety of ways, beginning by inviting us into their booth at Toy Fair which is where they want to officially begin rebuilding this brand in more concrete ways.

We know we have a mountain to climb and are prepared to do what it takes to plant a flag at the top. I will once again apologize to all of you for at times dissing some individuals and this community but it was hard being criticized by a group of my Atari and classic game lovin’ peers. I let it get to me on occasion and I do regret all of it. I am aware that we gave you all plenty to poke fun at and criticize but in the end, I believe the product will be much better for going through all of this. In my mind, the best way for me to apologize once and for all is to ultimately create a game system that will make most of you turn a 180 and win over your support and positive influence. And given the chance that is what I will do.

All I ask is moving forward into the New Year is you try and give the Chameleon a fair chance to stand on its own, and again forget about the past. Let it speak for itself when we reveal it to you all early this New Year. And finally, let’s respect one another and our opinions (some advice I am directing towards myself) and that goes for both believers and non-believers of what we are trying to do. In the end, we all love and are passionate about video games and sometimes this passion causes us to do uncharacteristic things.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and I hope you all have a very Happy New Year!

- Mike


I'm willing to give it a couple months. Up until the crap over it being $300, the macaroni and cardboard project board, and the vaporware game promises I was in for a new console when I figured it would be Retron5 priced or less with cheap (GBA-ish - $30~) games. Maybe they figured out something that actually could succeed with the added help of the Coleco side of things and perhaps others. Supposedly before the VGS went off the handle into overpriced hell the original project was based directly upon Beaglebone BLACK http://beagleboard.org/BLACK ...considering what those cost individually for a consumer ($50-55), and what costs could drop bought in bulk of 10s or 100s of thousands of systems, that could do it and it's not weak either. Something I think that could be interesting, Coleco licenses stuff out, that's why there's the Coleco Flashback which has some great games on it. Perhaps if it's not a BeagleBlack setup, perhaps it will be a cheap Android box (like Flashbacks or Retron5) with some moderately decent cheap parts inside to keep it in price between the flashbacks and R5 at retail and you'll see some Coleco console 80s games released perhaps all on 1 cart to help sell it, or a few compilation carts which would be pretty cool.

[Greg2600]

I wouldn't mind if they took the cost savings and applied them to a new case design, even if it made it more expensive. A Coleco branded system using Atari designed aesthetics? Just doesn't sit well with me.

The economics remain shoddy at best though, not sure what developers will jump on board if the install base winds up being less than 1,000 units....

[Bandicat]

I never understood why people get so caught up in the fact they are using the jaguar shell. Its just a friggen mold they bought because it was available and saved them the step in the console making process. I by no means am defending anything they do but come on if the shape of the console is your biggest concern then you have not been paying attention to what's going on with this thing

Many people mocked it for looking like a toilet bowl back when it was released. Why create a new product that is prime for the same criticism? They have support from Coleco and are prominently using their name. Wouldn't it make much more sense to make the thing more original and "Coleco" looking?

[TonyTheTiger]

No matter what else changes, if they continue to operate as if this is anything other than a vanity project it's just going to run into the same problems. I don't necessarily doubt their ability to make the thing. I do, however, doubt their ability to sell more than a few hundred units.

[Bojay1997]

Perhaps in my weakened state this month and being physically tired I'm in some screwed up forgiving mood, but I decided to check back with the atariage forum thread that's cross linked into this mess and the main admin of the site locked it up tight and had a member form a new thread over the Coleco Chameleon. Now what's interesting is the starter post, seems Mike opened his mouth just a wee bit and decided to show some level of humility and remorse over the RetroVGS. If one cares to take him at face value it maybe worthwhile to read the thread now: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247145-coleco-chameleon-hardware-speculations/ and then perhaps give the dude a soft pass up until the trade show 2 months from now when this is supposed to be unveiled. I find it interesting that the owners of Coleco Holdings appear to be neck deep in this and aren't just licensing a name supposedly for a fast buck but want to revitalize the Coleco name with a good working system and bring it to market. Mike says he worked with them(and others?) to trash the old VGS, keep a few components though, and have greatly reduced the price of the system so that $300 thing is dead and buried.

Here's what mike said if you don't want to go link trolling:


Hello Everyone.

It is the end of a very tumultuous year for me and in the spirit of Christmas and the holidays I wanted to come in here and ask those of you who will listen to let the past be the past as it relates to this (ad)venture. RETRO VGS is the past and COLECO Chameleon is the future. The Chameleon is not just a rebranded Retro VGS. Despite sharing some of the same internal components the hardware has been completely redesigned to lower the cost while maintaining much of its ability to play a wide variety of games in a variety of ways. To boil this all down to its essence we just want to produce a product that is different, affordable and will bring joy to people’s lives. The market will ultimately decide if we are crazy enough to believe a cartridge console can stand its ground in this age of digital delivery. There are clearly lots of people on both sides of this fence and ultimately it will all come down to the games that can be played and if they are compelling enough to vie for peoples hard earned money.

The COLECO branding was a business decision I made to bring instant brand recognition to the Chameleon. But I did not enter into this licensing agreement lightly, knowing that if done so, we have a lot to live up to. COLECO made some very influential, high quality and fun video gaming and electronic products during their time and we will try endlessly to carry on that tradition with the Chameleon. The recognition of having the COLECO logo on the system and the (game and console) boxes will make the Chameleon immediately identifiable by millions of people right from the beginning. In the end this is a good thing for all involved including us, our customers, our suppliers and distributors, our contract manufactures, potential retailers and probably most importantly to game developers. Mark and Chris at River West/Coleco Holdings are also very behind this product and will be helping out in a variety of ways, beginning by inviting us into their booth at Toy Fair which is where they want to officially begin rebuilding this brand in more concrete ways.

We know we have a mountain to climb and are prepared to do what it takes to plant a flag at the top. I will once again apologize to all of you for at times dissing some individuals and this community but it was hard being criticized by a group of my Atari and classic game lovin’ peers. I let it get to me on occasion and I do regret all of it. I am aware that we gave you all plenty to poke fun at and criticize but in the end, I believe the product will be much better for going through all of this. In my mind, the best way for me to apologize once and for all is to ultimately create a game system that will make most of you turn a 180 and win over your support and positive influence. And given the chance that is what I will do.

All I ask is moving forward into the New Year is you try and give the Chameleon a fair chance to stand on its own, and again forget about the past. Let it speak for itself when we reveal it to you all early this New Year. And finally, let’s respect one another and our opinions (some advice I am directing towards myself) and that goes for both believers and non-believers of what we are trying to do. In the end, we all love and are passionate about video games and sometimes this passion causes us to do uncharacteristic things.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and I hope you all have a very Happy New Year!

- Mike


I'm willing to give it a couple months. Up until the crap over it being $300, the macaroni and cardboard project board, and the vaporware game promises I was in for a new console when I figured it would be Retron5 priced or less with cheap (GBA-ish - $30~) games. Maybe they figured out something that actually could succeed with the added help of the Coleco side of things and perhaps others. Supposedly before the VGS went off the handle into overpriced hell the original project was based directly upon Beaglebone BLACK http://beagleboard.org/BLACK ...considering what those cost individually for a consumer ($50-55), and what costs could drop bought in bulk of 10s or 100s of thousands of systems, that could do it and it's not weak either. Something I think that could be interesting, Coleco licenses stuff out, that's why there's the Coleco Flashback which has some great games on it. Perhaps if it's not a BeagleBlack setup, perhaps it will be a cheap Android box (like Flashbacks or Retron5) with some moderately decent cheap parts inside to keep it in price between the flashbacks and R5 at retail and you'll see some Coleco console 80s games released perhaps all on 1 cart to help sell it, or a few compilation carts which would be pretty cool.

While you're at it, you might want to post the follow-up post where Mike went back to his old paranoid accusatory self and started attacking a guy who has been instrumental in uncovering a lot of the truth behind the garbage Mike has been spewing about this venture. Frankly, there is nothing Mike can do at this point to salvage his reputation with many of us and even less he can do to salvage the remains of this project.

[Tanooki]

I haven't seen it, but I'll take your word on it given Mikes track record. When I posted that, I hadn't seen any follow up to that at that time. At this rate I just want to wait and see what potential disaster (or not) that'll be baked up for that toy show they got Coleco on the hook with. Mike is an ass, he's not the only one given some other idiots out there trying to setup failed gaming magazines panhandling for scraps each year, one dude chronicling the details of wikipedia and other sites into a book with a few pics for $50, and other youtube failures like Pat and his publishing etc that go on. There's plenty of bad and dumb people to go around who have cashed in on the hobby or at least have attempted to.

Honestly between the price games people pull with old titles scaring people into paying more on faux rares and legit ones, youtube find/fear or brag videos, people like Mike and the others I noted it's a huge reason why I don't play games like I used to as they sucked the fun out of much of the old, and the industry on the whole with overpriced games and the play it safe yearly tripe I don't buy much anymore. I'm finding digging into gameboy(all) and genesis at this rate the only thing left I can get somewhat of a rise out of along with few games a year on 3ds and ps4. It's also why I got a beefy laptop to last me many years so I can look back decades or just a few years once all the bugs are out and I can find something people agree doesn't suck to blow a few bucks on. That may sound more down than up but it's the reality of it and to think just 2-3 years ago I was raring to go hunting for stuff and enjoying it still which is pretty sad. Speaking of which I got a couple small Lego sets today from the 90s that have zero chance of being disappointing I have to build still. :D



I re-read the new posts on the thread I linked on that other post, don't see Mike talking smack and accusing people, do you have a link as I'd like to read it, or is it some dumb twitter account as I don't use that.

[Bojay1997]

I haven't seen it, but I'll take your word on it given Mikes track record. When I posted that, I hadn't seen any follow up to that at that time. At this rate I just want to wait and see what potential disaster (or not) that'll be baked up for that toy show they got Coleco on the hook with. Mike is an ass, he's not the only one given some other idiots out there trying to setup failed gaming magazines panhandling for scraps each year, one dude chronicling the details of wikipedia and other sites into a book with a few pics for $50, and other youtube failures like Pat and his publishing etc that go on. There's plenty of bad and dumb people to go around who have cashed in on the hobby or at least have attempted to.

Honestly between the price games people pull with old titles scaring people into paying more on faux rares and legit ones, youtube find/fear or brag videos, people like Mike and the others I noted it's a huge reason why I don't play games like I used to as they sucked the fun out of much of the old, and the industry on the whole with overpriced games and the play it safe yearly tripe I don't buy much anymore. I'm finding digging into gameboy(all) and genesis at this rate the only thing left I can get somewhat of a rise out of along with few games a year on 3ds and ps4. It's also why I got a beefy laptop to last me many years so I can look back decades or just a few years once all the bugs are out and I can find something people agree doesn't suck to blow a few bucks on. That may sound more down than up but it's the reality of it and to think just 2-3 years ago I was raring to go hunting for stuff and enjoying it still which is pretty sad. Speaking of which I got a couple small Lego sets today from the 90s that have zero chance of being disappointing I have to build still. :D



I re-read the new posts on the thread I linked on that other post, don't see Mike talking smack and accusing people, do you have a link as I'd like to read it, or is it some dumb twitter account as I don't use that.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3399140

[Tanooki]

Thanks, plenty of snark there to go around and look shady doing it. No wonder that thread got locked up tight.

[Greg2600]

Wait a minute, wasn't Carl Williams the cat who hosted the infamous podcast with Mike, Steve, and John perpetually disagreeing with each other? Now he's trying to ruin Mike's rep? Strange, because that guy seemed to have done a fair job interviewing them.

[Tanooki]

I don't know or follow all that political crap, it's games. But I can see Mike's point though, few like being slipped a Hot Carl.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm disappointed Albert shut down the lulz factory over at Atari Age.

[Retrotainment Games]

Wow! Reading this thread has been eye opening. I didn't realize there was this much disdain for this console and Mike himself. There are some very good points being made on here about the target audience, reanimation of a corpse system, lack of leadership for the project, $2,000,000, etc...

We've been in contact with Mike about our NES homebrew game trying to get it working on this system. I thought it was cool of them to reach out to indie game developers to try to get some new games for their new console. Admittedly I haven't followed this as closely as many of you seem to have done so I'm curious, do you think it's a bad idea to try to develop games for this system (assuming it does get released now that Coleco is on board)?

We only planned on making games for the NES until speaking with Mike and discussing the possibility of making games for what was the RVGS at the time. I guess I'm asking not just about our game but in general; if the system gets released would there be a backlash against game makers for supporting this? I'd love to know what you all think since you've been following this so closely and are cleary passionate about retro gaming!


Here's a link to our game's listing here on DP and our trailer so you can see what I'm referring to.

Thread: http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?174410-Haunted-Halloween-85-New-NES-Homebrew
Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2d1YwnBAQA

[stardust4ever]

I'm disappointed Albert shut down the lulz factory over at Atari Age.

Somebody made a new one:
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247145-coleco-chameleon-hardware-speculations/

Also here's a fun little music video remix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIweR23A9Ig

@Retrotainment: I bought your game! I definitely prefer physical release on the original hardware when I have the choice (as opposed to having the game on another platform packaged in an emulator), but no harm in diversifying. I would recommend keeping it on the down-low if you plan on releasing games on it. If somehow this train wreck does release and is successful, it won't hurt to have an extra platform. If it fails, your name won't be publicly dragged through the mud.

[Retrotainment Games]

@Retrotainment: I bought your game! I definitely prefer physical release on the original hardware when I have the choice (as opposed to having the game on another platform packaged in an emulator), but no harm in diversifying. I would recommend keeping it on the down-low if you plan on releasing games on it. If somehow this train wreck does release and is successful, it won't hurt to have an extra platform. If it fails, your name won't be publicly dragged through the mud.

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't want to get pegged to this thing; we just thought it would be another reasonable option for people to play our game and were trying to support it. Early on I read about the lack of games for it and thought we could try to help.

Thanks for buying Haunted, it is very much appreciated!!

[Greg2600]

We only planned on making games for the NES until speaking with Mike and discussing the possibility of making games for what was the RVGS at the time. I guess I'm asking not just about our game but in general; if the system gets released would there be a backlash against game makers for supporting this? I'd love to know what you all think since you've been following this so closely and are clearly passionate about retro gaming!

Hi, welcome. Let me respond to the question of whether this will work in general. Originally RVGS was announced and immediately praised "conceptually" by those who are part of or follow the homebrew scene. Such as yourself. This is a small, small niche though among all of gaming and game collecting. It's been shown that from a hobbyist perspective, new/CIB homebrew releases for classic systems are very much possible, and I suppose profitable to an extant. I don't think anybody, and that includes the super pro's like Atari Age or Collectorvision, for instance, make a large amount of income on these. As such, many of us (me included) continue to be highly skeptical that designing, selling, and distributing games and the console itself would ever make sense financially. That's where I think the biggest piece of skepticism comes from.

In reality, the system would have to get to retail outlets somehow. Gamestop, Dollar General, Walmart, etc. While the small indie devs might be fine with selling 150-200 copies of a game, the bigger ones are not going to waste resources to port their game for that. I mean, can anyone imagine Shovel Knight, Axiom Verge, or Fez being ported to be sold to 500-1,000 people? There's a school of thought that it's just going to be too difficult to overcome reality. I can buy said indie game for $10-$20 digitally on a modern console, and get it NOW, along with immediate updates. RVGS would require far longer dev times, sort of like when games would release on PS1 but take another year or more to finally come to the N64. RVGS further complicated this by announcing updates and fixes would not be allowed, which only made skepticism grow. To expect a gamer to pay $50 or $60 for a game that takes a year longer to come out, without fixes or DLC, in the 21st century, many felt this was too far a stretch....

On the subject of Mike Kennedy specifically, never met him, but unlike some others who have some kind of childish vendetta against him, I've always given him the benefit of the doubt. I greatly have enjoyed his magazine. Unfortunately he's behaved fairly poorly during this whole ordeal, and stained his credibility greatly. For a guy who always was so rah-rah and positive and optimistic, he came down pretty hard on people, some deservedly, but some not.

To answer your question, I do NOT believe there would be a backlash against publishers for putting out games for RVGS. Will there be mud slung your way as a result of a ton of it being slung in Mike's direction, perhaps, but it's really the responsibility of the community to police that. This is why Albert has been good about stopping what is basically unwarranted venom spit at Mr. Kennedy on his forums. That's the responsibility of the moderators. As a mod, I wouldn't allow unfair flaming to go on here.

[Tanooki]

I'd second what stardust said -- don't let them make you a public spectacle if you go through with it still and don't do it yourself, let it quietly appear. If it bombs you're not playing russian roulette with your company, and if it actually does well, extra money never hurts and being a launch game it's fairly safe to bet you'd get more sales just due to lack of quantity of games released for it up front.

[Gentlegamer]

Stay away from SoCalMike and make NES games.

[TonyTheTiger]

Nobody is going to drag a developer through the mud just for putting a game on the RVGS (Chameleon now?). If it got to that point then it means the thing actually exists which would mitigate a lot of the issues at hand. The real concern is whether it's a worthwhile effort in the first place.

[badinsults]

Wow! Reading this thread has been eye opening. I didn't realize there was this much disdain for this console and Mike himself. There are some very good points being made on here about the target audience, reanimation of a corpse system, lack of leadership for the project, $2,000,000, etc...

We've been in contact with Mike about our NES homebrew game trying to get it working on this system. I thought it was cool of them to reach out to indie game developers to try to get some new games for their new console. Admittedly I haven't followed this as closely as many of you seem to have done so I'm curious, do you think it's a bad idea to try to develop games for this system (assuming it does get released now that Coleco is on board)?

We only planned on making games for the NES until speaking with Mike and discussing the possibility of making games for what was the RVGS at the time. I guess I'm asking not just about our game but in general; if the system gets released would there be a backlash against game makers for supporting this? I'd love to know what you all think since you've been following this so closely and are cleary passionate about retro gaming!


Here's a link to our game's listing here on DP and our trailer so you can see what I'm referring to.

Thread: http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?174410-Haunted-Halloween-85-New-NES-Homebrew
Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2d1YwnBAQA

Honestly, I would not waste much time thinking about making games for this system. Very few people in the retro gaming community are going to trust anything these guys put out. They wasted a lot of goodwill with their poorly thought out Indiegogo, and this latest attempts to bring out a Coleco branded system looks just as shady.

At the moment, it really looks like it is a possible to mass produce games for old consoles like the NES at a reasonable price, just look at the rise of bootlegs out there. There is always going to be an audience with the NES, and it is a much better system to focus on, if you insist on making games for a console rather than something like Steam.

[portnoyd]

On the subject of Mike Kennedy specifically, never met him, but unlike some others who have some kind of childish vendetta against him, I've always given him the benefit of the doubt. I greatly have enjoyed his magazine. Unfortunately he's behaved fairly poorly during this whole ordeal, and stained his credibility greatly. For a guy who always was so rah-rah and positive and optimistic, he came down pretty hard on people, some deservedly, but some not.

So what you're saying is your benefit of the doubt was foolishly applied, because SoCalMike validated everything that was said against him. Got it.


To answer your question, I do NOT believe there would be a backlash against publishers for putting out games for RVGS. Will there be mud slung your way as a result of a ton of it being slung in Mike's direction, perhaps, but it's really the responsibility of the community to police that. This is why Albert has been good about stopping what is basically unwarranted venom spit at Mr. Kennedy on his forums. That's the responsibility of the moderators. As a mod, I wouldn't allow unfair flaming to go on here.

Yeah, Al did a great job of stopping the hate after the thread reaching 199 PAGES AND ALMOST 5,000 REPLIES of a thread that was nearly all negative against the project.

[stardust4ever]

So what you're saying is your benefit of the doubt was foolishly applied, because SoCalMike validated everything that was said against him. Got it.



Yeah, Al did a great job of stopping the hate after the thread reaching 199 PAGES AND ALMOST 5,000 REPLIES of a thread that was nearly all negative against the project.

Albert could have easily stopped it at the 200 page / 5000 post milestone. So close yetso far away...

[Flojomojo]

The AtariAge thread was comedy gold, and got even better when Mike came in to "defend" himself in the most laughable way imaginable. I can't wait to see what happens next. Every time he opens his mouth, it's outrageous and unintentionally hilarious.

The thread was shut down because of the hissy fit that Mike threw when a website called out some of his exaggerations. The moderators didn't want to deal with the resulting dogpile on Christmas Day. I wouldn't have minded seeing it continue ...

If I were a homebrew developer, I'd steer well clear of these "Coleco" jokers until they show something real. I can see the appeal of being one of the first "founders." I also think that playing into the artificial scarcity and "exclusivity" is a fool's game, but who am I to piss on someone's expensive collecting fun?

[sfchakan]

All I can say is "surf dogs."

[Gentlegamer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIweR23A9Ig

[Retrotainment Games]

Thanks for all this great feedback!! We're committed to making actual NES games and then transitioning them to other platforms if things work out that way. Currently we're making the PC version of Haunted to submit to Steam since (unfortunately) not everyone can get their hands on an NES. I'm not interested in making NES "style" games for other systems so anything that we did would be built for the NES and then potentially ported to the RGVS-CC.

I don't mind getting some mud slung at us, that happens with all game releases, I just don't want to get mixed up with something we shouldn't especially since we're a new developer. Our focus and passion is the NES and if this would detract from that focus and we would get pegged as a turncoat of sorts then it wouldn't be worth even attempting this move.

So overall what I'm gathering is that it would be reasonable to proceed but with caution. I like how you put it, Tanooki "don't let them make you a public spectacle if you go through with it still and don't do it yourself, let it quietly appear", that sounds like the best approach.

Thanks again for the info and opinions everyone! I'll continue to watch this thread as things unfold.

[Tupin]

I haven't seen this much drama in the retro community since that Cheetahman II guy.

[Tanooki]

Well that guy and Mike both like to not just throw gasoline on a problem, they go straight to the thermite.

[stardust4ever]

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Well that guy and Mike both like to not just throw gasoline on a problem, they go straight to the thermite.
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

I always wanted to place a barrel of thermite on the top floor of a skyscraper, and see how many floors it melts through before the reaction stops. Mike is like one of those goons who sucks at dominoe ralley, or card houses, and keeps knocking down his own creation.

[stardust4ever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIweR23A9Ig

Classic never gets old...

[hksrb25s14]

O_o $300???

Wow, my Nvidia Shield TV was cheaper and I think it's stronger then this.
300 will soon drop to $99 quickly. I'll stick with real retro systems.

[Pikointeractive]

Hey Guys,

I think I have a few things to point out.

First of all, I think this time around they have a better chance to make the console happen with the Coleco Brand and the slash of costs.

Anyways, Mike has approached to us again, first time he wanted game from us and then after he never posted them on the indiegogo (thank God actually)
He reached out again, and we are going to give him another chance as we believe the project, if successful, could be cool.

I think they want to target more the general audience that appreciates retro games. But who knows who is going to respond more this time around. It seems that the retro gaming scene feels very speculative which there is nothing wrong with that.

Anyways, I've decided to go to NY for the Toy show and actually see the hardware; I've orally agreed to some stuff for the Coleco, but will not give final yes until we have it all signed in paper. I've seen their contract and is solid.

I will report back with pictures and my insights after the NY trip. I already have the passes for the Tradeshow, just need to get my flight and hotel room.

@Retrotainment, My advice is to always be open to ANY deals. As and Indie developer you want to acquire as much funds back from your game as possible. Just be careful, and try to haggle the deal to your favor as much as possible. Remember this is pure business so every party will be trying to tip the deal to their advantage. Remeber Cash talks and 1 dollar today is worth more than 10 tomorrow, So try to get the most money on your pocket as quickly as possible. You are an IP owner now and you can do a lot of things with IPs :D.
In another note, I'm interested in producing (physically) your game; I think we can help you bring down costs for carts, as well as CIB versions while keeping the same overhead :D

For what I've heard from Mike, if they follow the plan they have, it would be very likely to be successful on the Kickstarter scale. After that of course, Content will rule; No new/exclusive content, will eventually kill the console. So they really will need to lure developers and offer them very good deals + cash to have them develop.

[Greg2600]

Awesome, thanks for checking in here Piko! I feel like if Coleco can get this system into retail, it has something of a chance.

[FieryReign]

What has Coleco done in recent years to make people think this thing has a chance? This whole thing gets sillier by the minute. A Coleco Jaguar with those sorry 3rd party Wii controller pros for $300? Sounds like an early April Fools joke.

[stardust4ever]

What has Coleco done in recent years to make people think this thing has a chance? This whole thing gets sillier by the minute. A Coleco Jaguar with those sorry 3rd party Wii controller pros for $300? Sounds like an early April Fools joke.You obviously haven't been following much. The $300 is terribly outdated. 3rd party controller, Jag shells, and Coleco branding, not so much.

[Greg2600]

As Piko said, this system (in some form) will be at the Toy Fair in NYC. Should retail buyers like what they see, they could make orders.

[FieryReign]

You obviously haven't been following much. The $300 is terribly outdated. 3rd party controller, Jag shells, and Coleco branding, not so much.
What is terribly outdated to you? 2 months? Enlighten us, Mr. Up-to-date.

[JSoup]

What is terribly outdated to you? 2 months?

To be fair, 2 months in internet time is like 8 years in reality.

[Emperor Megas]

I'm over 40 so I only process things in real time now. I don't use 'new math' either.

[Gameguy]

What has Coleco done in recent years to make people think this thing has a chance?
They made that Coleco Head to Head plug and play system that nobody remembers or cares about. Does that count?

http://www.amazon.com/Coleco-60501-Head-Video-System/dp/B000VS6G7W

[stardust4ever]

As Piko said, this system (in some form) will be at the Toy Fair in NYC. Should retail buyers like what they see, they could make orders.

I am curious to know if anyone bites (ie places order) at the toy fair. They had better have a finished product on display.