Are the Sachen carts "official" NES releases?

[norkusa]

I'm down to the last 98 carts I need to complete my NES collection and I'm facing a major problem. I can't decide wether or not I need the Sachen games to have a totally complete NES collection. When I first started collecting NES back in 1997, I was going by the DP Collectors Guide #5. That guide had no mention of Sachen carts anywhere in it. Last year when the #7 guide came out, I nearly shit a brick when I saw 50+ new cartridge listings....all Sachen, added to the NES section. I thought "Great, another year and at least another $1,000 until I complete my NES collection".

It seems the NES community is split in half on Sachen situation: one side believes that they are shitty pirate carts that don't belong on the NES canon, and the others believe that they are just like all the other unlicensed titles and should be included.

What do you guys think? I would like to say no, they aren't "official" NES titles, but when you think about it, the 3 Panesian games aren't really that different from the Sachens.

Also, anyone know where Sachen carts were sold? I've never seen an ad or outlet for any of their carts anywhere.

[Blackjax]

From what I understand, 72-pin NTSC carts are sold (since TheRedEye bought a bunch of them) but to this day, no evidence of them being sold in the US has been found at my last recolection.

I dunno, guess it's up to you. The games DO suck however...

[D_N_G]

NO

[sniperCCJVQ]

Until we dont have a REAL evidence that Sachen was sold in the US. I still consider them to be NOT in the US collection.

[Atari7800]

Still, the carts are 72 pins (our NES standard) and NTSC format... I suppose that's where the arguement stems from. The 72 pin carts won't fit in a Japanese Famicon, and the NTSC format means they weren't meant for the UK... I can't see Canada and Brasil and being the targeted market. Who knows? The arguement continues...

[Atari7800]

Still, the carts are 72 pins (our NES standard) and NTSC format... I suppose that's where the arguement stems from. The 72 pin carts won't fit in a Japanese Famicon, and the NTSC format means they weren't meant for the UK... I can't see Canada and Brasil and being the targeted market. Who knows? The arguement continues...

[norkusa]

Still, the carts are 72 pins (our NES standard) and NTSC format... I suppose that's where the arguement stems from. The 72 pin carts won't fit in a Japanese Famicon, and the NTSC format means they weren't meant for the UK... I can't see Canada and Brasil and being the targeted market. Who knows? The arguement continues...

But didn't Sachen make their own pirate NES console too? If so, that would explain how people overseas could play the carts.

[Atari7800]

I don't know so much about the NES... you may be right about the pirate console. That would go a long ways in explaining their carts. PLus, if they had the INTENTION of releasing the carts in the US but never did, does that intention really make them part of the US collection? Also, didn't other game companies re-release some of the Sachen games under their own labels?

[Ruudos]

Japan has NTSC, but many Asian countries have PAL, right? The Hong Kong and Asian version carts (that are Nintendo-licensed) are PAL carts.

[spoon]

I guess it depends on your definition of offical. No 72 pin pirates/companies like Color Dreams,Ave, etc. are offical. legitimate US releases, yes, but not offical.

[norkusa]

I guess it depends on your definition of offical. No 72 pin pirates/companies like Color Dreams,Ave, etc. are offical. legitimate US releases, yes, but not offical.

Well what I meant by "official" is if the cartridges could be purchased new in the United States, regardless if they were unlicensed or not. The more I find about Sachen, the more I believe they don't fit into this category.

Since they were never sold in the US, I don't consider the Sachens to be legitimate US releases and won't collect them. To me, it just sounds like Sachen tried to market a NES clone in Asia that was capable of playing their 72-pin games and coincidentally, NES games as well.

[Balloon Fight]

If they arent sold in the U.S. how can we consider them U.S. releases?

[Slipdeath]

while were on the subject do u guys consider the aladdina also to have a "complete collection"??

[Darth Vader]

I wouldn't be too worried if you don't get the sachen carts. It is pretty much understood that they were NOT available for retail purchase in the U.S. I am 2 games short of having the complete NES collection and I will not even worry about the Sachen stuff. It would be nice to have, but I am not going to panic about not having them. :-D

Danny


P.S. Maybe Adam (Buyatari) could shed some more light on this, he might have more information.

[Darth Vader]

while were on the subject do u guys consider the aladdina also to have a "complete collection"??

YES. (I am assuming you mean the aladdin deck enhancer) They were widely available through retail. I believe you can still pick up the whole set brand new, still on ebay.

Danny

[1bigmig]

while were on the subject do u guys consider the aladdina also to have a "complete collection"??

Definately, there has been one guy selling complete sets for about 90$ with shipping on ebay for awhile. Not just that, since Sachens come up also, but these were available in the US for sure.

I dont consider the Sachen carts to be necessary for a US collection, I dont believe they were released here.

EDIT: :embarrassed: almost quoted Darth word for word, oh well.

[Ed Oscuro]

Japan has NTSC, but many Asian countries have PAL, right? The Hong Kong and Asian version carts (that are Nintendo-licensed) are PAL carts.

A couple pages too late, but no, it's SECAM. French. I don't know about Hong Kong in particular, but I bet that's SECAM too.

[Ruudos]

Ok, but these NES carts aren't any different. French NBES carts are just the same as carts from Germany, Spain, etc.

[Griking]

I think the question really should be what games were legally available in the USA.

If we don't include the Sachen games then I don't think that the Panesian or any of the other unlicensed games should be included either.

[ianoid]

There is a difference between unlicensed and unreleased in the US.

And early someone said that the games couldn't be released for the non-US NTSC market, but I beg to differ given the popularity of video gaming in Brazil and other NTSC or similar format (PAL-M) non-Asian markets.

Given that I've see ALOT of NES out there and never once met a Sachen game (nor Panesian game, but still), I have my doubts that they received real release here and I don't include them in my collecting goals seriously. It takes the fun out of it to have 50 more carts to get that I never see available- anywhere.

And yes there are NTSC NES pirates out there other than Sachen.

ian

[TheRedEye]

First of all, stop calling Sachen pirates. They didn't pirate a goddam thing.

Exhibit A: Sachen's American Patent (http://sachen.theredeye.net/patent.zip) for their game cartridges.

Exhibit B: A few American copyrights:

1. Registration Number: TX-2-809-221
Title: Metal fight.
Description: printout.
Note: Computer program.
Claimant: acThin Chen Enterprise Company, Ltd.
Created: 1989

Published: 5Aug89

Registered: 2Jan90

Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 1/C

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Registration Number: TX-3-038-106
Title: Pyramid I.
Description: printout.
Note: Computer program.
Claimant: acThin Chen Enterprise Company, Ltd.
Created: 1990

Published: 10Jul90

Registered: 16Aug90

Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 1/C

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Registration Number: TX-3-038-107
Title: Pyramid II.
Description: printout.
Note: Computer program.
Claimant: acThin Chen Enterprise Company, Ltd.
Created: 1990

Published: 10Jul90

Registered: 16Aug90

Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 1/C


I dare you to find evidence that solid for PANESIAN, or hell, even Color Dreams.

This isn't a matter of discussing whether or not Sachen games for the NES were American products. They were shipped from overseas, albeit very very rarely, TO AMERICA, with all documentation in English, back when the NES was alive. Same as Panesian. They had copyrights, they had patents, they were legit.

What needs rethinking here is what this whole collector's mentality actually means. Do you really want to purchase sixty-five (by my last count) incredibly shitty games just to say you have everything ever intended for American audiences? Or will you instead flat out deny solid evidence and say they don't "count?"

I can name two, and only two, instances where Sachen games were found in American secondhand stores, and both were sold on eBay. By American sellers. The titles were Poker III - 5 in 1 and Olympic IQ, which off memory have a copyright year of 1993.

What am I suggesting here, exactlY? Sachen games were produced in Taiwan. There ARE language variations in their instruction manuals. They were shipped, AS ALL ASIAN PRODUCTS ARE, to any retailer worldwide who wished to sell them. If an American retailer were to order games from Sachen, they would then be sent the "American version." I can say this with full confidence.

Did this ever happen? We have no solid evidence to say so, but I'm sure it did. Just very very rarely.

How is this, by any stretch of the imagination, different in any way, to what Panesian did? Panesian's only difference is American marketing. They went around and pushed their games. Sachen, I'm guessing, was too retarded for such things, and were making enough money selling their Asian versions (in Famicom cases!) locally.

These things were sold in America. Get over it. Just admit to yourself that you don't NEED these games and move on, but don't deny facts.

[christianscott27]

i had the same debate myself, i looked at my list to go toward completion and noticed all of the sanchen titles on there. i concluded what most people have, that if after all these years of intensive hunting i had never seen one, not a single one anywhere i could file them under "not needed" for completion. besides there a many flavors of "complete" in collecting, boxes, manuals, unlicensed or not, label variations etc, theres no one standard. all i know is that a small list to go and an equally small amount of space left on my giant NES bookshelf, when those are done i'll call it a day and go hog wild on my 16 bit collecting :)

congrats to every NES collector nearing the finish line, we got in when the getting was good :D

[Raedon]

I've been denying this but i'm going to need these crap games now.... Hell, if I own Dirty Harry I guess it's not that big a deal..

[Qixmaster]

These things were sold in America. Get over it. Just admit to yourself that you don't NEED these games and move on, but don't deny facts.

Amen to that.

[The Manimal]

are differences in the nintendo seal of quality considered variations? (circle and oval seals)


same goes for three screw cases w/notches as the top apposed to five screw cases with no notches at the top?



Was always curious of this. I'm half-way there, as far as US licensed releases go. I don't collect, just own 300 something games LOL Most I own for any system, by far.

[norkusa]

I can name two, and only two, instances where Sachen games were found in American secondhand stores, and both were sold on eBay. By American sellers. The titles were Poker III - 5 in 1 and Olympic IQ, which off memory have a copyright year of 1993.

So what? I see legit & pirate Famicom (and even pirate NES) carts in thrift stores every now-and- then. Just because a couple Sachens turned up in one doesn't mean dick. Someone could have picked them up while on vacation in Asia and brought 'em back to the US with them.

I've been collecting NES hardcore for 6 years now and I've NEVER seen a Sachen in the wild. Hell, I've even found 2 Panesians but still no Sachens yet. You'd think if these were ever sold in the US, more would have turned up by other collectors now. I just don't believe they were ever sold in the US.

[orrimarrko]

Sachen debate continues...

I guess this one will never die. Anyway, Red Eye is absolutely correct in regards to defending Sachen against the whole pirating accusation.

They are legitimate carts.

They are unlicensed.

They do, in fact, suck balls.

They were not made in the US, nor were they sold in any mainstream retail capacity.

Here's a fact. The ONLY reason anyone is able to find the Panesian games here in the states is because they were marketed here.

The Panesian games (which by the way were also unlicensed, and also not made in the US, nor sold in any mainstream retail capacity) were marketed to video stores/chains. They were, for the most part, rental games that eventually were sold when the rest of the NES titles were sold off.

That's why they are, while very hard to come by, easier to find than the Sachen games. The Panesian carts that are most often found or sold on eBay were at one time or another, rental copies. Also, I am fairly certain that you could have ordered them from the distributor.

In my humble opinion, I do NOT believe that the Sachen games were released here in the US, in any retail capacity. So, in that respect, I treat them like PAL games, or other Asian releases. They are kind of cool as historical NES pieces - not as games O_O , but I would only pick them up if they were relatively cheap and available.

Red Eye alludes to one very complelling point, however.

Collecting is a personal preference - not to be dictated by any one person or institutional way of thinking. If you didn't have the unlicensed games (Bunch, Wisdom Tree, etc), but had every licensed game - does that mean that your collection is incomplete?

HELL NO!

Collect what you want. Your collection is complete when you say it is - and you don't need anyone or any book to tell you otherwise. The DP book is a "GUIDE" - not the gospel (sorry Joe!) It simply identifies what games are known for the system, that have been found (not necessarily released) in the US.

My definition of complete may be different than yours. You may not collect label variations, manuals & boxes, maps, etc. That doesn't mean dick. All that matters is that you decide what your goal is, and have fun trying to achieve it.

I need a beer...

[ventrra]

They are legitimate carts.

They are unlicensed.

They do, in fact, suck balls.

Not entirely. I own a 3 in 1 cart that contains Rock Ball and Popo Team.
Rock Ball is a competent puzzle game.
Popo Team is a fair translation of Anteater.
Heck I've played their translation of Rally-X and found it wasn't too bad, really.

(HOWEVER, you will not find me cheering games like Challenge of the Dragon or Magical Mathematics.)

[TheRedEye]

(I'd like to point out that the reply you're about to read was written, quite literally I assure you, over seven hours ago. I've left it unedited.)

Are you suggesting, then, that Thin Chen Enterprise Co., Ltd., the largest Taiwanese manufacturer and creator of video games (as far as I can see), would go through the trouble of filing American copyrights of their works, patents for their design, and then go, "Eh, fuck it" and forget about the American market completely? I doubt that.

From 1992 until, literally, earlier this year, they had an American patent to sell their game cartridges in the United States of America. The first time I ordered from them was 2000, the first time I "found" them and saw that they had products available for resalers in the United States was in 1998. They said, at the time, and I believe they still do (or would, I fear that they may have finally kicked the bucket!), that they have been a world-wide seller of video game cartridges since 1992.

I have no reason to believe anything but the thought that in 1992, an American retailer could have placed orders to Thin Chen Enterprise and received Sachen NES carts to sell at their shops. It would have been legal, it would have been reasonable, and it would have been within the system's life.

"I've never seen one!" is not an argument against whether or not Sachen games were sold, or COULD have been sold, in the United States. The fact remains that the distribution methods of Sachen games were the exact same as Panesian games. If you don't "count" Sachen games, you can't "count" Panesians either.

[Darth Vader]

I am not disputing any of the facts that Red Eye is speaking, obviously he knows more about this debate than most of us, but just because the games COULD have been sold in the U.S. doesn't prove that they in fact WERE. Yes, the Panesians were marketed and for a fact sold to Rental outlets, that would provide a chain of distribution (kinda like how Final Fight guy was a blockbuster exclusive for SNES), making them available for sale in the U.S. (that is how I got my 2 Panesian games).

Also, having an American copyright doesn't prove they were sold in the U.S., the company very easily could have gone through the process and then bailed at the last minute, but it does state their intentions WERE to do it. I just think that if these games had a clearer distribution channel they would show up much more often on ebay than they do.

From a collecting standpoint, I would love to get all of the Sachen games as well, even if they suck ass. ;)

Thanks for some of the facts, Red Eye!

Danny

[Sylentwulf]

For a completely useless and banal post by Sylentwulf, my answer to the subject title is "NO".

[norkusa]

(I'd like to point out that the reply you're about to read was written, quite literally I assure you, over seven hours ago. I've left it unedited.)

Are you suggesting, then, that Thin Chen Enterprise Co., Ltd., the largest Taiwanese manufacturer and creator of video games (as far as I can see), would go through the trouble of filing American copyrights of their works, patents for their design, and then go, "Eh, fuck it" and forget about the American market completely? I doubt that.

It's very likely they did do that. Like Darth said, just because copyrights of their games were filed doesn't mean they MUST have been released in the US. Companies file copyrights all the time for products the public will never see.

No one can say with 100% certainty if Sachens were released in the US, but consider all the hardcore NES collectors who've been hitting second-hand shops and swap meets for years. If only 2 have shown up in the US since 1992 (or whenever Sachen started making these things), chances are that they were NEVER sold in the US. The argument "because Thin Chen made them, so they must have been available to US retail outlets" doesn't cut it.

[portnoyd]

I'm not going to even touch this with a thirty foot pole. BUT two things:

1. Super Pang rules.

2. I need Huge Insect. Can I get a Huge Insect?!

dave

[D_N_G]

2. I need Huge Insect. Can I get a Huge Insect?!


Cant quite help you there, but I can give you something Enormis :D

[Griking]

For whatever it's worth, I only consider Nintendo authorized and licensed games as being legit. All others including Sachen titles I consider pirates. Even if the company that made them had a US patent it doesn't mean that they they were authorized by Nintendo to make and sell Nintendo games.

[1bigmig]

For whatever it's worth, I only consider Nintendo authorized and licensed games as being legit. All others including Sachen titles I consider pirates. Even if the company that made them had a US patent it doesn't mean that they they were authorized by Nintendo to make and sell Nintendo games.

What about Tengen games since Tengen became authorized eventually? Do you only count the games that eventually had a seal of approval? In other cases, Color Dreams..., this is clear cut, but I think there is a degree of ambiguity with the Tengen games.

[Buyatari]

What are you guys complaining about ?!?!?

You should try and complete an Atari 2600 collection. NES is cake compared to that.

While we are on Atari 2600 I'd like to see evidence that Air Raid was sold here in the US. Its tough if only because its so damn rare but no matter where it was or wasn't sold or if anyone can prove it or not, it is considered a "must have to complete the collection" game.

I'm with Red Eye on this one. If you honestly believe some overseas company would market an "American version" for sale ONLY in Asia then you are only fooling yourselves. That just doesn't make any sense. Its much easier to believe that they did sell some in the US and had very poor sales.

I think the problem was these games was that they weren't listed quickly enough and people are resistant to change. Had you always known about these games and had they been listed on Etlers rarity list no one would argue the point.

Or if there were only 1 or 2 or 3 Sachen titles...Then the same thing would happen... NES collectors would just buy the three and be done with it, but once it starts adding up to 50 carts then forget it. Its too much work or too much money and its just easier to say they don't count.

In the end do what you want but as Red Eye said don't change the facts.

Adam

[orrimarrko]

I don't agree that it has anything to do with the number of carts - at least to me it doesn't.

I also don't necessarily agree with the logic that just because they intended to market and distribute the games in the US, means that they actually did.

As we ALL know, many licensed NES games met the chopping block for various reasons, but at the end of the NES lifecycle, they were mostly cut for financial reasons.

Is it so impossible to think that these Sachen games were intended to be distributed here, but never were because it would have proven financially impossible?

All I am saying is that their US distribution could have easily been cancelled just like many other prototype games that never reached the production stage.

My decision to collect the Sachen games will have nothing to do with any of this though. It will purely be a decision based on interest alone.

Ramble on...

[Buyatari]

Is it so impossible to think that these Sachen games were intended to be distributed here, but never were because it would have proven financially impossible?


I don't think that changes it, even IF that was that case.

What about Cheetman II. Was that not canceled but intended for US release? Is that not considered a "must have to complete the collection" game.

Adam

[TheRedEye]

*tag-teams with buyatari*

Yeah, and while we're all blindly following Mike Etler's admittedly YEARS-outdated list, what about CompuTrainer's (http://www.computrainer.com/) Racermate Challenge? That not only was for sale in the U.S., it STILL IS. Does that not "count" either?

*tag*

[1bigmig]

I think that should count if you are collecting everything available to the US market. It isnt in production anymore though,

http://www.computrainer.com/html/Parts.htm

Also, for it to be complete, ala miracle piano, you need the stationary trainer for your back wheel, other accessories, and a modified by Computrainer NES that will play the cart. Complete these usually go 5-700 so how hardcore are you? ;)

[TheRedEye]

Yes! If you GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL, you need a bigass bike and 65 terrible games from a terrible Taiwanese company.

http://www.theredeye.net/20010506/super8in1/logo.gif
GO TEAM!!

[Bratwurst]

What is that coming out of Pikachu's ass?

[orrimarrko]

First of all, I don't see the correllation between Cheetahmen II and the Sachen games, whatsoever.

The Cheetahmen II game is no different (almost literally) from the Action 52 game. Both were produced and released here. With the Cheetahmen II game, he just ran out of money, so the cart case is the same. I have simplified the story for the sake of typing, but you get the gist.

Thing is, NO ONE KNOWS the whole story about Sachen. It's all guesswork, period.

I see your points (Red Eye and Adam), but I don't think that you can make the logical concusion that "just because they were produced...".

Once again, your collection is all personal preference.

I will agree with one statement whole-heartedly - Mike Etler's rarity list is EXTREMELY outdated, and should only be used as a guide. I used it, along with several others to compile my own rarity list (and title list).

It's not the gospel folks, nor is any other NES guide.

I actually have 2 of the Sachen games, and will most likely hunt down the rest someday, when I have the rest of the "known games". However, I wouldn't consider my collection incomplete without them, or the NWC carts - for that matter.

[Slipdeath]

while were on the subject do u guys consider the aladdin also to have a "complete collection"??

Definately, there has been one guy selling complete sets for about 90$ with shipping on ebay for awhile. Not just that, since Sachens come up also, but these were available in the US for sure.

I dont consider the Sachen carts to be necessary for a US collection, I dont believe they were released here.

EDIT: :embarrassed: almost quoted Darth word for word, oh well.
i no im kinda late but i saw those auctions arent they missing one game??

[1bigmig]

this is the seller (no recommendation here, just for the info -- everything was fine though) and the exact same set I got:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3608&item=3046521170

Im pretty sure these are all the games that were released for it.

[Buyatari]

The Cheetahmen II game is no different (almost literally) from the Action 52 game. Both were produced and released here.

Whats the story on this. I was told Cheetahmen II was planned for release but was NOT released. That they guy went under and someone bought his entire inventory and "released" it on the collectors market.

Adam

[Buyatari]

Ok lets it get this straight once and for all.

What exactly defines "US release" anyway?

You can't say this counts because of this or this doesn't count because of that.

You have to spell out in black and white what counts, what would have counted had it happened, and what does not count.

Does it have to be available at Sears and Walmart? What about a mail order only game? What about a Blockbuster rental only game that was never available for sale? If two guys sold Cheethman II at a flee market in Florida on one Sunday does that make it a "US released" game? What if Nintendo produced a game but gave it away for free? Your definition has to cover all of these possibilities and more.

I'd like to hear the EXACT terms under which you considered something "US released"

I'll go first.

I'll give you my definition of what I'd consider a US NES released game.]


Any program which runs on the US NES system, and no other unique system, without the aid of any device NOT INCLUDED with the program itself, which was produced with primary intent of use by the US public market during what is generally considered to be the "life cycle" of the NES.

I don't know the exact dates of the "life cycle" but I think most agree it started with the released of the NES in New York and ended with the release of Sunday Funday.

Using this definition Famicom games won't count. Even if a Famicom game bootleg was sold in the US with a converter, they run on the Famicom without the converter making them Famicom games not NES.

Also using this definition Aladdin games do count because while they do require a converter they run on no other system I know of without this converter AND they were packaged with the converter.

Cheetahman II and the Sachen games also count under this definition. They were "intended " primarily for the US market and were mass produced during the life cycle of the system. They also won't work on any other unique system without a converter.

Prototypes would not count because they were not intended for public use.

If a rental or freebie was produced back then they would also count and so would the dreaded NWC carts.

You will be very hard pressed to come up with a definition which excludes the Sachen games AND still allows for other possible scenarios which most would have considered "released" like rental-only carts, educational only releases, small independant releases, freebies or mail order only games.

Why is that? Its because by definition they really should count.

Problem is.... they suck. They are ugly. Hard to get. They weren't on the old lists and there are ALOT of them.

You WANT them not to count.

But that doesn't change the fact that by definition they should count. If they didn't have ALL the traits listed above most would consider them releases.

Adam

[orrimarrko]

I'm sorry, I don't follow this logical path here.

Quite honestly, I don't think that ANY non-licensed, non-retail NES game should count towards the "official collection." Just my opinion.

That makes it unambiguous - NO SEAL, NO DEAL. No protos, no NWC, no Tengen black carts, no Color Dreams, no Sachen, etc.

You have a clear, definitive list that Nintendo itself can supply you with.

The acknowledgement of ALL of the non-licensed games is important to mark the history of the system, but they simply aren't part of the US NES list.

This eliminates the debates about pirate carts, distribution, and anything else that you can argue over.

HOWEVER...

While that is my opinion about what the collection should be, I personally include the non-licensed games in my collection, for two main reasons:

1. They are an interesting part of video game history, and I think that it's important to acknowledge their existence.

2. The licensed list of US games is easy as hell to complete and there isn't that much of a challenge there. There are 3-5 semi difficult/expensive carts to find, and that's about it. A credit card and eBay, and you could almost be done in a weekend. (Yes, I am slightly exaggerrating for effect.) By adding the unlicensed carts and other oddities into my collecting, I can extend the life of the hunt, and it makes it more challenging.

That's pretty much it for me.

I truly feel that the "list" should have 4 main categories:

A. Licensed
B. Unlicensed
C. Accessory Related
D. Exclusives

I do not believe that protos in ANY form would belong on the list, but you could obviously make that section "E."

A. Licensed games - those officially recognized by Nintendo.
B. Unlicensed games - all of the unlicensed games (Tengen black, AVE, Wisdom Tree, Sachen, etc.)
C. Accessory Related - any games that are unlicensed, that require an accessory to play them (Aladdin deck games, computrainer, etc.)
D. Exclusives - any games not made available to the general public (NWC carts, etc.)

This is how I collect, and it serves me well - everyone has their own "list" and way to do things. However, I feel that if you break down the list like this, there is NO way to worry about whether something falls into the list or not. besides, section "A" is finite. The other three could always be added to, should a new discovery be made.

Just my two cents.

Steve

[Buyatari]

This has been my point from the beginning.

Whatever category you place Cheetman II , Color Dreams and Wisdom Tree you have to place Sachen.

Adam

[1bigmig]

I truly feel that the "list" should have 4 main categories:

A. Licensed
B. Unlicensed
C. Accessory Related
D. Exclusives

I do not believe that protos in ANY form would belong on the list, but you could obviously make that section "E."

A. Licensed games - those officially recognized by Nintendo.
B. Unlicensed games - all of the unlicensed games (Tengen black, AVE, Wisdom Tree, Sachen, etc.)
C. Accessory Related - any games that are unlicensed, that require an accessory to play them (Aladdin deck games, computrainer, etc.)
D. Exclusives - any games not made available to the general public (NWC carts, etc.)

This is how I collect, and it serves me well - everyone has their own "list" and way to do things. However, I feel that if you break down the list like this, there is NO way to worry about whether something falls into the list or not. besides, section "A" is finite. The other three could always be added to, should a new discovery be made.

Very well said, I cant think of a better way to categorize "official US releases" since when lumping them under one category there is always room for individual interpretation. This pretty clearly defines what is and isnt in each category. A few questions though, would Panesian fall under unlicensed or exclusive (since they were mainly available to video stores)? Or better, other than the NWC cart what would define an exclusive..for example, Sachen is unlicensed, but was it available to the general public? I would say less than the NWC carts are. Maybe the exclusive category should be eliminated so that there wouldnt be any question of what does "to the general public" mean and just have NWC carts and test cartridges under a not intended for sale category with a separate category for prototypes. Im pretty sure this is what you implied, but maybe this is clearer.

A. Licensed
B. Unlicensed
C. Accessory Related
D. Not Intended for Sale
E. Protos

Finally, should the DP Guide be broken into these sections? I would say it should.

[orrimarrko]

First, I would say that "Not intended for Resale" is probably more accurate than "Exclusives".

I was trying to think of a one-word qualifier, but there truly aren't any other NES exclusives other than NWC. Not intended for resale still only covers NWC, but what the heck.

Second, there really isn't any room for interpretation on the Panesians and Sachens with the system that I use. They are both UNLICENSED game manufacturers, just like Wisdom Tree, the black Tengens, etc. Just because they may be difficult to locate through mainstream suppliers doesn't mean that they were "Not intended for Resale." Fact is, you could have purchased both the Panesians and Sachens yourself if you knew where to look (once upon a time.) Difference was, no one knew, and the Panesians were only marketed to video rental stores - doesn't mean they were not intended to be sold elsewhere. They probably couldn't be sold at Toys R Us, if you know what I mean.

Finally, I don't think the DP guide should be broken down any other way than what they feel comfortable with. Not to puss out here, but I view the guide as just a list of games. I can formulate my own categorical listings. If the DP guide wanted to take the time to further break the list down, there would always be argument about the breakdown and what goes where. All they need to do is say, "These are the NTSC, non-Japanese games for the NES." This lets the reader know that this is a comprehensive listing of all the games found in the US that work on your US NES machine.

End of story.

[Slipdeath]

i also think they should have a section for limited editons, or special editiions

[spoon]

Yeah, you guys should have a check box/ and or listing of each version of a game.

ex. Blades of Steel grey label, Konami Classics red label

Bible Adventures black cart, blue cart.

Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt/World Class Track Meet Mario with white trousers, Mario with red trousers


That would be very helpful. I know ther are other little, little things, but you could skip those. Like the fact that there are something like re-visions of Bible Adventures (1.1, 1.2, 1.3). Maybe that could be included in the description of the game.

[orrimarrko]

i also think they should have a section for limited editons, or special editiions

And what titles would those be? There aren't any that I am aware of. The "Not intented for resale" covers and demo carts and the NWC carts.

Other than that, I can't think of any other titles that qualify.

[Buyatari]

Ok so what you are saying is the the DP section SHOULD have these sections

A. Licensed
B. Unlicensed
C. Accessory Related
D. Not Intended for Sale
E. Protos

5 sections so far
and if homebrews are introduced then 6

ohh forgot about the rumormill section and the hardware section.

that makes 8 sections

Ohh crap forgot about Non-Us titles.

So PLUS overseas releases.

Umm now should the overseas releases ALSO have 8 sections. NOW there are a TOTAL of either 9 or 16 sections. If you change NES then you have to change all other systems.

Come on Joe you got some work to do.

LOL

Good luck getting Joe to do all that just so you don't have collect Sachen games.

Why not have a section for each game company. Or a seperate section for each game?

Much like MOST other systems listed the current DP guide the NES has 5 sections.

US game releases
NON-US game releases
Prototypes and one of a kinds
Non-cart items
and
Rumor mill

The only section not seen with NES that is seen on some other systems would be a homebrew section which is possible should they start to pop up.

This is what you have to work with. These 5 (and soon to be 6) sections.

Now using these categories and these categories ONLY give me a definition of what qualifies as a US release. Remember every game has to fit into one of these 5 categories.

You guys are working backwards. You have the results in your head that you would like to achieve so you try to set up sections to have the games plop into categories best suited to your liking.

The only way to do this is to determine sections which would apply to every system first. Then look at each game and place them in the category for each system in which they belong.

Or maybee you tried that but then you didn't care for the results and went back again to re-define the categories. Repeat as necessary to produce desired results.

Now if you can come up with a definition of each of the 6 categories which is used for EVERY system in the current DP guide and find that that these definitions suit every game for every system BUT Sachen games in the NES system well then a new section may be needed. Until then, I say they are right where they belong.

Adam

[Buyatari]

Yeah, you guys should have a check box/ and or listing of each version of a game.

ex. Blades of Steel grey label, Konami Classics red label

Bible Adventures black cart, blue cart.

Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt/World Class Track Meet Mario with white trousers, Mario with red trousers


This I WOULD really like to see and not just on NES but on all systems. In Atari 2600 for sears for example there really should be 2 line entries (don't need a whole new description) for Picture and Text labels. For Atari games silver/grey/gatefold etc etc etc.

IF NOT then it should at least be noted which variations do exist in the description and if there is one which is rarer or worth more than any of the others.

Adam

[orrimarrko]

Ok so what you are saying is the the DP section SHOULD have these sections

A. Licensed
B. Unlicensed
C. Accessory Related
D. Not Intended for Sale
E. Protos

5 sections so far
and if homebrews are introduced then 6

ohh forgot about the rumormill section and the hardware section.

that makes 8 sections

Ohh crap forgot about Non-Us titles.

So PLUS overseas releases.

Umm now should the overseas releases ALSO have 8 sections. NOW there are a TOTAL of either 9 or 16 sections. If you change NES then you have to change all other systems.

Come on Joe you got some work to do.

LOL

Good luck getting Joe to do all that just so you don't have collect Sachen games.

Why not have a section for each game company. Or a seperate section for each game?

Much like MOST other systems listed the current DP guide the NES has 5 sections.

US game releases
NON-US game releases
Prototypes and one of a kinds
Non-cart items
and
Rumor mill

The only section not seen with NES that is seen on some other systems would be a homebrew section which is possible should they start to pop up.

This is what you have to work with. These 5 (and soon to be 6) sections.

Now using these categories and these categories ONLY give me a definition of what qualifies as a US release. Remember every game has to fit into one of these 5 categories.

You guys are working backwards. You have the results in your head that you would like to achieve so you try to set up sections to have the games plop into categories best suited to your liking.

The only way to do this is to determine sections which would apply to every system first. Then look at each game and place them in the category for each system in which they belong.

Or maybee you tried that but then you didn't care for the results and went back again to re-define the categories. Repeat as necessary to produce desired results.

Now if you can come up with a definition of each of the 6 categories which is used for EVERY system in the current DP guide and find that that these definitions suit every game for every system BUT Sachen games in the NES system well then a new section may be needed. Until then, I say they are right where they belong.

Adam

Adam -

Not sure if you were directing this towards me, or towards 1bigmig, but I will assume it's me for the purposes of discussion.

Re-read any of my posts above. I have been extremely clear, in that I never said that the DP should be broken down this way. Nor did I say that this categorical system should be the end-all, be-all list system for collectors.

What I did say, however, is that is how I choose to categorize the entire list in terms of my collecting. To me, Sachen is no different than Panesian, Color Dreams, etc.

I don't see how this categorical breakdown is a way to "avoid collecting Sachen games."

A game is either licensed or unlicensed. FACT. NO room for interpretation there. A game is "accessory related" if it can't be physically played without a separate accessory. That game may be licensed (Miracle Piano) or unlicensed (Aladdin deck & games) - just subsets of the category. It should be well established that the only games that fall into the "Not intended for resale" (or call it what you want) are the NWC carts. Protos are protos - they should have their own category.

As for Rumor Mill, it's nice for historical references, but who cares? I can't find these anywhere, so I can't collect them. Nuff said.

Homebrews? I guess that would be another section, but so what? Are people incapable of adding another couple of lines to their list?

Again, let me stress two points that I had thought I made clear in my previous posts.

1. This is how I do it. You all have your own methods - use what you like. Simply stating that how the DP guide does it, "is the way it should be", is just fucking stupid.

2. The only thing that I commented about the DP guide for the NES list is that, if it incorporates Sachen games in the list, it should change the title at the top of the page. It currently says "US Releases" (or something like that). This is a point of contention, in regards to the Sachen games. I don't believe that they should be removed from the list, just simply change the heading to imply that it's a comprehensive list of NTSC, Non-Japanese games that can be played on your US NES system.

That covers it all. Whether they were released here or not - they're all included. No one can argue the Sachen games don't fit into that heading - and the stupid case is closed.

[1bigmig]

First, I dont see this list as being excessive - eliminating the accessory category above since these easily fit into licensed/nonlicensed categories:

1. Licensed
2. Unlicensed
3. Not Intended for Sale - NWC, yellow test carts
4. Protos
5. Hardware
6. Homebrews
7. Non US releases - I dont see the need for splitting this since the guide is primarily for the US market and this is just bonus.

Like orrimarrko said about rumor mill, "...who cares? I can't find these anywhere, so I can't collect them. Nuff said."


Orrimarrko: I don't believe that they should be removed from the list, just simply change the heading to imply that it's a comprehensive list of NTSC, Non-Japanese games that can be played on your US NES system.

I think this was the one of the main issues, calling these US releases was the problem. He's right


buyatari: You guys are working backwards. You have the results in your head that you would like to achieve so you try to set up sections to have the games plop into categories best suited to your liking.

No, why should these categories be different for any other system? If this issue came up for the Playstation these categories or a change of heading would work just as well.

I dont think the categories now are bad at all, but only changing the heading and splitting licensed and nonlicensed games apart would be nice.

Finally, I strongly agree that there should be a note about things like the BoS rerelease.

[TRM]

http://www.nesplayer.com/database/info/patent_nesconvertor.jpg

Nintendo had placed a patent on this Nintendo/Famicom adapter in the US. However, Nintendo didn't intend on releasing Famicom games in the states.

How does this play into the Sachen debate? Although Sachen patented their cartridge design in the US, it doesn't necessarily mean that they had planned on releasing the games in the states.

Just thought I would throw this out there.

[1bigmig]

http://www.nesplayer.com/database/info/patent_nesconvertor.jpg

Nintendo had placed a patent on this Nintendo/Famicom adapter in the US. However, Nintendo didn't intend on releasing Famicom games in the states.

How does this play into the Sachen debate? Although Sachen patented their cartridge design in the US, it doesn't necessarily mean that they had planned on releasing the games in the states.

Just thought I would throw this out there.

Stirring up trouble TRM LOL LOL

[sniperCCJVQ]

This I WOULD really like to see and not just on NES but on all systems. In Atari 2600 for sears for example there really should be 2 line entries (don't need a whole new description) for Picture and Text labels. For Atari games silver/grey/gatefold etc etc etc.

IF NOT then it should at least be noted which variations do exist in the description and if there is one which is rarer or worth more than any of the others.

Adam

Here very cool link :

http://www.atariguide.com/lists/masterlist1.html

[Slipdeath]

i also think they should have a section for limited editons, or special editiions

And what titles would those be? There aren't any that I am aware of. The "Not intented for resale" covers and demo carts and the NWC carts.

Other than that, I can't think of any other titles that qualify.
i dont know much about nes, but im saying special edition section like for sonic le, donkey kong compition edition,shenmue limited etc etc, apart from the standard releases

[Buyatari]

Not sure if you were directing this towards me, or towards 1bigmig, but I will assume it's me for the purposes of discussion.



Finally, should the DP Guide be broken into these sections? I would say it should.

None of this is being directed towards you Orrimarrko. You are off making your own list, for your use ,with your own guidelines. Knock yourself out.


Nintendo had placed a patent on this Nintendo/Famicom adapter in the US. However, Nintendo didn't intend on releasing Famicom games in the states.

How does this play into the Sachen debate? Although Sachen patented their cartridge design in the US, it doesn't necessarily mean that they had planned on releasing the games in the states.


But where is this adapter? No one has one.

Its a COMBINATION of the intent to distribute in the United States AND the evidence that the product itself was manufactured. With out being manufactured its just rumor mill no matter where they planned to release it.

Now why doesn't someone just ask Sachen when they first sold these games to customers in the US. Get the guys on the phone and just ask them.

"Did you sell a single 72 pin NES game to anyone in the United States during the time period of 1985-1995"

If they answer yes will that be enough proof for you?

Even if they said no which I would highly doubt I'd still consider them US releases. Because of when they were manufactured and where they were intended to be distrubited.

Adam

[Buyatari]

i dont know much about nes, but im saying special edition section like for sonic le, donkey kong compition edition,shenmue limited etc etc, apart from the standard releases

The Dp guide places these under the category Prototypes and One-of-a Kinds if they are rare enough.

I'm sure the Donkey Kong Competiton will qualify when SNES is finally added to the DP guide. I doubt the limited Shenmue will even be listed as a seperate game as its more of a variation and its not very rare. As for Sonic I dunno. It will certainly be given its own entry if deemed rare enough it will be alongside the protos if not it will be in with the released games.

Adam

[Dr. Morbis]

"Did you sell a single 72 pin NES game to anyone in the United States during the time period of 1985-1995"

If they answer yes will that be enough proof for you?

Absolutely not. Just because one (or a couple) cartridges dribbled their way into the US, we are now going to count 64 (65?) games as "U.S. Game Releases"?!?!?!

FACT: the Sachen games are 72-pin NTSC NES games.
FACT: the Sachen games were NOT "released" in the US.

Either change the heading of the NES US games category (ie: replace the word 'released' with something else) or put the Sachens in their own seperate list. Take your pick. But to leave them in a list titled "U.S. game releases" is a fallacy.

[TheRedEye]

FACT: the Sachen games were NOT "released" in the US.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, the word "fact" refers to something irrefutable, something objectively true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Show me where this has been proven, and I'll take these games out of the list myself.

Also, define "released." I define it along the lines of "To our knowledge, sold in the country in question." To my knowledge, Sachen games were sold here starting in 1992.

I'm this close to calling Taiwan right now.

[Darth Vader]

I'm this close to calling Taiwan right now.

LOL LOL

[nesman85]

that might be a good idea. someone should call 'em up and ask. then we'll have a definite answer.

[1bigmig]

The Sachen website has been down for a while now, so who knows if the company even exists anymore.

http://www.sachen.com.tw/

[TheRedEye]

They also ended their copyright just months ago, and are no longer taking orders. I have contact info for the (former?) president...but he no speak good engrish.

[nesman85]

if you have his email address, you could type up an email, have it translated, and then send it to him. Or if you just have his number you can find out how to say the questions that you want to ask, then record his answers and get them translated.

[TheRedEye]

http://www.theredeye.net/1337.gif

[TRM]

Another thing which doesn't quite add up is this. Why would Sachen license some of their titles out to other companies to publish (games such as Color Dreams and American Video Entertainment come to mind) if they were already releasing the games in American themselves? It's not like Color Dreams or American Video were big-name game publishers of the day.

[TheRedEye]

Do you want my honest theory on that, based on my dealings with them?

Thin Chen Enterprise Co., Ltd. is fucking retarded, and has almost no business sense whatsoever. The quality of their games is a good indication of the quality of their business ethics.