U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[TonyTheTiger]

Well, it would seem a sticker is the necessary step that needed to be taken. Not just intention, but a physical representation of this intention.

Well, yeah, that was everybody's point from the start, mine included. We've gone back and forth over whether or not a sticker is substantial enough a step. If it is, then we're talking literally the smallest, most haphazard bottom of the barrel act works. I'm not sure what action could be smaller than a single sticker. A "U.S." written in pencil?

Again, does Radiant Silvergun have anything to distinguish it from other releases? Then how exactly is it even remotely the same? The sticker proves that the game was intended for release in the US at some point. Find me a Radiant Silvergun sticker, and I'll agree with you. Until then...

I'm sure Radiant Silvergun has GameStop receipt paper supporting it, if that's something. Either way we get to the same problem of the authenticity of the individual item (rather than the general intent on the part of the publisher) since for all we know a bunch of Sonic stickers could be forged (certainly an easy prospect). At this point, even if Sonic is hands down no ifs ands or buts about it an American game we're back at square one. How the fuck is anybody supposed to authenticate if they got the real deal?

It probably wasn't much of an issue before since Sonic wasn't exactly a super high profile game. But if word of this recent sale starts spreading? If the shock of the $1,000 UPC sticker starts getting out there? Sure, Sonic is an American game. But good luck picking a copy out of a lineup.

It's like having an autograph with no paperwork vs one with paperwork. No contest.

That's not true. It's definitely easier to authenticate an autograph than a UPC sticker. The paperwork is a marvelous help and value, sure, but it's not the absolute exclusive gatekeeper.

Interesting on Shenmue II. Not surprising. Let's face it, if you have a trained eye, SMS games will make your head hurt trying to find all the variants. Sega for the 90's stickers. 'Made in Canada' stickers put over the 'Made in ?'. And the Sonic we're all babbling about. Sega does shit weird, always did. A collector's worst nightmare (cept C64 or 2600).

No, a collector's worst nightmare is probably ending up in a situation where he can't distinguish between the real deal and good forgeries, which has been the unfortunate implication of this thread the entire time.

[Sunnyvale]

Well, yeah, that was everybody's point from the start. We've gone back and forth over whether or not a sticker is substantial enough a step. If it is, then we're talking literally the smallest, most haphazard bottom of the barrel act works. I'm not sure what action could be smaller than a single sticker. A "U.S." written in pencil?



I'm sure Radiant Silvergun has GameStop receipt paper supporting it, if that's something. Either way we get to the same problem of the authenticity of the individual item (rather than the general intent on the part of the publisher) since for all we know a bunch of Sonic stickers could be forged (certainly an easy prospect). At this point, even if Sonic is hands down no ifs ands or buts about it an American game we're back at square one. How the fuck is anybody supposed to authenticate if they got the real deal?

It probably wasn't much of an issue before since Sonic wasn't exactly a super high profile game. But if word of this recent sale starts spreading? If the shock of the $1,000 UPC sticker starts getting out there? Sure, Sonic is an American game. But good luck picking a copy out of a lineup.



That's not true. It's definitely easier to authenticate an autograph than a UPC sticker. The paperwork is a marvelous help and value, sure, but it's not the absolute exclusive gatekeeper.



No, a collector's worst nightmare is probably ending up in a situation where he can't distinguish between the real deal and good forgeries, which has been the unfortunate implication of this thread the entire time.

And we are back to square one! I addressed this in the beginning of the thread, and kinda left before understatement and I derailed it into MtG
If there is a serious question on the authenticity of the sticker, a simple chemical test of the paper and ink would tell for certain. And, as the buyer pointed out, the stickers are slightly mettallic, not something easy to reproduce. I know testing it chemically sounds extreme. It has been done before with collectibles, and will be done again.

If I don't find my Sonic in the wild, you can be damn sure it's going to a lab when I get one.

Go ahead skar, hit me with your Horatio lines

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't think there's enough information contained within the sticker to actually extract, even with chemical testing. It's unlikely Sega used any kind of special printing techniques that can't be reproduced by the average person. It's a silly UPC sticker. What company is going to invest anything more than necessary for something like that? The only alternative is trying to establish whether the sticker is 20 years old or not. But the thing about dating is that it's inexact. Even carbon dating, what they use to determine the ages of shit like fossils, leaves open a gigantic range of time.

If people have successfully snuck forged baseball cards through professional graders (it has happened) then what the hell do you expect is going to happen with a UPC code printed on a sticker paper that is more than likely easily found today?

You've been told before that you're overestimating what can be done and I'll echo that now. You're overestimating it by a longshot. Show a professional a pristine Sonic with an authentic pristine sticker and a pristine Sonic with a forged sticker and I'd say that professional will fare no better than chance, CSI bullshit or otherwise.

I'd be willing to participate in this experiment but then we'll all be accused of forging stickers and showing the world how to do it. No real way to test this without causing a shitstorm.

[Sunnyvale]

I don't think there's enough information contained within the sticker to actually extract, even with chemical testing. It's unlikely Sega used any kind of special printing techniques that can't be reproduced by the average person. It's a silly UPC sticker. What company is going to invest anything more than necessary for something like that? The only alternative is trying to establish whether the sticker is 20 years old or not. But the thing about dating is that it's inexact. Even carbon dating, what they use to determine the ages of shit like fossils, leaves open a gigantic range of time.

There is enough chemical information in a microscopic shred of paper to determine it's makeup. And yes, paper made in China will be different than that made in Egypt.

If people have successfully snuck forged baseball cards through professional graders (it has happened) then what the hell do you expect is going to happen with a UPC code printed on a sticker paper that is more than likely easily found today?

So they know for a fact that people have snuck baseball cards by proffesional graders because... other graders caught it? Umm...

You've been told before that you're overestimating what can be done and I'll echo that now. You're overestimating it by a longshot. Show a professional a pristine Sonic with an authentic pristine sticker and a pristine Sonic with a forged sticker and I'd say that professional will fare no better than chance, CSI bullshit or otherwise.

I will politely call your statement a religious one. I am a pothead, and I sell second hand shit for a living. But I know that chemical analysis is frequently used to verify all kinds of things, and you probably do as well, but are refusing to admit it. Fuck carbon dating, I'm talking chemical makeup. Grab your Strider sticker and your Sonic sticker, and test them both (unless you think people are forging Striders, too). They'll either match or not. But hey, why take the word of a guy with '420' in his name, eh?

http://www.freemanart.ca/

Freemanart are subsequently unrivalled internationally as experts in their field. An expert art authenticity agency pursuing complex international art fraud and forgery investigations which are accomplished through both academic & forensic art analysis and in depth private investigations.

This includes investigating the authenticity and authentication of paintings & fine art of all types and origins, of all forms and from all genres, regions, artists and periods, on the ground and at source.

If they can do it with a painting, they can do it with a sticker. Money is the only factor here, and the game fetches a lot of money...

[Hawksmoor]

[Aussie2B]

If anything, I think this discussion proves that games can't be categorized in terms as black and white as they currently tend to be. We can't call everything "so-and-so-country/region release". Why can't we just call SMS Sonic and games in similar scenarios what they actually are? That is: "so-and-so-country/region game officially distributed in so-and-so-other-country/region". Clearly, games like SMS Sonic are special. Just calling it a European game doesn't tell the whole story. But it doesn't deserve to be called a legitimate US release, like those that were manufactured for release solely in the US, when it's an imported product that only saw a minor addition to its package (especially if you can break the product down with certain pieces having no distinguishable difference from its country of origin; it's silly to say you have a US box and an European cart/manual when all of the pieces have always been together). I think these three categories would make things very easy and clear, and I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that. Granted, yes, it would create a lot of work for whoever would want to document these special products. I would suggest to err on the side of caution until solid proof is documented of authorization for distribution, like a UPC from the publisher, an ESRB rating, a receipt from a major chain, etc. (since you don't want to include every random import that's been brought unofficially into the country by a small independent game shop or whatever).

[TonyTheTiger]

snip.

Tell ya what. Go get some UPC stickers tested and then we'll talk. Doesn't have to be Sonic or even a Master System UPC. You wanted evidence so bad, well here's your chance to back up your claims. If it works in your favor then I'll tip my hat to ya.

[The Shawn]

If anything, (No offence Aussie2B)

Who really gives a fuck at this point?

Some dude sold a rare game, that someone else at least concedes is rare because he BOUGHT the fucking thing. He's happy with his sale I suspect this close to Christmas, the buyer is happy as he has been wanting this game for a long time. Everyone get's reacharounds in the end. Then you people come in here and basically shit all over both dudes 'happytimes'.

Fuck, go do something with yourselves.

*me goes back to my AM natty light buzz and playing Dead Island...

[TonyTheTiger]

Shit all over their happytimes? Not a single person has said they weren't happy that the buyer and seller were happy. How many times do I have to repeat myself when I say that the dollar value of the item has nothing to do with the issue of distribution/production/etc.? How in God's name is this conversation disparaging their transaction?

[The Shawn]

Shit all over their happytimes? Not a single person has said they weren't happy that the buyer and seller were happy. How many times do I have to repeat myself when I say that the dollar value of the item has nothing to do with the issue of distribution/production/etc.?

Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

[Sunnyvale]

Tell ya what. Go get some UPC stickers tested and then we'll talk. Doesn't have to be Sonic or even a Master System UPC. You wanted evidence so bad, well here's your chance to back up your claims. If it works in your favor then I'll tip my hat to ya.

Wow. OK, I'll go grab a chemistry degree, and then...

I'm not the one clamouring for evidence here. You are asserting it is easily faked. I point out commonly understood technologies, and you point-n-laugh.

I'll tell you what. Go get 2 pieces of paper from different manufacturers, a kid's chemistry set, and test the two in a simple acid-base test. When they give you different results, think about what a guy paid to do it with a full lab could figure out.

And c'mon now, this:

Snip.

Let's not do that.

[TonyTheTiger]

Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

Um, quote me. Go find where I said it was a waste of money and not worth it or anything even remotely similar. I dare you. Because you won't find it, not here or anywhere.

Wow. OK, I'll go grab a chemistry degree, and then...

I'm not the one clamouring for evidence here. You are asserting it is easily faked. I point out commonly understood technologies, and you point-n-laugh.

I'll tell you what. Go get 2 pieces of paper from different manufacturers, a kid's chemistry set, and test the two in a simple acid-base test. When they give you different results, think about what a guy paid to do it with a full lab could figure out.

You're the one making the assertion here. If you say something can be done then it's on you to prove it can. If I tell you there's a clown living in my closet it's not up to you to prove that there isn't one.

And c'mon now, this:



Let's not do that.

What? That's a perfectly legitimate way to trim down chain posts. It doesn't mean anything negative if that's what you think.

[TonyTheTiger]

Double Post

[The Shawn]

Um, quote me. Go find where I said it was a waste of money and not worth it or anything even remotely similar. I dare you. Because you won't find it, not here or anywhere.

Do you double dare me?

Are you for fucking real?

I'm just saying you come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche who needs to be pwend. And that's the way everyone is taking your argument.

[TonyTheTiger]

Do you double dare me?

Are you for fucking real?

I'm just saying you come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche who needs to be pwend. And that's the way everyone is taking your argument.

So you pretended one thing, got told otherwise, and now you're gonna pwn me. Coo.

And say what you mean and mean what you say. If you were saying I come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche you should have said it. But you didn't. 'Cause that's not what you were saying at all.

[NerdXCrewWill]

First, let me commend Sunnyvale for replying like a gentleman. Reading back on our discussion, I see that some might read some extra 'tude between the lines. I just want you to know I did not intend it as such. You've done a good job expanding on your original position.

I contend that 'everyone' should know you can't compare 90's marketing technology to modern day, but apparently not

I'm still not sure why we wouldn't be able to compare the two. Sorry, haha. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

The other changes have plenty of bearing if you want to compare GBA with SMS.

Those two links you posted didn't mention anything about changes in the UPC barcode system the years between 1991 and 2003. In my quick 10 minutes Googling, I've discovered that UPC scanners became popular in the 90s and that possibly more EAN numbers were added in that decade. I'm beginning to think we're just misunderstanding each other about this point.

Does your copy of Radiant Silvergun have a different UPC than a Japanese version?

I don't know, as I don't own either copy of Radiant Silvergun. I do think that it would follow that a receipt by a licensed major retailer would serve the same proof as a UPC sticker though. That part is up to interpretation, I guess.

After participating in this thread, I actually now, more than ever, believe Sonic is a US release. I also think maybe the collecting community should either accept officially sanctioned imports as part of regional sets, or just settle for distinguishing sets by language, or at least ask themselves what constitutes a full set (of any sort) so we don't run into weird potential inconsistencies.

[The Shawn]

So you pretended one thing, got told otherwise, and now you're gonna pwn me. Coo.

I told you how you're coming off. I said how people are seeing you at this point. I never really pretend anything. I never quoted you. I never said I was going to 'pwend' you. I merely stated how you were being concieved. And perhaps why you are getting the shit you are. Oh well.

And what to fuck is "Coo" are you a pigeon?

[TonyTheTiger]

I told you how you're coming off. I said how people are seeing you at this point. I never really pretend anything. I never quoted you. I never said I was going to 'pwend' you. I merely stated how you were being concieved. And perhaps why you are getting the shit you are. Oh well.

And what to fuck is "Coo" are you a pigeon?

First of all, I don't think I'm getting any shit from anybody but you. Sunnyvale and I had a back and forth but I don't think it got heated unless a call for evidence or a back and forth over the proper placement of burden of proof are read as "angry" or whatever. I certainly never intended to come across as beligerent toward him. If he read a response of mine that way then it was not my intent.

And second,

Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

listen to you yap about.

And, yes, now I'm being a douche.

[The Shawn]

Guess you 'pwend' ME then, Mr. Doucheydouche.

Listen to me very carefully now:

I said this is how you are being 'concieved', when I personally read your posts, I get through the yadda yadda yadda, and feel as though you are saying the game isn't worth the $. Is this correct? or no? Is this what you are in essence saying? or no? And if I was the person who bought this game I would more then likely tell you to get bent.

Black and white enough for you?

Do you understand?

Would you like some hot tea?

Are these pants to tight?

And I'm out.

[TonyTheTiger]

and feel as though you are saying the game isn't worth the $. Is this correct? or no?.

No.

Is this what you are in essence saying? or no?.

No.

It's really not my fault if you couldn't figure out that I have no objections to people spending $1k on something they personally value. The whole thing was simply about whether the game was American or not and whether other games like it were American or not. It was never about whether it was worth $1k.