U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[Gameguy]

The Genesis was a bit weirder with releases, there's numerous versions of different games floating around up here all the time. I know someone here on the forums was selling a "rare" Canadian version of Sonic 2 for $30 but that's still somewhat common up here and is maybe worth $5-$10. With some Genesis games the boxes and instructions say Genesis but the cart labels say Mega Drive on them, these I do consider to be Canadian as they have specific boxes and manuals not intended for anywhere else. I don't feel that way with the SMS games as everything was just made for another region and left as is. The new UPCs weren't even applied during manufacturing, they're on the outside of the case because the cases were already sealed shut with a sticker so the inserts couldn't be removed.

[Sunnyvale]

I have more than testimony and words on a page. I've proven pretty handily that UPC codes don't matter, at least in the context of what we're talking about. I call that pretty concrete. I've not seen anything like that from the other side.

No, you've proven that in today's market, they mean nothing. You haven't proven anything regarding the uselessness of UPC's in IDing where a game came from in this specific console's library . (Starting to feel like that's my 'Radiant Silvergun', cause I keep saying it)

No, I'm pretty confident in people's assertions that the UPC only appears on a small number of Sonics and all of those individual items were sold in America. I'm not challenging that fact. So it's not like my argument is based on the possibility that some random Sonic with UPC showed up in Peru. What I'm saying is that even accepting that the Sonics sold in America were all given a UPC, that UPC does not make the game American. It doesn't make the game anything. It's just an arbitrary sticker.

Wow. So if the guy who was half-running the show says the sticker means it's US release, not arbitrary, you disagree based on... A game from 8 years later? DS UPC's? Beating the horse again... Different times, different consoles, different rules apply. Also, should we not defer to the experts who were there?

Again, I've provided both concrete evidence and extrapolated logical scenarios based on the claims of others. That's why I keep hammering on Radiant Silvergun in the first place.

Concrete evidence that Radiant Silvergun had no sticker? Concrete evidence with DS games as evidence? You have shown nothing in regards to Sonic. Nada. 'Extrapolated' is the only word in that sentence I agree with.

As for your question, some specific intent to create a new version. See below. At least that would be the smoking gun I was talking about. Still an annoying and stupid situation but at least it would be something.

I believe them affixing a sticker over the UPC so they could sell it in the States shows some pretty damn specific intent. As does the adverts.

[understatement]

In the case of the SMS, I think they are. I'm surprised I still have this info on my PC but I saved it from when someone mentioned it years ago.

European boxes UPCs start with 4974365
American boxes UPCs start with 010086
Canadian boxes UPCs start with 069044

Yea, I just checked this and this rule is applied on most all (the only time it differed was when SEGA worked with another company) official SEGA releases to this day just checked my House of the Dead Overkill for Wii. So now that seems like some concrete evidence that a SMS Sonic with a UPC starting with 010086 is a U.S. release.

[TonyTheTiger]

Wait, so Sega still does this? That's really interesting.

[theclaw]

Yea, I just checked this and this rule is applied on most all (the only time it differed was when SEGA worked with another company) official SEGA releases to this day just checked my House of the Dead Overkill for Wii. So now that seems like some concrete evidence that a SMS Sonic with a UPC starting with 010086 is a U.S. release.

Looks like it. I checked my Super Monkey Ball, Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, Valkyria Chronicles, Bayonetta...

[NerdXCrewWill]

Wow. So if the guy who was half-running the show says the sticker means it's US release, not arbitrary, you disagree based on... A game from 8 years later? DS UPC's? Beating the horse again... Different times, different consoles, different rules apply. Also, should we not defer to the experts who were there?

I'm sorry, but I feel that this is just to big of a misstep to not comment. Just because you say this is true does not mean it is so. The United States didn't go through some major change in the 12 years between Sonic SMS and Super Mario Advanced 4 that completely changed the nature of UPC codes. The European GBA UPC example logically proves that the very nature of UPCs is not indicator of region but arbitrarily changed or kept. A counterexample is the proof of the arbitrary nature of UPCs. You can't change that, no matter how hard you will it so.

Additionally, if we as a video gaming community are willing to accept that UPC is indeed indicative of region for the SMS due to the fact that Sega was consistent with it's regional UPC numbering (evidenced by NeoZeedeater), then we must take this through to it's logical conclusion and accept that multiple video game regional set lists would now be incomplete. If we accept that UPC means something for Sonic, suddenly European copies of games for the DS with UPC stickers in America become essential for American lists.

There is no logical reason to do otherwise.

EDIT: Changed phrase "games for the GBA with UPC sticker in America" to "games for the DS with UPC sticker in America," although this would also have weird effect on the GBA game mentioned as well.

[theclaw]

After all this, it doesn't matter. Unless we disprove the UPC's rarity its price is warranted for the number of units available.

[Sunnyvale]

I'm sorry, but I feel that this is just to big of a misstep to not comment. Just because you say this is true does not mean it is so. The United States didn't go through some major change in the 12 years between Sonic SMS and Super Mario Advanced 4 that completely changed the nature of UPC codes. The European GBA UPC example logically proves that the very nature of UPCs is not indicator of region but arbitrarily changed or kept. A counterexample is the proof of the arbitrary nature of UPCs. You can't change that, no matter how hard you will it so.

Additionally, if we as a video gaming community are willing to accept that UPC is indeed indicative of region for the SMS due to the fact that Sega was consistent with it's regional UPC numbering (evidenced by NeoZeedeater), then we must take this through to it's logical conclusion and accept that multiple video game regional set lists would now be incomplete. If we accept that UPC means something for Sonic, suddenly European copies of games for the DS with UPC stickers in America become essential for American lists.

There is no logical reason to do otherwise.

EDIT: Changed phrase "games for the GBA with UPC sticker in America" to "games for the DS with UPC sticker in America," although this would also have weird effect on the GBA game mentioned as well.

How many times do I need to point out the Atari 2600 'bootlegs' before you guys put the damn blanket away?

And UPC's are vastly different than before. But I'm tired of trying to convince people technology changes drastically in 8 years time. Here's the 'smoking gun'.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/a/laurergj/upc/upc_work.html

Following the acceptance of the original U.P.C. specification, I was asked to find a way to add another digit. The symbol already held twelve, the eleven required by UGPCC and a check digit I added to achieve the required reliability. The addition of the thirteenth digit could not cause the equipment to require extensive modification. Further, the original domestic version could not be modified.

The extra digit would allow for "country identification" and make the U.P.C. world wide. Again I found a way to accommodate the requirement and the EAN (European Article Numbering system) symbol was born. Many countries are using the same symbol with their identifying country "flag" (the 13th digit), but chose to call the symbol by other names. An example is JAN (Japanese Article Numbering system), the Japanese version. The symbol has truly become world wide.

In the years since 1973, I have proposed, and the Uniform Product Code Council, Inc. (formerly UGPCC) has accepted, several other enhancements. Among these enhancements is a price check digit for domestic and another for European markets. There is also an expanded symbol, Version D, which has not yet seen wide use.

Look closely at the second paragraph.

Edit: Here's the proof of intent even clearer:

http://www.adams1.com/upccode.html

Note the Barcode on the sticker on Sonic has a US code. There's the intent to distribute, proven. And a little more history of the development of the UPC code. (Honestly, in 8 years we go from NES to N64, but UPC's didn't change?!?)

[NerdXCrewWill]

How many times do I need to point out the Atari 2600 'bootlegs' before you guys put the damn blanket away?

Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega. I was just

I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.

After all this, it doesn't matter. Unless we disprove the UPC's rarity its price is warranted for the number of units available.

This is not necessarily true. Rare things go for peanuts all the time. The value is associated with the demand created by the perception of the sticker being necessary for a U.S. SMS set.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about the value. I don't collect games in general, and the SMS is one of my least favorite video game consoles of all time. I was just getting in on the logical debate. :-)


EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

Doesn't seem like it. Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC between America and Europe, too. Maybe Nintendo just doesn't care the way Sega does?

[understatement]

Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega. I was just

I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.



This is not necessarily true. Rare things go for peanuts all the time. The value is associated with the demand created by the perception of the sticker being necessary for a U.S. SMS set.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about the value. I don't collect games in general, and the SMS is one of my least favorite video game consoles of all time. I was just getting in on the logical debate. :-)


EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

I think the problem is that people on the fence and people that think SMS Sonic should not be considered a U.S. release only see us saying the difference in the UPC is the key but that’s for this particular instance.

We all agree that Sonic without UPC sticker is different than Sonic with UPC sticker. Even if it is just the sticker you can logically tell them apart right? The non-sticker copy was only sold in Europe and the sticker copy was only sold in the U.S. right? The next logical conclusion to me is to say non-sticker copy = EU and sticker copy = U.S.

Now we put Radiant Silvergun (a game with a similar history) to the same test a U.S. purchased copy next to a Japanese purchased copy and can you tell what one is what? I say no they’re identical down to the last pixel in the last piece of Japanese text.

Then there’s things like the GBA games where they say “see the UPC doesn’t count for that much” and in the GBA games case no it doesn’t but when you put them through the same test low and behold you can tell what game is what without the need of the UPC.

Now with the variant argument I’ll say it again if SMS Sonic got a reprint in the U.S. that changed something on the packaging it would be a variant and if it was the same it would be a second print run.

So in conclusion I’m not saying the UPC should be taken as an absolute for defining what region a game was released in (in this case it just happens to work) but each game should be taken case by case. Seems most people agree with this for things like Atari but somehow after Nintendo everything has to be black and white?

[TRM]

I think the problem is that people on the fence and people that think SMS Sonic should not be considered a U.S. release only see us saying the difference in the UPC is the key but that’s for this particular instance.

We all agree that Sonic without UPC sticker is different than Sonic with UPC sticker. Even if it is just the sticker you can logically tell them apart right? The non-sticker copy was only sold in Europe and the sticker copy was only sold in the U.S. right? The next logical conclusion to me is to say non-sticker copy = EU and sticker copy = U.S.

Now we put Radiant Silvergun (a game with a similar history) to the same test a U.S. purchased copy next to a Japanese purchased copy and can you tell what one is what? I say no they’re identical down to the last pixel in the last piece of Japanese text.

Then there’s things like the GBA games where they say “see the UPC doesn’t count for that much” and in the GBA games case no it doesn’t but when you put them through the same test low and behold you can tell what game is what without the need of the UPC.

Now with the variant argument I’ll say it again if SMS Sonic got a reprint in the U.S. that changed something on the packaging it would be a variant and if it was the same it would be a second print run.

So in conclusion I’m not saying the UPC should be taken as an absolute for defining what region a game was released in (in this case it just happens to work) but each game should be taken case by case. Seems most people agree with this for things like Atari but somehow after Nintendo everything has to be black and white?

But as I mentioned earlier, how can one tell the difference between a loose American copy, and a loose European copy? Do all loose American copies suddenly become European, since they no longer have the box with the UPC? I just can't wrap my head around this point.

[Sunnyvale]

Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

I contend that 'everyone' should know you can't compare 90's marketing technology to modern day, but apparently not

Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

The other changes have plenty of bearing if you want to compare GBA with SMS.

I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega.

I know. Tonythetiger is the one saying there is no evidence of intent.

I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.

Does your copy of Radiant Silvergun have a different UPC than a Japanese version?

EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

No clue. I don't collect GBA games. And, as one who doesn't collect the games, I am ready to immediately concede that I know nothing of the regional rarities, variations, international releases...

Which is something I wish the non-SMS collectors would consider here. 53 CIB games and 11 loose, and counting

[TonyTheTiger]

I know. Tonythetiger is the one saying there is no evidence of intent.

Intent to sell and intent to create are two different things. I never said they didn't intend to sell the game.

[PapaStu]

But as I mentioned earlier, how can one tell the difference between a loose American copy, and a loose European copy? Do all loose American copies suddenly become European, since they no longer have the box with the UPC? I just can't wrap my head around this point.

Yes, because they are from the same stock. The differences are not in the game, but in the packaging. Look back at 2600 stuff that would be 'PAL' or 'US'. Sometimes, that difference, was just something on the box.




So the SamSho on the right is a US copy correct? That ESRB sticker that was placed on there by the manufacturer makes it so. Ignore the fact that if you just saw the cart, or went by any of the other packaing info on it, you'd be seeing a EURO release. The STICKER makes it different. In most collectors eyes, they won't give two shits. Some do. Those that do, they collect this stuff.

THE STICKER WAS PUT ON BY SEGA. NOT A STORE, NOT ANYONE ELSE. IT WAS SOLD STATESIDE, BY SEGA, TO STORES, WHO THEN SOLD THEM TO US.

THIS.IS.A.US.GAME.

[Daria]

I'd also like to point out that in Europe EA would shove American Genesis cartridges in Mega Drive Packaging. So you have the opposite issue of there being no such thing as a European cart-only Buck Rogers.

[Bojay1997]

Yes, because they are from the same stock. The differences are not in the game, but in the packaging. Look back at 2600 stuff that would be 'PAL' or 'US'. Sometimes, that difference, was just something on the box.




So the SamSho on the right is a US copy correct? That ESRB sticker that was placed on there by the manufacturer makes it so. Ignore the fact that if you just saw the cart, or went by any of the other packaing info on it, you'd be seeing a EURO release. The STICKER makes it different. In most collectors eyes, they won't give two shits. Some do. Those that do, they collect this stuff.

THE STICKER WAS PUT ON BY SEGA. NOT A STORE, NOT ANYONE ELSE. IT WAS SOLD STATESIDE, BY SEGA, TO STORES, WHO THEN SOLD THEM TO US.

THIS.IS.A.US.GAME.

I think using SNK as an example of anything is a terrible idea. I have been an SNK/Neo Geo collector for years and generally, collectors describe their games as English or Japanese. SNK in Torrance, California actually sold the English boxed Neo Geo Pocket black and white games via mail order and even distributed them to some independent game stores like NCS. I don't think you would find any SNK collector who calls those "US Releases". They are English releases. I bought mine from SNK USA directly and I have the receipt, but they are identical to the ones that were sold in Europe and parts of Asia. Similarly, unless an AES game is dog tagged, they are generally described as English if they are the non-Japanese version.

As for Sonic, has anyone proven that Sega actually affixed that UPC? Does it fit with Sega's US barcoding scheme? How do you know Sega distributed it to stores? As far as I know, Sega has not done their own distribution in many, many years if ever.

[Sunnyvale]

Intent to sell and intent to create are two different things. I never said they didn't intend to sell the game.

Sorry, I missed the 'ninja edit'

But you are saying that it's not a US release because of the sticker, although you concede is was intended to be sold in the States, correct?

Am I missing something here? The factory that makes Oreos, with all kinds of boxes they put them in. Are you going to say that the Oreos shipped to France weren't really intended for France because the difference is just a box?

[TonyTheTiger]

Sorry, I missed the 'ninja edit'

But you are saying that it's not a US release because of the sticker, although you concede is was intended to be sold in the States, correct?

What I was saying is that something can be sold somewhere, with publisher intent to do so, yet still be a mere import. Dead horse here but...Radiant Silvergun. Of course there was "intent" to sell Sonic. That was never part of the problem. Whether or not the mere intent to sell an item from a different region automatically converts the game into a local copy is what was up for debate, and what changes to the item (if any) are necessary to complete the transformation.

Am I missing something here? The factory that makes Oreos, with all kinds of boxes they put them in. Are you going to say that the Oreos shipped to France weren't really intended for France because the difference is just a box?

Well that was the basis for my alternate proposition of why Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II can't qualify as American when they essentially had the same treatment. Let's say you're right about the Oreo thing there and Sonic, too. My original argument was that, if that is the case, then why aren't we counting other things as separate U.S. releases, too? I said before that Sonic being American is something I can at least somewhat accept but what I couldn't accept was the line drawn between Sonic and every other officially distributed import. It sounded arbitrary to me. My argument could be reduced to "Call Sonic U.S. if you want, but then you better call a lot of things U.S., too, because there's no meaningful difference."

But since the revelation of Sega taking a far greater interest in UPC codes than other publishers, there's certainly more wiggle room for that line to exist, I suppose. Although I did look up Shenmue II and the European UPC does not follow the trend.

[Sunnyvale]

What I was saying is that something can be sold somewhere, with publisher intent to do so, yet still be a mere import. Dead horse here but...Radiant Silvergun. Of course there was "intent" to sell Sonic. That was never part of the problem. Whether or not the mere intent to sell an item from a different region automatically converts the game into a local copy is what was up for debate, and what changes to the item (if any) are necessary to complete the transformation.

Well, it would seem a sticker is the necessary step that needed to be taken. Not just intention, but a physical representation of this intention.

Well that was the basis for my alternate proposition of why Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II can't qualify as American when they essentially had the same treatment. Let's say you're right about the Oreo thing there and Sonic, too. My original argument was that, if that is the case, then why aren't we counting other things as separate U.S. releases, too? I said before that Sonic being American is something I can at least somewhat accept but what I couldn't accept was the line drawn between Sonic and every other officially distributed import. It sounded arbitrary to me. My argument could be reduced to "Call Sonic U.S. if you want, but then you better call a lot of things U.S., too, because there's no meaningful difference."

Again, does Radiant Silvergun have anything to distinguish it from other releases? Then how exactly is it even remotely the same? The sticker proves that the game was intended for release in the US at some point. Find me a Radiant Silvergun sticker, and I'll agree with you. Until then...

It's like having an autograph with no paperwork vs one with paperwork. No contest.

But since the revelation of Sega taking a far greater interest in UPC codes than other publishers, there's certainly more wiggle room for that line to exist, I suppose. Although I did look up Shenmue II and the European UPC does not follow the trend.

Interesting on Shenmue II. Not surprising. Let's face it, if you have a trained eye, SMS games will make your head hurt trying to find all the variants. Sega for the 90's stickers. 'Made in Canada' stickers put over the 'Made in ?'. And the Sonic we're all babbling about. Sega does shit weird, always did. A collector's worst nightmare (cept C64 or 2600).