And just one other comment...it appears that this is one game where one has to have the box in order to have the game. Can a US version of Sonic exist, cart only?
And just one other comment...it appears that this is one game where one has to have the box in order to have the game. Can a US version of Sonic exist, cart only?
No, it can't. That's why it's so daft. A cart only Sonic magically becomes a European copy.
Nope. Carts can't be identified.
Last edited by theclaw; 12-19-2011 at 11:56 AM.
Lum fan.
Of course the UPC is rare. But it's rare memorabilia that happens to be associated with Sonic. That alone may make it worth a pretty penny but that's neither here nor there. While it can still be a rare collectable I don't think it has magical powers to change a random Euro copy into an American one. Presumably a copy has to be created somehow. New versions of games don't pop up out of thin air.Originally Posted by theclaw
Like I said, there's no smoking gun that Sega took any steps to "create" American copies. There's no evidence that they wanted this copy to be American. They just wanted to sell a copy to Americans, whatever copy they happened to have access to at the time.
If we're going to consider Sega grabbing a box of Sonics from their European stock at random, sticking a UPC label on it, and then selling it to a waning market just because they can as "creating" American copies then we have low ass standards.
EDIT: Sorry, missed ninja edit.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 12-19-2011 at 12:04 PM.
This is one of my problems with the whole situation. We have a game which has a box with the text in the Dutch language, and likewise, it is the one game that HAS to be bought with the box. I guess SMS collectors who do not collect CIB or CB cannot complete a cart-only collection, like someone could with NES or something.
If you’re talking about a site like DP’s list where only a few staff members can add things and the primary staff is from the U.S. of course there not going to put all their time to making a llist for every system in every country their going to focus on their own country and a few of the rarer games out side of it. Even if you look at some of the larger non-U.S. listed games most of them don’t have a write-up and/or Scarcity.
If you're talking about a site like R.F. generation where anyone can add a game it's no one’s fault but yours if the Canadian version isn’t on the list go there and add it. (That’s not meant to be as assholey as it sounds just saying don’t take to heart DP’s list it hasn’t been updated in what like 6~7 years or longer)
Last edited by understatement; 12-19-2011 at 02:21 PM.
I think it's reasonable to say a SMS non-CIB collection can be complete without the UPC sticker. That sticker's only necessary if you want the American packaging.
By the way, this thread really makes me want a US copy of Radiant Silvergun for my collection! Also, understatement, where did you get your copy of Final Bout? If it was imported without consent to resell by a mom-and-pop store, I'm going to probably resist your claim to having a US copy. It it was officially sanctioned, though, you should probably hold on to that. It's got to be the centerpiece of your collection!
Speaking of Final Bout, there's a game that got two completely separate releases by two completely different publishers in America (including two different UPC codes) yet those are generally considered mere variants of each other rather than separate titles. The re-release even caused the value of the original to plummet. All those changes but, nope, same game.
It's amazing how a European Sonic becomes a completely distinct item for so much less than that. It makes no sense. What, just because there was no other U.S. version of Sonic that it entitles the game to an entry in U.S. release lists in spite of the obvious? That's silly.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 12-19-2011 at 03:42 PM.
I Consider my Final Bout a Jap copy in the same way I would Consider Radiant Silvergun.
I got FB from Game X Change back when the U.S. copy was going for $100+ in 99~2000.
It was just about the same story as Radiant Silvergun it was only there to sell the overstock of PSx systems as the PS2 was about to come out.
When FB was rereleased the price went down because more copies where around. If SMS sonic got a U.S. rerelease with all new artwork new UPC new everything there would be more of them and the price would not be where it is.
You don’t want to change your mind and those that disagree don’t want to change their minds about all we can do is agree to disagree. But I would really like to see you find one of these just to see if you would keep to your convictions and sell it on here for $5 or go full hypocrite and bold out MADE IN USA on ebay.
You're acting as if my problem has to do with the price. I've said countless times that price has nothing to do with it. Your entire post focuses on the cost of Final Bout and Sonic. Frankly, I'm not an idiot. If I had a copy of Sonic + UPC I'd sell it for a mint right now. I don't care how much people want to pay for it. I just think it's silly to consider it a U.S. game.
That's a really good observation too.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm glad to see that this topic took off (although I've unfortunately fallen way behind with keeping up with this topic). I think it's healthy to debate and reconsider what's been established by the community in the past. I don't care if even Joe himself said SMS Sonic was a US release (not that I'm suggesting he did; I'm just using that has a hypothetical situation), nobody is beyond questioning. I've always found the posts that Portnoyd has made in the past about potentially incorrect/skewed things in the NES collecting community interesting, like about the rarity/value of Bubble Bobble 2, and I don't know why more people aren't willing to go against the grain and not just blindly accept every established bit of information. I can understand why the collectors that actually own the item in question wouldn't want to change their view and potentially devalue or alter the status of their collection, but for everybody else, there shouldn't be any bias.
*edit - never mind, I said something that didn't quite make sense. I guess there's no delete.
Last edited by NeoZeedeater; 12-19-2011 at 08:10 PM.
No, I'm acting like you don't understand what makes SMS Sonic a U.S. game and I'm telling you it is the UPC sticker. That sticker was not sold in China, North Korea, Russia, japan, Brazil, or the U.K. it was only for sale in the U.S.
Going back to what Sunnyvale said about comparing games from the past to games of today it doesn't work hell even comparing one systems games to another doesn't work, like your comparison to Radiant Silvergun even though it was sold in the U.S. it has markings that say it's a Japanese game like NTSC-J, and the GBA games you argue that even tho they all share the same UPC no one counts the Euro game as part of the U.S. list I agree but there are other things besides the UPC that show it's a Euro game.
Now if you look at the EU SMS Sonic and the U.S. SMS Sonic there is a mark that says one is different from the other that's the UPC. Your trying to say that's a Euro variant that was only sold in the U.S. and that sounds like a U.S. release to me, unless there's a way to prove that the UPC sticker was used in Europe.
See, I understand where you are coming from, though I don't believe your right, I'm going to tolerate the shit out of you.
But how does the UPC transform it into an American game? Just...how? We've gone through this pages back about the idea that by giving the game a unique SKU is what makes it different. But we've seen how that's not true. Games do not need different UPC codes to be from different regions. And a game can have multiple UPC codes and not count as multiple games. It's completely arbitrary.
If you're going to say the UPC is what makes the difference you need to justify it somehow. All the evidence points to it not meaning jack. Meanwhile, all arguments going for the UPC angle aren't backed up by anything concrete.
It comes off as reverse logic. Rather than ask whether or not Sonic is American and examine the evidence to come to a conclusion, it seems like you're starting from the conclusion that Sonic is American and using the UPC as proof simply because it's literally the only thing there. If UPC codes were notoriously region specific or something like that then you'd have the evidence to back it up. But they don't work that way. It's completely arcane.
I certainly don't know why they stuck on the sticker, if it was even Sega that did it. But looking at the evidence from a few pages back it doesn't seem to have anything to do with making the game American. It's probably even a stretch to call it a variant. I'm being incredibly generous to do that, I think. It's a separate sticker on the outside of the case. Literally anybody can do that, and they do. It's not a variant in the sense that it had a separate printing or manufacturing. I'm not sure there are any popularly accepted variants out there that have only a single sticker making the difference.
You also can't say that comparing the Master System to the Saturn is inappropriate without showing just how so. You're not really making a case for it. You're just saying that you can't do it and leaving it at that. Radiant Silvergun says NTSC-J? Yeah, and Sonic is partially written in Dutch. I call that a tie.
I happen to think that given the extreme situation the burden of proof falls on the side calling for it to be American. And they simply haven't made their case. You got a mysterious UPC code that could mean lord knows what and Sega trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of its dead Master System. I'm just not seeing it. At absolute best it's a game that is equally American and European, a dual release. But that would mean a person could complete his American Master System collection with any copy of Sonic, sticker or otherwise, since they were all printed for both regions. Either way, the UPC means diddly squat.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 12-19-2011 at 09:32 PM.
OK, at this point you seem to be going overboard defending your position. No evidence?!? I put it to you there is no evidence for any SMS or NES game being released anywhere specifically, based on your definition of evidence. We have:
1)Witness testimony of high-ranking Sega officials at the time of release
2)Witness testimony of people who saw it/purchased it in stores in the USA.
3)No copies being found in the wild anywhere else have been reported.
4)Adverts from Sega proclaiming the release of Sonic in the US.
5)Three other games that have the same issue, all being US releases, all being recognized as such.
While I am generally a skeptic, it is wrong to say 'nothing concrete'. Find me concrete proof SE was pulled from shelves, and not just snapped up and hoarded. If you have just testimony and words on a page, you have the same evidence you are condemning.
It sounds like you're heading up the 'the UPC doesn't mean it came from the US, it coulda been sold like that anywhere' creek. At this point, sir, it is you who lack evidence and need to provide it. If I claim Toyotas are made in Zimbabwe, and say words from the president of Toyota aren't evidence in this argument, what exactly can you give me that's sufficient evidence? And does not the burden of proof switch to me at that point? You've made it an impossible-to-convince-you scenario. Short of a time machine, scouring every store in the world in 91, I don't think you will accept anything as evidence. If I am wrong, please give me what you would require for proof that the sticker=US release.
In the case of the SMS, I think they are. I'm surprised I still have this info on my PC but I saved it from when someone mentioned it years ago.
European boxes UPCs start with 4974365
American boxes UPCs start with 010086
Canadian boxes UPCs start with 069044
I won't add them because they're not really Canadian versions, they're European.
I know the DP guide hasn't been updated in ages, but it was mentioned how that section was written by someone who previously worked for Sega and if he put a US entry for Sonic then that's how it should be. But the same person would have written the other Euro/Canadian releases too so I'm not sure why that same person thought differently about those releases when making the guide.
Ok, what did they witness? The affixing of the stickers? The distribution of the game? All this proves is that the game was sold in America. That was never the crux of the matter. We'd have to see some specific intent to create American copies, not just distribute European ones.
Same as above. We know it was sold in American stores. So were a lot of imports. I've mentioned Radiant Silvergun like a bazillion times and I'm starting to realize the repetition is probably becoming annoying.
I fail to see how this matters. So what if the UPC was exclusive to the batch that was sold in America? You have to show that the UPC makes a difference first. What does UPC have to do with region? Show me something.
This is the same as 1 and 2. We know it was sold in America. Other imports have been sold here. Adverts tell us nothing about whether or not a game is an American copy.
Three other games that probably shouldn't be counted as U.S. games, then. Are you fishing for hypocrisy? Trust me, I'm all about consistency here.
I have more than testimony and words on a page. I've proven pretty handily that UPC codes don't matter, at least in the context of what we're talking about. I call that pretty concrete. I've not seen anything like that from the other side.
No, I'm pretty confident in people's assertions that the UPC only appears on a small number of Sonics and all of those individual items were sold in America. I'm not challenging that fact. So it's not like my argument is based on the possibility that some random Sonic with UPC showed up in Peru. What I'm saying is that even accepting that the Sonics sold in America were all given a UPC, that UPC does not make the game American. It doesn't make the game anything. It's just an arbitrary sticker.
Again, I've provided both concrete evidence and extrapolated logical scenarios based on the claims of others. That's why I keep hammering on Radiant Silvergun in the first place.
As for your question, some specific intent to create a new version. See below. At least that would be the smoking gun I was talking about. Still an annoying and stupid situation but at least it would be something.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Sales tracking, perhaps? Could make some difference. Still a strange situation, though, especially with that Canada stuff mentioned.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger; 12-19-2011 at 09:59 PM.
Canada was in a weird position with the SMS in that it got both "US-style" English-only boxes and "Euro-style" multi-language ones at the same time. I found it strange as a kid when my friends would sometimes have the same game as me but a different box/instructions. I don't consider these American or European imports, though. That's just how official Canadian releases were (and some late US releases like the Sonic we're talking about).
So whether it was for sales tracking or not, the UPC seems to be how Sega specified region. It's obvious in the later years, they didn't care much about making English-only packaging anymore. It was cheaper just to have one Western box and slap different codes on them. The fact that later boxes mention both Mega Drive and Genesis Power Base converter compatibility shows that they were meant to be region-flexible (even if many didn't make to NA after all).
That's a very good point about the Mega Drive/Genesis text. So what's the take away? The clamshells are region specific but everything else is just universal?
Posting Permissions
FTC Disclosure Notices:
This site contains affiliate links for which I may be compensated. As an eBay Partner, I may be compensated if you make a purchase.
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
Similar agreements apply to other advertising or affiliate programs such as those from Google, etc.
Copyright © 1991 - Present Digital Press. All rights reserved.
Reply With Quote
