Digital Press Store shot used on Kotaku

[skeletonking]

http://kotaku.com/5907173/yet-anothe...ill-innovation
Thought you guys would like to see this. The pic is from the store!

[Leo_A]

The risk of a game being resold too many times is why there isn't more new IP? lol

And apparantly he thinks used games are equal to piracy or he's under a terribly mistaken impression that preventing the ability to play used software will somehow also combat piracy. If anything, it's going to encourage piracy.

And used game sales are a way to help get a franchise established, not a detriment. He's going to find that there aren't going to be tens of thousands of additional consumers lining up to buy a new $60 game in a unknown series just because used games disappear. And heck, it's probably going to be less when someone doesn't have that safety valve to turn to if they end up disliking the game since many new sales are made with the understanding that they can recoup a significant part of their purchase price if they don't enjoy the game. What new IP we do have (Which sure as heck isn't going to be more than we already see) is going to find the going that much tougher if used sales aren't possible.

Buying a cheap used game in a new series is a way for someone to become interested with minimum risk. Get them hooked by making good games and they're going to want to go out buy subsequent $60 releases in that series afterwards. And with a used supply of cheap software, word of mouth over time can also help make a series successful. All those years of people buying used copies of Ico for instance when they heard about it being an overlooked gem certainly helped create interest in a game that was initially a sales flop and made further releases viable (Including two semi sequels and a HD remaster).

Take away used sales and your pool of customers is largely just going to be those that bought the game those first few weeks. Allow people to buy a used game cheaply down the road and you get free advertising that might convert them into a $60 sale on some other new release, create an opportunity to make money off them via microtransactions for the used game, or even see interest grow enough in a game that initially flopped where all of a sudden a sequel is actually viable.

[Gameguy]

I'm starting to hope they do eliminate used games from working on consoles. The sooner they implement this the sooner it will fail and things will go back to how things were while developers finally shut up about this. Of course some developers might not survive this failure, but that will just make room for new developers with actual innovation to have a chance at success.

[Jorpho]

And used game sales are a way to help get a franchise established, not a detriment. He's going to find that there aren't going to be tens of thousands of additional consumers lining up to buy a new $60 game in a unknown series just because used games disappear. And heck, it's probably going to be less when someone doesn't have that safety valve to turn to if they end up disliking the game since many new sales are made with the understanding that they can recoup a significant part of their purchase price if they don't enjoy the game. What new IP we do have (Which sure as heck isn't going to be more than we already see) is going to find the going that much tougher if used sales aren't possible.

Buying a cheap used game in a new series is a way to get people to become interested with minimum risk and actually going out and buying $60 releases in that series after falling in love. And with a used supply of cheap software, word of mouth over time can also help make a series successful. All those years of people buying used copies of Ico for instance certainly helped create enough interest in a game that was overlooked by many to make a HD remaster actually viable. Or Beyond Good & Evil. And so on...

Huh? The answer to that is simple: budget re-releases. If people aren't buying used games, budget re-releases will be that much more attractive.

[skaar]

Budget games were killed by price drops on AAA titles that were overproduced then sold through at a write down. Who would buy a budget Japanese title when they could get last year's Tiger Woods?

Two years later and Katamari never would have made it into my life!

[Greg2600]

http://kotaku.com/5907173/yet-anothe...ill-innovation
Thought you guys would like to see this. The pic is from the store!

I happen to know the photographer quite well! Ha ha. The article used his flickr picture via Creative Commons free license.

[BetaWolf47]

The use of that picture is kind of unfair though. The corporation responsible for selling mass amounts of used games is a well-known chain with 4500 locations in the nation, yet they choose to show a picture of a mom and pop store that specializes in games that haven't been available "new" for over a decade.

[Leo_A]

Huh? The answer to that is simple: budget re-releases. If people aren't buying used games, budget re-releases will be that much more attractive.

Hardly

Budget rereleases are almost always games that succeeded the first time out. GOTY releases, Greatest Hits/Platinum Hits/Nintendo Selects rereleases, "Complete Editions", etc. It's very rare to find a console game that sold poorly during its first few months actually get a rerelease for obvious reasons.

Games like Beyond Good & Evil gained much of their popularity over a period of several years after initially being a sales disappointment when new. That was made possible in part due to a plentiful supply of cheap used copies that people could buy when they read about this overlooked gem or were told about it from a friend well after its original release.

And thanks to such things, demand rose enough after initially being a flop enough to justify a rerelease on the PS2, put a sequel into production, and to do a HD remaster of the original. Prime evidence of how used game sales can help a publisher establish a franchise and make money instead of damaging one since many of those that played Beyond Good & Evil in the years after release were able to do so by buying used copies.

Yet if they had been restricted to new copies, the pool of people that would've been able to fall in love with the original game would've been far less. It would've been restricted to those that bought the game new during the first few months and afterwards when the initial run disappeared from store shelfs, limited to those that bought a new copy online (And likely at inflated prices as time went on). And due to a limited supply, it's not out of the question that things would've stopped right there.

Yet the way it went down, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people that got to experience the game was several times the number of copies produced. The supply was essentially unlimited thanks to used software sales and exposed many more people to the franchise than the # of copies sold, making fans out of many of them and turning many of those into potential customers right out of the gate for a sequel if it ever finally makes its way out.

[Dangerboy]

The use of that picture is kind of unfair though. The corporation responsible for selling mass amounts of used games is a well-known chain with 4500 locations in the nation, yet they choose to show a picture of a mom and pop store that specializes in games that haven't been available "new" for over a decade.

Dumbest thing ever said.

a. Used games isn't about GameStop. It's about US. *WE* can't resell our games. GS is a middle man - they only get their product from *US*. No used games means we close up craigslist, ebay, and buying and selling forums. Shut down DP, Next Level, and so on. Don't even bother asking to borrow a game from a friend or rent one, either. Those are all used after the first play.

But then they're losing money on new games, too. Any profit-seeker flipping LE and CEs (or currently, fucking Skylander characters) are taking money from the publishers. If someone paid $120 for a $60 LE from a reseller, that extra $60 the publisher and devs never see.

They might as well shut down VGA Slabbers along the way. $300 to some flipper means $300 lost sales to the companies.

b. Every game ever made is fair game. What do you think PSX, PS2, Neo Geo on PSN, old Atari Games on Xbox Live, old school GameBoy games on 3DS and every ROM uploaded to WiiWare are? They're up to 20+ year old games that aren't sold "new" anymore. However, you buying it used from any store or person is taking $$$ away from a Download sale.

The media and the publishers like to point at the 500lb gorilla, just realize it's us monkeys they're going after.

[Greg2600]

The use of that picture is kind of unfair though. The corporation responsible for selling mass amounts of used games is a well-known chain with 4500 locations in the nation, yet they choose to show a picture of a mom and pop store that specializes in games that haven't been available "new" for over a decade.

They can't use a Gamestop photo without permission, which is why they used this one, because it was labeled Creative Commons.

[Jorpho]

Budget rereleases are almost always games that succeeded the first time out.

Yes, and those are the games that tend to get sequels and kick off extended franchises. But perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post.

Yet if they had been restricted to new copies, the pool of people that would've been able to fall in love with the original game would've been far less. It would've been restricted to those that bought the game new during the first few months and afterwards when the initial run disappeared from store shelfs, limited to those that bought a new copy online (And likely at inflated prices as time went on). And due to a limited supply, it's not out of the question that things would've stopped right there.

Yet the way it went down, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people that got to experience the game was several times the number of copies produced. The supply was essentially unlimited thanks to used software sales and exposed many more people to the franchise than the # of copies sold, making fans out of many of them and turning many of those into potential customers right out of the gate for a sequel if it ever finally makes its way out.

Matters of supply are going to be increasingly irrelevant as digital distribution continues to take hold.

[Leo_A]

Matters of supply are going to be increasingly irrelevant as digital distribution continues to take hold.

That doesn't really change that particular argument though. Allowing the same copy of a game to be played through by multiple people of course meant that there was an adequate supply of the game to allow people to experience it after the fact.

But it was the significant price reductions afforded by used software sales that pushed those people that had their interest piqued to purchase the game after seeking it out, spotting a used copy on the shelf after reading about it, etc.

Keep it at $50 and I suspect the sales after the launch window would've been a fraction of what they were. And that's just what it would've been kept at most likely if the way Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony have been handling digital distribution so far is any indication. Permanent price reductions are incredibly rare and there isn't a ton in the way of sales.

There aren't going to be hordes of people buying a old $60 game that's still $60 on a whim due to things like word of mouth, appearing in a list of overlooked gems or the best games for the platform, etc. But if they saw it for $10 or $20 like it typically would be where used game sales are concerned, you likely just increased the exposure of your game years after the initial release and quite possibly will have a new customer in line to buy a sequel at $60 at release. Such sales can change the fate of something like Beyond Good & Evil and turn it into a commerical success by increasing the interest enough to where sequels and rereleases are financially viable.

Yes, and those are the games that tend to get sequels and kick off extended franchises. But perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post.

Of course it's the games that are a sales success right out of the gate that tend to get sequels and established themselves as franchises.

I was never talking about such games. I was talking about how the used marketplace has been beneficial for new IP and how it can even change the equation for a game that was initially a commercial sales failure.

[megasdkirby]

I'm starting to hope they do eliminate used games from working on consoles. The sooner they implement this the sooner it will fail and things will go back to how things were while developers finally shut up about this. Of course some developers might not survive this failure, but that will just make room for new developers with actual innovation to have a chance at success.

I actually hope this happens too. But I want it to cause another video game crash.

[rbudrick]

Remember folks, buying used cars kills innovation.

And the next time you go to the flea market and buy that cool-looking old table, you are killing table innovation.

Definitely don't buy used food or drinks. Those kill you.

-Rob

[Jorpho]

Keep it at $50 and I suspect the sales after the launch window would've been a fraction of what they were. And that's just what it would've been kept at most likely if the way Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony have been handling digital distribution so far is any indication.

I'm assuming that if they ever get serious, they will follow the methods of Steam, which appear to have been considerably successful.

[Leo_A]

I'm assuming that if they ever get serious, they will follow the methods of Steam, which appear to have been considerably successful.

Hopefully

But there's sure been no sign of it so far.

[skaar]

Throw a 50-60% retail markup into the mix and suddenly the math gets a lot meaner to the pubs.

Add cost of goods, distribution, dev costs... digital downloads win every time. There is just more money in it and less middle men taking their taste.

Businesses built around being that layer (see: music labels, movie distributors, retailer, etc) are slowly fading or feeling the squeeze through online shopping and downloads.

It's only going to get worse as GS tries to claw back profits from pubs and they try to squeeze blood back.

[Bojay1997]

They can't use a Gamestop photo without permission, which is why they used this one, because it was labeled Creative Commons.

Actually, they probably could have. Kotaku is technically a news outlet, so as long as they have a photo that was released by the photographer, they don't necessarily need Gamestop's permission to show their building (which has no protection) and their trademarks (which may have some protection but would fall under a fair use exception for editorial use).

On the topic at hand, I sincerely hope there is some middle ground in which publishers and gamers can find a way to make things fair for everyone. Perhaps publishers could focus more on on-line pass sales for multiplayer or things that actually require continuing funding to maintain and which would be used more as successive buyers purchase the disc while providing multiple user licenses for each disc sold as new so the disc itself would still have value on the used market. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening and frankly, whether it's the next generation or the one after, everything is either going to be a direct digital download or require activation to one particular console. Gaming will still be vibrant as ever though as profit margins increase even if some used only buyers leave the marketplace.

[Rob2600]

http://kotaku.com/5907173/yet-anothe...ill-innovation
Thought you guys would like to see this. The pic is from the store!

That's my picture! It's on my Flickr account (goodrob13). All my photos are Creative Commons, so they get used on a lot of blogs, news sites, and Wikipedia.

[Press_Start]

Gaming will still be vibrant as ever though as profit margins increase even if some used only buyers leave the marketplace.

Except that $30 trade-in goes into buying a new $60 game and the credit for that goes into the next $60 game and the one after that......so on and so forth. So, if they get rid of used games, they get rid of trade-ins. Get rid of trade-ins and you're $60 game becomes a $60 ketchup packet.

There was a 2008 study on video game consumers showing that 26 million out of 75 million gamers sell/trade their games and thanks to the recession, that number has most likely grown over the last few years. So, how can the industry sustain itself with little to no concessions on their side on the way they usually do business while cutting off one-third to probably one-half of its market base and stating they'll make more money? It can't. In fact, it's dam near impossible. That's like running a trianthlon with one leg. Or Little Mac fighting Mike Tyson with one arm. Or taking in the World's Beer Binge competition with only one kidney. It's doable....only within a miracle.

What these companies haven't grasp is used games are just as integral to gaming culture as they are, like a lung. Cut off one and the other will have a harder time to hold itself together. Guarantee.