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Thread: Best TV for old- school gaming?

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    Strawberry (Level 2) mario2butts's Avatar
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    Default Best TV for old- school gaming?

    Hi everybody!
    I'm new to the forums, so be nice/patient por favor.

    Here's my issue: I've been on a quest for the *perfect* TV for all around gaming. I came to the conclusion that I had to get 2 sets, one for ED/HD gaming (480p and up), and one for 480i gaming, since HD sets (from my experience) do a mediocre job of displaying 480i content, especially from composite video sources like NES and Turboduo. I already have a small (aka affordable, I'm poor, sorry) LCD HDTV that looks killer with 480p Gamecube games (especially when turned on its side for Ikaruga) and DVDs (plus Xbox I'm sure once I get some component cables). I dream of getting a gigantic 1080p set once they come down in price (not anytime soon).

    So now I'm looking for the ideal "standard" TV for pretty much every console PS2 and older. I'm thinking 27 inch CRT, must have RF, composite, and S Video, (Component would be nice but not a necessity), excellent picture (well, duh) and as little overscan as possible

    Cheaper the better. And it would be nice if I could find it at a retail store to minimize shipping charges etc (and also so I can see before I buy)

    Ideas? Suggestions? What do you use currently?

    By the way, some of you may suggest going RGB, but I'm just not sure it's feasible/necessary (I live in the US). Is it really an improvement over S Video? Where can I get RGB cables? Is there such a thing as an affordable, mid sized RGB monitor? etc.

    Thank you all so much for reading!

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    Great Puma (Level 12) Sylentwulf's Avatar
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    Etc.... Etc.... Please see the other 30 posts asking about TV references where I've posted the link below:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

    That's where you need to ask.
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    Strawberry (Level 2) mario2butts's Avatar
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    I've visited AVS many times but there aren't too many old school gamers (everyone's just interested in the latest and greatest), so I thought here would be a better place for this topic. Thanks, though, and sorry If I've wasted your time...

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    drowning in medals Ed Oscuro's Avatar
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    I've just got a regular TV, 33 inches, with S-video on the back and front...that accessibility, plus affordability, is all I could ask for. Just a regular old TV. If you're looking for affordable, well, I suppose you could go through Anthony's "affordable RGB" (via VGA) post.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) Sylentwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mario2butts
    I've visited AVS many times but there aren't too many old school gamers (everyone's just interested in the latest and greatest), so I thought here would be a better place for this topic. Thanks, though, and sorry If I've wasted your time...
    No prob, didn't mean to sound like a jerk, it's just that the exact topic gets posted weekly
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    Dude, I'm I freaking audio/video nerd to the 10th degree.

    All you had to do was ask me, and I'll hook you up "Mo' dan proper".




    What you speak is the truth. For systems that display 480p or better, it's all about HDTV. I know. I have 3 different HDTV's in my house. If you have a GameCube and a XBOX, you definitely want to play those on a widescreen HDTV. If you have a PS2, you want to play the few 480p games on a widescreen HDTV too. (like Ratchet and Clank 3). If you have a Dreamcast and VGA box, you want to play that on a 4:3 HDTV if you happen to have one. But it also looks great on a widescreen TV too.


    But for pre 480p systems, which means everything prior to the Dreamcast, then it's all about RGB. It's not hard at all. It's just that for every system that you want to experience in "true" RGB, then you are gonna have to spend a little money for the Damn cables. But Matthew will make it very easy for you.

    The TV you should get is the Sony PVM-2530. There basically isn't a better 25 inch TV that money can buy. These things were actually used in freaking TV Studios and shit like that. They are fricking legendary. They can do NTSC like no other, and they also do excellent RGB. It has S-Video, Composite and RGB. So your NES can look amazing on it in composite. Your 3DO and CD-I can look amazing in S-Video, and any RGB console can look amazing in RGB. This means Master System, TG-16, Genesis, SNES, Neo-Geo, Sega CD, TurboDuo, Atari Jaguar, Sega 32X, Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation & N64. Also, you can use your PS1 RGB cable with your PS2. So that means you can play games like Killzone and Gradius V in RGB.


    This particular TV gives you the best of all worlds, when it comes to 480i based video game systems. I've never seen a S-Video signal look better, than I have on a Sony PVM monitor that has S-Video input. Same thing with composite.

    As for RGB, well, it depends. Most people play games on very small RGB monitors. A smaller monitor is always going to be clearer, because the pixels are closer together and it's hard to notice imperfections. But when you enlarge an image on a much larger TV, then it's much easier to see any imperfections. The bottom line is that the RGB signal on a Sony PVM monitor, no matter the size is freaking amazing.

    If you have any love for Bonk 1 on the TG-16, then you will shit your pants when you first see Bonk enter the Dinosaur's mouth in level 2. When he's swimming around in dude's stomach, you will just be totally amazed at the visual quality of that image.


    So here is the deal. A good quality Sony PVM 2530 will run you about $250 or less shipped. I got mine for $100. But I was able to drive to San Francisco and pick it up. Unfortunately, these puppies weight like 135 pounds. Remember, I said that these things were used for freaking production studios. These monitors used to cost like 3 grand new or more. For just a little 25 inch monitor. But it had a perfect image, and sometimes you need a perfect image in certain industries. And this is what these monitors were sold for. Alot of Sony PVM monitors are used in the Health Industry as various displays.

    It's only by accident, that now, many years later, you can get these things off Ebay or from some local distributor, and enjoy them for gaming purposes.


    You will need to pay anywhere from $100 to $300 to get one of these puppies in good cond. If you are patient, then constantly search Ebay for one of these that is close enough for you to drive. Or try to get one that has a "relatively" low shipping price. Even if you have to pay $275 for one of these, they are worth every little penny.


    Also, you need to get hooked with Matthew. Matthew knows the PVM very well. He's made cables for mine, and for other PVM's, and he might actually own a PVM himself. What Matthew you can do is make one cable that goes to your PVM on one end, and on the other end he has a custom plug, that he can make very short custom RGB cables attatch to. So you buy the one multi use cable that is alwasy plugged to the RGB slot on the PVM, and on the other end, you plug in the various short cables for your various systems.

    If you are unsure about RGB, and whether or not it's truly worth it, just get the mutli cable and a couple of cables for your favorite systems.

    If the TG-16 is one of your favorites, then you absolutely have to see that in RGB. It will totally amaze you to see such an old system work wonders in RGB. (the PC Engine came out in 1987 in Japan). The PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 could put 512 simultaneous colors on the screen. Most people forget that. Play a game like Legendary Axe in RGB, and you will quickly remember that the Turbo could do such things.

    If the Saturn is your favorite, then be prepared to be totally blown away. The Saturn is killer in RGB.


    Actually, every system that does RGB is totally amazing, except for two.

    1. Sega Master System
    2. Ninendo 64


    The Master System was very unimpresive to me in RGB. Of course, I've never had a Master System before, so I have nothing to compare it to. I've never seen any Master System games on a regular TV. Only on a RGB monitor. It's possible that if you've always played the Master System on a reg. TV and then you see it on a RGB monitor that you are blown away, but for me, I'm not very impressed. Just doesn't have enough colors to put on the screen to really take advantage in RGB. Makes me think the NES in RGB (if possible) wouldn't be that great anyways.


    Nintendo 64 has a crappy RGB signal. That's just a fact. You need to modify the N64 internally, just so that it will output a RGB signal (send it to Matthew). Plus it needs an amplification chip, to amplify the very weak RGB signal. Even then, once it's all done, you will be somewhat underwhelmed with the result. The problem is that the N64 is just a blurry damn system to begin with. Even RGB can't help the Nintendo Blurry 64. But games like Yoshi's Story and Mario Kart 64 and Doom 64 and stuff like that will definitely look better in RGB than any S-Video. So if you are a N64 freak, you will probably still get a big kick out of seeing those games in RGB. Just it won't be as huge an improvement as say it is on the Saturn or Playstation or Jaguar or Genesis or whatever.






    Anyways, just get yourself a Sony PVM 2530, and get some cables from Matthew. Send him your TG-16 and N64 for internal RGB mods, and then enjoy the hell out of it!!!

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    Cherry (Level 1)
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    go to best buy, find a nice 27in open box tv for cheap, and then use this coupon

    http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?i...&type=category

    it will get you 15% off that tv, so you can score a $350 tv for less than $300.
    http://users.ign.com/collection/s1xstr1ngsav1or
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    Though RGB is going to perform the best, for classic consoles, a few S-video and composite ports should fit you just fine. That's what I use in my second room.

    If you have the cash, you could always slurpge for the HD set, just make sure it can display in interlaced mode. There aren't that many that do.The ones that try and upgrade the signal really look like crap with lower-end cables.

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    Great Puma (Level 12) Sylentwulf's Avatar
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    And whatever you do, don't listen to anthony1. I forgot to put that in my original post.
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    Default RGB..

    Hello,
    I have an RGB question, seems like a good place to ask it without drudging up an old thread. I presume the RGB cables for the systems only transport a video signal? Is that right? I saw lik-sang has RGB connectors with sound, no odea what this matthew fellow is creating? How do I get sound with an RGB picture? Which systems do not require a mod for RGB as well?

    Thanks,
    Trebuken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylentwulf
    And whatever you do, don't listen to anthony1. I forgot to put that in my original post.
    Hey man, say what you will, but he's a certified, card carrying Video Nerd. He knows his shit.

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    Some RGB monitors do not have internal speakers (not 100% sure about all PVMs) so you will need to get RGB cables with and Audio left and right out to go to your stereo. Of course with PS2 this is not necessary because of the optical out. I ran 25 ft. audio L/R cords to my home theater speakers and it sounds excellent. Monstro Town Theme in Super Mario RPG is nuts with its low bass notes that rattle my ceiling.

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    If you have somebody make you a RGB cable, then you are going to get a cable that has a connector on one end that goes to the particular system, and a connector on the other end that goes to the monitor, and it should also include a red and white audio cable. The red and white RCA audio cables can be connected to the monitor if it has internal speakers, or to a stereo system or headphones or whatever.


    So yes, you should always get sound with your RGB cables.


    By the way, it's not a good idea at all to buy the Japanese RGB Scart cables that the sell at Lik Sang and places like that. Because ultimately, those cables will have to be modified just to work. Might as well buy custom RGB cables from somebody. It's actually cheaper.

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    ServBot (Level 11) slip81's Avatar
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    If you want to game in RGB for super cheap you could always get yourself and old 19" commodore monitor, they generally go for about $20-30 on ebay

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    Default PVM-2530

    Well I got myselfy a PVM-2530 today. Can already see a difference using the Composite inputs through a BNC connector. Now I could use some help deciding how to hook my systems up before I start looking into RGB cables and system mods. Questions???
    1. Which system(s)s (pre Dreamcast) do I want in RGB?
    2. Which system(s) might I want to use the S-video or Composite inputs for?
    3. Which systems do I want modded? (turbo or turbo-duo? nintendo 64?)
    4. Anyone ever see an RGN system selector that would be compatible? Or just stick with the dongle type of connections...
    5. Any ideas for tweaking or knowledge of a service menu on the PVM-2530?

    Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Trebuken

    Any audio suggestions other than simply getting the best stereo I can afford?? Anything more specific to retro-gaming audio as RGB is to video?

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    Default Re: PVM-2530

    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuken
    Well I got myselfy a PVM-2530 today. Can already see a difference using the Composite inputs through a BNC connector. Now I could use some help deciding how to hook my systems up before I start looking into RGB cables and system mods. Questions???
    1. Which system(s)s (pre Dreamcast) do I want in RGB?
    2. Which system(s) might I want to use the S-video or Composite inputs for?
    3. Which systems do I want modded? (turbo or turbo-duo? nintendo 64?)
    4. Anyone ever see an RGN system selector that would be compatible? Or just stick with the dongle type of connections...
    5. Any ideas for tweaking or knowledge of a service menu on the PVM-2530?

    Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Trebuken

    Any audio suggestions other than simply getting the best stereo I can afford?? Anything more specific to retro-gaming audio as RGB is to video?


    First off, congratulations on buying one of the best video monitors known to the Human Race. I happen to have a Sony PVM-2530 myself, and they are fantastic. One of the best monitors ever, for composite, S-Video and RGB.


    As for sound, the Sony PVM-2530 allows you to connect left and right speakers to it. It has good amplification, so you can hook some decent speakers up to it.

    I would highly suggest getting a pair of high quality bookshelf speakers. Like Energy or Monitor Audio or something like that. Check Ebay, try to get a pair of small bookshelf speakers of a high quality, and then hook them up to your PVM. You will be suprised how good the sound is.

    We are talking about retro systems, so you really don't need the full surround sound effect. High quality two channel audio is great for retro systems. But, if you want to go to town, then get a Onkyo SR-502 for dirt cheap, and 6 high quality speakers, and make sure that you always run it in Pro Logic IIx Music mode. Of course, that would take alot of extra cash to do that, so might as well just get two high quality bookshelf speakers and hook it up to the PVM directly.


    Now in regards to what is the best way to hook up various sytems, well, here is a breakdown of what you want to do.



    1. TurboGrafx-16 - If you have even the slightest interest in the TurboGrafx, then you absolutely must send this system to Matthew Ross or some other guy to have him mod it for RGB output. Matthew made me a special cable for my Sony PVM 2530, so he knows them well.

    The Turbo in RGB is a freaking dream. What most people don't realize, is that the Turbo could splash 512 simultaneous colors on the screen. Sure, alot of Turbo games don't really do that, but some of them do. When you see the second level of Bonk 1, when the little cave dude is swimming in the dinosaur's stomach, you will shit your pants.

    2. Atari Jaguar - If you are a fan of the Atari Jaguar, then a Jag RGB cable is a must. Might as well get a Jag RGB cable, because a Jag S-Video cable is super pricey. And the Jag in RGB is awesome. The Jag is a pretty lackluster system in my book, graphics not much better than a SNES, and sometimes worse. But the one thing the Jag could do is color. It could really put alot of color on the screen. As horrible a game as Trevor McFurr might be. See the game on a RGB monitor, and you might find yourself enjoying it!! And that is saying something!! Try a game like Cybermorph in RGB. With the clarity of RGB, you see every subtle shade of color in the alien landscapes. Sure, the planets that you are flying around are made up of large non textured mapped polygons in various shades of pastel colors, but it looks pretty damn remarkable in RGB. Playing this game in composite, and then playing the RGB version is like playing 2 different games.

    3. Super Nintendo - SNES, pound for pound is the all time champ. I don't think there is any system out there, that put the graphics and sound package together like the SNES, considering when the current technology when it was released. Games like Axelay and Castlevania 4 and Super Ghouls & Ghosts were meant to be experienced in the wonderment of RGB.

    4. Sega Saturn - The Saturn is a fine, fine system. Especially if you get all the good games from Japan. And if you are going to experience all that is Saturn.....Then a RGB cable and monitor is freaking mandatory. No self respecting gamer should every play a game like Battle Garrega without playing it in RGB. Or try a game like Shining Wisdom. Or the beauty of Panzer Dragoon. Games like Bug and Skeleton Warriors demand RGB display.

    5. Sony Playstation - If you have never experienced the Playstation in RGB, then you are in for a big treat. Try a game like Loaded or Assault Rigs or Abe's Oddysee. Try the orignal Crash Bandicoot. I remember when I first played the original Crash Bandicoot in RGB. I had no freaking idea that there was so much detail in those butterflies that are flying around in the early levels. It's a shame that 99.9 percent of gamers out there never got to see that level of detail.

    6. Sega Genesis/Sega CD/Sega 32X - All of these systems feature RGB display, and you should definitely take advantage of all of them. Just get a Model 2 Genesis, and pair it with the Model 2 Sega CD and a 32X, and all three systems can use the same RGB Cable. The one for the Genesis 2. Or get a Genesis 1 RGB cable and use it on your Master System as well. The Genny can only put 64 colors on the screen at once, but if you have a RGB cable for your Genny, you will think that statistic is dead wrong. Try Gunstar Heroes or Sparkster or Sonic 3 in RGB. Try Batman Returns or Popful Mail for the Sega CD. Try Kolibri and Knuckles Chaotix and Tempo for the 32X.

    7. Neo-Geo - If you are lucky enough to have a Neo Geo system, whether cart or CD, you should do yourself a favor and play it in RGB. The only difference between a Neo Geo at the arcades and one at home is the display. The Arcade version had a RGB monitor. You can do the same thing. If you are going to play Magician Lord or Baseball Stars 2 or Cyber Lip, you should do it in glorious RGB. By the way, I don't have a AES system, but it might actually work in RGB with a Genny 1 RGB cable. I think the video output cable is the same! Maybe I'm wrong.

    8. Playstation 2 - Kinda suprising to see a modern console on this list, but so many PS2 games aren't 480p or better. So many of them would look best on a RGB monitor. Like Gradius V or Jak & Daxter or Sly Cooper or Ico. These games come to life in RGB. Same thing with Killzone and San Andreas. Basicallly, any PS2 game that doesn't feature 480p support should be played in RGB. Also, there is a special bonus. You don't need to buy another cable for the PS2. Just use the PS1 cable!

    9. GameCube - Unfortunately, getting a GameCube RGB cable is damn expensive. The only way to make one is to hack the Nintendo Component cable. But if you do get a GameCube RGB cable, you will be treated to games like Resident Evil 0 in RGB. There are alot of very good Cube games that don't have 480p support. Also, I've heard that Game Boy Advance games in RGB are awesome as well. If you have the Game Boy Player hooked up to your Cube, and you use the RGB cable, you see the GBA games in RGB. I've never personally tried this, but I would like to.


    10. Nintendo 64 - Nintendo 64 has a pretty crappy RGB signal, by RGB standards. You don't get the wow factor that you do with other systems in RGB. But still, the best way to play a game like Yoshi's Story or Doom 64 or Mario Kart 64, is on a nice RGB monitor.


    11. Sega Master System - The oldest system to work in RGB is probably the least impressive. The master system can put such a few number of colors onscreen, that it doesn't really matter if you have RGB or not. I'm sure RGB will give you the best Master System picture, but the Master System can't really take advantage of RGB, with such a small pallete of colors to choose from, and so few on the screen simulatneously.



    So what about the NES? The 3DO? Philips CD-I? Dreamcast? XBOX?


    NES has composite output, so you want to hook the composite up to your Sony PVM. When I had a NES, that was the best video of a regular NES that I've ever seen. With the 3DO, unfortunately S-Video is the best you can get. This means that you absolutely need to hook your 3DO up to the S-Video input on your PVM. Best 3DO picture you will ever see! Same thing with Philips CD-I. Go with S-Video.


    As for Dreamcast and XBOX, both of these systems support progressive scan to the fullest. 90 percent of the Dreamcast lineup, and about 97 percent of the XBOX lineup support progressive scan. Which means hook these up to a HDTV. For your Dreamcast you need a VGA box and a VGA to component cable.





    class dismissed

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    Default Thanks for the awesome reply...

    First - Thanks for the awesome reply anthony1. I must warn you though, your answers lead me to some tougher questions .

    Played with the PVM-2530 for a couple hours today. After getting really irritated with what I thought was burn-in on the screen for awhile (turned out I just neede to hit the degauss button), I got to experimenting. I had a pair of ancient Memorex speakers that were about to go to Good-will that I plugged into the monitor. Was as impressed as you said I might be, though I was amazed at the speakers even more. Then I got stuck.

    i only want one monitor/TV in my gameroom, so I had to figure out a way to attach some my older systems into the PVM, systems that use RF connectors. I was lost for awhile here started googling and was lead to rf demodulators for $100; rather have two TV's then pay for this tiny gizmo. Luckily I remembered an old trick here, using a VCR. RF into VCR and composite out. So I plugged my extra N64 into the VCR and played a little Paper Mario, to get an idea of what kind of picture to expect.

    Now I can set this in my gameroom contentedly.

    So those tough questions?
    1. Think that VTR connection on the back of the PVM can be used for RF input? Think an adapter exists?
    2. There's a cmptr connector on the back. Manual says that this input is for CGA, but some random blurbs on the net have suggested to me that it can do better than that. Ever try anything here?
    3. One more question you could help me with...GameSx.com suggest I need the original model SNES for RGB output...can you confirm this?

    Well that's about the last tidbits I think I can ask about this PVM before I start buying cables...

    Thanks again,
    Trebuken

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    Well, an obvious answer here is
    WHY ARE YOU USING RF?!? ARE YOU MAD?!?
    That is what we are talking about here. Using something MILES better then RF. Thats why he was talking about all those adapters and the sort. Some system need modification, but thats all up there.

    Now, my initial responce to some posts in here.

    Anthony, you got me really intrested in a PVM-2530, so I'm going to keep my eye out from now on.
    Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Number 1 in the 'hood g!

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    I'll add a few comments:

    I have a custom GameCube R.G.B.cable - all games look outstanding, even RE4. I have been told it is better to make them out of the D-Terminal cable. It is a weird cable as it has two parts to plug into the GC; one for the visual and the other for sound and composite switching signal. GBA games look OK, they would look better in progressive RGB however.

    I also use my DC via its offical RGB cable as well, it has a very nice R.G.B. signal

    I just use my normal Grundig TV for now, but I did an MGG EQ/3 28" CRT industrial monitor made by Hantarex:

    http://www.hantarex.it/application.a...ottiprof&id=3-

    These are designed for all-day use and support RGB via SCART (so I do not need to hack my current cables) and D9, Y/C via 4-pin mini DIN and CVBS via BNC. Plus they TATE easily due to their cubic nature. They also give you full controll over the screen like with a computer monitor.

    These don't have any real sound support so I'll probably get a budget integrated amp; either NAD or Rotel paired with either Monitor Audio Bronze B2 or B&W DM 601S3 speakers

    RGB is the way to go

    Cheers

    Luke

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    Default Re: Thanks for the awesome reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuken

    So those tough questions?
    1. Think that VTR connection on the back of the PVM can be used for RF input? Think an adapter exists?
    2. There's a cmptr connector on the back. Manual says that this input is for CGA, but some random blurbs on the net have suggested to me that it can do better than that. Ever try anything here?
    3. One more question you could help me with...GameSx.com suggest I need the original model SNES for RGB output...can you confirm this?

    1. Here is what it says regarding the VTR connection: Connect to a VCR with an 8-pin TV connector. Again, these monitors were used in production studios in the late 80's and early 90's. So they probably had special VCR's that had this type of connector.

    2. CMPTR - this is actually where you put the custom RGB cables. It's a 25 pin, D-sub connector. Here is what a PVM manual says about it...... CMPTR (computer) connector (25-pin, D-sub) Connect to a microcomputer with digital or analog RGB outputs. For the pin assignment, refer to specifications.

    For our purposes, game systems output an analog RGB signal. So that is what we use, but I'm curious about the fact that it can also use digital RGB as well. Interesting.


    3. I know that the smaller version of the SNES had the RGB chip taken out of it as a cost cutting measure. Same thing with Genesis 3.





    Also, why the hell would you be playing your N64 via RF? Until you get your N64 modded for RGB, you might as well get a super cheapo GameCube S-Video cable at Wal-Mart. It will also work with a SNES and N64. At the bare minimum at least use S-Video. But really, you should get some RGB cables from Matthew as quick as you can, and you should send your TG-16 to either D-Lite or Matthew for the RGB mod. Might want to get a region mod as well while you are at it!

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