Where Sega messed up with Sonic

[MissingNo_1231]

May I ask what may be a heretical question?

What if Nintendo took over Sonic? Do you think Nintendo would be able to "save" Sonic (do a Sonic game "right")?

That's a fascinating idea. What if Rare were to take a crack at it?


Here's my 2 cents on the argument: Sonic for the longest time was one of those characters I liked and respected, but had never played many of his games. I used to watch the show a lot though. Good stuff.

My first game was actually Sonic Adventure 2: Battle on Gamecube, and I loved it.

I finally got my Genesis I bought from Goodwill working just this year, and I've been playing some of the oldschool ones. Great stuff, obviously.

In terms of the story, all I can say is that in terms of the show it was very convoluted, but the games seem to be even more so.

Again, I'd like to see a different company do a re-imagining of the franchise, in keeping with all that was good to begin with.

[AB Positive]

look, here's the problem with Sonic.

For those that defend the modern day games... GOOD FOR YOU! You found a way to work with the controls re-imagining a franchise which was literally built for "Speed on a 2D plane". Good show, you worked out the controls. Awesome.

I didn't. And I'm talking hours of frustration with SA 1 and 2 on Dreamcast. SA1 was still a good game but the controls never felt right. Why?

IT WAS A 3D GAME.

SONIC'S GENESIS GAMES WORK 2D. NOT 3D.

As for plot, storyline, multiple characters, etc... yeah it's kinda icky about the whole furry thing but really. Let's be frank here.

Knuckles Chaotix had no Sonic, multiple characters, and was awesome. Why?


DAMMIT IT WAS TWO DIMENSIONAL!!!!


the graphics don't have to be 2D but the GAMEPLAY does, and that's why Sonic continues to fail with the mainstream crowd. To those that defend the new games remember - you are WAY in the minority, and for good reason.


And, I should note, this is from a gal that is a hardcore Sega fan and still owns a CDX and every 2D sonic to date made by Sega.

So this is not sonic bashing. This is 3D bashing. Some things weren't meant to be 3D and Sonic is one of them. Deal.




word.

[Baloo]

I love the Sonic 2D games, save for Spinball and 3D Blast. 3D Blast is tolerable, so is Spinball. Don't particularly like them though. Never played Chaotix, but I want to.

I really liked Sonic Adventure as well, one of my first games for the Dreamcast. I liked everthing except for the parts with Big the Cat. Everything else was pretty decent. I haven't played anything after that though out of the 3D era.

[ProgrammingAce]

Was was the OP banned?

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132108

Openly supporting game piracy, being a dick, etc.

That's a bummer... the only reason i read this thread is because i saw the OP was banned and thought he had gone off on someone for insulting sonic. I want my money back.

[Loremaster]

I love the Sonic 2D games, save for Spinball and 3D Blast. 3D Blast is tolerable, so is Spinball. Don't particularly like them though. Never played Chaotix, but I want to.

I really liked Sonic Adventure as well, one of my first games for the Dreamcast. I liked everthing except for the parts with Big the Cat. Everything else was pretty decent. I haven't played anything after that though out of the 3D era.

I know what you mean. I hated the Big the Cat section of that game.

SA1 was loads of fun, and I didn't even mind Sonic Heroes all that much. The thing that annoyed me was in SA2's Knuckles/Rogue levels. It would take me around 40 minutes to find the bloody crystals, and that bloody song loops over and over and over and over....

Sonic and the Secret Rings is another one I didn't like. Lots of people liked it, but I have the problem of the game not recognizing my controller movements. Took me ages to get past the jumping level just because I wasn't shoving the controller PERFECTLY STRAIGHT FORWARD. That, and backing up is annoying.

Sonic, I think, could be done in 3D. However, the problem is that they keep trying to make it a platformer a la Mario in level design, when it really needs to be something else. Like I said, Secret Rings felt kinda like a step in the right direction, but it needs some adjusting.

If you really think about it, all Sonic levels consist of is a racetrack with obstacles. Maybe it needs to be thought of as more of a racing-adventure hybrid.

Heh, now I'm imagining Pitfall with Ferraris.

[Zap!]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd. Who replaces a mascot? Sega I guess.

[Dire 51]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd.

Amen to that. In fact, on another forum a while back someone asked what everyone's dream Sonic game was. This was my answer:

My dream Sonic game:

Alex's Revenge: The Death of Sonic the Hedgehog

Plot: Alex Kidd finally gets his revenge on Sonic for replacing him. That happens in the first stage. The rest of the game is an incredible 2D update of Alex Kidd in Miracle World, that includes nods to all of the best things from the AK games while leaving all the terrible ones out (namely the entirety of Lost Stars, High Tech World and that BMX game). It's praised by critics and gamers the world over and becomes a massive hit. Sonic is subsequently forgotten about, except by historians, fanboys and people that enjoyed the first couple of Genesis games & Sonic CD (the rest are stricken from the record).

Ultimately, this reinstates Alex Kidd as Sega's mascot, ushers in a new era for Sega and jumpstarts a new golden age of gaming.

...

A man can dream, can't he?

[RPG_Fanatic]

They completely lost me when they tried to go 3D.

Same here, When he went 3D on the Dreamcast.

[badinsults]

Sega went wrong with Sonic when they failed to release an exclusive Sonic game on the Saturn. Too many years passed between the Genesis and the Dreamcast, and Sonic lost relevance as a true system seller (NFL 2k outsold Sonic Adventure at the launch of the Dreamcast).

[Zap!]

Amen to that. In fact, on another forum a while back someone asked what everyone's dream Sonic game was. This was my answer:

My dream Sonic game:

Alex's Revenge: The Death of Sonic the Hedgehog

Plot: Alex Kidd finally gets his revenge on Sonic for replacing him. That happens in the first stage. The rest of the game is an incredible 2D update of Alex Kidd in Miracle World, that includes nods to all of the best things from the AK games while leaving all the terrible ones out (namely the entirety of Lost Stars, High Tech World and that BMX game). It's praised by critics and gamers the world over and becomes a massive hit. Sonic is subsequently forgotten about, except by historians, fanboys and people that enjoyed the first couple of Genesis games & Sonic CD (the rest are stricken from the record).

Ultimately, this reinstates Alex Kidd as Sega's mascot, ushers in a new era for Sega and jumpstarts a new golden age of gaming.

...

A man can dream, can't he?

I hear ya, I have Alex Kidd all over my video game site, and he's my avitar in my forums (in my sig). I'd buy that game in a second. Imagine it being a pack-in for a future Sega console? Ahh, paradise!

There is a homebrew of Alex Kidd planned called Alex Kidd Revival. Check it out!

[kedawa]

All 3D sonic games are horrible. The classic Sonic games were great because they had responsive controls, good level design, cool music, and they didn't waste my time with obnoxious cutscenes and voice acting.
Not all of the 2D sonics are good, either. The GBA games are mediocre, Sonic Rush is ugly as sin, and Knuckles Chaotix is just convoluted and weird.

[vivaeljason]

All 3D sonic games are horrible. The classic Sonic games were great because they had responsive controls, good level design, cool music, and they didn't waste my time with obnoxious cutscenes and voice acting.
Not all of the 2D sonics are good, either. The GBA games are mediocre, Sonic Rush is ugly as sin, and Knuckles Chaotix is just convoluted and weird.

Oh come on...While Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 lack the charm of the 2D Sonic titles from the Genesis, they're definitely not *horrible.* I enjoy both of those games.

While not having a game on the Saturn was a huge mistake, the big problem to me is when Sega stopped making hardware and Sonic got ported to other systems. I think that, more than anything, was the big problem, but I don't know if that's the fault of the hardware not handling the speed of Sonic or the developers just forgetting what makes Sonic games fun.

[kedawa]

Between the stupid overworld, dreadful cutscenes, and dumbed-down, on-rails action sequences, I have a hard time finding any enjoyment in SA.

[8-bitNesMan]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd. Who replaces a mascot? Sega I guess.

They did right. Alex Kidd was lame IMHO. Sonic was the perfect mascot to rival Mario in the system war of the early 90s.

[Baloo]

IMO, Sonic went to shit after Sonic Adventure 1. Everything before that I thought was pretty good. Sonic Spinball was probably the worst 2D Sonic game, and that's really not that bad. I love the 2D Sonics, even the Game Gear ones. I even love Sonic R, and have warmed up to Sonic 3D Blast (on the Saturn that is).

But after Sonic Adventure 1, everything went to shit. Sonic 2 Adventure is garbage, I can't stand that game.

I think when Sonic's whole look changed, and they started making you play as people who weren't Sonic and didn't play like Sonic is when the franchise started to go down the drain.

Also:

New Sonic-EXTREME look. Also new Eggman look.
New end-of-the-world plotlines that were really terrible and thick and confusing.
Horrible voice acting.
Parts of Sonic Adventure where there was no speed
Robotnik to Eggman.
New friends added during and after Sonic Adventure. We don't need Big, Silver, Shadow, Rogue, Cream, etc. that weren't needed.

Those are the signs of the beginning, of the end. Sonic Adventure's levels with Tails, Sonic, Amy, are all fun. Even E-102 isn't that bad. But Sonic Adventure 2 with Tails, and Knuckles, and Rouge, and Robotnik in that chicken walker aren't fun. And the Sonic levels are mediocre at best, as they fucked with the spindash and brought in that stupid somersault.

Also, I love Knuckles Chaotix, and that had a bunch of new friends. But the friends still had 'tude, and the gameplay was just awesome, so was the graphics. AND THE PLOTLINE DIDN'T MATTER

[Zap!]

They did right. Alex Kidd was lame IMHO. Sonic was the perfect mascot to rival Mario in the system war of the early 90s.

I hated Sonic back in the early 90's. Having a mascot with "attitude" was apparently the hip thing at the time. Bonk for Turbo Grafx I liked but could never get into Sonic. The Sega commercials in the 80's were serious, and in the 90's, Sega became cool and had to be sarcasticly funny. That's when they lost me.

[Arkhan]

To be honest growing up, I never paid attention to them as "mascots"

I just went "hey cool cartoons!", and went on playing games. Maybe since I was so young I didn't really care about marketing schemes.

I liked the DC sonic adventures. The fast-paced flying around the screen in spin dash stuff was still there, so i was set. Plus the levels looked cool, and the robot portion was pretty funny.

I dont understand the "on rails" complaint. All of the 2D ones are "on rails"

There's basically only one way through each level: To the right.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I hated Sonic back in the early 90's. Having a mascot with "attitude" was apparently the hip thing at the time. Bonk for Turbo Grafx I liked but could never get into Sonic. The Sega commercials in the 80's were serious, and in the 90's, Sega became cool and had to be sarcasticly funny. That's when they lost me.

I don't care how corny Sonic (as a character is or was). The early games were good. I mean if you think about it Mario is just as bad on the cornball scale, but Mario games (in general) have always been good and fun. So people overlook that.

Creating Sonic was probably the best business decision Sega ever made at the time. Alex Kidd wasn't going to cut it, they obviously knew this.

I agree with what most have said though. The secondary characters are out of control and pointless. Sonic and Tails should be the heroes. Knuckles should be the antihero. Robonik should be the bad guy.

Hopefully Project Needlemouse will revive Sonic. I won't hold my breath however.

In the end though what has killed Sonic is that the games since Sega went 3rd party have been terrible (in general). Story and secondary characters haven't helped this, but if the games were good most people would easily overlook these issues.

[Enigmus]

Introducing the "To The Point" Text Rezing Method:

To be honest growing up, I never paid attention to them as "mascots"

I just went "hey cool cartoons!", and went on playing games. Maybe since I was so young I didn't really care about marketing schemes.

I liked the DC sonic adventures. The fast-paced flying around the screen in spin dash stuff was still there, so i was set. Plus the levels looked cool, and the robot portion was pretty funny.

I dont understand the "on rails" complaint. All of the 2D ones are "on rails"

There's basically only one way through each level:

To the right.

I dare you to say that during ANYWHERE but the last zone of Sonic 3.

[Arkhan]

yeah... touche'!

that one level I think that had quicksand chasing you. It sucked