RetroN5: Hands on first look

[Satoshi_Matrix]

First, let me get this streight: I'm not defending Hyperkin's mistakes. All I'm doing here is pointing out the facts here.

All of this stuff is bad PR for them, but it's unfair to label them liars or put the blame for all this squarely on them.

First off, it's extremely likely the manufacturing delays are completely out of their control as that's handed by a third party in China.

Then that guy mentioned that the [preorder] demand has exceeded what they estimated. Since they want a unified global release (this is a good idea) they are delaying what could be a US only launch right now for a few weeks until they have the volume to do their worldwide launch. Yeah, this pisses off the Americans. but I think ultimately it makes more sense than doing a staggered release.

Production costs increased after the design was altered with that controller cradle and Power Base converter design support. The system is now larger than it was before, also they've talked about the OS being more complex with additional features. The price increase sucks, but whatever the retail price will be is what the price is; any prior price announced was a premature MSRP - which in case you forget, means manufacturer's suggested retail price. Hyperkin is not the manufacturer. The company in China (probably Shenzhen Qi Sheng Long Industralist) is, and it's probably them that is setting the increased price.

[stardust4ever]

Damn you Hyperkin and your steaming piles of lies. Tell us the truth for once. My Super Retro Trio can't get here fast enough. UPS seemes to be running at tortoise speed getting my package delivered.

[dgdgagdae]

The price increase sucks, but whatever the retail price will be is what the price is; any prior price announced was a premature MSRP - which in case you forget, means manufacturer's suggested retail price. Hyperkin is not the manufacturer. The company in China (probably Shenzhen Qi Sheng Long Industralist) is, and it's probably them that is setting the increased price.

So some guy on an assembly line in Mexico decides how much my next car costs? I don't think you know what MSRP really is, literal meaning of the words aside.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Damn you Hyperkin and your steaming piles of lies.

wow. you are completely oblivious, and after I just friggin explained the facts. you remind me of that guy who asked if the RetroDuo Portable plays SNES games.

So some guy on an assembly line in Mexico decides how much...

China, not Mexico. and not some guy. an increased MSRP would be the result of a board meeting upon further review of revisions set forth by Hyperkin to offset increased production costs. Hyperkin would have to agree to it of course, but the lionshare of it isn't their decision.

[Leo_A]

It's Hyperkin that decides upon the MSRP of this product. Obviously outside costs play a significant role in determining what their MSRP will be set at such as manufacturing expenses with the Chinese factory that's assembling these. But you made it sound as if their contract manufacturer is solely responsible for determining the MSRP of this product instead of Hyperkin.

And that just isn't so as his analogy about the factory workers on an auto assembly line being the ones that set the MSRP for an automobile was supposed to illustrate the fallacy with your statement. The factory making these has no direct say in what the MSRP of this product will be. What you're suggesting is akin to claiming that the general contractor for a developer is the individual that decides what prices the homes are going to be sold for...

The ball is solely in Hyperkin's court since it's their product.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

well, I should clarify what I'm saying.

Hyperkin and their manufacturer would have set the $99 price based on a certain profit margin. Then, when the design changed and production costs rose, the manufacturer told them they would have to raise the price to achieve their previous profit margin. In theory, Hyperkin could lower the profit margin, but have instead decided to roll with it, using the justification that the delays have allowed them to make a more feature-rich console than their original plans were for.

and you know what? It makes total sense. What incentive is there for Hyperkin to lower the profit margin and take a hit on every console sold at $99? Hyperkin is selling a machine that plays games that come from the secondary market. Once the system is sold, that's it for them, they make no other profit, except for I guess in additional wireless controllers, but those sales would be only a fraction of the sales of the actual units as many people will prefer to use original controllers instead.

As well as that, let's be honest here. Forget all this bad PR and assume that the RetroN5 launches in ideal conditions. The ultimate system sales will be a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket of the total gaming market out there. Retro gamers are a minority of the much larger number of modern gamers to begin with. Then factor in this thing is for retro gamers who want to play their retro games on an HDTV, and you've got a minority of a minority. Consider that even sales of the Ouya - a system with a much broader appeal and is sold in big box stores whereas the RetroN5 will not - even sales of the Ouya are poor.

The more you think about it, Hyperkin's choice is really the only logically one, as unfortunate as that sounds. Success or failure, compared to the big picture, it won't matter.

[Gameguy]

I thought most people aren't necessarily upset with the price increase for the console, but for increasing the price on consoles that have already been paid for.

Maybe I'm just missing the point of preordering anything if there's no real benefits for the consumer. True that they'll be getting an extra controller, but that's only because Stone Age Gamer negotiated that for their own customers. At least that's what I'm getting from what I've read here.

[Tanooki]

I think it's both groups. A clone system rolling over the $100 mark is distasteful to a good many people as in the end, it's still a knockoff, even if it has perks since it just a ROM dumping emulator. Then yes those who have the preorders being dishonored or are friends of those who are in that boat are rightfully pissed off.

The thing is in this case Hyperkin should have NEVER done a preorder for a cash amount let alone put one out there as that would have put no gas to the fire other than the damned delays which also would have been cured not throwing dates around ignorantly. People can bitch and moan, but they're not entitled to a date or price until it's really really in the box and in their hands ready to ship out to distributors. Furthermore, they brought this shit also on themselves with the $40 price increase putting a design mod to it for a lame tray and molding to fit a SMS power base converter which was entirely unnecessary, maybe they did make the OS more complex or it's an excuse and most will never know.

In the end they did it to themselves and with those informed online they'll cancel, buy one when the price drops or used ones hit the market, or just eat it anyway.

[stardust4ever]

wow. you are completely oblivious, and after I just friggin explained the facts. you remind me of that guy who asked if the RetroDuo Portable plays SNES games.

Stop playing me out to be a fool. I'm well aware of what consoles the Retron5 can and cannot play. You are essentially comparing me to the village idiot, something which I am not. My gaming knowledge may not be as vast as yours, and I wholly respect your blog, but please everyone is emtitled to an opinion, even you. Lay off the insults, 'kay?

[stardust4ever]

I think it's both groups. A clone system rolling over the $100 mark is distasteful to a good many people as in the end, it's still a knockoff, even if it has perks since it just a ROM dumping emulator. Then yes those who have the preorders being dishonored or are friends of those who are in that boat are rightfully pissed off.

I wouldn't be too quick to judge the Retron5 as a knockoff. Based on the features presented, Hyperkin really seem hell bent on releasing a quality product. No cheap clone chips like the Retron3, and it's loaded with powerful features that target directly core gamers, not just casuals. The casuals will buy the console and won't discover features like save states, cheats, etc, until they begin to explore the interface. The hardcore players will buy the console solely for the gameplay enhancements.

In every tech industry, it is well known that quality cost money, and consumers are aware of this rule. Hyperkin wanted to release a quality product compared to the junk they've peddled in the past, and for this I commend them. However, I believe the small company has bit off more than they can chew with the Retron5, and their marketing PR has been one fiasco after another. The price increase indicates and upgrade from "cheap junk" to enthusiast product.

Compare the Retron3 to a cheap Walmart boombox and the Retron5 to a hifi stereo system. Only difference here is the makers of hifi AV components generally do not also manufacture bottom-of-the-barrel radios, and visa versa. Yet this is what Hyperkin is doing. They are making the transition from low-grade clone hardware to a high tech fully featured retro gaming box, and enevitably they experienced growing pains as a result.

I hope they survive. People will buy their Retron5. I for one have not cancelled my preorder dispite the price hike, but how many causuals will see the Retron5 on the shelf next to a Super Retro Tri, and simply buy the Trio because it's half as expensive? The Trio is also solid and it appers not to have the sound issues many past clones have. Just saying, $140 is a tough pill for casuals to swallow. Hopefully enough hardcores will buy the system regardless due to the enhanced features to make Retron5 a success.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I think it's both groups. A clone system rolling over the $100 mark is distasteful to a good many people as in the end, it's still a knockoff, even if it has perks since it just a ROM dumping emulator.

I obviously am not very happy with the price change due the the fact that I took people's money a long time ago and now have to go back and ask for more. However when I first heard about this project I expected it to be in the $130 - $150 range and was honestly disappointed when I heard it was $99.99. Not because I want people to have to pay more, but because I thought at $100 it build quality would be poor and its profit margin would be terrible. I was correct on the latter. The profit margin at $99.99 for retailers was absolutely terrible and would have allowed for almost zero flexibility in the pricing. Some smaller retailers were even saying that would have to charge over MSRP for it to be worth their while to carry the product. Just to be clear, not just the MSRP was raised. The wholesale price was as well.

I am not happy with how Hyperkin handled most of this and if you saw some of my correspondence with them its very obvious. However most of what they did was more of a case of underestimating. I don't think anything Hyperkin has done regarding the RetroN5 was done to purposely screw anyone over. The unfortunate side effect is that their poor planning has lead to people feeling that way. I have had to deal with this myself on a smaller scale. When I decided to take pre-orders for the SD2SNES Deluxe Edition I thought since the price was so high that there would really be little interest. So I only put 35 pre-orders up. Well unfortunately when the pre-order was finally listed there were so many trying to place orders at the same time is crashed the site. All 35 pre-orders sold in less than 5 minutes, but with the site crashing many people who probably go there before others didn't get to place their orders. We had angry people on our FaceBook page, some personally insulting me. I felt like a chump.

I am not defending all of Hyperkin's decisions, but at the original price point it would have really forced out many of the smaller retailers. I know some people think charging over $100 for a "clone" is crazy. I personally disagree. I have always said I felt there was a market for a higher-end clone assuming its build quality, feature set, and compatibility justified the price point. Obviously some of this still needs to be seen and that's just my opinion of course. Only time will tell.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

thank you for being another voice of reason. It's been lonely here by myself.

[BlastProcessing402]

I am not a teen. I was a senior in high school when Columbine happened. Terrible. I was like "what if it happened in my school and if it had been my classmates killed?" It was unheard of then, now it's every few months we hear news of people getting shot up in mass shootings.

That's a function of media hysteria and the 24hr news cycle than any actual epidemic. School shootings are actually down, you just hear about them a lot more.

[stardust4ever]

I obviously am not very happy with the price change due the the fact that I took people's money a long time ago and now have to go back and ask for more. However when I first heard about this project I expected it to be in the $130 - $150 range and was honestly disappointed when I heard it was $99.99. Not because I want people to have to pay more, but because I thought at $100 it build quality would be poor and its profit margin would be terrible. I was correct on the latter. The profit margin at $99.99 for retailers was absolutely terrible and would have allowed for almost zero flexibility in the pricing. Some smaller retailers were even saying that would have to charge over MSRP for it to be worth their while to carry the product. Just to be clear, not just the MSRP was raised. The wholesale price was as well.

I am not happy with how Hyperkin handled most of this and if you saw some of my correspondence with them its very obvious. However most of what they did was more of a case of underestimating. I don't think anything Hyperkin has done regarding the RetroN5 was done to purposely screw anyone over. The unfortunate side effect is that their poor planning has lead to people feeling that way. I have had to deal with this myself on a smaller scale. When I decided to take pre-orders for the SD2SNES Deluxe Edition I thought since the price was so high that there would really be little interest. So I only put 35 pre-orders up. Well unfortunately when the pre-order was finally listed there were so many trying to place orders at the same time is crashed the site. All 35 pre-orders sold in less than 5 minutes, but with the site crashing many people who probably go there before others didn't get to place their orders. We had angry people on our FaceBook page, some personally insulting me. I felt like a chump.

I am not defending all of Hyperkin's decisions, but at the original price point it would have really forced out many of the smaller retailers. I know some people think charging over $100 for a "clone" is crazy. I personally disagree. I have always said I felt there was a market for a higher-end clone assuming its build quality, feature set, and compatibility justified the price point. Obviously some of this still needs to be seen and that's just my opinion of course. Only time will tell.

Well sad!

[stardust4ever]

That's a function of media hysteria and the 24hr news cycle than any actual epidemic. School shootings are actually down, you just hear about them a lot more.

Obviously you haven't seen the statistics. Overall violent crime is down slightly, but mass shootings have actually had a dramatic increase over the past five or so years. All mass shootings will create a media circus whether the perp survives the aftermath or not. Mass shootings are far more common now than 15 years ago. A deranged FedEx employee just opened fire on 6 coworkers with a firearm last week as the most recent event.

[JSoup]

Obviously you haven't seen the statistics. Overall violent crime is down slightly, but mass shootings have actually had a dramatic increase over the past five or so years. All mass shootings will create a media circus whether the perp survives the aftermath or not. Mass shootings are far more common now than 15 years ago. A deranged FedEx employee just opened fire on 6 coworkers with a firearm last week as the most recent event.

I'm wondering when the other bubble will burst. For the life of me, I can't find it off hand, but there was a study posted a few years back on disciplinary statistics across American school districts that stumbled upon something that should seem obvious but apparently few had figured out: Massive school violence stops further violence at the same school dead for a period of time. Columbine High experienced a tad over a full decade of really damn low bullying instances (or at least reported ones, can't catch everyone) due to all the staff being on high alert to such things. Other campuses that have had shootings apparently show the same trend.

It's probably all sensationalist crap, but still pretty interesting.

[stardust4ever]

I'm wondering when the other bubble will burst. For the life of me, I can't find it off hand, but there was a study posted a few years back on disciplinary statistics across American school districts that stumbled upon something that should seem obvious but apparently few had figured out: Massive school violence stops further violence at the same school dead for a period of time. Columbine High experienced a tad over a full decade of really damn low bullying instances (or at least reported ones, can't catch everyone) due to all the staff being on high alert to such things. Other campuses that have had shootings apparently show the same trend.

It's probably all sensationalist crap, but still pretty interesting.

It was known that many of these people who "snapped" were long time victims of bullying. Bullying is no laughing matter. I was relentlessly bullied as a child, but I never completely snapped, instead bottling it up inside of me. My teenage years were hell because of that baggage. My parents finally shipped me off to boarding school for four years during high school, fearing for my own safety. After students, many of whom had bullied the individual who finally "snapped", opened their eyes in the wake of disaster and saw the devistation it had caused, it is no wonder how the incidence of bullying dramatically decreased in localities which were victims to mass attacks.

Modern day schools are now conducting anti-bullying campaigns, teaching students to stand up for their peers when they see bullying take place. Peer pressure is a powerful force. If enough students stand up and say, "Hey man, that's not cool," instead of turning a blind eye lest they become the next "target," the bully syndrome will be stopped in it's tracks. In the future, lower incidences of bullying may very well mean less students and other people lashing out against the system and the very people, "that drove me to do it".

[Tanooki]

*SNIP* (for space)

I totally get and understand your position quite well. Long ago and spottily since I've work in gaming both on the game end, and the media too. I know how screwed over the middleman like yourself gets. You're basically the publics bitch and bitchingpost for other peoples mistakes much like how people say 'fuck these gas prices' and drive off with a tank of gas because they blame the dude making 3 cents a gallon, not the oil company as they're the point of service. But as you said, it's impression. Regardless if they fouled up underestimating price, blew it up more with the design changes(tray/adapter space), or whatever else, they never addressed it in a positive and mature way and still have not. Instead each rep has a different price point, a different fuzzy date of arrival, dumping on emulators (when theirs is just that), sticking consumers and retailers holding the bag on the 'apparent' 40% price increase, and so on. Had they just clammed up, said no price, no date, and just teased it a little more as time went along closing to release and dropped the price bomb maybe a month or two prior to knowing they could ship stuff out as it was already here from China, they'd be looking like saints compared to now.

Personally I was super interested in it before the drama and price increase, but at this rate I'm taking a back seat on it until I see a lot more action from buyers and then I'll decide if the added $40 is worth my time, or wait for random amazon.com price fixing reductions or a used one on ebay/nintendoage/here. I think the tools it has within have a lot of merit, it's largely attractive to me with a 2 year old running around as I can't finish games with no passwords/saves anymore worth a damn and it would be nice not to dump around with ROMs (as I have this already on my nexus7 with a moga pro.) I'm sorry how you got blasted over this and the SD2SNES, as I also thought at the time (and still kind of do) that the price on that thing is insane compared to the everdrive and power pak, but I get it does handle more and will do more as they roll out firmware upgrades.



Stardust, preaching old news to the choir as I know the feature set. Me calling it a knockoff is due to it being an emulator, likely pulled from an existing source per machine (fceux, snes9xex, kega fusion, etc perhaps?) I know from personally watching it the Retron3 is a hot turd, and instills no confidence in their NES line of product at all. That's why the SupaBoy stunned me how well that thing (v2 that is) actually works so much I bought it. I think the $140 isn't just a for casuals hard pill to chomp down on, but also those on a thinner budget too. I sell my collection bits I've lost interest in to get new stuff, and the few things I still rarely can find to flip as well with games/vintage toys, but for me to have $140+tax lying around isn't that easy, trickier than $100 which I had been holding initially from both Christmas and B'day(march) money and then after all the garbage I used it.


Why is this devolving into a school violence bullying thread? I'm all for it, but that needs to be in the general board.

[stardust4ever]

Stardust, preaching old news to the choir as I know the feature set. Me calling it a knockoff is due to it being an emulator, likely pulled from an existing source per machine (fceux, snes9xex, kega fusion, etc perhaps?) I know from personally watching it the Retron3 is a hot turd, and instills no confidence in their NES line of product at all. That's why the SupaBoy stunned me how well that thing (v2 that is) actually works so much I bought it. I think the $140 isn't just a for casuals hard pill to chomp down on, but also those on a thinner budget too. I sell my collection bits I've lost interest in to get new stuff, and the few things I still rarely can find to flip as well with games/vintage toys, but for me to have $140+tax lying around isn't that easy, trickier than $100 which I had been holding initially from both Christmas and B'day(march) money and then after all the garbage I used it.

Yeah the price increase is a pain, but seeing the advanced feature set Hyperkin is stuffing it with, it seems like a quality product provided it doesn't crash and burn or have other glaring flaws. The Retrobit Trio also seems to be using much higher quality SOACs than usual, with less audio and other issues. If you just want a quality clone without all the pizzaz the Retron5 sports, but not Chinese junk like the Retron3, the Trio may be a good shot. I plan on getting both.

Why is this devolving into a school violence bullying thread? I'm all for it, but that needs to be in the general board.

Topics tend to wander when you've got dozens of watchers on a thread and there's no new information to discuss. A certain user with a Pacman Avatar brought up Columbine as a reason for the decline of lightguns, after which the topic delved into mass shootings, bullying, etc. Even had Satoshi Matrix, whom I have great respect for, strike down a couple of my on-topic posts as uninformed and senseless resulting in some much unneeded back and forth banter. Whatever, no need to lick old wounds. Having adult ADHD, it requires a lot of restraint not to reply to off-topic rants. Jsoup replied to a previous post on the subject a page or so back with and I responded.

[Tanooki]

I wasn't exactly looking for a play by play to that question as much as trying to drive it back on topic.

The supposed 'best' clone out there I hear some say for SNES on a chip tech would be the Poke Fami DX latest revision of it. I have no real idea why, but I'm not sure I've found a video covering that one. I found one, but it pissed and moaned how stuff even the supaboy can run were sketchy.