Master System better than the Nes & 7800

[Greg2600]

I think you are confusing him with Rob2600.
Yes he probably did, that's my long time friend Rob, who does like his Nintendo, though he's most often defending the N64, which shouldn't need it. The N64 was better than the PS1 in all regards except FMV!!!


On the topic of the SMS controller, I actually like it. I wish it had a pause button, and that is my only gripe. Games that were designed for the SMS can benefit in gameplay from the SMS gamepad or the Control Stick even over a Genesis pad. I have experienced significantly enhanced controls in Kenseiden, The Ninja, Alien Syndrome and others using the SMS game pad.I like the SMS controller fine, my issue was with it's durability. There's a reason they are not easy to come by, because they broke a lot.


My only gripe with the above is the implicit inclusion of NES games past 1989 compared to SMS games. You don't list the sequels and later gen titles, but the "on and on" comment implies that you would. It is "retroconing" the NES library to look at its entire library and compare it to any one "8-bit" console.

Now, as to whether one "classic" NES title was topped by a Master System game I have no concern. Metroid and Zillion are both great games, as are Zelda and Golvellius, SM3 and the Alex Kidd games, Castlevania and Kenseiden.

No NES game has a Master System "clone" or straight port. That is actually something I really enjoy about this generation. No NES game has an obvious replacement for the SMS's strongest titles either.

Even more important to me is the experimental stuff. Punch out, the Sega Scope games, the wide variety of Role Playing game types. Both systems excelled at experimentation and selling X many units just wasn't the main focus.I purposely didn't include any post-1989 games for the NES for two reasons. One was what you said, and the other was that any game from that point on was clearly overshadowed by the Genesis and just a retread. SMB3 came out in 1990 but it was released much earlier in Japan. I also agree on the value of both systems, and their uniqueness. Frankly I think the Master System was so powerful, and that because they were able to port so many good games to the early Genesis, it has been viewed as an 8-bit Genesis with little unique value.


Trouble with US people is that they never got to play the excellent range of European-only releases on SMS, there are 100s if not many more, those releases beat any NES games by miles, pure quality (Of course one guy obviously will hark on about the BTTF games).
On the other hand, many people in Europe never played all the games on NES, because Europe didn't even get half the NES releases, but I heard that was not a great loss.
For once. with the SMS Europeans got the better deal regarding game releases, just like the Amiga computer.
I'll grant you that, yes. Unfortunately many of us Yanks were baptized with the NES, and impartiality is going to be tough. We know the NES games so well, that it's difficult to compare them in an unbiased way. Still, for most of the two libraries, I think they average out. There's just no way I think to discount the lore and aura if you will of many of those classic NES titles.

[sheath]

I like the SMS controller fine, my issue was with it's durability. There's a reason they are not easy to come by, because they broke a lot.

That's the first time I heard that. I went through plenty Sega brand Genesis pads and joysticks, but never had an SMS controller break. Also, three years in retail, I got the SMS pads traded in periodically and they were never broken. Is it possible the product quality varied by region in this case?

Somebody mentioned cords coming out of the sides instead of the top of the pads. I vaguely remember seeing this once or twice, but I though they were the second gamepad in certain SMS Console box sets.


I purposely didn't include any post-1989 games for the NES for two reasons. One was what you said, and the other was that any game from that point on was clearly overshadowed by the Genesis and just a retread. SMB3 came out in 1990 but it was released much earlier in Japan. I also agree on the value of both systems, and their uniqueness. Frankly I think the Master System was so powerful, and that because they were able to port so many good games to the early Genesis, it has been viewed as an 8-bit Genesis with little unique value.

Boy the flack gmsnpr and I got over at Gamespot for pointing this out. They made him "nutjob of the week" for pointing this out.

I completely agree that the NES was just far too dominant in the US for Americans to think rationally about it. It's like trying to tell most of us Football isn't fun to watch, a waste of time. Facts are facts though, and from 1986-1989 the SMS and NES libraries were comparable to say the least even in the US.

[tom]

I think you are confusing him with Rob2600.

Nope Spiffyone was replying to Greg2600, pay attention here, guys,
but if he's the 'mr-Nintendo-can-do-no-wrong guy', maybe he's not him so I grant him that.


Greg2600: The N64 was better than the PS1 in all regards except FMV!!!
Except for N64s fuzzy graphics.

[Greg2600]

Yes the pads were manufactured with several configurations for where the wires came out, for what reason God only knows. One assumption might be that NES controllers, and consoles, were frequently battered by frustrated players. I can say first hand I am amazed by console/controllers still work now, as I frequently went ape shit on them. NES definitely had the most frustrating games ever conceived. And perhaps bashing a SMS pad broke them? I doubt they failed out of the blue. That's what I've been told, they are hard to find the pads, because they broke.

As for the NES bias, I will admit for me it's there, and it's not going to change. I had too much fun with many of those NES games.

[Rickstilwell1]

I would not advise anybody allow emulation to be their "authoritative" experience of a game or game console. There is no substitute for the real thing. Emulation introduces graphical artifacts and timing changes to these games. I will only play a game in emulation to see what it is like.

On the topic of the SMS controller, I actually like it. I wish it had a pause button, and that is my only gripe. Games that were designed for the SMS can benefit in gameplay from the SMS gamepad or the Control Stick even over a Genesis pad. I have experienced significantly enhanced controls in Kenseiden, The Ninja, Alien Syndrome and others using the SMS game pad.

I think, much like other Sega game pads, especially the Dreamcast pads, the SMS game pad's digital pad's sensitivity with the angles throws some people. Some games were actually designed to use this, others not so much.

Yeah but the thing is that playing NES and SMS games on an emulator with the same controller puts them at a more equal level playing field. Where the different controller is no longer a bias to whether or not someone likes a system. If you have not grown up with many games for either system, it is a way you can tell the difference between games you like and don't like easily.

After trying out all the games and coming up with a list for each, you can see which system has more games you liked, hardware aside.

The NES has an unfair advantage of having more games total due to the Japanese Famicom exclusives though. But more games usually equals more bad games. Not always though. My opinion is that NES and SMS cater to different types of gamers and that's why opinions are so split. Also, some people like different art styles better. Myself I like games that are easier to beat without cheating.

[sheath]

I see your point, and I agree to the extent that every individual gamer actually used the same controls for both versions. With emulation we have players using keyboards, sometimes even on laptops, and a wide variety of other controller types.

Then there are the differences caused by different emulators for each system, sometimes even by emulator version. How accurate are each of these emulators, can it even be agreed on? What about folks playing on the Dreamcast or Xbox (should be a minority), is their experience representative of the best emulation has to offer?

I do agree that emulation can be used to come up with a list, but no more so than reviews can do the same. I personally use emulation only when I have no access to a very expensive title, or if I want to see how a particular effect was done.

[tomaitheous]

Trouble with US people is that they never got to play the excellent range of European-only releases on SMS, there are 100s if not many more, those releases beat any NES games by miles, pure quality (Of course one guy obviously will hark on about the BTTF games).
On the other hand, many people in Europe never played all the games on NES, because Europe didn't even get half the NES releases, but I heard that was not a great loss.
For once. with the SMS Europeans got the better deal regarding game releases, just like the Amiga computer.

Actually, the trouble is that some people actually think that most EU games in general are good. But they just don't know any better :ass: None of the EU stufff on SMS is 'miles' better than much better Japanese developed NES games. That's just crazy talk. A lot of EU stuff from that era is shallow or generic or just somehow queer. Although to be honest, US/NA just really sucked in comparison to both of them in that era (for consoles. PC games back then were lame back then in comparison to consoles. But you probably don't think so if you're a PC gamer).

Funny, 'cause that's changed now. US/NA and EU/UK softs are tops, stuff coming from Japan is lack luster for the most part nowadays (redundant / rehash / average 3D graphics etc).

[Gameguy]

Somebody mentioned cords coming out of the sides instead of the top of the pads. I vaguely remember seeing this once or twice, but I though they were the second gamepad in certain SMS Console box sets.
I have controllers with the cords coming from the sides, they were the first version of the controllers that came with the original system with the Snail Maze game built in. They're awkward to hold, and I had trouble with the D-pad while playing Rampage as it was difficult to climb up the buildings. I seemed to keep walking past them even while pressing up, I didn't have that much trouble with the NES controllers. Double Dragon was harder to play as well, I know the SMS version is different compared to the NES one but I gave up with it as the D-pad was too terrible. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it earlier in the thread, I just don't want to search for where I said it.

The controllers are fine as long as you don't have to be precise with timing, an RPG like Phantasy Star is certainly playable with the controllers. A beat-em-up like Double Dragon is more difficult when you need to pull off specific moves quickly. That said I still like the SMS library and hardware more than the N64.

[old_skoolin_jim]

Phantasy Star (best 8 bit RPG)


I thought this myself for a long time, but after recently playing through Dragon Warrior 4 on the NES, I have to change my mind. It blows my mind how much variety and depth Enix crammed into an 8-bit RPG.

Back to the topic though... I grew up with NES, and got an SMS in 1995 for $10 from K-B Toy Works. I was thrilled at all the games I could buy from my local video store (4 for $10 was totally allowance-friendly!), and was delighted with most of them (even ALF). I still have all 20-some-odd SMS games (save for Buster Douglas... sold that 2 years ago); but my NES has and always will get FAR more playtime. It's really a matter of depth, I think.
Fave SMS games (that I owned): Phantasy Star, Penguin Land, Alex Kidd in Miracle World, Golvellius, Ys, R-Type, Time Soldiers, Zillion... all good stuff!

[sheath]

I have controllers with the cords coming from the sides, they were the first version of the controllers that came with the original system with the Snail Maze game built in. They're awkward to hold, and I had trouble with the D-pad while playing Rampage as it was difficult to climb up the buildings. I seemed to keep walking past them even while pressing up, I didn't have that much trouble with the NES controllers. Double Dragon was harder to play as well, I know the SMS version is different compared to the NES one but I gave up with it as the D-pad was too terrible. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it earlier in the thread, I just don't want to search for where I said it.

I bought the same console back in 1988, mine came with the Light Phaser, and at least one control pad (probably two I can't remember). I also bought the Control Stick with it.

I would say that I would not like a pad that size with the wire coming out of the side either.

Rampage is one of my favorite games, and I only have trouble with climbing buildings when I haven't played it for a while. It is very precise.

Double Dragon is extremely different from the NES game. The last time I played it I had to remember that the long range punches and kicks don't work in close. I had to switch to elbows and other in fighting tactics once an opponent was standing on my toes. It should be a "duh factor" but it is inherited from the Arcade game and not carried over to the NES version.



The controllers are fine as long as you don't have to be precise with timing, an RPG like Phantasy Star is certainly playable with the controllers. A beat-em-up like Double Dragon is more difficult when you need to pull off specific moves quickly. That said I still like the SMS library and hardware more than the N64.

Quite the opposite. The SMS D-PAD allowed for more precision and also required more from the player. RPGs and free roaming games show this too, especially Golvellius and Golden Axe Warrior.

The only trouble I have ever had with the SMS D-PAD was with games that had UP as jump. Then I would accidentally press left or right too far in the up direction and the character would jump.

[spiffyone]

However, with regards to 8-bit gaming, sorry, the NES was the best. I've played them all, and the NES has the best games for many genres. Find me anything on the 7800/SMS that tops Metroid, Punch out, Zelda, SMB3 (or the first one or heck Dr. Mario), Castlevania, Mega Man, Tecmo Bowl, Baseball Stars, Life Force, TMNT 2....I could go on for awhile. Look, regardless of why the NES got the best games, and I agree the practices weren't fair, it did.

Quality is subjective, though, isn't it?

I agree that those are quality games, and at least a few of them are among my favorites of that or any gen (all the Nintendo titles you listed, Castevania, Mega Man, Life Force, etc.), but I can list SMS games that are among my favorites that gen too and some that I enjoyed more than similar games on NES.

But I won't. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to make this post long, and, hell, I owned both BitD and still own both, so I got the best of both worlds.


Upgrades done to classic systems now, while they often may be really cool, do not count.

*sighs

What I wrote seems to have gone over your head a bit.

Again, 7800 XM does not do anything more than what could have been added to cartridges themselves at the time. There were 7800 games from the original run in the '80s that had a POKEY chip on the cart (Commando and Ballblazer, iirc) and some from that time that had extra RAM on the carts as well. And there were NES games that had extra RAM, sound chips, mappers, etc. on carts (Castlevania III, for instance). 7800 XM just puts those components on a board so that there's no extra costs on the cartridges themselves.

This is not really like taking your classic car and fiddling around with it with tech from now. It's like taking your classic car and putting in components from that era, most of which the manufacturer themselves put in as extras in some models. XM, again, is focused on adding extra RAM and POKEY, both of which could be, and were, added into carts themselves BitD.


The Master System games, and I've played them, just don't have the level of polish by the developers and gameplay of the good NES games. Bad games are just bad games. Almost all of the 7800 games that weren't simply updates to classic arcade titles are not good games.

Again, subjective. Others may agree or disagree with your opinions.

OPINIONS!

Everyone's got 'em.

[j_factor]

Actually, the trouble is that some people actually think that most EU games in general are good. But they just don't know any better :ass: None of the EU stufff on SMS is 'miles' better than much better Japanese developed NES games. That's just crazy talk. A lot of EU stuff from that era is shallow or generic or just somehow queer.

Many of the EU-only SMS releases aren't actually games that were developed in Europe. One of my favorite SMS games is Master of Darkness, which was only released in Europe, but developed in Japan. Although I do like some of the European platformers, but obviously you don't.

My main complaint, as it were, about the European SMS library is that there are way too many ports of games that were also on Genesis/MD. Who really wants to play Ecco the Dolphin or Desert Strike in 8-bit form?

[Emuaust]

Many of the EU-only SMS releases aren't actually games that were developed in Europe. One of my favorite SMS games is Master of Darkness, which was only released in Europe, but developed in Japan. Although I do like some of the European platformers, but obviously you don't.

My main complaint, as it were, about the European SMS library is that there are way too many ports of games that were also on Genesis/MD. Who really wants to play Ecco the Dolphin or Desert Strike in 8-bit form?

The thousands of people at the time that hadnt upgraded to the new platform yet!

The thing that annoys with me with this thread and others like it, is what Spiffy is trying to say, its all opinion based, saying X consoles is BY FAR THE BEST because I like the games on it it moronic, can you not see that is an opinion and one that is usually heavily nostalgia tainted?

Also N64 give you eye cancer, FACT.

[sheath]

Quality is subjective, though, isn't it?

Quality that refers to qualitative things is by definition only those things that can be objectively added up. Such as a parent or teacher trying to improve a child's behavior using a new method and calling it "good" based on the results. It is a misused term in gaming most of the time.

People tend to blurt out words like "good," "fun," "bad," "terrible," and "great" as though they can measure them in a game. These would be called qualifiers, or qualifications, which are always at least partially subjective. The only rational thing to do with words like these is tally up how many people attach them to a particular game in a poll.

Even then, if most of the sample group says a game is terrible, it doesn't make it so (except to most of that group).

-edit- Actually, according to Merriam-Webster, the term quality is now interchangeable with "good" and is a subjective term in common English.

[tomaitheous]

*sighs

What I wrote seems to have gone over your head a bit.

Again, 7800 XM does not do anything more than what could have been added to cartridges themselves at the time. There were 7800 games from the original run in the '80s that had a POKEY chip on the cart (Commando and Ballblazer, iirc) and some from that time that had extra RAM on the carts as well. And there were NES games that had extra RAM, sound chips, mappers, etc. on carts (Castlevania III, for instance). 7800 XM just puts those components on a board so that there's no extra costs on the cartridges themselves.

Oh... this discussion....



This is not really like taking your classic car and fiddling around with it with tech from now. It's like taking your classic car and putting in components from that era, most of which the manufacturer themselves put in as extras in some models. XM, again, is focused on adding extra RAM and POKEY, both of which could be, and were, added into carts themselves BitD.

Yeah, not quite. I looked over the XM specs. The amount of ram is very unrealistic for the 7800's time. 128k of ram for a console upgrade, in the mid to late 80's? Nah-uh. This isn't a home computer. This is a console. Consoles have a completely different price point/range than small home computers. The Pokey chip? I give it that since there was what, one or two games that actually did that? But the YM2151 is *completely* unrealistic and out of scope of the 7800. Not to mention both it AND Pokey on the same upgrade board? It's just absurd. I mean, that was Yamaha's high end FM chip. It even beats out the Genesis YM2612 with two more FM channels and a *real* digital channel ADDER (among some other options for channel operations). *Maybe* a single YM2203 and no pokey. But even that definitely seems completely out of character for Atari (just look at the complete history of atari computer and console audio hardware). But Atari fans don't care. It makes up for the draw backs of their beloved underdog system and allows it to surpass the competition (mainly NES). I'm not saying don't make the upgrade, make new games or patch old games, and enjoy the benefits. But I am saying don't sit there and pretend this is a realistic upgrade that would have came out back then. That's just bullshit.

[j_factor]

The thousands of people at the time that hadnt upgraded to the new platform yet!

Obviously that's why they were released at all, but I mean, who would care to play those now? Or even 13 years ago? They're not exactly something you'd get an SMS for. They're pretty much dead weight in the SMS library, IMO. With the possible exceptions of Shadow of the Beast and New Zealand Story.

[Emuaust]

While I understand where you are coming from and do agree with you, this logic could also be skewed towards the nes as well, why would you bother with Metroid or Castlevania when they have much superior and similar versions(sequels) on the SNES?

[sheath]

If we're talking about later gen SMS titles, we shouldn't forget Shadow Dancer. That was a seriously awesome Arcade adaptation for the SMS. I wish they would have used that engine and ROM size for the original Shinobi.

Nowhere near that quality is Ghouls N Ghosts, but it should be noted that it has item shops and seems to blend some concepts of Ghosts N Goblins and Super GnG.

Eswat on SMS is an Arcade adaptation as well, and since I like the Arcade game I own that version.

Golden Axe on SMS is chuggy but includes more faithful Arcade level designs than the Genesis version.

Paperboy can actually be completed versus the NES version (by reputation anyway).

That's just what I have in my collection that came out after the Genesis and isn't necessarily replaced by Genesis versions.

[megasdkirby]

If we're talking about later gen SMS titles, we shouldn't forget Shadow Dancer. That was a seriously awesome Arcade adaptation for the SMS. I wish they would have used that engine and ROM size for the original Shinobi.

The only issue I had with Shadow Dancer is that it was tediously slow and controls were somewhat sluggish. Besides that, I really enjoyed the game


Nowhere near that quality is Ghouls N Ghosts, but it should be noted that it has item shops and seems to blend some concepts of Ghosts N Goblins and Super GnG.

And it's easier! I prefer the SMS version because of this. It's much more forgiving while still presenting a good challenge. Though it too was a bit slow and sluggish, however.


Eswat on SMS is an Arcade adaptation as well, and since I like the Arcade game I own that version.

Many aspects were gone from the arcade version, but it was great nonetheless. However, the game can be completed in around 15 minutes, which makes it way too short.


Golden Axe on SMS is chuggy but includes more faithful Arcade level designs than the Genesis version.

This version I did not like, mainly because it was choppy like hell. And because of it's "choppyness" and sluggish controls, it's my least favorite version. Graphically, it impresses if left static, but when it moves, it causes me massive headaches.

[sheath]

I've always had the impression that there was a lot of generic graphics engine swapping going on in these later gen titles as well. Altered Beast and Golden Axe have the exact same choppiness. Ghouls N Ghosts, Strider and Eswat all feel like they are shoehorned into the SMS.

I really don't get it, with stuff like Shadow Dancer having fairly smooth animation, why do other games have such consistently low animation especially in sprite scrolling speed? I wouldn't be surprised if Sega had some sort of high level library for the SMS that allowed them to make quick ports with little effort.

[tomaitheous]

I've always had the impression that there was a lot of generic graphics engine swapping going on in these later gen titles as well. Altered Beast and Golden Axe have the exact same choppiness. Ghouls N Ghosts, Strider and Eswat all feel like they are shoehorned into the SMS.

I really don't get it, with stuff like Shadow Dancer having fairly smooth animation, why do other games have such consistently low animation especially in sprite scrolling speed? I wouldn't be surprised if Sega had some sort of high level library for the SMS that allowed them to make quick ports with little effort.

Golden Axe uses software sprites. It overlays the graphics using the cpu, then uploads to vram. That's part of the reason why it's choppy. The other reason is that they exploit tile alignment to help speed up the overlaying (and vram is pretty small on the SMS for that kind of stuff). If some other games appear to be similar in choppiness, then they probably are. Just run the game in an emulator and disable the sprite layer. You'll find out right away. The reason for this 'engine' is so they can show more moving objects per scanline alignment than they could using normal sprites (GA would easily be consumed in massive flicker otherwise).

[sheath]

That is interesting. I almost said that it seemed like a game using CPU grunt to display everything (like the 32X, or Sega CD ASIC games). Is anybody cataloging these kinds of facts?

[tomaitheous]

It's been talked about quite a bit over the years. On multiple forums including this one. But SMSpower forum probably has the most info (for all games using this engine).

Despite its choppiness, I think GA is pretty impressive for what it's doing. They really do get quite a bit of software sprites going on (yeah, it slowsdown a bit but this an 8bit system and not uncommon).

[sheath]

I agree, Golden Axe and Altered Beast are technically impressive even without knowing the software sprite info.

As to the discussion thing, dang. We really are holding back progress by limiting all of these discussions to forums. It would be easier for me to systematically reinvent the wheel than find all of these discussions and read them all.

Maybe we should get some of the, ahem, more energetic youngsters engaged in the process of citing everything. An annotated bibliography of forum topics would be a great start.

[Coptur]

The Master System is certainly underrated. I love that system, and hate to say it, but the NES pretty clearly beats it.

[old_skoolin_jim]

I'd also like to add in the SMS port of Ultima 4 is far more faithful than the NES version. Great music, too. Definitely goes toe-to-toe with PS for best RPG on the system.

[trench-a-licious]

I always thought the Master System was superior to the NES. There was something about the Master System that I loved. Yes, it was my first console, but it had all the arcade games that I really loved playing. I still have my trusty Master System which works unlike my pile of broken NES.

[Drixxel]

While I understand where you are coming from and do agree with you, this logic could also be skewed towards the nes as well, why would you bother with Metroid or Castlevania when they have much superior and similar versions(sequels) on the SNES?

I'd argue that this example doesn't really present the same situation. With the SMS, we're talking ports of games done first/better on Genesis, which in some cases would have been arcade ports to begin with, that were then reworked to fit the constraints of the SMS. On the other hand, a series like Metroid or Castlevania began with the NES and then evolved through new installments on next generation hardware. That's not to say there aren't multiplatform releases from the time that included a reworked NES port but there's a lot more "downsizing" going on in the SMS library than with the NES. Games like Zillion, Phantasy Star, or Alex Kidd In Miracle World, while dated like anything from the era, are still original SMS experiences and a lot more interesting to play today than SMS Ecco The Dolphin or any number of downsized ports that occupy a large chunk of the library.

[j_factor]

I'd argue that this example doesn't really present the same situation. With the SMS, we're talking ports of games done first/better on Genesis, which in some cases would have been arcade ports to begin with, that were then reworked to fit the constraints of the SMS. On the other hand, a series like Metroid or Castlevania began with the NES and then evolved through new installments on next generation hardware. That's not to say there aren't multiplatform releases from the time that included a reworked NES port but there's a lot more "downsizing" going on in the SMS library than with the NES. Games like Zillion, Phantasy Star, or Alex Kidd In Miracle World, while dated like anything from the era, are still original SMS experiences and a lot more interesting to play today than SMS Ecco The Dolphin or any number of downsized ports that occupy a large chunk of the library.

Thank you, this is what I was getting at. If you're a fan of Castlevania, you'll want to play it on NES too, because it's not the same game. You could argue against the first because of Castlevania Chronicles, but 2 and 3 remain unique. Likewise, Shinobi is still worth playing on SMS, because the original Shinobi was never ported to Genesis or anything else better than the SMS version (barring Amiga, which for most people just doesn't count). But there is really no reason to play the SMS version of something like Gain Ground; even if they did a pretty good job, there's just no reason to bother. An NES equivalent would be Road Blasters or Bonk's Adventure. But SMS seemed to rely more on that type of release than NES ever did.

[Emuaust]

But due to there 8-bitness a lot of sms ports are unique as well, they might be the "same game" but still fun to play through.

[spiffyone]

Oh... this discussion....

Yeah, not quite. I looked over the XM specs. The amount of ram is very unrealistic for the 7800's time. 128k of ram for a console upgrade, in the mid to late 80's? Nah-uh. This isn't a home computer. This is a console.

While I agree with you that 128k seems out of the realm of probability for Atari at the time (see my earlier post), the idea that "this is a console, not a computer" is rendered moot when you learn that the original plan for 7800 back when Warner Bros. owned Atari was for a keyboard upgrade, with RAM extension, to "upgrade" 7800 to a full fledged starter computer.

There was even a prototype of the keyboard made along with the accompanying cartridge that extended the 7800's RAM to be a more fully fleshed out computer.

Then Atari Inc. was split by Warners during the Crash, and the consumer division sold to Tramiel, who turned it to Atari Corp., and stopped most of the projects. More 7800 games under Warner would've had the Pokey chip in the cart, but Tramiel was cheaper. And that also meant no keyboard/computer expansion as originally planned.

So, in that light...XM's RAM isn't totally out of the realm of possibility, especially considering that in the mid '80s a Commodore 64 could be had for ~$200-250, and the computer keyboard add on for 7800 didn't have built in processors to add into cost. So 128k add on RAM for such a thing is somewhat within the realm of possibility. A keyboard controller with a 128k RAM cart would cost under $100, which is exactly how much the XM is going for.

That said, had it been 16k of RAM, I'd have been more comfortable with it being more "realistic" as that's how much "extra" game carts would have believably held. 64k of RAM if mimicking the computer keyboard add on. But 128k wasn't out of Warner owned Atari's realm, especially if they would've been trying to one up Commodore 64, which was beating their 400/800 line of computers.

The sound chip, however, I agree with you on. I don't like the idea of that FM chip as far as it being "true" retro.


But Atari fans don't care. It makes up for the draw backs of their beloved underdog system and allows it to surpass the competition (mainly NES). I'm not saying don't make the upgrade, make new games or patch old games, and enjoy the benefits. But I am saying don't sit there and pretend this is a realistic upgrade that would have came out back then. That's just bullshit.

Other than the FM sound chip and the amount of RAM (more realistic, IMHO, would've been at most 64k of RAM) XM is within the realm of possibility for Warner owned Atari. Especially considering the computer keyboard add on that was planned (and actually finished, but never sold).

But here's the thing about XM: no developer is forced to develop for XM. And of those that are using XM the vast majority of them are just making XM "enabled" games, not XM "exclusive" games.

The former run on stock hardware with just added routines to detect whether the High Score Cart battery back up and POKEY are there , in which case you can save your scores or get POKEY sound (the majority of devs aren't using the FM chip, actually, and I believe you can disable it and switch to POKEY and TIA sound).

A small handful of games are XM "exclusive" (meaning they use the extra RAM) but even of those the majority are not using anywhere near the full 128k, usually just using between 16-64k, which, as I stated, is fully within the realm of possibility for Atari.

So if a game is "XM enabled", don't write it off as "not the 'real' 7800" because that would be nonsense if all the dev is using out of XM is POKEY and a little bit of extra RAM that could've been on cart or on the planned computer keyboard expansion (it should be noted XM has an SIO port for a future keyboard peripheral)

[Kevincal]

i think the reason the master system didnt succeed in the usa against the nintendo was all down to marketing? i dont know but its my guess nintendo spent way more money than sega and i hate to say it but us americans seem more prone to brainwashing than most other countries, so we had it pumped in our brain how awesome the nes was and never heard much about the master system. the nes was great though, just sad most of us never had a master system. ive collected thousands of games and systems and still have never had a working master system... have roms though.

funny too, i remember in 1989 specifically telling my parents "you better not get an atari or sega, they suck compared to nintendo". and i dont know where i got this idea but i got it somewhere, brainwashed or something or i guess all the kids at school had nintendos and nobody had master system and atari was seen as old crap.

[Greg2600]

Kevin, Master System got into the US game a little late, and SEGA didn't have the budget to spend anywhere near what Nintendo was. SEGA admitted they focused more on Europe, after they saw the obstacle Nintendo had built up, until the Genesis came around. It was actually very smart by them. They didn't live or die on the SMS US sales, they just wanted a foothold, and to prove to retailers/distributors that they weren't going to screw them over like Atari. SEGA made a lot of good moves with the SMS and Genesis, they just torched their rep with a string of busts after those two.

[Rickstilwell1]

This all has me curious. Most SMS fans probably chose the Genesis the next generation and most NES fans probably chose the SNES. Is that true? In Europe do more people think Genesis is superior to SNES as well?

[sheath]

This all has me curious. Most SMS fans probably chose the Genesis the next generation and most NES fans probably chose the SNES. Is that true? In Europe do more people think Genesis is superior to SNES as well?

For me it fell to game type preferences, and the Genesis and TG16 offered the game types I wanted early. I did buy an NES between the SMS and Genesis though.

That's not trying to be dodgy at all. I think the system one owned first sort of programmed us to prefer the strongest genres that system presented.

[GroovyBee]

But here's the thing about XM: no developer is forced to develop for XM. And of those that are using XM the vast majority of them are just making XM "enabled" games, not XM "exclusive" games.

All my XM titles announced so far are XM exclusive. They won't work without it.

[Kevincal]

i actually went from NES to Genesis in 1991 / 92 because of Sonic and the Genesis was cheaper than SNES. Didn't get an SNES until 1996.

[Greg2600]

Most everyone with a new system had the NES, and most of them went to the Genesis. It seemed to me like most of the SNES kids were younger than me, and played an NES in the early 90's, and moved to SNES. As I've said many times, SEGA really flamed out towards the end of '94, due to the CD and 32X flops.

[Hawanja]

I used to agree with your sentiments, 8-bit dude. But my criteria for identifying classic games is how well they stand up over time. In my subjective opinion, the NES library has, for the most part, aged better than the SMS library. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great SMS games, and the games loooked better in screenshots and stills. But a lot of them look horrible in motion. If I remember, Double Dragon was pretty choppy and controlled poorly. In fact, almost anything after the first slew of SMS games look horrible in motion. Rastan looks particularly ugly these days.

I think the majority of SMS games were also pretty devoid of depth, which keeps them from being interesting today. (World Grand Prix is one of the driest games I can remember ever playing.) There are a few that really do hold up, but for me, nothing on the SMS touches the grandeur that is the Guardian Legend, Legacy of the Wizard, Metroid, Crystalis, Iron Tank, Kid Icarus, Solar Jetman, Maniac Mansion, Princess Tomato and the Salad Kingdom, Deja Vu...the list goes on. SMS only has a small handful of games of this caliber. Just my opinion.

I have to agree, the games overall were developed better on the NES. I would add Megaman, Castlevania, Gradius, Batman, Jackal, Blaster Master, Bionic Commando, Shatterhand, and the Zelda series.

As for Ninja Gaiden, it certainly looked better on the Sms, but the three NES games play far better imo.

[Brianvgplayer]

I disagree with the comments about having to play EU games to experience what makes the SMS great. While EU got more great titles, US still got more than Japan and many of the best games for it like Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap, Phantasy Star, Psycho Fox, Kenseiden, and Alex Kidd in Miracle World came to the US.

That said, NES got far more games and a wider variety of games, even counting EU SMS titles, especially counting JP Famicom games.

[kupomogli]

Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games. There are so many more NES games that are better than even the best SMS games. Europe may have got a lot of great exclusives we haven't received in the US, but that doesn't mean every game we haven't received is as good as as the best we have received.

[Brianvgplayer]

Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games. There are so many more NES games that are better than even the best SMS games.

I disagree a bit here too, though. SMS definitely has a few gems like Phantasy Star and Wonder Boy III that hold their own with the best NES games and the better titles on the system aren't below the quality of good games on other systems.

I disagree on Gain Ground as well. It has some unique levels exclusive to SMS and the bosses are unique as well. It's not as good as the Genesis version, but it still holds up well on its own.

[j_factor]

Honestly I haven't played the SMS version of Gain Ground in years and I just kind of threw it out there off-hand. It may be a bad example. Feel free to mentally replace Gain Ground with something else, say, Alien 3 or Streets of Rage or something. My point still stands.


Like I said. The best SMS games are only as good as the "good" NES games.

I don't know about that. I'll take Phantasy Star over any NES RPG.

[sheath]

I just started playing Streets of Rage on the actual Master System. This game came out after the Genesis version but has tons of merit all of its own. I suppose it is the same as the Game Gear version but I like things on the big screen.

The Music is a blend of SoR 1 and 2 tunes remixed for the SMS.
The Sprites hardly flicker at all (eat your heart out Double Dragon).
All of the moves are there, I just need to figure out how to pull a special.

It's only got two enemies on screen at once, but proves SoR 1 could have been done on the SNES. :onfire:

[kupomogli]

I don't know about that. I'll take Phantasy Star over any NES RPG.

Phantasy Star is an exception to what I said as it's better than most RPGs on the NES, but I'd take Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior 3 over it. I even like the original Final Fantasy more than most of the games in its own series.