It begins.... Video game grading

[Icarus Moonsight]

It's only been about a week and already some people are looking at this whole situation in the most wrong way possible. A quote from a commenter @ Kotaku;


Maybe I should dig up my sealed Combat for the Atari 2600. It has begun indeed. Better get in line now for your slabbed common as dirt and worth-less-than-the-$25-fee games! Whoopee!

[DefaultGen]

.....

[Icarus Moonsight]

In the context, yes, I'd say so. But, you know it's going to happen... a lot if not too much. Most expecting something they will never receive. I hope it all ends with that.

[Haoie]

Being non American, Ebay doesn't really affect me.

This doesn't happen on local auction sites, for the record.

[Vectorman0]

I believe Bronty-2 gave his support in getting this started, as far as the verification of sealed games. If I'm not mistaken he believed this was the inevitable and it's my assumption that if it was going to happen, he wanted to see it done right.

Bronty-2, if I'm mistaken, please correct me. I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the matter.



As far as my thoughts on the matter, I'm very disappointed to see this grading start, but I think this was going to happen sooner or later so I am trying to be at ease about it. I can only hope this fails miserably, as the last thing I want to see are good condition video games out of my reach because the prices have been inflated too high by profiteers.

[Dark_Sol]

I hope VGA will drown it their diarrhea. It will lead only to stupid overpricing of already overpriced games.

[smokehouse]

I really don't see why everyone is so upset about this...

So they're grading sealed games...big deal.

For the many that do not want to spend what most are asking on sealed games anyway...what's the big deal about the prices going even higher thanks to these clowns? I wouldn't pay $250 for a sealed game...nor would I pay $500 so I really couldn't care less.

[Dark_Sol]

I really don't see why everyone is so upset about this...

So they're grading sealed games...big deal.

For the many that do not want to spend what most are asking on sealed games anyway...what's the big deal about the prices going even higher thanks to these clowns? I wouldn't pay $250 for a sealed game...nor would I pay $500 so I really couldn't care less.
You won't pay 500$ for a sealed Chrono Trigger? REALLY????
lol

[suckerpunch5]

I want to know who is actually paying the big money for these. I bet it is a shill buyer right now, someone who is being paid by VGA to drive the prices up on these games so that everyone else will think "Oh wow, these slabbed games are worth xxx.xx dollars!" I would bet these first auctions are staged events meant to fool everyone into thinking this grading service is going to be some kind of gold rush.

Well, no thanks. Anyone who wastes their time on slabbed video games is an idiot, IMHO and I hope the whole thing is a spectacular failure. I WILL NOT be buying them.

[scooterb23]

You won't pay 500$ for a sealed Chrono Trigger? REALLY????
lol


I just wanted to throw an emphatic hell no at this comment.

I wouldn't spend $80 on it when it was new, no way would I spend several times that on it now.

Nearly $200 for Super Mario Bros. 3

/me shakes his head

The damn world is losing its mind.

[guitargary75]

I agree, the world is losing it's mind. Buy games to play, not to set on a shelf and go isn't it pretty. What in the hell is going on.

[GrandAmChandler]

I just wanted to throw an emphatic hell no at this comment.

I wouldn't spend $80 on it when it was new, no way would I spend several times that on it now.

Nearly $200 for Super Mario Bros. 3

/me shakes his head

The damn world is losing its mind.

And the Press claims we are in a recession! PISH POSH!

/me throws money at sealed games

[Cornelius]

I just wanted to throw an emphatic hell no at this comment.

I wouldn't spend $80 on it when it was new, no way would I spend several times that on it now.

Nearly $200 for Super Mario Bros. 3

/me shakes his head

The damn world is losing its mind.
I think the point was that given the opportunity to purchase the game for $500 only a fool would pass that up, given it could be sold for ~2 grand.

If there was a stipulation that I couldn't sell the game, then yeah, hell no!

[LuxKiller65]

So basically all those people do is putting games inside sealed sturdy plastic cases? What's the point? Why don't they grade themselves and jump of a cliff?

[smork]

So basically all those people do is putting games inside sealed sturdy plastic cases? What's the point? Why don't they grade themselves and jump of a cliff?

Oh cmon. They are doing more than that.

You get a number, too. A UNIQUE number, no less.

Who wouldn't pay $25 for a UNIQUE number?

[LuxKiller65]

HOLY...!!! Why didn't you tell me this before? I'd prostitute myself for a UNIK NUMBER. Phew, just think of the people there applying the sticker with their sexy hands... hot.

[TonyTheTiger]

You know, if I had the resources to flush down the toilet I'd show just how stupid this whole thing is by creating some phony organization that does the same thing but grades games to stupidly specific numbers.

This isn't quite a 9. It's an 8.74423. That means it's worth exactly 1.2 cents more than an 8.74422!

I hate grading. The idea of paying more for a graded "8" than you would for an ungraded mint condition product strikes me as the most ass backwards arbitrary collector's bait I've ever seen. It'd be like if Nintendo decided to start individually numbering every single one of it's games. Then people would be charging $200 for the "OMG #1 Super Mario Sunshine!" But so long as people keep buying into the idea that slapping random numbers and official seals onto things makes them more valuable I guess I'm in the minority with all the other rational people.

[LuxKiller65]

I'd pay a million for number 666.

Jokes apart, what can we say?

:?

Let's start grading toilet paper!

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I'd prostitute myself for a UNIK NUMBER.
These people grade eunuchs too? Great! I can finally learn the value of my collection!

[Bronty-2]

I believe Bronty-2 gave his support in getting this started, as far as the verification of sealed games. If I'm not mistaken he believed this was the inevitable and it's my assumption that if it was going to happen, he wanted to see it done right.

Bronty-2, if I'm mistaken, please correct me. I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the matter.





That's pretty much it. I would join in but I am too busy at work. If you want to read my thoughts on it check out the several VGA threads on nintendoage.com

[Cornelius]

These people grade eunuchs too? Great! I can finally learn the value of my collection!

Is is just original Unix they grade, or do they also do the derivatives? I've got a few gem mint flavors of BSD I'd like to get graded. And much more common, but I also have a boxed complete retail RedHat Linux.

[Jorpho]

Is is just original Unix they grade, or do they also do the derivatives? I've got a few gem mint flavors of BSD I'd like to get graded. And much more common, but I also have a boxed complete retail RedHat Linux.

Oddly enough, I bet there are people who collect the Linux Developer's Resource (http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Developers-Resource-6-CD-Set/dp/B000LCH712) sets with their distinctive cartoon artwork.

In fact, now you've made me curious as to whether pics of such a collection exist. (Go figure, "InfoMagic" doesn't even have a Wikipedia entry.)

[suppafly]

I think it is a very stupid idea.

But I also think that payuing for games in a virtual console, paying for micro downloads in games and paying to play online (xbox live) are also stupid ideas

Its just capitalism all around us!

[LuxKiller65]

Especially when you can find the original console and game for almost the same price (all right, not always). It looks and plays better too. But yeah, as you just said, everything that might make money is worth trying (in their opinion).

[rpepper9]

I don't see what all the Hub-Bub is about. If someone wants to be sure that a game is a genuine sealed game, why not offer a service that guarantees that it is a sealed game.

I assume that whoever is going the grading can tell the difference between factory sealed and a resealed. Just like Beckett or PSA can tell the differance between a real and a fake baseball or hockey card.

So to all the people who are getting all bent about sending re-seales to them to get them graded, just chill. If they say it is a factory seal, and want to give it a grade, then great! If someone wants to pay for the sealed game great, if you don't wanna pay the premium then fine - don't!

How many threads are there on DigitalPress discussing the authenticity of sealed games? So someone came up with a way to grade games so when they are on the secondary market you can be assured that they are genuine factory sealed games. I wish I had put the money into starting this up.

I think that everyone should set the keyboard aside, open the windows in your parrents basement where you live and let the sun shine in. Stop with all the negitavity! If you don't like it, don't do it! Move on.

[Bronty-2]

I think that everyone should set the keyboard aside, open the windows in your parrents basement where you live and let the sun shine in. Stop with all the negitavity! If you don't like it, don't do it! Move on.

^ post of the year. I like how the people that are the most bent are the ones least likely to actually buy sealed games anyways

[smokehouse]

I think the point was that given the opportunity to purchase the game for $500 only a fool would pass that up, given it could be sold for ~2 grand.

If there was a stipulation that I couldn't sell the game, then yeah, hell no!

Give me a break...while we're living in this fantasy world...why not say that I'd make a move if I could get a gold brick for $300...not happening...

I don't collect sealed games...if you do, then bust out the wallet or stop collecting. Sealed items cost money, get used to it. personally, it think it's fucking stupid to pay that much $$ for something in shrink wrap but to each their own. As to the grading issue, with all of the people looking to turn a quick buck by resealing games and charging out the ass for them and screwing people (you know, like the guys that get the shaft and come here bitching about it)...I think a grading scale is a good thing if you really want my opinion. The resellers are getting better and if you want to plop down hundreds to thousands of dollars based only on a picture your sent on the internet...suit yourself.

[Roufuss]

I don't see what all the Hub-Bub is about. If someone wants to be sure that a game is a genuine sealed game, why not offer a service that guarantees that it is a sealed game.

I assume that whoever is going the grading can tell the difference between factory sealed and a resealed. Just like Beckett or PSA can tell the differance between a real and a fake baseball or hockey card.

So to all the people who are getting all bent about sending re-seales to them to get them graded, just chill. If they say it is a factory seal, and want to give it a grade, then great! If someone wants to pay for the sealed game great, if you don't wanna pay the premium then fine - don't!

How many threads are there on DigitalPress discussing the authenticity of sealed games? So someone came up with a way to grade games so when they are on the secondary market you can be assured that they are genuine factory sealed games. I wish I had put the money into starting this up.

I think that everyone should set the keyboard aside, open the windows in your parrents basement where you live and let the sun shine in. Stop with all the negitavity! If you don't like it, don't do it! Move on.

It's a grand idea, until the one time they slip up and grade a reseal, and then their entire business is down the tubes, because who would take them seriously at that point?

I see people's points, that this will do nothing but drive the cost of some games up.. I assume they would start grading non sealed games too? I mean, I can imagine if people start grading Radiant Silvergun's, and suddenly an Ebay seller wants $400 for his because it got a 9.0 from the VGA.

What I'm worried about is these rating will do nothing but artifically boost prices even higher, where they are, imo, too damn high in the first place for a handful of games. Similar to how the CGC merely boosted the value of comics, while not really doing a lot for collectors themselves.

Imagine the only way to get decent money on your RS is to now slab it? I know I don't want to pay more money simply because it has plastic on it and some guys opinion of the quality.

If I somehow slipped up, and they are only grading sealed games, then awesome, but if they are grading all manners of games, I just see the prices going even further up. Because even if it's sealed games, for now, I can see it eventually being non sealed but still complete games.

[98PaceCar]

^ post of the year. I like how the people that are the most bent are the ones least likely to actually buy sealed games anyways

So I'm curious (only pointed at you since I know you are involved in this, at least in an advisory role). Currently this is only for sealed games, correct? Are there plans to do CIB or even loose? What systems does it currently cover or will they grade any sealed game?

If this is truly limited to sealed games, the impact to non-sealed collectors will be lessened, but there will be impact. Once the less scrupulous dealers and resellers decide that they can make real money on games, you can bet that the prices of everything will go up due to speculating on the market. That $5 loose NES game sitting at the local flea market will suddenly go up because they will assume that since it has a nice label, it would grade high and is worth more. Once there is something to compare to, the prices will go up, even if the comparison is in no way valid. The same thing happened when ebay gained enough popularity...

[Icarus Moonsight]

I don't see what all the Hub-Bub is about. If someone wants to be sure that a game is a genuine sealed game, why not offer a service that guarantees that it is a sealed game.

Because they can't! You can not completely verify the contents of a sealed package until it's opened. I honestly can not believe people are buying this crap. Shame on you people. Bad gamer! NO! *rolls up a newspaper and points it* Bad! :smash:

[boatofcar]

Because they can't! You can not completely verify the contents of a sealed package until it's opened. I honestly can not believe people are buying this crap. Shame on you people. Bad gamer! NO! *rolls up a newspaper and points it* Bad! :smash:

Seriously man, chill. Do you not think the technology exists to verify the contents of a sealed game?

For all the complainers: how many of you have actually bought sealed games on ebay? If you haven't, none of this actually applies to you, so why are you bitching?

[boatofcar]

I don't know if the idea will collapse or not. The reason it caught on in other collectable hobbies is always because of the subjective nature of describing condition.

I have no experience with comics, but have plenty in Star Wars. Truth is, it's tough to trust a seller's notion of the condition of their sealed figure (for example), because they have an inherent bias. In theory, the AFA eliminates that bias to help the buyer have an idea of exactly what they're getting. AFA 90 and above are harder to come by, and will command an appropriate price.

As this relates to video games (sealed only, as I do think that it is impossible to do this with open/CIB games), the VGA is banking on the same principle applying. However, as I mentioned before, the cost of grading/entombing the sealed game would only help to dissuade anyone from submitting a sealed game with a normal value of $50 or less (which by my count, is more than half of the library.) For example: You can buy several sealed games on ebay with great regularity for $20-$25. Is it possible that they may be in outstanding condition but not a 10/10? Certainly. Is it worth the additional $20+ dollars that would have to be rolled back into the selling cost to cover the VGA service? No. Not when the pictures you can see or request will dispell questions about condition in most cases. A 100% increase on a common title to cover that service cost would not make any sense to potential buyers. The value is less, and has probably remained so over the last decade. Paying $40 for a $20 game (not even including shipping) simply won't fly with any regularity. Reason being, the risk associated with buying a $20 sealed game and having it arrive in slightly less than the condition you desired doesn't cost anything. You can resell without losing money. On the other hand, paying extra for someone to confirm that it's in the exact grade you already think it is, is meaningless.

So, as I said in the other thread, this only makes sense if the normal value is high enough to cover the cost of the service without increasing the cost to potential buyers (ie. the extra $20 is trival on a $500 purchase), AND if the risk involved is great enough to require an elimination of subjectivity from the grading process.

Honestly though, if you're planning on spending $1400 (on let's say, a sealed Chubby Cherub), I'm fairly certain that you can get as many pictures as you'd like to confirm the condition. Having it graded independently would serve no real purpose at that point.

I don't know how this will turn out. There are so many retards out there who spend a ton of money on sealed games (not sure why, exactly) - but you've all seen them on ebay. We've already started to witness an increase in prices of CIB games in nice condition ($100 on Zelda, for example), so I have no doubt in my mind that this will only increase negatively on CIB collecting as the VGA begins to filter down through the hobby.

It's not evil, but it sure as hell is irritating and won't serve any purpose to the long term CIB collector, except make the hobby more expensive than it already is.

I find it less than ironic that two of the greater proponents (on this site) of this advent in collecting either have everything to gain, or no real reason to oppose it.

No offense to either of you, but Bronty, you have a huge, valuable, sealed collection - so this can only benefit you should you choose to take advantage; and Dangevin, you don't collect boxed games, let alone sealed ones, so you have nothing to gain or lose either way. If this succeeds, it doesn't affect you, and if it doesn't; same result.

Like I said, no offense to either of you, I certainly have nothing against either of you - it's just an observation.

All of this is just my opinion, but I've been around this hobby and another that was directly affected (negatively) by the advent of this type of grading service.

Oh, I'm not sure what to formally refer to the hobby as, but I can say that we should all describe ourselves as having ObNESsive Compulsive Disorder.

(link) (http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=21&catid=3&threadid=7164)

[TonyTheTiger]

Seriously man, chill. Do you not think the technology exists to verify the contents of a sealed game?

For all the complainers: how many of you have actually bought sealed games on ebay? If you haven't, none of this actually applies to you, so why are you bitching?

Mostly because there might be side effects beyond just a price jump in sealed games. See my earlier post. And also because I find the grading of any collectible and the resulting price jump to be arbitrary.

The principle behind grading is sound. It does remove the subjective nature of describing an item to a point. But in actual practice, I find it to have some very bizarre results. Namely, a graded item selling for more than an ungraded item in better condition. Also, the inevitable bias against ungraded items essentially forcing people to pay the grading fee to even get any respect on the market.

I think, though, it's kind of hard these days to really "trick" a buyer into paying top dollar for a less than spectacular product. Even the most casual Ebayer is cautious about "stock photos" and poor quality ones that could easily hide flaws.

And unlike with comics, where a random page in the middle of the book might be trashed while everything else looks great, a sealed video game can only have so many things wrong with it. If you see the front, back, and edges, you pretty much know what you're getting.

I think you said it yourself. That big time coin collectors can make a lucrative business out of buying a graded coin, resubmitting it, and hopefully getting a higher rating. If this is true, then doesn't that alone cast a shadow on the whole concept of grading? Obviously a coin's condition isn't going to improve over time so the only conclusion is that the initial submission resulted in a bad call. Maybe this isn't highly common (I don't know anything about the business) but if it does happen then that's just more ammo for my "arbitrary" argument.

It all comes down to the difference between "guideline" and "gospel." A grading system should be a guideline. But they always end up functioning as a gospel which ends up screwing things up more than anything.

[boatofcar]

I think, though, it's kind of hard these days to really "trick" a buyer into paying top dollar for a less than spectacular product. Even the most casual Ebayer is cautious about "stock photos" and poor quality ones that could easily hide flaws.

And unlike with comics, where a random page in the middle of the book might be trashed while everything else looks great, a sealed video game can only have so many things wrong with it. If you see the front, back, and edges, you pretty much know what you're getting.

I think you said it yourself. That big time coin collectors can make a lucrative business out of buying a graded coin, resubmitting it, and hopefully getting a higher rating. If this is true, then doesn't that alone cast a shadow on the whole concept of rating? Obviously a coin's condition isn't going to improve over time so the only conclusion is that the initial submission resulted in a bad call. Maybe this isn't highly common (I don't know anything about the business) but if it does happen then that's just more ammo for my "arbitrary" argument.

These are all good points. The analogy with resubmitting coins could certainly apply to video games, though I can't see it getting to that point for a while, because there's a lot of folks grading over at ANACS and I assume only a few grading video games now. Also, when you resubmit your game, you're throwing another $20 or whatever down the drain, and not many games are worth it monetarily to do that with, especially since the market hasn't dictated exactly how much more people are willing to pay for an 8 game than an 8.5 game.

[TonyTheTiger]

The difference between an 8 and an 8.5 itself might be arbitrary. How do these graders reach a conclusion? Do they put the thing to a microscope? If you need special equipment to tell the difference between an 8 and a 9 or a 9 and a 10 then that means two things:

1) Even most games at shipment aren't pristine.
2) To someone just looking at the thing, the grade means nothing.

Forget about resealing. You might start seeing people try to imitate the official grading.

[boatofcar]

1) Even most games at shipment aren't pristine.

I don't think anyone would argue that. That goes for every collectible, from coins to stamps to comics.


2) To someone just looking at the thing, the grade means nothing.
Other than the price between an 8 and a 9, yes, you're right. I don't imagine there's going to be a whole lot of difference upon casual inspection between an 8 or a 9, or even a 7 and an 8.



Forget about resealing. You might start seeing people try to imitate the official grading.

Which is why it's good AFA is behind this, who have safeguards in place to prevent people from altering the slab itself.

[rpepper9]

So what I am seeing is that people are worried about the fact that a re-seal could get by, and are even thinking of sending re-seals to get graded. WHY? What do you care. First off I would assume that they have thought of the reseal factor and have people who would weed such games out. So the next question is why do people hate the idea that games could be graded?

Wouldn't you like to know that the game you are going to possibly be paying hundreds of dollars for has been looked at and verified by some 3rd party? How many times have people complained about getting reseals on Digital Press. I recall a guy who recently paid big bucks for a Sealed FF VII only to get it and see that it was not sealed, and that the back tray liner had the green "greatest hits" spine. If that game was graded, I won't say that there would be "no question" that it was authentic, but it would be less in doubt if it was graded.

I see this as a good thing good thing for the hobby. If people are going to shell out for sealed games, the grading system will insure that at least someone other than the seller has looked at the game. Two sets of eyes are better than one.

Personally I would love to have a Wayne Gretzky Rookie card. But I know there are lots of counterfeit cards out there, so I will pay extra to have one that is BGS or PSA graded. I would rather pay 800.00 for a graded Gretzky rookie than to take a chance and purchase an ungraded card for 500.00. Think about it, we all know that eBay and PayPal won't do shit for you if you feel you got screwed in a transaction. So why take a chance with something that could be fake, when you can be guaranteed that you are getting the real thing?

Lets put the above example in gaming terms. You are on ebay and you see a sealed FFIII, you mention the listing on the digital press. What is the first thing that happens? People start critiquing every aspect of the game. Someone says "that shrink wrap line is crooked" or "look at the corners", or "look at the corner wear". No matter what the seller says, the seed of doubt has been planted in your head, and you are wondering if you should place a bid. You are going to spend hundreds of dollars on something that you cannot even verify is a factory seal. You are going on what the seller lists in the auction, and most people who are "in the know" are saying it may not be a genuine factory seal.

If you have been on Digital Press for any amount of time, you have probably seen a posting similar to what I am describing. I know it would be best if you could take a look at the game in question "in hand" to physically hold the game and make your own decision, but if you are buying online this is not possible. So what is the next best thing? Would it be possible to have someone else look at the game and verify, to the best of their professional ability, that the game is really a factory seal?

How many people go out and buy a new car, or a house, without asking someone else's opinion on the purchase? So look at the grading of video games as that second opinion. No more speculation. If you are collecting sealed games this is a good tool to have. Pay a little more for the grade, and the insurance that it is a genuine sealed game.

If you are not collecting sealed games.... stop posting in this thread. You are not buying, so what does it matter to you? Why do you want to see this person fail? Be happy! Stop the bashing!

[TonyTheTiger]

Ugh. We already went through multiple examples of what other side effects grading could have on the industry.

[Icarus Moonsight]

If you are not collecting sealed games.... stop posting in this thread. You are not buying, so what does it matter to you? Why do you want to see this person fail? Be happy! Stop the bashing!

Who says I'm not buying? I've bought sealed games in the past and recently so I do have a stake in this. Furthermore, it is my contention (and I'm not alone) that this will spread and effect all retro gamers and collectors in some degree (whom will be effected and the severity is yet to be seen but, once done it can not be taken back - care is required).

I like to see all bad ideas fail - there is nothing unique about this situation. Why so concerned about silencing an opposing view point? Or is it that you can't rebut so, to save face you throw out a thinly veiled, yet polite, STFU? I believe I am entitled to my contempt. Now I know I've earned it. :) Thanks.

[rpepper9]

Who says I'm not buying? I've bought sealed games in the past and recently so I do have a stake in this. Furthermore, it is my contention (and I'm not alone) that this will spread and effect all retro gamers and collectors in some degree (whom will be effected and the severity is yet to be seen but, once done it can not be taken back - care is required).

I like to see all bad ideas fail - there is nothing unique about this situation. Why so concerned about silencing an opposing view point? Or is it that you can't rebut so, to save face you throw out a thinly veiled, yet polite, STFU? I believe I am entitled to my contempt. Now I know I've earned it. :) Thanks.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people didn't have a stake in this. I am just trying to say do what is best for your collection, and leave others to do what is best for their collection.

[smork]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people didn't have a stake in this. I am just trying to say do what is best for your collection, and leave others to do what is best for their collection.

But it affects everyone! I don't go out of my way to collect sealed, but I do go for ultra-minty and new games (lots of the ones I buy don't come sealed) and quite frankly I don't want my prices going up if everyone starts speculating with sealed games.

The worst case scenario for us non-sealed collectors is a game that is expected to have a limited print run (like an LE or an Atlus title) for a new system to be bought up by speculators and graders so nobody can buy a new copy unslabbed. Don't think it would happen? Look at the Megaten games and how jacked the prices are already for opened games. We know Atlus doesn't do reprints, so we could see $150, $200 a game a few months after release! You know the speculators will smell blood in the water and choke out us normal collectors.

I like picking up the occasional sealed vintage game, but I'll be damned if I'll pay a premium to get a graded sealed game. To me, it's not ever going to be worth it.

[TonyTheTiger]

And, again, undisciplined and shortsighted speculation can lead to a lot of bankrupt small publishers.

There's also another risk. Currently, reseals for the most part are noticeable. But, I said this before in another thread...it's shrinkwrapping, not brain surgery. It's a realistic possibility that someone out there, with enough time, patience, and skill, could replicate a factory seal in such a way that it's completely indistinguishable from an original one. Something like that will fool experts and novices alike as...well...it'd be identical. Now, presumably, once something gets graded and slabbed then that's the official number and nobody can refute it. So what this would do is just encourage more people to run scams and try to squeeze by as many reseals as possible. And the more people invested in something the more progress they'll make in that field. Is encouraging more people to get into the resealing market really a good idea?

This isn't like faking a baseball card or counterfeiting money. Shrinkwrapping is infinitely simpler than that when you're dealing with games that come in jewel cases. I'd even venture a guess that faking a seal on a cardboard box is easier than counterfeiting a bill (even before the new security features were introduced). If you have an undamaged copy of a game, and a machine comparable to what the factories use, nobody's going to be able to tell the difference.

This goes back to my issues with the lack of distinction between "guideline" and "gospel." Once something becomes gospel, which grading always does, if you fool the graders then that mistake becomes "official." Hell, if the coin collectors who resubmit coins for a higher rating are any indication, "official" mistakes happen enough times for it to render the entire grading system a sham. The point is, the risk of paying out of the ass for a graded fake is higher when dealing with video games than it is with coins, baseball cards, or comic books. And if graded games become a hot commodity that's only going to encourage more people to find loopholes.

[98PaceCar]

The big difference between grading coins, stamps, action figures, or even comic books and sealed games is that each of these can be checked in it's entirety with the exception of sealed games, so the grade given reflects the condition of the entire item. That can't be done on a sealed game without breaking the seal. Who's to say the game wasn't resealed with a different and less valuable cart inside? There's much more reason for people to do this with games because you can't see what's inside the box, so if it comes back as an authentic seal the buyers will have no reason to doubt it is authentic while at the same time the seller ends up with a graded copy of the game along with a loose copy of the game. Not a bad way to push profits up if you can make it happen and as stated above, it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery.

All that this grading service is going to do is make a very small segment of collectors feel better about their purchases while opening the doors to all sorts of new scammers and pushing prices across the board higher due to speculation.

[y-bot]

The big difference between grading coins, stamps, action figures, or even comic books and sealed games is that each of these can be checked in it's entirety with the exception of sealed games, so the grade given reflects the condition of the entire item. That can't be done on a sealed game without breaking the seal. Who's to say the game wasn't resealed with a different and less valuable cart inside? There's much more reason for people to do this with games because you can't see what's inside the box, so if it comes back as an authentic seal the buyers will have no reason to doubt it is authentic while at the same time the seller ends up with a graded copy of the game along with a loose copy of the game. Not a bad way to push profits up if you can make it happen and as stated above, it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery.

All that this grading service is going to do is make a very small segment of collectors feel better about their purchases while opening the doors to all sorts of new scammers and pushing prices across the board higher due to speculation.

They've been graded sealed boxed toys for awhile. There are ways to tell if a box has opened or not but I have no idea how could tell if a jewel case game has been opened or not.

y-bot

[98PaceCar]

They've been graded sealed boxed toys for awhile. There are ways to tell if a box has opened or not but I have no idea how could tell if a jewel case game has been opened or not.

y-bot

Good point, I was thinking more of blister packed action figures where you can see the whole item, but there would be a need for the boxed toys that don't have windows as well.

Like you, I would be more concerned with jewel cased games as opening them has little impact on the structure of the case, with the exception of the seals but I've opened games without removing the seals on a regular basis. Actually makes it easier to get the seals off of them cleanly!

[Sosage]

I wish I could slab some of your posts, just so it could remain sealed and unread forever.

You can hang out in the opened-games ghetto, passing out your “Slabonomics is a Myth” pamphlet all you want. Just don't be heartbroken when no one signs up for your newsletter.

[PentiumMMX]

I don't like this idea. I almost puked when I saw a copy of the first Metal Gear sealed in one of those cases. At least there's still plenty of loose copies...

[Pascal]

btw.: www.sealedgameheaven.com have a sealed game grading service too and the biggest sealed collector community !

[boatofcar]

btw.: www.sealedgameheaven.com have a sealed game grading service too and the biggest sealed collector community !

Yeah, good luck with that.

[backguard]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130213139176&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

you have to keep them in these horrible plastic cases.

[JerseyDevil65]

I can only see the bad here. Once there is big money to be made on graded sealed games, then people will come up with ways to fool the experts. Once there are known fakes out there that fooled the "experts" then all sealed games, legitimate and otherwise, become suspect and will probably lose value.

I remember 2 incidents in the sports collectable world.

1. One was when a bunch of counterfeit Wayne Gretzky rookie were not detected by the grading company and graded mint and near-mint. I believe that company went out of business, since they had lost all credibility.

2. On a show on ESPN (Between the Lines, IIRC) they had 5 Ted Williams autographed baseballs and they were submitted to one of those "forensic authenticators" They declared all 5 were real, when in fact 4 of the 5 were fake.

[boatofcar]

Once there are known fakes out there that fooled the "experts" then all sealed games, legitimate and otherwise, become suspect and will probably lose value.


So grading is bad because it will cause games to gain and lose value?

I heard grading games also kills puppies.

[Fuyukaze]

But it affects everyone! I don't go out of my way to collect sealed, but I do go for ultra-minty and new games (lots of the ones I buy don't come sealed) and quite frankly I don't want my prices going up if everyone starts speculating with sealed games.

The worst case scenario for us non-sealed collectors is a game that is expected to have a limited print run (like an LE or an Atlus title) for a new system to be bought up by speculators and graders so nobody can buy a new copy unslabbed. Don't think it would happen? Look at the Megaten games and how jacked the prices are already for opened games. We know Atlus doesn't do reprints, so we could see $150, $200 a game a few months after release! You know the speculators will smell blood in the water and choke out us normal collectors.

I like picking up the occasional sealed vintage game, but I'll be damned if I'll pay a premium to get a graded sealed game. To me, it's not ever going to be worth it.


This is a more post of the year material so far.

I buy games both sealed, complete, and loose on ebay. The problems I have with slabbing games are......

1.How do they verify the contents without breaking the seal? Sure, there is tech available that can read the text/show text as present but what company is going to invest in top of the line airport x-ray machines? What company, a start up no less, is going to invest in a multi-million $$ machine just to verify a game for $25? It's going to take atleast 200,000 or more jobs just to pay the damned machine off, let alone pay anyone their wages.

2.What sellers in their right mind would ever think of selling ANY new game non-slabbed if they thought slabbing it would make them alot more? Saying it's only good for the most expensive of games sounds good but knowing it could increase the value 2-3x over a non graded or in some cases have the posibility of going as high as 5x (if not more), what ebay seller wouldnt?

3.What are buyers to do when they pop the seal and find their $300 copy of super mario brothers 3 is in fact a super mario brothers 1 that includes duck hunt for free? Who's to say the seller didnt get it from someone else? Not as if paypal's going to give a rats ass and offer a refund. Neither will ebay.

The whole thing's a bad idea. I could understand grading games that were CIB and I wouldnt like it in the least even then, but atleast it'd make sense that way. It would let people know that at the very least, an attempt was made to verify that everything was included that was soposed to. The grading of the manual, box, and game was eyed over and examined by someone. I'm certain even then they'd have slip ups as games often times include stuff people either forget were included or thought wasnt worth including. Things like maps, posters, registration cards, and such, who's to say the person grading even knows it's soposed to be there? Sure, it would ruin the hobby for anyone getting in who was in it for love of gaming, but, it would atleast make sense for CIB. Sealed, it's just a way for a small group in collecting to justify not opening their sealed stuff to play and enjoy.

[JerseyDevil65]

So grading is bad because it will cause games to gain and lose value?

I heard grading games also kills puppies.

Did you actually read my post? Games will gain in value initially, then once fakes happen and they almost always do, they will lose value because no one will able to trust the graded sealed games anymore.

[boatofcar]

This is a more post of the year material so far.

I buy games both sealed, complete, and loose on ebay. The problems I have with slabbing games are......

1.How do they verify the contents without breaking the seal? Sure, there is tech available that can read the text/show text as present but what company is going to invest in top of the line airport x-ray machines? What company, a start up no less, is going to invest in a multi-million $$ machine just to verify a game for $25? It's going to take atleast 200,000 or more jobs just to pay the damned machine off, let alone pay anyone their wages.


AFA is not a startup company. Perhaps you should read more about the company behind this.



2.What sellers in their right mind would ever think of selling ANY new game non-slabbed if they thought slabbing it would make them alot more? Saying it's only good for the most expensive of games sounds good but knowing it could increase the value 2-3x over a non graded or in some cases have the posibility of going as high as 5x (if not more), what ebay seller wouldnt?


Because 2 or 3 times a non graded price is still going be less than the $20 or $30 it costs for the slab. Same as with coins.



3.What are buyers to do when they pop the seal and find their $300 copy of super mario brothers 3 is in fact a super mario brothers 1 that includes duck hunt for free? Who's to say the seller didnt get it from someone else? Not as if paypal's going to give a rats ass and offer a refund. Neither will ebay.


What do buyers do when they crack open the shrinkwrap and find their sealed copy they paid big money for has a SMB/DH in it do now? 3rd party grading gives the buyer a sense of security in buying sealed games, unlike buying sealed games now which offers no security at all. Whether that sense of security is well-founded or not, only time will tell.

[Bronty-2]

they're not graded jewel case stuff for now. Somebody sent in a super mario galaxy so they graded that because it came out like last week, but for the most part they starting slow with cardboard boxed items and will make a call on whether or not to even graded sealed PS games and the like at a later date. They may not know everything at this point but they've done a good amount of homework on the nintendo side anyways.

[Iron Draggon]

quote from http://www.gamesniped.com/2008/04/09/first-vga-graded-games-hit-ebay/

"I’m waiting for someone who thinks that grading is the worst thing to happen to the hobby to make a statement. Take everything they’ve learned, resell some expensive game and then get it graded. it they can get it passed and prove it was resealed, the whole video game grading industry will lose momentum."

somebody PLEASE do this! game grading is BULLSHIT! the last thing that ANY of US need is for the price of false rares like Radiant Silvergun to go up even higher, just because some ASSHAT decided one copy is better than another!

most people here know that I'm both a gamer and a collector... I own 1000's of games that were all bought brand new, way back when, and all are still in PERFECT condition, including 100's of the rarest of rare releases, according to the DP guide... most people here also know that occaisonally I'll overpay bigtime for a factory sealed copy of a game that I missed way back when, just so I can open it and play it, and add it to my collection... because all my games were bought the same way: factory sealed, then opened and played, but always meticulously cared for to preserve their PRISTINE mint quality...

so I stand both the most to gain and the most to lose over this situation... if I ever decided to sell my collection, I could pay $1000's to have it all graded, and no doubt I'd make a fortune in doing so, even factoring in the expense of having it all graded... but why the fuck should I have to do all of that extra shit, when I already know that every single game in my collection would be graded perfect or very near perfect? just so I could certify that I'm not lying about the condition of it all? any SERIOUS buyer could easily verify that in person, and with a collection as large and pristine and valuable as mine under consideration, one would have to be a VERY serious buyer, willing to come see it for themselves in person, before making me any offers on it... cause I sure as hell wouldn't be accepting any less than what it cost me to obtain it all as payment for it all, and I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to estimate the cost of shipping it all either... a potential buyer of my collection would have make their own arrangements for the transfer of it all, cause I don't care how much they paid me for it all, I couldn't be more bothered than to have to deal with shipping it all to their specified location for them myself... so again, why the fuck would I ever want to burden myself with having it all graded, just so I could sell it all for more money? I'd have to be greedy as all hell to go to all that trouble, just to sell it all... and I'd be far more concerned that any new owner of my collection would keep it all intact and pristine, and only add to it, not take away from it by breaking it all up and selling it all individually... I'd want its new owner to be a fellow gamer and collector like myself, who would fully appreciate all the passion and hard work that I put into collecting it all for them... not to mention all my hard work earning the money to buy it all...

so let's say that I'm just not greedy enough to bother going to all the extra trouble of having it all graded before I sell it all, or maybe I'm just too lazy to do it... then I'd be losing $1000's by selling it all off ungraded, just so some ASSHAT posing very convincingly as a serious gamer and collector like myself can practically steal it all from me, pay the extra $1000's in grading fees that I saved him when I sold it all to him ungraded, get the exact same perfect or very near perfect grades that I would've gotten if I had bothered to have it all graded myself, and sell it all off to some investor for a tremendous profit, even after subtracting grading expenses... yeah, that would be great... NOT!

oh, but I wouldn't have to have it ALL graded, just all the rarities in it... yeah, right... as if anyone would ever be willing to pay top dollar for a large collection of rarities in perfect mint condition, that might include an even larger collection of common titles in unresellable condition... anyone with that much money at stake would never be willing to risk losing everything that they were hoping to make in profits to the expense of dumping a ton of JUNK... but let's say they were willing to risk it... would they ever pay me as much for it all, if only half of it was guaranteed, as they would if it was all guaranteed? of course not... so again I'd be both a winner and a loser...

but the biggest reason why grading games SUCKS, as far as I'm concerned, is because my cost to continue collecting in the manner that I've been doing so for the last two decades would go up exponentially because of it... yeah, it would be very profitable for me, if I ever wanted to sell my collection, but until then, it would be nothing but a very prohibitive extra expense... and we all know that this hobby is already more than expensive enough... yeah, you can still enjoy it for dirt cheap, if you don't mind collecting huge amounts of JUNK, but if you're more into collecting for preservational archiving purposes, it already requires tons of money to do it, and it doesn't need to cost more!

[Vectorman0]

I moved your post to this thread.

[Iron Draggon]

I moved your post to this thread.

THANK YOU... you just saved me the trouble of reposting it here myself... I thought that I was posting it in this tread when I posted it in the other one

[Nukie]

But if a reseal is identical to an actual factory seal, no one could tell the difference, so the idea that it condemns everything is moot. If I can create an exact replica of something, everyone would assume it was the real deal, unless I came out and said it wasn't. But then, most people would be more impressed by the skill put in the replica than the fact that it was replicated in the first place. I can see the reseal arguement if its a good reseal that you can tell is fake, but from what I've heard from bronty elsewhere, they are doing a ton of research and asking people who have large sealed collections for help on how to detect a fake, so the risk should be minimal.

With that said, I don't collect sealed or even cib for most systems so I have no real stake in this at this point.

[calthaer]

In one sense, I have to agree that this is abjectly silly. I have a few comic books, including a big G.I.Joe collection, but you know what? I bought them to read. I like the story. I keep them in sealed bags so that I can continue to enjoy the stories whenever I want to for years to come - not because I plan on selling them to someone else for a profit (although if I became poor, I suppose I would).

In the same way, I think graded games is silly. I buy games to play them and enjoy them. I generally keep them in a dry, safe place so that I can continue to play them for years to come.

But with sealed games: what do people really care if it's sealed or re-sealed? You weren't going to take it out and play it, anyways, I'm guessing. Is it just the idea that you COULD take it out and open it and play it just as if you'd purchased it fresh from the store in 1986 the compelling idea? Is it the notion that you have something that other people want (or might want)? I'm actually curious as to the psychology behind this; I'm not trying to be belligerent or anything.

With baseball cards, I can see the appeal - the end product is sitting right there and you can enjoy it. But with games? That's like buying an unopened pack of baseball cards and then getting that "graded."

The other difference with games is the fact of emulation. Good emulation makes it possible to "re-print" games as many times as we want. As emulation improves, the quality of those "re-prints" will improve. I would rather take the good money I would shell out for a sealed copy for a game and fund an emulation effort that allows people to enjoy the games rather than just hoard them. All the games from a system, I might add - not just the ones that the people who make / made the hardware deem reprint-worthy.

On the same note, I would rather pay money for that new online Marvel comic book library than I would spend a bajillion dollars on a rare holofoil variant cover or something.

But I do agree with those who said that this was probably inevitable. Some people like this, and the market may (or may not) support it. The best thing you can do is refuse to participate - don't send your games in and don't purchase graded games. If you're feeling really radical, don't purchase from collectors whom you know have done so.

[vintagegamecrazy]

I'm a late poster here, I can't see any good in it at all. Those games look terrible slabbed, If I collected them that way, which I don't, I wouldn't slab them, I would display them safely on shelves library style so they would look like a honest collection and not just some high price thing that I can brag about. This won't bother me too much until they start slabbing every loose cart they find, this will make me mad as I collect games to play and and I go for complete collections but I like them more for historical value then having them look nice and useless on a slab. I buy games that are sealed if I need it for my collection but I usually open it to play it, if it's a valuable game that I got for cheap and can sell it for a lot then rebuy it cheaply when it's opened then I do it.

I see this over inflating the game collecting market even more then it already is. Every other collectable has ran its course and are now left with the hardcore and smaller collecting communities for each category. I think that eventually every one of these useless speculators will over inflate the hobby and cause it to implode and kill every last ounce of profit they can make and they deserve every bit of it.

[LuxKiller65]

Please someone stop this silly joke!

Link: :monkey: (http://cgi.ebay.com/CASTLEVANIA-II-2-VGA-90-1988-NINTENDO-NES-SEALED_W0QQitemZ130217041626QQihZ003QQcategoryZ620 53QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[ProgrammingAce]

VGA was formed due to the large amount of over grading that exists in the video game market. This over grading only brings problems and frustration to its collectors.

Buyers, sellers and collectors of video games have no universal standard by which to judge. They all use their own definitions and standards to grade items. One mint c-10 item is completely different from another. Until now!

Huh, wha?

[Rob2600]

Please someone stop this silly joke!

Link: eBay - Castlevania II slabbed (http://cgi.ebay.com/CASTLEVANIA-II-2-VGA-90-1988-NINTENDO-NES-SEALED_W0QQitemZ130217041626QQihZ003QQcategoryZ620 53QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

$400 for Castlevania II: Simon's Quest? I'm speechless.

[LuxKiller65]

Does the seller really thinks a sealed North American version of this game is rare? I see at least one each month on eBay.com. Whatever old game people have, they think they found the holy grail... or what's their problem?

Who wants to grade betas?

:D

[kaedesdisciple]

$400 for Castlevania II: Simon's Quest? I'm speechless.

So am I. I'd say roughly 90% of that item's page is devoted to a description of the VGA. They advertise the VGA to the hilt, but don't mention a word about the game other than the title and what system it's for. This is absolutely obscene.

[98PaceCar]

This is absolutely obscene.

Not only is it obscene, it's also proof that the grading company is in bed with certain sellers and is going to cash in as much as they can.

[calthaer]

The bidders are probably shill bidders, too. Buddies of whatever ratings organization wants to prove that their rating will make a game worth that much. What a crock.

[TonyTheTiger]

Agreed. This is as textbook as it could be. They're trying to buy credibility by artificially creating a situation where it looks like this shit is legitimate. With any luck people are smart enough not to fall for it. They can't keep shilling forever if no real collector is buying into the scam.

[otoko]

bah.. That's all I have to say about this "Bah".

[kaedesdisciple]

On top of that, have you looked at the prices VGA charges to get the games graded? The service price is a farce, you have to submit the fair market value for the games, and then you pay VGA based upon a tier structure built around fair market value of the game. The more ebay thinks my game is worth, the more I have to pay you to perform the same service on a game a fraction of its perceived value on a non-impartial, easily manipulated system? I can't believe they honestly think vg collectors are this gullible.

[otoko]

On top of that, have you looked at the prices VGA charges to get the games graded? The service price is a farce, you have to submit the fair market value for the games, and then you pay VGA based upon a tier structure built around fair market value of the game. The more ebay thinks my game is worth, the more I have to pay you to perform the same service on a game a fraction of its value? I can't believe they honestly think vg collectors are this gullible.

Someone is...

[Greg2600]

That is exactly what has happened in trading cards and memorabilia. When something like this becomes a commodity, it becomes no different than brokers trading wheat, orange, oil or gold futures. It's simply gambling. Thank our near $4 gas on such markets.

[Rob2600]

This is as textbook as it could be. They're trying to buy credibility by artificially creating a situation where it looks like this shit is legitimate.

If they really want to look legitimate, they shouldn't charge $400 for Simon's Quest!

EDIT: On second thought, maybe these shills are simply gauging/testing the market right now. If nobody buys Simon's Quest for $400, they'll lower the price to $300. If nobody buys it for $300, they'll lower the price to $200, and so on and so forth until someone actually buys it. Then, they'll know just how much bidders are willing to spend on slabbed NES games. Ugh.