It begins.... Video game grading

[Rob2600]

I'm certain these auctions are shills. A real auction at a stupid price just won't sell. A shill auction's purpose is to essentially trick people into thinking these items are actually worth that much so that "perfect storm" I mentioned a while back happens for the VGA.

I agree. Damn them and their shenanigans.

Has the VGA been successful in tricking people with these ridiculous auctions/Buy It Nows yet? I hope not.


EDIT: Was Neogamer from the future? He promised us this was coming.

[Icarus Moonsight]

When I read this thread I agree with some posts... the rest is just propaganda from Das Butterland. Just wait until the opened and loose game burnings start up. :p

The fact remains that this 'service' is only viable for a small percentage of us enthusiasts, and we are only a small percentage of the population at large. So, yeah, you'll have that 9.5 slabbed Chrono Trigger... but almost no one will care. Might as well have a pocket pussy installed during slabbing and then you can sleep with it. Is it vanity or preservation? Really, think about it.

The average persons eyes will glace right over a slabbed Quad Run but, suddenly stop at a loose and beat up Pac-Man, "Oh! I remember this!"

To quote an outpost9 post, "You are not your fake cornrows!"

[Icarus Moonsight]

I'm refering to people that specifically collect factory sealed games, not people that buy a new game to open and play it. The only way to make sure a game(especially with a battery save) is still working is to play it. I doubt a sealed game collector would open the box as soon as they got it to test it out, as it wouldn't be sealed anymore. Does that make sense, that opening a game and testing it makes it used? That pretty much defeats the purpose of getting a sealed game, for a person that collects sealed games. I'm aware that most games were originally sealed when new and then opened at some point, and the person that opened it expected it to work or they'd return it to the store(that's true for any consumer product).

Most people assume that because something is new it means it's in perfect condition and working, but that's not always true. It's most likely that it would still be working fine but there's a chance that it won't(just like with used games).




Wasn't there someone here that posted an auction that made fun of grading? I know I posted links about it on another forum and someone said a DP member was behind it. I'll just copy what I posted on the other forum as I feel it's appropriate. :-D


http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5130/03d41vb6.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7858/smbrownbagfrontmr1qi1.jpg

That is why Vectorman is The Man! LOL

[TonyTheTiger]

I agree. Damn them and their shenanigans.

Has the VGA been successful in tricking people with these ridiculous auctions/Buy It Nows yet? I hope not.

Probably not. As much as I don't like grading companies I don't think it's all fire and brimstone. These VGA auctions are only going to be appealing to a very very small minority. It would take someone with too much money and too little sense to fall into this.

[Press_Start]

It would take someone with too much money and too little sense to fall into this.

Unfortunately, that's how most sellers on Ebay are these days. Take a look at most of the BINs for TurboGrafx. $600 for a complete Turbo Duo. $200 for Y's I and II without box and map. You know greed has made people lose touch with reality when they hope a lobotomized monkey winning the lottery is going to match their price.

[Octopod]

3 Grand? LOL That is an expensive paperweight. Is the slab made out of kryptonite or something?

[SegaAges]

See, I don't care that he is trying to make 3 grand from it. What I personally have a problem with is the 39.95 shipping he tacked on here. What the hell is the $40 shipping for, is he delivering it himself by driving to your house?

[TSB-Champ]

After searching through VGA graded games online, I still have only seen very little graded 95 and I have never seen a "100". At least they do keep only the "uber-mint" condition games in a separate category.
You can find 90s around and I have a 85 graded Tecmo Super Bowl that I picked up for the cheap. and I must say it's basically flawless. Probably should be a 90.
Maybe I should resubmit it.

[TonyTheTiger]

And if you do resubmit it, and it comes back at anything other than an 85, it will prove my point. Frankly, I wonder what it would take to get a 100. What does something need to look like to be considered genuinely perfect?

[TSB-Champ]

And if you do resubmit it, and it comes back at anything other than an 85, it will prove my point. Frankly, I wonder what it would take to get a 100. What does something need to look like to be considered genuinely perfect?
I dunno.

VGA says: "The VGA Gold level consists of the grades 100, 95, and 90. The select few items that receive these grades are among the highest quality in existence. A very small percentage of items submitted to VGA receive a Gold grade. The flaws are very minor, very subtle, and are sometimes very hard to identify with the naked eye. The collector who is extremely condition sensitive will be satisfied with the condition of a Gold level item."

I would imagine it would have to be uncirculated. Because anything that was manufactured, boxed, shipped across the sea, unboxed and put on the store shelf, have kids rifeling through different games and then purchased and brought home, and then stored for 15-20 years in a safe place would show very minor wear with the most delicate care. I would imagine the corners would have to be super sharp.

My one graded Tecmo Super Bowl game is rated 85 and is virtually perfect. So, I really don't know what it would take to get a 90, 95 or 100. I have another sealed TSB, maybe I should submit that. What is it? $25? Might be worth it.

I'm not resubmitting this one though, I don't really care enough. I didn't pay much more than what a normal sealed version would go for.

I do have to say though, that the case does seem to be pretty high quality.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

I saw a VGA 90 Michael Jackson's Moonwalker for Genesis for 35 grand on the second link the OP provided. $35,000?!?!? That's almost twice the price my 2008 Honda Accord was used, loaded, in pristine condition, in May 2012! Moonwalker is just an R3 game, worth $12 according to the database - complete. (Now, it's in the $20s, but still...) How about this? I have Aerobiz Supersonic, for SNES, complete, probably "VGA 85" condition. How much is it worth? According to the whole VGA thing, $60,000? No way! If I were to sell it, it'd be 50 bucks or so. VGA is total bull. Even in the tiny, tiny chance that some rich fool would buy it at 60 grand, I'd feel very, very unethical selling it at that price.

Fortunately, people aren't buying at $35,000, or $60,000, or any of those other mega-ludicrous prices. But I've seen VGA-graded shit sell for thousands of dollars, stuff that shouldn't be worth 1% of that price. I don't see the market getting that big - 99.999% of video game collectors and players can't afford a SMB 3 at a thousand bucks. I have a grading system already - my own two eyeballs. I can take a Post-it note, make up a scale, and write a number on it and stick it on my games if I really wanted them graded that bad.

[classyshepard]

I didn't like how you can't remove your games from VGA cases so I made my own...

http://i.imgur.com/DD4NXQ4.jpg

[Tanooki]

Those do look nicer. A good solid case that'll really protect yet can be opened unlike the shadow grading virtual coffins of VGA boxes.

[Daria]

I encase all my games in solid slabs of concrete. Don't want them devalued by all those dirty stares of appreciation. :P

[Tanooki]

Oh come on, you know that isn't good enough, you need one of these energy bubbles. Nothing less than floating in an electrically charged bubble in a vacuum within. The concrete would devalue it from mere touch.

7509

[RP2A03]

Oh come on, you know that isn't good enough, you need one of these energy bubbles. Nothing less than floating in an electrically charged bubble in a vacuum within. The concrete would devalue it from mere touch.

7509

But then what would protect it from the deleterious effects of high energy photons?

[Tanooki]

Good point. I think they're just shit out of luck and have to accept everything degrades and the grades they get aren't accurate seeing you can resubmit for a nicer one with persistence. You can't just shoot it into space either, it maybe a vacuum but those cosmic rays will just wreck that thing.

[JSoup]

I encase all my games in solid slabs of concrete. Don't want them devalued by all those dirty stares of appreciation. :P

Instead you want them devalued by the crushing they'll get when the concrete expands in the heat.

[ProjectCamaro]

I didn't like how you can't remove your games from VGA cases so I made my own...

http://i.imgur.com/DD4NXQ4.jpg

If I had some rarer games, or some that had box art that I really liked I could see doing this. It looks cool but you can still enjoy the games and even trade out which ones are in the cases from time to time.

If you don't mind me asking how did you make them and have you considered selling them? (Feel free to shoot me a PM so we don't derail this thread)

[Daria]

Instead you want them devalued by the crushing they'll get when the concrete expands in the heat.


Schrodinger's theory. My games are simultaneously both mint and not mint until you break open the concrete.

[RP2A03]

Schrodinger's theory. My games are simultaneously both mint and not mint until you break open the concrete.

Encasing something in concrete does not magically put it in a quantum state.

[JSoup]

Encasing something in concrete does not magically put it in a quantum state.

Nor does putting a cat in a box, what's your point?

[Bojay1997]

If I had some rarer games, or some that had box art that I really liked I could see doing this. It looks cool but you can still enjoy the games and even trade out which ones are in the cases from time to time.

If you don't mind me asking how did you make them and have you considered selling them? (Feel free to shoot me a PM so we don't derail this thread)

The whole reason this guy posted here is to sell his boxes. If you follow his link, it goes to his Facebook that then links to his Ebay sales. They're $30 each shipped and based on the comments on other forums I am involved with, the general consensus is that they are a little too expensive.

[xelement5x]

Yeah, $30 is pretty dang high. I might buy a couple in like the $10 range but it would still be a stretch for any gamer.

[Tanooki]

Probably that much due to the cost of doing them one or a few at a time instead of in bulk like with how VGA does it with that big school of fish they lure in.

[Daria]

In his thread at NA he was selling them for $20 a pop. But, I dunno, maybe that doesn't include shipping or something.

[Gameguy]

I encase all my games in solid slabs of concrete. Don't want them devalued by all those dirty stares of appreciation. :P

Instead you want them devalued by the crushing they'll get when the concrete expands in the heat.
Why would they devalue? Just bury them for a few decades in a New Mexico landfill and they'll actually appreciate in value.

[tom]

Looks like UK is doing that shit too, ukgraders.com

This seller in UK had the Coke Wins game on ebay for ages, BIN GBP above 1000. Didn't sell, of course.
Now he put it up for GBP 1 starting price.
That's more realistic.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pepsi-Invaders-Coke-Wins-Authenticated-Prototype-Game-Archived-UKG-VGA-NG-Rare-/201103582438?pt=UK_PC_Video_Games_Video_Games_JS&hash=item2ed2b524e6

[megasdkirby]

Looks like UK is doing that shit too, ukgraders.com

This seller in UK had the Coke Wins game on ebay for ages, BIN GBP above 1000. Didn't sell, of course.
Now he put it up for GBP 1 starting price.
That's more realistic.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pepsi-Invaders-Coke-Wins-Authenticated-Prototype-Game-Archived-UKG-VGA-NG-Rare-/201103582438?pt=UK_PC_Video_Games_Video_Games_JS&hash=item2ed2b524e6

These things are all done to prey on the clueless and weak. If a person is willing to throw away money like that, let them. Most of us arent that stupid.

[GamerTheGreek]

Sealed stuff i can understand a little more than the loose items cause honestly IF i got something sealed new from the 80s or even early 90s i probably pass on opening it up. Id just find another loose or open copy to play. Just how I am. So grading almost makes sense on sealed items. I think it really doesnt add anything to the price of the game in my book. a boxed sealed game is just that a sealed game. Price that according. I got a Virtual Reality head set for the SNES and Genesis sealed unopened. I dont see myself cracking that open to use. Ill look for a used one to play. But sealed things are cool to have when you find em.

[PapaStu]

This needs to be read by all.

http://www.nintendoplayer.com/feature/vga/

[Tanooki]

I power read most of that and it's stunning and lots of shady bits in there too. It's great they went to such efforts citing all sources throughout the article as well.

I'd really love to see this one posted over at NA to see the responses to it. The defensiveness of the VGA users would probably go into overdrive.

[JSoup]

It would probably get ignored and the topic locked, like all the others.
Edit: Wasn't aware of that Harvest Moon proto floating around on eBay. Too bad we'll probably never see it.

[badinsults]

It would probably get ignored and the topic locked, like all the others.
Edit: Wasn't aware of that Harvest Moon proto floating around on eBay. Too bad we'll probably never see it.

There are actually at least two. Mike (who runs nintendoplayer.com) dumped one (http://www.nintendoplayer.com/prototype/harvest-moon/), but it was the same as final. The graded copy is most likely the same as final, but it appears the seller is happy to let it stay on Ebay for an excessive BIN, so we will never know. Besides, if we want an interesting prototype of Harvest Moon, we would need to find a Japanese prototype.

[Greg2600]

I have been anti-VGA since day one, as I've probably written in the thread years ago. Hasn't changed one bit. It's a racket, and I know one when I see one. I spent a decade in the sports card world, and the grading crap took over there, and ruined everything. I won't give a graded item the time of day, because to me the value doesn't change one bit. It is what it is.

[badinsults]

I have been anti-VGA since day one, as I've probably written in the thread years ago. Hasn't changed one bit. It's a racket, and I know one when I see one. I spent a decade in the sports card world, and the grading crap took over there, and ruined everything. I won't give a graded item the time of day, because to me the value doesn't change one bit. It is what it is.

The thing that really tickles me in that article is that the fine print of the grading is that they make no guarantee or warranty on the authenticity of the item. When it was revealed that they graded a bunch of resealed Star Wars toys, they basically told the collectors "fuck you, we made no guarantees". If the same happens with resealed video games (and I would not be surprised if it happens, considering that the sealing machines still exist), they will give the same canned response. Their service is essentially a sham, as was demonstrated with Mike's overview of prototype grading. They claim to authenticate prototypes, but they would not tell Mike who authenticated them, and the major prototype collectors said they were not contacted. One would assume that one of the main benefits of grading a game would be that the methods of authentication would be transparent, but that certainly is not the case.

[Tanooki]

That's entirely what's shady about it and my primary problem. ZERO accountability. They straight up even admit that shit, yet so many foolish individuals still pay them for their speculative suspect services. Some other grading companies also have solid standards and they're known, so if you send something in what you get is it short of a rare case of a screw up. I've seen enough people at NA (and elsewhere to a much lesser degree) submit stuff, hate the grade, then send it back once or more and get a better one each time paying the fee and doing the weeks or more of a waiting game on it. Having set standards and letting them be known would say a lot to curbing that, and now you have that whole hot mess with open but supposedly unused Qualified goods, right. It most definitely is a racket and it does affect the pricing on games for the stuff that's in really stellar shape even if it is loose, complete, or sealed. It's the whole coorelation of it existing just like with other things that have those services behind them, it causes as one of the effects escalation. Escalated awareness money can be had, escalated awareness that it's a collectible, escalation of competition, and in turn higher prices. If no one but those who really do love the games gave a damn and it wasn't being pumped up so, things would be a different picture indeed.

I do remember the proto scam too as it came up at NA as I recall at least with the Nolan's saying it was BS too they had nothing to do with this or that on providing proof some game was legit, probably the one sourced in that big article. It says a lot if as a trusted organization that you have to defraud your bases trust in you lying about who is supposedly proofing such things as legit.

[Rickstilwell1]

Someone in the USA should start a competitor grading service for video games and sell their graded games for what they are actually worth and make the VGA look stupid.

[JSoup]

Someone in the USA should start a competitor grading service for video games and sell their graded games for what they are actually worth and make the VGA look stupid.

It was suggested at least once that this might be the business model to get DP back on it's feet.

[Gentlegamer]

What a bunch of slimy garbage.

The only positive thing I've seen of this is that guy at NA with his VGA graded and slabbed trashed out, beat up copy of Super Mario Bros. That at least makes me chuckle.

http://nintendoagemedia.com/users/271/photobucket/4AAF21A0-B366-06F6-D6A1858D975A9B2F.jpg

Oh yeah, and the graded cereal.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/michael01990/IMG_0734_zpse676c7a8.jpg

[Doonzmore]

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that cereal. Never ate it myself. Cool box though.

Reminds me of the unopened Batman (1989) cereal I saw at an antique store. It's still shrink wrapped with the free cup. Maybe I should buy it and have it graded too. *rolls eyes*

[Bojay1997]

Someone in the USA should start a competitor grading service for video games and sell their graded games for what they are actually worth and make the VGA look stupid.

Creating yet another grading service would be stupid IMHO. It would just support the idea that somehow this is something collectors need.

[badinsults]

Someone in the USA should start a competitor grading service for video games and sell their graded games for what they are actually worth and make the VGA look stupid.

But that is the thing, VGA already fills the niche, and a competitor is not needed. We have already seen that VGA does not offer a guarantee that the product is legitimate, nor do they clearly state their validation process. It is all smoke and mirrors. The people who are using the VGA service clearly don't care about this. They are only interested in having their item in a hard plastic case, with a number attached to it. The higher the number, the more the customer can brag about it, which I feel is the only reason to justify grading a game in the first place. If someone truly cares about preservation, they take the shrinkwrap off, as it can potentially damage the game as the plastic degrades.

I am still not convinced that grading a game actually significantly increases the price of games in general, after the grading fees are taken into account. Look at the sold listings of VGA on Ebay, there are maybe 20 listings that sold for over $500, and every single one of those titles would garner a high price anyways (mostly Mario and Zelda titles).

[Richter Belmount]

I guess I can send my sealed hydlide nes to vga and will be actually worth something for a change.

[Tanooki]

There is another VGA copycat that got heavy traffic exposure on ebay, but it was also one that got started up by the same guy selling the goods initially on ebay to help puff up the value of his sales. Others did start to use it a bit I noticed only because of all the anger and complaining over at NA that someone would copy VGA and then do it to promote their own crap which is a huge red flag.

Now this guy still sells stuff they've graded to sell so that hasn't changed.
http://www.vgquality.com/

ebay user name was rpgarcana, now it is video_game_quality.

They have a gold scale for sealed and silver scale for unsealed open games that are supposedly unused (equals vga's qualified grade.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Final-Fantasy-NES-RPG-Collectors-Condition-100-Silver-Grade-Open-New-/221480878287?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item33914a00cf

So there are at least 2 of these graders on the market. Both have the same shady tactics in general, though at least the VGD guy at least tries to be more visually honest to the public by displaying what is used to grade the game from 100 down to 0 and how much they take off for each infraction.
Gold -- http://www.vgquality.com/gold.asp
Silver -- http://www.vgquality.com/silver.asp

[Nesmaster]

I don't need a third party to tell me an arbitrary number on a 20+ year old game. Raw sealed collecting of the few I care to own is good enough for me.

I do see the value in their acrylic cases though, and I wish I could get their cases they use to grade N64 controllers for my M2000, but with a sliding panel and not sealed forever. The graded stuff adds a bit too much bulk.

I own a few VGA'd games, but it's a long and stupid story. I'd sell them if I could replace them with raw copies...

It's a great scheme if you sell the stuff though, a bit redundant and wasteful IMO if you're collecting. But how else can you get $900 for a sealed SMB3? Only with a little gold sticker that says "90".

I have respect for the collector who decides that this is for them, do what makes you happy. Your money, your game.

[Tanooki]

I don't either and I find the entire practice fairly asinine, especially with the blind allegiance to VGA. Even the shady outfit which I quoted in my last post at least puts their standards out there. To trust an entirely unaccountable source you pay good money to rate a game and stick it in a non-removable case (short of smashing it) that can't even keep their own grades consistent is good enough reason not to.

The thing is you nailed it, it's a great scheme to get other like minded types to pay notably more than the game is worth and they're doing it off an entirely false and unbacked promise. Either way though it's whatever someone wants to do with their dough and if they're happy throwing money at it to feel safe, that's cool and if not, that's cool too. I for one have a very high quality copy of Metroid (yellow re-release) for NES and I just shadowboxed it and hung it on the wall as I love the art. I was told to get it graded because of how they felt it would rate, but it just wasn't for me.

[Nesmaster]

The part where VGA lost any sort of credibility with me, is that if you don't agree with the grade you can send it in to have another look over. I've seen "resubmissions" get scored higher the second time. If they have to second guess what they do because I might not agree with the number I paid them to spit out the first time, why should I believe them the second time? Because it's really only going to matter to the reseller. Silver and gold is often the difference between 3 and 4 figures. I've had (have) 85, 85+, and 90 grades, and they all look fine to me. But as a reseller, the difference appears to often be hundreds. That would be your incentive to question them.

For me though, it's about having the game in an unused/new state. Not the number someone came up with based on god knows what sticker is on the case, and if I can now sell a $300 game for $900.

Buying raw allows me to do that much cheaper.

[Tanooki]

That has always been my primary issue with them, credibility, and your point I've used a lot at other sites that people there would resubmit games until they got the grade they felt they were owed on it like they knew better. The only point to keep throwing the same pile of cash at it is cash value to get out of it. I agree on your idea of buying raw, it's what I did with Metroid. I don't even care for sealed games but I didn't see the harm since I have my original gray one with the book still too. :)

[Nesmaster]

Buying some titles sealed is almost more nostalgic than playing the game to me. My first impression of a given game would be seeing the box hanging in the store, and buying a new copy takes me back to those memories.

Grading games just boils down to too many people/too much money in the hobby.