It begins.... Video game grading

[TonyTheTiger]

this is an example of what im talking about. this guy has more items, just like it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200282730063&_trksid=p2761.l1259

And I'm convinced that many of these are shill auctions. They put up a graded game for an absurd price and a shill buys it. Then that shill flips it on Ebay and another shill buys that. This in turn convinces at least a few people that buying graded games is a lucrative endeavor and so at least a handful of people take the bait. The shills die down as more and more people with too much money on their hands get fooled into thinking this is worth it. Then the sad reality sets in: If enough people eventually start to believe it is worth it then it does become worth it. And that's how the grading organization makes its money because all of a sudden you have a large pool of potential buyers who are now unwilling to pay top dollar for anything not graded and so people who have copies they want to sell have no choice but to pay the fee and get the grade. It's a hell of a scheme they got going and it's worked before with countless other commodities.

[gum_drops]

It's a hell of a scheme they got going and it's worked before with countless other commodities.

Case (http://cgi.ebay.com/UNCANNY-X-MEN-114-CGC-8-5-WHITE-Pages-BYRNE-PHOENIX_W0QQitemZ290279345273QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33 826QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) and Point (http://cgi.ebay.com/X-Men-114-9-8-CGC-Highest-Graded-white-pages-RARE_W0QQitemZ330289431693QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33826 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

At least with comic collecting CGC serves the invaluable service of doing a restoration check, especially on pricey comics. A lot of people buy slabbed comics just for that reason and then remove them for the grading slab.

[Chainclaw]

Case (http://cgi.ebay.com/UNCANNY-X-MEN-114-CGC-8-5-WHITE-Pages-BYRNE-PHOENIX_W0QQitemZ290279345273QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33 826QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) and Point (http://cgi.ebay.com/X-Men-114-9-8-CGC-Highest-Graded-white-pages-RARE_W0QQitemZ330289431693QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33826 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

At least with comic collecting CGC serves the invaluable service of doing a restoration check, especially on pricey comics. A lot of people buy slabbed comics just for that reason and then remove them for the grading slab.

The worst part of that is "I have worked at CGC as their PRIMARY GRADER."

[Porksta]

My mom does ebay for an antique store. They have decided to no longer put comic books up for auction since they apparently can't accurately describe them. They listed a few and some people got upset because they had bent corners or what not and so weren't in "great" shape or whatever.

[murdoc rose]

this has been going on in other hobbies for a bit longer and its something were going to sort of have to deal with. However unlike the other hobbies only sealed games are really good for grading. Its not like there will ever be a big wave to grade loose 2600 games. also because games are meant to be played and not locked in plastic there will be not be the movement we've seen in sports cards

[PapaStu]

I've merged 'Grading games wtf?' with this thread. We've gone down this road before, so check back over the older pages to see what we thought about this 6 months ago.

This can also get ugly as seen on DP! (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107263) so if you start to see diverging ideals and ground isn't being given, go take a walk to get some air cause I don't want that to happen again.

[Gameguy]

Its not like there will ever be a big wave to grade loose 2600 games. also because games are meant to be played and not locked in plastic there will be not be the movement we've seen in sports cards
Why are people grading comic books then? I used to really be into comic books but I've always enjoyed reading them and seeing the artwork. I don't understand why people have them sealed away in plastic and never handle them(I know older comics are fragile but you can still enjoy them occasionally). It's like sealing away a painting and never looking at it because you're worried all light could damage it.

I get keeping sealed games sealed, that's how they can be a new copy. :)

[zeldas_nexus]

OK PEOPLE I HAD THE BALLS TO ACTUALLY WRITE THIS TO THE SO CALLED VGA I THINK I ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTIONS FOR US ALL... ILL POST THE RESPONCE WHEN I GET IT.


Hello,

I am the owner of d&d game world located in york, pa. i have a few questions as a collector, video game store owner. i would like to have a few things answered. we on a forum are wondering these things...

1. how many years experiance do you have a video games. how do you get your resources on the value of video games and how well do you know the value of video games?

2. where did you get the "autherity" to be a game grader and under what juradiction?

3. you claim your location of where the work is done. why hide? if someone is sending you a game that is worth 5 grand they are gonna wanna know where its gonna be sent.

4. why are your grading services so exspensive? i can do the exact same job for less.

i would personally like to know how u grade your work, what your methods are and how your an "expert" you offer no public knowledge on your services and how its rendered. i been a collectors for 25 years. a store owner of 3 stores for now 3 1/2 years and im still learning.

your shipping prices are rediculous as well as your forms.. YOUR suppose to be the grader why i asking us what we think its worth? i am looking forward to your answers.

[zektor]

OK PEOPLE I HAD THE BALLS TO ACTUALLY WRITE THIS TO THE SO CALLED VGA I THINK I ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTIONS FOR US ALL... ILL POST THE RESPONCE WHEN I GET IT.


Hello,

I am the owner of d&d game world located in york, pa. i have a few questions as a collector, video game store owner. i would like to have a few things answered. we on a forum are wondering these things...

1. how many years experiance do you have a video games. how do you get your resources on the value of video games and how well do you know the value of video games?

2. where did you get the "autherity" to be a game grader and under what juradiction?

3. you claim your location of where the work is done. why hide? if someone is sending you a game that is worth 5 grand they are gonna wanna know where its gonna be sent.

4. why are your grading services so exspensive? i can do the exact same job for less.

i would personally like to know how u grade your work, what your methods are and how your an "expert" you offer no public knowledge on your services and how its rendered. i been a collectors for 25 years. a store owner of 3 stores for now 3 1/2 years and im still learning.

your shipping prices are rediculous as well as your forms.. YOUR suppose to be the grader why i asking us what we think its worth? i am looking forward to your answers.

Good questions, but I SINCERELY hope that you performed a spell check before sending these over....to convey professionalism you know :)

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

The worst part of that is "I have worked at CGC as their PRIMARY GRADER."

Before you mock someone or something, make sure you have all your facts straight.

That Ebay member is Steve Borock, and he REALLY WAS the former CEO of CGC. He's well known and well respected within the comic community, and his Ebay ID is no secret. He was a dealer for years before joining CGC, and he resigned several months ago because he missed dealing. As CEO, he was contractually obligated NOT to buy, sell or trade comics, not even for his own collection. I know him personally and he's as "stand-up" as they come.

Get your facts BEFORE you attempt to slander someone.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

Case (http://cgi.ebay.com/UNCANNY-X-MEN-114-CGC-8-5-WHITE-Pages-BYRNE-PHOENIX_W0QQitemZ290279345273QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33 826QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) and Point (http://cgi.ebay.com/X-Men-114-9-8-CGC-Highest-Graded-white-pages-RARE_W0QQitemZ330289431693QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33826 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

At least with comic collecting CGC serves the invaluable service of doing a restoration check, especially on pricey comics. A lot of people buy slabbed comics just for that reason and then remove them for the grading slab.

Why are you guys bringing CGC price disparities into this, when you obviously have NO CLUE about the hobby? If you don't like game grading, that's fine, keep this about games. You guys would get pretty ticked if someone on some other message board spouting off a bunch of horse crap about game collecting, so why are you doing that here with comics?

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

Why are people grading comic books then? I used to really be into comic books but I've always enjoyed reading them and seeing the artwork. I don't understand why people have them sealed away in plastic and never handle them(I know older comics are fragile but you can still enjoy them occasionally). It's like sealing away a painting and never looking at it because you're worried all light could damage it.

I get keeping sealed games sealed, that's how they can be a new copy. :)

There is a lot of money involved with vintage comics and a lot of criminals as a result. Undisclosed restoration is a huge issue, and thieves have been making countless thousands of dollars over the years manipulating books to get higher prices. CGC has created a much safer environment for those who collect high end comics, and books now trade in the 6 figures as a result.

Comics are a much more established hobby, especially on the high end of the spectrum, and shouldn't really be used as a comparison in the context of sealed games.

[The 1 2 P]

I got out of comics right around the time the CGC became a big presence. I have thousands of comics(my favorites are independents like Grendel, Shi, Faust but I have a fair share of Marvel and DC titles too) and even use to go to comic book conventions to find rare books. Although I've been out for a few years, I definitely miss it and plan to start colecting again one day. But when I do I'd definitely leave the graded stuff alone. It's a nice utility to have but their prices are way too high for me, even for their modern day(last 10 years) stuff.

Back on topic, much like I won't be purchasing graded comics, I definitely won't be purchasing any graded games either. However, I've always been curious to atleast have one of my games(or comics) get graded. As a collector I know condition well but I'm curious as to how another persons point of view would be.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

Video games are NOT a good investment, and never have been. If you're worried about losing some imaginary money because of fluctuations in the market, then I suggest you find a better use for your money.

--Zero

Not necessarily true. You can't label an item as a "good or bad investment"; what makes something a good investment is the price point at which it was purchased. Someone who bought brand new PS1 RPG's from clearance bins for $10 each made a good "investment", irrespective of the fact that games tend to depreciate.

That being said, I'm not advocating games as an investment vehicle, I'm merely stating that any commodity can be a good investment at the right price.

[TonyTheTiger]

There is a lot of money involved with vintage comics and a lot of criminals as a result. Undisclosed restoration is a huge issue, and thieves have been making countless thousands of dollars over the years manipulating books to get higher prices. CGC has created a much safer environment for those who collect high end comics, and books now trade in the 6 figures as a result.

Here's my question though. Why is it safer? Is it safer in fact or just safer in appearance?

There are people out there who reseal video games and yet most of the time people seem to spot them without the aid of a third party service. At the same time, should someone be capable enough to mimic a factory seal flawlessly (it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery, after all) then that would fool amateurs and experts alike regardless of whether or not those experts are operating a grading service. All that would mean is now this fraudulent game gets certified as "A-ok." I already conceded that comics are different enough to the point where a grading service is less questionable but what ends up happening is that when a service totes itself as the absolute authority you can trust, should even one phony make it through and get certified then that calls into question the usefulness of the entire operation. If I can get scammed or do the scamming without you then why should I pay you the fee for a grade?

I don't know diddly about coins or baseball cards but people who do seem "in the know" have informed me that coin collectors like to buy low grade coins and then resubmit them for grading in hopes of scoring a higher number. That calls into question the numbering system itself and whether or not there's at least a little bit of arbitrary subjectivity involved. And, apparently, somebody tested the so-called experts by presenting them with a few baseball cards and it turns out the fraudulent ones got graded just the same as the real ones.

The take away from all of this (at least for me) is that people like the grading service because it gives them peace of mind regardless of whether or not there are any real benefits. Someone with an ungraded game/coin/comic/toy/card/etc. is worried that it might be a fake. Now if you slab it and give it a number then even if it is a fake in reality, in practice it isn't because everyone will accept it as legit. If everyone accepts it as legit then it may as well be legit because there won't be any real consequences as a result of the fraud.

[nintendoeats]

heres the thing, at least for me. I buy video games primarily so that I can play them. Yes, I have scads of A2600 games that I can't play for lack of a console (hoping to get one for christmas). I also haven't played all of my genesis, or SNEs games. but the point is that, unlike Baseball cards or coins, games serve a functional purpose. Even comic books and records can be fairly faithfully and easily reproduced, but for most people the easiest way to play an SNES game is get an SNES and a cart. Emulation denies you the TV and controller of course, plus being obstensively illegal.

What I'm getting at here is that gaming is a hobby built on love of playing rather than collecting. For that reason, it will have a certain amount of immunity from these things. If I get my copy of mega man rated, then I won't e able to play it anymore will I? screw that, I'd rather just have the damned game. Obvously I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience when people want an older game its because they want to play it, not shove it in a box.

[otoko]

Obvously I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience when people want an older game its because they want to play it, not shove it in a box.

Here! Here! Personally, the only reason I want my games in a protective box is if I'm storing it between plays.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Great! I completely forgotten about this crap until it got bumped. Thanks a lot, I owe you a shin kick. :p

[Chainclaw]

Before you mock someone or something, make sure you have all your facts straight.

That Ebay member is Steve Borock, and he REALLY WAS the former CEO of CGC. He's well known and well respected within the comic community, and his Ebay ID is no secret. He was a dealer for years before joining CGC, and he resigned several months ago because he missed dealing. As CEO, he was contractually obligated NOT to buy, sell or trade comics, not even for his own collection. I know him personally and he's as "stand-up" as they come.

Get your facts BEFORE you attempt to slander someone.

It's really shady if someone who has ever been associated with the grading process in a hobby is selling graded items.

[SegaAges]

TonytheTiger and a few others had some good points.

My case in point is this: I own comic books. I have no clue what they are worth, so I am going to act as if they are all worthless and fun to read. Seriously. Now on to the subject of games.

I know the quality of games, the rarity of games, how much I paid for a game compared to how much it should go for. I have not been collecting for 25 years like some of you, but I have been around as a collector for about 5 years or so (when I started learning more about the collecting aspect of it instead of my own personal pack rat aspect of it).

I honestly trust my own word for some stuff above other people.

Now if the grading system is based off of the condition of the game and not the rarity, than anybody can look at a game and tell you if it is scuffed.

Here is an example: N-Gage. While I am not the absolute expert in it, I do know which US games are rare, I know which ones are not rare, but simply hard to find, variants, press kits, etc. I know alot. No expert, but very knowledgable.

So you are telling me that they know more than me? They might. How do they know more about it?

I simply don't trust it for the reason that I have no clue what experience they have in this scene.

It has nothing to do with an underground thing going mainstream. Gaming is progressively becoming more and more mainstream, and it is pretty damn mainstream right now. Collecting, not so much, but then again, up until I was informed that I was a collector and not a pack rat, I assumed i was just a pack rat for games (which I also learned that many times it is pretty much the same exact thing).

As long as there is not a super high jump in prices, then I could care less what others do. I am not paying for somebody else to grade my games when I can do it myself. I know many of us could grade our own games, but not everybody does. Some people get a game from goodwill and want to know what it is worth and don't have connections like DP like we do.

I am against all the fees and crap for it, but there are fees for everything. I say if it is expensive, well your game better be worth it, cuz you will feel dumb if you send in a minty Super Mario Bros that gets a good grade and that is it.

You do have to think though, a good grade does not automatically mean you got yourself a $2,000 game.

As for reseals, will the people actually take the seal off to do a full inspection? It actually makes sense to do that. A resealed game could easily get an insane score if they don't break that seal when there are blobkbuster stickers on the cart.

That is what separates other collecting things with games. Games have multiple things to inspect with them, so going based off of a sealed game is dumb. What if the boxed is slightly crushed by the cart and instructions are absolutely minty and vise versa. A perfect box and a crappy instruction manual and blockbuster stickers on the cart. If these are all sealed, do they get the same grading?

Coins. You inspect the coin, of course. Comic books. Get yourself some white gloves and tweezers or whatever you use to turn the pages and inspect it.

A sealed game? What do you inspect? That the seal is in tact. Do they know that some 3rd party companies seal games differently? They could mis mark something as a reseal, open it to inspect it because it was a reseal, but in actuality, it was a 3rd party that sealed it differently. You lose grading from not enough knowledge of how they are sealed.

In order to inspect, you need to pretty much be Yuji Naka or Miyamoto or some shit just to know enough about the industry to inspect. You have to know how companies seal games, the number of games released as that seal, the variants of that game, the conidition possible for unsealed, the coniditions possible for sealed, the ability to spot a reseal, the ability to tell is it is not a reseal, the ability to check the cart, instructions, inserts and box.

Here is an awesome example: I got a bunch of games from the shawn (thanks again), and I got a resealed Superman for NES. This thing is about as minty as they come. No instructions in this though. If I were to send this in (taking off the no instructions sticker on the shrinkwrap), how would they know the difference, since this thing is mad crazy minty. Yes, I opened it to look at the condition of the cart, but how else would I know the cart was nice and minty? How would they know this is not complete? I personally only know how N-Gage games are sealed, so I personally have no way of telling if something is a reseal.

You are telling me these inspector's are that knowledgable?

I am not throwing blows, I am simply throwing out my personal opinion and also how it would be extremely hard to get inspector's that knowledgable.

I say let them inspect though. Really. I am not sending my games in, so it won't matter to me as long as prices don't jump up. I will tell you this, if I buy a common game in one of those scored boxes, I am so opening it anyway.

[Chainclaw]

While most people can agree that grading sealed games is BS, what about open and complete?

I could see a market existing for that.

[dcx516]

Going back to my earlier post is there a such thing as a rare black label super mario sunshine?

[bunnyboy]

than anybody can look at a game and tell you if it is scuffed

If you are looking for very high condition games and don't have them in hand, then what people tell you and the low quality ebay pictures are never enough to tell the real condition. Only if you already have the game can you rely on your own inspection abilities. By then it is likely too late.

You would probably pay more for a game from someone you trust because you know the description is accurate. Grading is the same, but then you don't have to trust the seller if you trust the grader, who has no financial incentive.



Here is an example: N-Gage. While I am not the absolute expert in it, I do know which US games are rare, I know which ones are not rare, but simply hard to find, variants, press kits, etc. I know alot. No expert, but very knowledgable.

So you are telling me that they know more than me? They might. How do they know more about it?

I simply don't trust it for the reason that I have no clue what experience they have in this scene.

They don't have to know anything about the rarity, because they aren't giving it a value or rarity. They are only giving it a condition number. Other than the type of seal they don't even care what it is. They need absolutely zero experience with the actual video game inside, and have years of experience with shrink wrap and cardboard boxes from their other businesses.

[tmlfan]

1. how many years experiance do you have a video games. how do you get your resources on the value of video games and how well do you know the value of video games?



What does the first part even mean? and where does VGA claim to know values, or set the value of a game? From what I understand they are a grading service not price guide service



3. you claim your location of where the work is done. why hide? if someone is sending you a game that is worth 5 grand they are gonna wanna know where its gonna be sent.



Am I missing something? They claim the location doesnt that mean they are not hiding?



4. why are your grading services so exspensive? i can do the exact same job for less.



Do you really know that for sure? Seems like a silly claim if you havent found out what the costs are to pay workers to grade games, the cost of the encasing of the games, toys etc. I know you can assign a grade to something for less, but if you scribble it on a piece of paper and give that to me as your "grade" I dont think its the same thing, and I would rather pay them to do it then you...honestly.


I hope you didnt send them what you posted here it doesnt seem to well thought out

[TonyTheTiger]

Just so everybody knows, this shouldn't turn into a "not on my turf" argument. This shouldn't be about video games, per se. We can't come in and say "well, this is grading gone too far because this is our precious hobby!" Frankly, I just don't like grading much period because of the lack of quality control and accountability so that is what my stance is. I'd feel just the same way if this were a topic about grading 8-track tapes.

[Porksta]

So VGA doesn't figure the values of games. Yet they want you to put an approximate value for grading tier purposes. What happens if you value all of your games at $1? What are they going to do?

[tmlfan]

So VGA doesn't figure the values of games. Yet they want you to put an approximate value for grading tier purposes. What happens if you value all of your games at $1? What are they going to do?

Not really sure, have to ask someone who has sent a game into them. I have sent in a toy to get graded, and I had to select a tier based on the toy because the size of the box makes a difference in how much it costs to get the case made, as for me putting a price on it I believe that was only for insured value when they return ship it to you. But games must be different because they are all basically the same size. Now when I sent the Toy in, I put a value of $250 on it mainly because thats what someone offered me for it and thats how it was sent back to me. When i got it back I had an immediate offer of $800 (this was 2 years ago). I still have it, dont intend to sell it but having a high price item graded obviously makes a difference to someone as its the same item just graded.

[Chainclaw]

Just so everybody knows, this shouldn't turn into a "not on my turf" argument. This shouldn't be about video games, per se. We can't come in and say "well, this is grading gone too far because this is our precious hobby!" Frankly, I just don't like grading much period because of the lack of quality control and accountability so that is what my stance is. I'd feel just the same way if this were a topic about grading 8-track tapes.

It shouldn't. Grading something like coins or comic books is completely different than grading sealed games. Most of the arguments against grading sealed games do not make sense against grading comic books. If you wrap the cover of the first issue of X-Men around the latest issue of X-Men, the grading company will know.

If the new game market is lucrative enough, people can create reseals that are impossible to identify, especially if they use the machines that sealed the games originally.

I can see the value of grading non-sealed things. To use the Kizuna Encounter example, if you had a complete, but not sealed (were NEO games even ever sealed?) copy slabbed by a reputable, trustworthy service, it would make potential buyers a lot more confident. Someone spending $10,000 on the game probably is probably going to play a copy, and not the original.

Very few games actually approach the value and rarity of a service like this to offer any sort of real value. Do any coin collectors slab bicentennial quarters? Do card collectors bother to slab $150 Magic cards?

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't think this is going to OMGWTFBBQ destroy the hobby or anything of the sort. But the whole concept of paying a third party so that third party can tell you something you already know (your item is in very good condition) and make it seem like these slabs are somehow important enough to bump the value of the item rubs me the wrong way. That two identical items of identical quality could be measured in value so differently because some third party put it in plastic and stuck a fancy sticker on it just sounds so asinine to me.

But the whole problem with people not knowing what cartridge is really inside that shrinkwrapped box is not limited to video games. Like I said before, coins get resubmitted and get higher ratings than they did before. Fraudulent baseball cards got graded, too. That tells me that there's nothing "special" about video games. All it says is that it's a foolish system to put your faith into. You can get scammed on Ebay just the same whether or not something is slabbed. If a fraud is easy to spot then the experts at VGA or any other agency aren't going to let it slip by but, of course, neither is the average buyer. If a fraud is extremely difficult to spot then it'll fool the average buyer as well as the experts at the agencies. So if the agencies are really just as skilled and flawed as the reasonably diligent consumer, they are providing a useless service.

All the slab does is make you feel more confident that you didn't get scammed. I have a sneaking suspicion that if we did an empirical test, we'll find that all slabbing does is make people feel better. It doesn't actually make things better. The reason I concede for comics is because it is far easier to trust a third party to confirm the inside pages and assign a number than to request clear definitive photographic evidence of every single page inside. I'm willing to concede that convenience because even a halfwit can tell if page 14 has a tear or coffee stain. Now that doesn't mean the comic graded 8.9 is always going to be 8.9. I would bet that the difference between 8.9 and 9.0 is effectively a subjective guesstimate, hence the whole "arbitrary" thing.

Besides, with all the talk of fraudulent reseals and comic restorations, I wonder how many people are capable of replicating the slabs themselves. It probably isn't easy but certainly not impossible.

[boatofcar]

All the slab does is make you feel more confident that you didn't get scammed. I have a sneaking suspicion that if we did an empirical test, we'll find that all slabbing does is make people feel better. It doesn't actually make things better.

I think that's pretty obvious, and is true for all slabbed collectibles. Nobody wants to get scammed, and people want to get the most money out of their collectible should they decide to sell. Slabbing provides a means to both of these ends.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

Here's my question though. Why is it safer? Is it safer in fact or just safer in appearance?

There are people out there who reseal video games and yet most of the time people seem to spot them without the aid of a third party service. At the same time, should someone be capable enough to mimic a factory seal flawlessly (it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery, after all) then that would fool amateurs and experts alike regardless of whether or not those experts are operating a grading service. All that would mean is now this fraudulent game gets certified as "A-ok." I already conceded that comics are different enough to the point where a grading service is less questionable but what ends up happening is that when a service totes itself as the absolute authority you can trust, should even one phony make it through and get certified then that calls into question the usefulness of the entire operation. If I can get scammed or do the scamming without you then why should I pay you the fee for a grade?

I don't know diddly about coins or baseball cards but people who do seem "in the know" have informed me that coin collectors like to buy low grade coins and then resubmit them for grading in hopes of scoring a higher number. That calls into question the numbering system itself and whether or not there's at least a little bit of arbitrary subjectivity involved. And, apparently, somebody tested the so-called experts by presenting them with a few baseball cards and it turns out the fraudulent ones got graded just the same as the real ones.

The take away from all of this (at least for me) is that people like the grading service because it gives them peace of mind regardless of whether or not there are any real benefits. Someone with an ungraded game/coin/comic/toy/card/etc. is worried that it might be a fake. Now if you slab it and give it a number then even if it is a fake in reality, in practice it isn't because everyone will accept it as legit. If everyone accepts it as legit then it may as well be legit because there won't be any real consequences as a result of the fraud.

In the case of CGC specifically, it's safer in fact, and I can say that having seen CGC's facilities first hand. They have real experts and employ sophisticated technology and methods for restoration detection and authentication.

As far as sealed games go. you have a point, especially considering that the AFA (or VGA) hasn't demonstrated that they're in possession of any kind of specialized knowledge in the area of sealed games.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

It's really shady if someone who has ever been associated with the grading process in a hobby is selling graded items.

But again, you're saying this without any first hand experiences with either CGC as a company, or its (former) CEO, nor do you have any knowledge of CGC's policies or procedures. It's a large company, they literally have a warehouse of backlogged submissions, and the books are processed with bar code labels so that the graders have no way of knowing whose book their grading at any given time.

You can't make slanderous accusations without firsthand knowledge or proof.

[DiabolicalAdvocate]

It shouldn't. Grading something like coins or comic books is completely different than grading sealed games. Most of the arguments against grading sealed games do not make sense against grading comic books. If you wrap the cover of the first issue of X-Men around the latest issue of X-Men, the grading company will know.



This I can agree with.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think that's pretty obvious, and is true for all slabbed collectibles. Nobody wants to get scammed, and people want to get the most money out of their collectible should they decide to sell. Slabbing provides a means to both of these ends.

But why should it? I realize this is a more abstract question than it probably should be but let's say there is an 80% chance this item I'm buying is legit and it is not slabbed. Now let's say that I instead decide to buy an identical version of that same item but this one is slabbed. Now, assuming there is still an 80% chance the item is legit, why should the slab matter? The additional "value" comes purely from an assumption (which may not be true) that this plastic case and sticker improves the chances I'm getting a legit item.

So what I'm paying extra money for is solely the psychological benefit of peace of mind regardless of the reality that the slabbed item I bought might fall into that 20%. It's like a phantom commodity. I'd associate the slabs with insurance because of the "peace of mind" aspect but at least with insurance if something does go wrong it comes in handy. If you find out, however, that your slabbed Mickey Mantle card is a fake who is going to make things right? I doubt the grading company is going to cut you a check because of a screw up on its end.


In the case of CGC specifically, it's safer in fact, and I can say that having seen CGC's facilities first hand. They have real experts and employ sophisticated technology and methods for restoration detection and authentication.

As far as sealed games go. you have a point, especially considering that the AFA (or VGA) hasn't demonstrated that they're in possession of any kind of specialized knowledge in the area of sealed games.

If these grading companies can prove that they are doing three things I will accept them as having some realistic benefit.

1) Prove that they have the skills of a reasonably well versed expert in spotting problems by actually demonstrating them in real double blind tests.

2) Prove that they use technology that a reasonably well versed expert cannot realistically use themselves. Again, proving the technology works in double blind tests.

3) Establish that the numerical grading right down to the tenths is not even remotely arbitrary. They have to prove that there is a measurable difference between an 8.6 and an 8.7 and, again, through double blind tests, prove that something that is graded 8.6 will continuously receive that same exact rating regardless of who the grader is.

Now maybe they've already done this and I just haven't seen it. But if they haven't then they need to.

And, again, if even one fake slips by that calls into question the entire operation. Why should I pay for a service that might screw me over by certifying a fake?

[Chainclaw]

The idea of slabbing is that it provides, in theory, an impartial view on the quality of an item, and creates a standard quality comparison for items.

Most people who list an item's condition on eBay don't list how they came to that conclusion, and even if they do, they offer no proof they are telling the truth. Lets say the item in question is a SNES game. One person might consider it mint condition because the game boots up, the shell of the cartridge has no blemishes, and the sticker is in great condition. Someone else might not consider the item mint until the cartridge has been opened up, the battery replaced, and the board inside of the cartridge cleaned. Someone else might consider the game no longer mint if the cartridge has ever been opened.

I think it's one of those "great in theory, awful in practice" sort of things.

Things that I'm sure end up falling apart in practice include preservation. I'm sure slabbing a comic book is probably one of the most reasonable solutions for preservation. Slabbing a video game is not going to keep batteries from leaking, or other damage that just happens from time. And what things like acti-plaque, and yellowing SNES systems? Very few people know why this happens, will slabbing a game / system prevent this?

[Octopod]

You cant read slabbed comics and you cant play slabbed games. That is enough of a reason for me to think its....stupid, for lack of a more fitting word.

[tmlfan]

You cant read slabbed comics and you cant play slabbed games. That is enough of a reason for me to think its....stupid, for lack of a more fitting word.

The comics and sealed games that are worth slabbing you are not going flip through the pages and read or tear off the cellophane and play (unless you have more money than brains) and if you want to read a comic that is worth thousands of $$ or play a game that you have sealed you can almost always find a way to play it somehow or read it without actually reading the original thing. The slabbing insures these cool items we had in our childhood stays around as long a possible and the grading gives a view of the condition for trading/selling purposes.

So I would say tearing open a valuable game to play is stupid also, but to each their own I guess

[Octopod]

Do you work for the grading company?

[tmlfan]

Do you work for the grading company?

No.

Do you buy sealed nes/snes games and open them to play?

[Octopod]

I buy sealed Genesis games to open and play.

[tmlfan]

I buy sealed Genesis games to open and play.

Which games have you opened and played?

[Octopod]

Nothing rare or worth money if that is your point. I dont buy sealed games unless I find them for fairly close to what they would cost anyway. Not many.

[tmlfan]

Nothing rare or worth money if that is your point. I dont buy sealed games unless I find them for fairly close to what they would cost anyway. Not many.

OK, so if you found an expensive/popular game sealed for $1, a game you always wanted to play would you open it and play it?

[Octopod]

Depending on what you mean by expensive I guess. But if it was worth what I consider to be expensive then probably not when I know I could trade it for several games instead.

Edit: Unless for some reason that was the only copy of the game that I thought would be available to me anytime soon. Then yes, I would open it if it was a game I wanted to play.

[Octopod]

Ok, well if you have a point to make that is for me in particular feel free to PM me. I work nights and I have 68 pages of war game rules to print out then im going to bed. I hate reading stuff that long on the computer...hurts my eyes.

[SegaAges]

Hmm, I was unaware that they just checked the condition. If that is the case, then there is nothing wrong with this service.

Anybody can check the quality of stuff, but I am sure these guys have been checking the condition of stuff for years.

I got concerned because I thought that they were putting rarity into the ratin, which is not the case.

As for buying sealed games that I like, hell yeah I would open it to play it.

Some people like have the sealed collection, and that is them. I like have an opened collection so that I can play every single game I get.

Another good example of stuff being sealed: I landed a copy of Mortal Kombat 3 for Game Gear Sealed. Very first thing I did when I got it was open it up and play it.

[TonyTheTiger]

Hmm, I was unaware that they just checked the condition. If that is the case, then there is nothing wrong with this service.

There still is if they don't do it right. Hence the coin resubmissions and fraudulent baseball cards getting graded.

[aaron7]

I think this is neat. Pending the cost I might send out some of my mintiest sealed games to be slabbed.

[Octopod]

Well, shit. If its that easy this is how ill get rich. I start a company slabbing this stuff.

http://www.acaeum.com/


:roll:

What else can get graded and slabbed?

[GarrettCRW]

Sealed food needs to be slabbed right now!

[zektor]

Which games have you opened and played?


I have done this. MUSHA was one. Any time I purchase a game that is sealed I OPEN it. I know many people may drop dead thinking that I am destroying some kind of history or something, but hell, games are meant to be played. I do not hunt down sealed copies to open or anything, but if it is all I am able to acquire at the moment I am looking and I am looking to play the game, hell yeah it will be opened. And, while I am at it, fuck grading, graders, and the money pit of hell that spawned them.

[Octopod]

Just today i got a sealed game in the mail that i opened. Subterrainia...lol

[TonyTheTiger]

Sealed food needs to be slabbed right now!

I'm totally sending in a box of Frankenberry.

[Chainclaw]

You guys aren't using good examples here. If you're opening a sealed game you spent less than a couple hundred dollars on, it's no big deal. I doubt you'll open a sealed game if you spent a couple thousand dollars on it, especially if it was available unsealed for a tenth the price.

[The Shawn]

I'm totally sending in a box of Frankenberry.

Frig that! I'm sending in my mother in law.

Slab away baby!

[TonyTheTiger]

You guys aren't using good examples here. If you're opening a sealed game you spent less than a couple hundred dollars on, it's no big deal. I doubt you'll open a sealed game if you spent a couple thousand dollars on it, especially if it was available unsealed for a tenth the price.

That's true. How many people think "I want Chrono Trigger" and proceed to buy a sealed one off Ebay for a grand and tear it open instead of buying a used copy for $50-$100? Nobody who's paying $1000 for a sealed Chrono Trigger is going to open that thing.

[Octopod]

Well, in my mind sealed game collecting is stupid so i guess the grade and slab thing fits well with it. Maybe this will drive down the cost of unsealed games. They will just be cast offs collectors no longer want. Like a "reader" grade comic. Except comics dont sometimes have batterys that are starting to leak inside them like sealed games...

I dont think though that the Chrono Trigger scenario is going to be the most common one. People pull the nicest comic out of the stack at the comic store and send it in to get graded. Just released comics. And the value goes up automatically. Cause a 9.8 is soooo much nicer than a 9.2 and an 8 is just reader garbage. Its like its not really about comics anymore. Its just about trying to get a high grade to make a profit. Is that what you really want? Well i will continue to collect player garbage for the most part. I play games, i dont imprison them in a hard plastic cell so other people can ooh and ahh at a stupid number some other person stuck on there.

[Chainclaw]

Well, in my mind sealed game collecting is stupid so i guess the grade and slab thing fits well with it. Maybe this will drive down the cost of unsealed games. They will just be cast offs collectors no longer want. Like a "reader" grade comic. Except comics dont sometimes have batterys that are starting to leak inside them like sealed games...

I dont think though that the Chrono Trigger scenario is going to be the most common one. People pull the nicest comic out of the stack at the comic store and send it in to get graded. Just released comics. And the value goes up automatically. Cause a 9.8 is soooo much nicer than a 9.2 and an 8 is just reader garbage. Its like its not really about comics anymore. Its just about trying to get a high grade to make a profit. Is that what you really want? Well i will continue to collect player garbage for the most part. I play games, i dont imprison them in a hard plastic cell so other people can ooh and ahh at a stupid number some other person stuck on there.

You do realize that people who collect sealed games can actually also buy loose copies of the games, or just pirate a second copy? If you buy a sealed Chrono Trigger, it's not like you can never play the game again in any form.

[Gameguy]

Well, in my mind sealed game collecting is stupid so i guess the grade and slab thing fits well with it. Maybe this will drive down the cost of unsealed games. They will just be cast offs collectors no longer want. Like a "reader" grade comic. Except comics dont sometimes have batterys that are starting to leak inside them like sealed games...

I dont think though that the Chrono Trigger scenario is going to be the most common one. People pull the nicest comic out of the stack at the comic store and send it in to get graded. Just released comics. And the value goes up automatically. Cause a 9.8 is soooo much nicer than a 9.2 and an 8 is just reader garbage. Its like its not really about comics anymore. Its just about trying to get a high grade to make a profit. Is that what you really want? Well i will continue to collect player garbage for the most part. I play games, i dont imprison them in a hard plastic cell so other people can ooh and ahh at a stupid number some other person stuck on there.


Even if the batteries leak what would it matter? It's not like the game will be played, it's still new untouched.

Comics degrade over time, the paper yellows and oxidizes and pages start to flake off. They won't hold up over time, the same way batteries corrode.

I'm not supporting grading though, I can't see why anybody would spend $1000 for a sealed Chrono Trigger, it's not like it's a rare game or anything.

[tmlfan]

Even if the batteries leak what would it matter? It's not like the game will be played, it's still new untouched.

Comics degrade over time, the paper yellows and oxidizes and pages start to flake off. They won't hold up over time, the same way batteries corrode.

I'm not supporting grading though, I can't see why anybody would spend $1000 for a sealed Chrono Trigger, it's not like it's a rare game or anything.

I was thinking the same, if the battery leaks how would you know. And cant the same thing happen to an opened game?

Well its obvious rarity doesn't always mean $$. With people paying that much for games that were made in the millions. But as long as there are more people who want a sealed chrono trigger than are available, the price will stay high.

What I dont get is the people calling sealed collecting/grading Stupid, I dont collect sealed games and dont have any graded, I doubt I would ever do it unless I stumbled on a expensive sealed game i guess. But its a form of our hobby, maybe its not for you but to act like the people who do are out of their mind idiots. their are people who like gerbils as pets (cool, you like gerbils), and their are people who like to have gerbils as pets and stick them in their ass, now I think thats messed up but if thats what you want then good for you. Its not my thing but I wont call you names for liking it

[cyberfluxor]

The funny thing though is although many of us call graded game and sealed collecting a poor choice in this industry there are tens or so millions of people out there that call game collecting or even classic/retro gaming as a whole a terrible hobby.

[Octopod]

Well if a sealed graded game has a battery leaking in it then the game may not be functional so how can it be mint. Why would it be possible for said game to have a high grade when in all likelyhood the game is crapped? Is the grade just for packaging? An opened game can have its battery changed out. At any rate, i guess it is none of my business what other people do so more power to you if this type of collecting intrest you.

[Gameguy]

Well if a sealed graded game has a battery leaking in it then the game may not be functional so how can it be mint. Why would it be possible for said game to have a high grade when in all likelyhood the game is crapped? Is the grade just for packaging? An opened game can have its battery changed out. At any rate, i guess it is none of my business what other people do so more power to you if this type of collecting intrest you.
That's like asking if museum pieces from the middle ages are still fully functional, they're pretty much just on display for people to look at behind a display case/velvet rope. They're too fragile to still use(at least regularly). Plus there are collectors that collect older food products, I don't think it matters if the food is still edible. Having an unused box of cereal from the 60's-'80s is cool enough.

All that matters for a sealed game is;
1) Is it new/unused/untouched?
2) Does the part that's viewable look good?
3) If it's good, how good?

If someone had an older store display case full of sealed games I think it would look cool. Kind of like taking a trip back in time, to when stores actually had those games displayed like that in new condition. I can't afford to do that, I wouldn't spend that much money on sealed games, and I don't have the space to do it so I won't be doing this. It still would be cool though.

[Bratwurst]

Even if the batteries leak what would it matter? It's not like the game will be played, it's still new untouched.

Comics degrade over time, the paper yellows and oxidizes and pages start to flake off. They won't hold up over time, the same way batteries corrode.

There are books out there which are hundreds of years old from a period where archiving at the most meant sticking it on a bookshelf and leaving it at that.

I've seen battery acid turn the components of a contemporary laptop into powder. This isn't even considering the inherent longevity of a disc based game, the foil layer degrading, forming pinholes, warping, etc.

I would wager that someone who collects sealed software is not in it to play a guessing game of Schrodinger's cat, they're expecting the materials inside to remain unblemished because that's the point of buying something 'new.' Even assuming they were happy to remain ignorant, what happens when the cardboard packaging starts to deteriorate underneath its own shrinkwrap?

There is not a doubt in my mind that the electronic entertainment most people take for granted today will eventually be considered 'true' collectibles and it will be reasonable to expect a degree of care having been invested in keeping them pristine. However, they should be approached as one would consider a classic automobile, something more than a book with components more complex than staples, glue and paper, its internals always accessible in the event that it must be repaired or maintained to remain functional, the core identity of that item.

[Gameguy]

There are books out there which are hundreds of years old from a period where archiving at the most meant sticking it on a bookshelf and leaving it at that.
True, as paper production methods were quite different hundreds of years ago. Paper manufactured after around 1900 was cheaper, acidic, and more prone to breaking down over time. Most comics being collected today were made after 1900 and were printed on cheaper paper so they degrade much quicker than books hundreds of years old.

There was a TV special that talked about this happening but it was years ago and I don't remember what it was called, so just read this article on paper which talks about it briefly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper

[Bratwurst]

True, as paper production methods were quite different hundreds of years ago. Paper manufactured after around 1900 was cheaper, acidic, and more prone to breaking down over time. Most comics being collected today were made after 1900 and were printed on cheaper paper so they degrade much quicker than books hundreds of years old.

There was a TV special that talked about this happening but it was years ago and I don't remember what it was called, so just read this article on paper which talks about it briefly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper

While I agree with you, your source even points out that modern publishers are using acid-free materials and I doubt the comic industry would alienate its primary source of income (collectors) by even entertaining the thought of printing on paper that was not conducive to archiving.

My point is that your comparison of paper degradation is different from the complexity of trying to 'archive' electronic media, paper, even old, chemically volatile paper, can be kept stable (or fend off aging) by simply keeping it in appropriate temperatures and environments.

Of course everything eventually decomposes, that's a given.

[TonyTheTiger]

While I agree with you, your source even points out that modern publishers are using acid-free materials and I doubt the comic industry would alienate its primary source of income (collectors) by even entertaining the thought of printing on paper that was not conducive to archiving.

My point is that your comparison of paper degradation is different from the complexity of trying to 'archive' electronic media, paper, even old, chemically volatile paper, can be kept stable (or fend off aging) by simply keeping it in appropriate temperatures and environments.

Of course everything eventually decomposes, that's a given.

Are you kidding? It wasn't until very recently that comics began to be printed on that glossy paper. Most comics were printed on what was more or less newsprint. Newspapers that are even 10 years old have a bad habit of yellowing and add another two decades and it becomes incredibly brittle. I'd venture a guess that if you had a comic from the 40s sitting in front of you it would be nearly impossible to read in a normal fashion without causing some damage.

[nintendoeats]

their are people who like to have gerbils as pets and stick them in their ass, now I think thats messed up but if thats what you want then good for you. Its not my thing but I wont call you names for liking it

Um...animal rights abuser? So what your saying is that getting a game graded is an unethical and illegal practice?

[Octopod]

The comic book grading company also list the color of a comics pages on the outside of the slab. Interior condition is noted not just the condition of the cover.

[Octopod]

All that matters for a sealed game is;
1) Is it new/unused/untouched?
2) Does the part that's viewable look good?
3) If it's good, how good?



Says who? If i bought a sealed game there better damn well be a working game inside there. I dont buy trash in a pretty package. That is worth nothing.

[super nes]

Oh God (http://cgi.ebay.ca/SNES-Sealed-Castlevania-Dracula-X-1995-VGA-95_W0QQitemZ390016965601QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Vint age_Video_Games?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116)

[megasdkirby]

Oh God (http://cgi.ebay.ca/SNES-Sealed-Castlevania-Dracula-X-1995-VGA-95_W0QQitemZ390016965601QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Vint age_Video_Games?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116)

Ok, now I agree...the VGA thing is just plain dumb.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't have a problem with people putting stuff on Ebay for insane prices. We see that enough that it shouldn't bug us at all. What does bug me is that I'm certain these auctions are shills. A real auction at a stupid price just won't sell. A shill auction's purpose is to essentially trick people into thinking these items are actually worth that much so that "perfect storm" I mentioned a while back happens for the VGA.

[Rob2600]

Oh God (http://cgi.ebay.ca/SNES-Sealed-Castlevania-Dracula-X-1995-VGA-95_W0QQitemZ390016965601QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Vint age_Video_Games?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116)

$3,000 for Dracula X (SNES)? Come on.

Where did they come up with that value anyway?


I should start my own car grading company. I'll slab your car for $500 and then you can display it in your garage. Just don't open the plastic slab or else your car will be worthless.

[Gameguy]

Says who? If i bought a sealed game there better damn well be a working game inside there. I dont buy trash in a pretty package. That is worth nothing.
I'm refering to people that specifically collect factory sealed games, not people that buy a new game to open and play it. The only way to make sure a game(especially with a battery save) is still working is to play it. I doubt a sealed game collector would open the box as soon as they got it to test it out, as it wouldn't be sealed anymore. Does that make sense, that opening a game and testing it makes it used? That pretty much defeats the purpose of getting a sealed game, for a person that collects sealed games. I'm aware that most games were originally sealed when new and then opened at some point, and the person that opened it expected it to work or they'd return it to the store(that's true for any consumer product).

Most people assume that because something is new it means it's in perfect condition and working, but that's not always true. It's most likely that it would still be working fine but there's a chance that it won't(just like with used games).




Wasn't there someone here that posted an auction that made fun of grading? I know I posted links about it on another forum and someone said a DP member was behind it. I'll just copy what I posted on the other forum as I feel it's appropriate. :-D

VAG is determined to be the best and eventually the only (monopoly) video game grading company. We hope our professional team of graders and video game experts who will consistently grade all items on an ubiased and accurate scale will take us there.

We offer all collectors the opportunity to buy something at five times the price for the peace of mind that their game is in good condition based on our grading. Buyers also don't need to worry about the legitimacy of a factory seal or not because it's in a plastic case that will guarantee its value regardless, because most collectors won't even care or bother to pay attention.

We also offer a beatiful display bag for the protection of your games. Our patented, FDA approved, freezer grade Zip-Lock™ technology will protect your games from all environmental hazards. It features blue-shield plastic for UV light protection, double-zipper technology to lock out dangerous gases and chemical that have been known to damage games such as smug. Our bags however do not protect the games from itself, so the shrink wrap will further shrink over time and the acid in the game seal and box. This will make sure to stay contained to destroy your games as soon as possible assuring you can purchase another one from VAG in the future.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5130/03d41vb6.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7858/smbrownbagfrontmr1qi1.jpg