U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[TonyTheTiger]

Having said that, I'm not so sure about Gamestop getting authorization. As a private business, they are free to carry whatever they want to carry. I suspect with Radiant Silvergun, they didn't get permission but Sega really didn't care or simply wasn't in a position to dictate terms given that they needed GS to support the launch of the Dreamcast shortly thereafter. Gamestop sold various region unlock devices for the Saturn, so it seems unlikely that Sega would have also endorsed these products which could have been used for piracy.

I obviously can't say I know for sure what happened but I do know that when something is licensed for a certain territory it means that territory. That's why Capcom had a small crisis over Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter. Americans were importing the game but the Norimaro character was only licensed for Japan and I can only assume somebody yelled at Capcom over it. There can be legal consequences for these things due to contract terms. It may be a stretch but what if some American company had licensed Radiant Silvergun for North American distribution and all of a sudden GameStop is selling the Japanese version to people?

While it's possible GameStop just didn't care I have a hard time imagining that was the case just because of how overly cautious these major retailers tend to be over stuff like that.

In any event, I'm not sure why we are having this whole debate about what constitutes a US release versus any other kind of release. What every collector considers to be part of a "complete" collection is their business. It's an interesting academic debate, but there are way too many gray areas to ever answer this question for everyone and it doesn't matter what the majority concludes, only what the buyers and sellers trading in this particular game decide.

I guess I want to have it because of the chicken and egg problem. Why do people want the UPC sticker? The only apparent reason is because there's a common belief it denotes the game as distinctly American. People didn't just come to this same conclusion independently. It's just common understanding that Sonic + UPC = American game and that idea spreads around like wildfire. If that notion gets dispelled through analysis and comparisons to similar situations then all of a sudden it stops being so sought after. Trust me, I have no interest in telling anybody they paid too much for something and take no joy should the game's value plummet if I end up "winning" the argument and get the game ejected from the U.S. release list.

But at the same time I feel at least a little bad for the people out there who may have bought copies of Japanese games in major American retailers, can prove it, and yet would be laughed at for trying to argue they hold an elusive American copy when Sonic UPC owners are doing essentially the same exact thing. I care not because people are exhanging large sums of money but because the reason people are doing that is based on what I happen to think is misinformation. And if anybody in the community believes something everybody assumes true is actually false then they should speak up about it.

Regarding your MK 2 example, I understood it that they were both released in the US, but with different UPC codes. This happens all the time in Greatest Hits releases, but people consider those to be variants of the main game. Are you saying that there has to be artwork changes in order for it to be a legit release? What percentage has to change? Does the program itself need to change? Where is the line drawn?

I was actually asking you that same question. If a new UPC is enough to make a game distinct from an otherwise identical copy then where is the line drawn? Because there are plenty of situations where a game gets tons of changes but keeps the UPC the same. I'm questioning the weight you're attributing to the different barcode. I think we should just call a spade a spade. If it looks like a duck, ya know? The more we mess around with stuff like the weight of a barcode the more shit we get ourselves into since now we're starting to call two copies of the same game two different things if we want to remain consistent. But then that sounds silly so we have to backpedal and say something like "Well, but it already has a release in America..." and stuff like that. And then we have the reverse where if the barcode is the same across all regions we get to say it's just one game despite whatever other differences there may be.

Just the fact that the argument in support of Sonic UPC has to go into something so convoluted to justify itself should be enough to prove it's not actually an American game. The simplest solution is often the right one. And it's far simpler to say Sonic is a European game that saw some American distribution than to say it is an American game and over here are all kinds of wild independent justifications for why this isn't a separate game or this isn't an American copy, each with their own loopholes.

Again, there was no reason for Sega to put any sort of effort into showing intent to release this. The system was on it's way out and this was likely just a way to stretch the income from it a bit further with limited expense and effort. They likely had a stack of carts in a warehouse somewhere and decided to sell them here though some retail channel.

I can't help but read this as actually supporting my position. "Hey, we're not making much money in America anymore but we got some overstock of Sonic games across the pond. May as well pawn 'em off, right?" That doesn't sound like "European game sold in America" to you?

With Radiant, it was likely more Gamestop that wanted to sell it here than ESP asking them to carry it. Big difference.

But, no, because if that's the case then many localized games handled by somebody other than the original publisher wouldn't count as an American game. I'm pretty sure Working Designs sought out Lunar, for instance. Game Arts didn't ask them to sell it here, either. It doesn't matter who approaches who. What matters is whether or not there is an agreement among all interested parties. There is literally no legal difference (in terms of what we're arguing) between a scenario where ESP asks GameStop to sell Radiant Silvergun or GameStop asking ESP for permission to sell Radiant Silvergun.