U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[TonyTheTiger]

Eh, see this is where I don't mesh with that. You keep pushing the idea of intent but it's precisely that intent that I think is missing here.

What I'm looking for is some evidence that Sega made a specific decision to "create" U.S. copies. A new printed insert or some other kind of identifier tailored to the specific copy would be just that. Sure, you could still pick and mix the internals but at least it would suggest that there was a specific intent to actually create a new edition. In other words, I'm looking for something that tells me that when Sega decided to sell Sonic in America they picked this copy, not a copy. Without that clear intent, the intent to not just sell a copy in America, then I can't jump on board. Look at Gyromite. Sure, some copies are actually Japanese PCBs with a converter inside. But the intent to "create" an American game was there. Sega shows me none of that with Sonic.

What if Squaresoft had started taking extra Final Fantasy VII stock from Japan, stuck a UPC sticker on them, and for whatever reason sold them in America? I think it's crazy to then say that there are two distinct "American" versions where one just happens to be entirely Japanese. Hell, if Sonic did get a legitimate release in addition to this UPC nonsense then I doubt we'd be having this conversation at all. Nobody would ever in a million years consider it an American version.

And let's even go further and say there were two identical copies of a game sold in America but the only difference was a different UPC code because of some backdoor wackiness. Let's say Mortal Kombat II or something had different print runs with different UPC codes. I will bet my ass they would be considered mere variants at best, not two completely different games with both being required for a full set. That alone convinces me the whole thing is crazy.

[98PaceCar]

Eh, see this is where I don't mesh with that. You keep pushing the idea of intent but it's precisely that intent that I think is missing here.

What I'm looking for is some evidence that Sega made a specific decision to "create" U.S. copies. A new printed insert or some other kind of identifier tailored to the specific copy would be just that. Sure, you could still pick and mix the internals but at least it would suggest that there was a specific intent to actually create a new edition. In other words, I'm looking for something that tells me that when Sega decided to sell Sonic in America they picked this copy, not a copy. Without that clear intent, the intent to not just sell a copy in America, then I can't jump on board. Look at Gyromite. Sure, some copies are actually Japanese PCBs with a converter inside. But the intent to "create" an American game was there. Sega shows me none of that with Sonic.

What if Squaresoft had started taking extra Final Fantasy VII stock from Japan, stuck a UPC sticker on them, and for whatever reason sold them in America? I think it's crazy to then say that there are two distinct "American" versions where one just happens to be entirely Japanese. Hell, if Sonic did get a legitimate release in addition to this UPC nonsense then I doubt we'd be having this conversation at all. Nobody would ever in a million years consider it an American version.

And let's even go further and say there were two identical copies of a game sold in America but the only difference was a different UPC code because of some backdoor wackiness. Let's say Mortal Kombat II or something had different print runs with different UPC codes. I will bet my ass they would be considered mere variants at best, not two completely different games with both being required for a full set. That alone convinces me the whole thing is crazy.

As a system, the SMS is somewhat unique in that it doesn't suffer from the normal differences that traditionally separate the same game from multiple regions. Both the US and Euro copies use the same boxes, carts, and insert style. I think most Euro games have multi language manuals where the US are just English (or possibly English/French, depending on Canada, I'm not certain). SMS also doesn't have any kind of NTSC/PAL issues nor does it have concerns with ratings. These facts alone make it very simple for a game to be pulled over and made an official release with little to no effort and more importantly to Sega, little cost.

Given that these are all acknowledged to be late releases when the system was winding down, why would anybody expect any real effort be put into the release of them? I'd suspect it was nothing more than a decision to release some big name games that would likely generate some revenue with the least amount of work. Again, the method they chose doesn't mesh well with what collectors like, but I assure you that was never a factor in their decision. They had stock on hand and it was an easy way to get product into a new market. Least amount of work for the most return.

The Gyromite is not really a good example in my mind as there are physical differences in Japan vs US releases. If they wanted to release it here, they had to make physical changes to the cart. It's not like any kid with an NES could buy a Famicom cart and use it in their NES. So, it did take more effort on the part of Nintendo, but that was due to design issues between the systems. SMS doesn't have that, no lockouts or any other physical or even programming differences exist. It's a plug and play system for cross region games making it simple to use pre-existing stock from a different region.

I firmly believe the reason we are having this discussion is the value of the Euro release over the US release. If the UPC code didn't generate a nearly $1000 price difference, nobody would care. But it does, so here we are. It is tough to get a copy of this that has the limited amount of provenance available, but there are copies out there with the appropriate back story and paperwork (in this case, a UPC on a box). We've also seen at least anecdotal evidence of it being sold in magazine ads posted here as well. That's not total proof, but it lends credibility to the other facts we have. It's certainly an odd release and a hotly contested one, but I see no reason to not believe it should be considered a US release while other games (Radiant, Shenmue, etc) are not.

True, if there are 2 copies of the same game released with different UPC codes, they would be considered variants to most, if not all. But with Sonic, there was no other release of it here to be a variant of. My thoughts on what constitutes a "full set" would be one of each title released for a system in a region. With that definition, Sonic would fit as it was the only released version in the region but I would not need both releases of the proposed MK 2 as they were both sold in the same region.

What ultimately matters is that the buyer and seller are both happy with the transaction. As an SMS collector, I'm jealous of someone that has a legit copy and somewhat bummed knowing that I will likely never have a complete US set due to the fact that I choose to not pay the price it takes for a copy of Sonic with the UPC. But even that doesn't put me in a situation where I'll say it's not a legit release because despite the ambiguity and concerns about it, the evidence tells me that it is a real release.

[TonyTheTiger]

But with Sonic, there was no other release of it here to be a variant of.

It's a variant of the European version. Pretty simple, really. Just because there wasn't another Sonic release doesn't magically make this variant an American copy. That's where I think you're missing the point. You can't cherry pick and say that if MKII had two different UPC codes then they'd just be two American variants but if Sonic gets two UPC codes then one is European and the other is American based solely on the fact that there was no actual American release. That makes no sense.

Besides, if you're saying that the altered UPC code makes it a wholly different release, are you saying the opposite holds true, as well? That if two versions of the same game have the same UPC code then they are the same release? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument against Radiant Silvergun. The UPC codes are the same so it's the same title.

[ifkz]

My 2 cents:

I don't see how anyone could consider a JPN or EU region game imported over here as a USA release because they need converters to play on US region systems. There is no way Sega would have authorized using a 4-1 memory cart on the Saturn or a boot disc on the Dreamcast, that would be Sega basically authorizing piracy since they both have that function in addition to bypassing region lockouts. Gamestop did sell them, sure, I remember them being in stock new. But this was no different than a mom and pop store carrying them.

The SMS had no region lockout, so somewhere Sega saw the need for a couple more games for their dying system and brought over three: Sonic, Strider, and Spider-man. It was easy, no converter was necessary, and they supported what was left of the SMS user base in the USA.

Want another perfect example?

Back in my thrift store days I found two separate copies of Scramble Spirits in the USA imported from Canada for the SMS. I think I even remember a factory outlet selling it new back when the SMS was alive. It is not considered part of the USA region set because it was never officially sold and glitches like crazy when played on a USA system (I guess it is looking for 50Hz vs. 60Hz screen refresh rate). It may be here, but not here in any official capacity.

[TonyTheTiger]

My 2 cents:

I don't see how anyone could consider a JPN or EU region game imported over here as a USA release because they need converters to play on US region systems.

PSP games don't. What if the same scenario happened with the PSP?

There is no way Sega would have authorized using a 4-1 memory cart on the Saturn or a boot disc on the Dreamcast, that would be Sega basically authorizing piracy since they both have that function in addition to bypassing region lockouts. Gamestop did sell them, sure, I remember them being in stock new. But this was no different than a mom and pop store carrying them.

It is highly unlikely a retailer like GameStop would have sold imports without publisher consent. They're just too high profile to take that risk. I obviously don't know the backroom dealings that would have gone on but the odds they would have done it without conferring with the interested parties are near zilch.

I agree with you that a mom & pop selling an import is just that. But GameStop selling an import most certainly creates an air of official distribution.

The SMS had no region lockout, so somewhere Sega saw the need for a couple more games for their dying system and brought over three: Sonic, Strider, and Spider-man. It was easy, no converter was necessary, and they supported what was left of the SMS user base in the USA.

Want another perfect example?

Back in my thrift store days I found two separate copies of Scramble Spirits in the USA imported from Canada for the SMS. I think I even remember a factory outlet selling it new back when the SMS was alive. It is not considered part of the USA region set because it was never officially sold and glitches like crazy when played on a USA system (I guess it is looking for 50Hz vs. 60Hz screen refresh rate). It may be here, but not here in any official capacity.

Just because something is here in official capacity doesn't make it a product of or for that region. That's what I'm trying to get across. Aussie2B mentioned Squaresoft making Japanese merchandise available to Americans through their website. NISA made a Japanese Mana Khemia box set available via preorder through Rosenqueen. It's all here in an official capacity. But they're not American products. I can hop on PSN and download Rockman 3 as a PSOne classic. It's still a Japanese game even though Sony has it on the American PSN.

[Bojay1997]

PSP games don't. What if the same scenario happened with the PSP?



It is highly unlikely a retailer like GameStop would have sold imports without publisher consent. They're just too high profile to take that risk. I obviously don't know the backroom dealings that would have gone on but the odds they would have done it without conferring with the interested parties are near zilch.

I agree with you that a mom & pop selling an import is just that. But GameStop selling an import most certainly creates an air of official distribution.



Just because something is here in official capacity doesn't make it a product of or for that region. That's what I'm trying to get across. Aussie2B mentioned Squaresoft making Japanese merchandise available to Americans through their website. NISA made a Japanese Mana Khemia box set available via preorder through Rosenqueen. It's all here in an official capacity. But they're not American products. I can hop on PSN and download Rockman 3 as a PSOne classic. It's still a Japanese game even though Sony has it on the American PSN.

The same scenario has happened with the PSP. Fry's Electronics sold a number of Japanese titles for the system that were provided by Tommo which is a large distributor. I believe Tommo has also provided imports for region free systems to other retailers including Kmart. There were a couple of European exclusive DS soccer games I saw in their $19.99 dump bins a few weeks back. They all had one generic bargain bin UPC attached to the back over the original barcode.

Having said that, I'm not so sure about Gamestop getting authorization. As a private business, they are free to carry whatever they want to carry. I suspect with Radiant Silvergun, they didn't get permission but Sega really didn't care or simply wasn't in a position to dictate terms given that they needed GS to support the launch of the Dreamcast shortly thereafter. Gamestop sold various region unlock devices for the Saturn, so it seems unlikely that Sega would have also endorsed these products which could have been used for piracy.

In any event, I'm not sure why we are having this whole debate about what constitutes a US release versus any other kind of release. What every collector considers to be part of a "complete" collection is their business. It's an interesting academic debate, but there are way too many gray areas to ever answer this question for everyone and it doesn't matter what the majority concludes, only what the buyers and sellers trading in this particular game decide.

[ifkz]

I think figuring out what is considered a complete set is going to have to be adjusted for a lot of the post 8-bit systems. Back in the SMS and NES days, there was no internet and importing basically meant a kid moved from another country to the US and kept their games. I remember importing really started to take off during the Genesis/SNES days.

But I can see where the lines between regions really start to blur with the 32 bit and beyond systems. I read somewhere that there are JPN exclusive 360 games that nave no region lockouts and are begging to be imported over here.

At least with the 8-bit and under, complete sets are clear and do-able.

EDIT: Maybe someone could update those grungy old FAQs to include a "commonly imported" section during the system lifetime. That would not leave any of these gray area titles out and would provide useful information for future collectors.

[98PaceCar]

It's a variant of the European version. Pretty simple, really. Just because there wasn't another Sonic release doesn't magically make this variant an American copy. That's where I think you're missing the point. You can't cherry pick and say that if MKII had two different UPC codes then they'd just be two American variants but if Sonic gets two UPC codes then one is European and the other is American based solely on the fact that there was no actual American release. That makes no sense.

Besides, if you're saying that the altered UPC code makes it a wholly different release, are you saying the opposite holds true, as well? That if two versions of the same game have the same UPC code then they are the same release? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument against Radiant Silvergun. The UPC codes are the same so it's the same title.

I wouldn't say it's a variant of the Euro release as much as it's a "localized" version of the Euro release for the US market. Fortunately for Sega, all they had to do to create a suitable product for the US was give it a US part number and obscure the Euro part number, which they did via a sticker. I've seen that technique used on other products, so why not this one?

Regarding your MK 2 example, I understood it that they were both released in the US, but with different UPC codes. This happens all the time in Greatest Hits releases, but people consider those to be variants of the main game. Are you saying that there has to be artwork changes in order for it to be a legit release? What percentage has to change? Does the program itself need to change? Where is the line drawn?

Again, there was no reason for Sega to put any sort of effort into showing intent to release this. The system was on it's way out and this was likely just a way to stretch the income from it a bit further with limited expense and effort. They likely had a stack of carts in a warehouse somewhere and decided to sell them here though some retail channel. With Radiant, it was likely more Gamestop that wanted to sell it here than ESP asking them to carry it. Big difference.

[TonyTheTiger]

Having said that, I'm not so sure about Gamestop getting authorization. As a private business, they are free to carry whatever they want to carry. I suspect with Radiant Silvergun, they didn't get permission but Sega really didn't care or simply wasn't in a position to dictate terms given that they needed GS to support the launch of the Dreamcast shortly thereafter. Gamestop sold various region unlock devices for the Saturn, so it seems unlikely that Sega would have also endorsed these products which could have been used for piracy.

I obviously can't say I know for sure what happened but I do know that when something is licensed for a certain territory it means that territory. That's why Capcom had a small crisis over Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter. Americans were importing the game but the Norimaro character was only licensed for Japan and I can only assume somebody yelled at Capcom over it. There can be legal consequences for these things due to contract terms. It may be a stretch but what if some American company had licensed Radiant Silvergun for North American distribution and all of a sudden GameStop is selling the Japanese version to people?

While it's possible GameStop just didn't care I have a hard time imagining that was the case just because of how overly cautious these major retailers tend to be over stuff like that.

In any event, I'm not sure why we are having this whole debate about what constitutes a US release versus any other kind of release. What every collector considers to be part of a "complete" collection is their business. It's an interesting academic debate, but there are way too many gray areas to ever answer this question for everyone and it doesn't matter what the majority concludes, only what the buyers and sellers trading in this particular game decide.

I guess I want to have it because of the chicken and egg problem. Why do people want the UPC sticker? The only apparent reason is because there's a common belief it denotes the game as distinctly American. People didn't just come to this same conclusion independently. It's just common understanding that Sonic + UPC = American game and that idea spreads around like wildfire. If that notion gets dispelled through analysis and comparisons to similar situations then all of a sudden it stops being so sought after. Trust me, I have no interest in telling anybody they paid too much for something and take no joy should the game's value plummet if I end up "winning" the argument and get the game ejected from the U.S. release list.

But at the same time I feel at least a little bad for the people out there who may have bought copies of Japanese games in major American retailers, can prove it, and yet would be laughed at for trying to argue they hold an elusive American copy when Sonic UPC owners are doing essentially the same exact thing. I care not because people are exhanging large sums of money but because the reason people are doing that is based on what I happen to think is misinformation. And if anybody in the community believes something everybody assumes true is actually false then they should speak up about it.

Regarding your MK 2 example, I understood it that they were both released in the US, but with different UPC codes. This happens all the time in Greatest Hits releases, but people consider those to be variants of the main game. Are you saying that there has to be artwork changes in order for it to be a legit release? What percentage has to change? Does the program itself need to change? Where is the line drawn?

I was actually asking you that same question. If a new UPC is enough to make a game distinct from an otherwise identical copy then where is the line drawn? Because there are plenty of situations where a game gets tons of changes but keeps the UPC the same. I'm questioning the weight you're attributing to the different barcode. I think we should just call a spade a spade. If it looks like a duck, ya know? The more we mess around with stuff like the weight of a barcode the more shit we get ourselves into since now we're starting to call two copies of the same game two different things if we want to remain consistent. But then that sounds silly so we have to backpedal and say something like "Well, but it already has a release in America..." and stuff like that. And then we have the reverse where if the barcode is the same across all regions we get to say it's just one game despite whatever other differences there may be.

Just the fact that the argument in support of Sonic UPC has to go into something so convoluted to justify itself should be enough to prove it's not actually an American game. The simplest solution is often the right one. And it's far simpler to say Sonic is a European game that saw some American distribution than to say it is an American game and over here are all kinds of wild independent justifications for why this isn't a separate game or this isn't an American copy, each with their own loopholes.

Again, there was no reason for Sega to put any sort of effort into showing intent to release this. The system was on it's way out and this was likely just a way to stretch the income from it a bit further with limited expense and effort. They likely had a stack of carts in a warehouse somewhere and decided to sell them here though some retail channel.

I can't help but read this as actually supporting my position. "Hey, we're not making much money in America anymore but we got some overstock of Sonic games across the pond. May as well pawn 'em off, right?" That doesn't sound like "European game sold in America" to you?

With Radiant, it was likely more Gamestop that wanted to sell it here than ESP asking them to carry it. Big difference.

But, no, because if that's the case then many localized games handled by somebody other than the original publisher wouldn't count as an American game. I'm pretty sure Working Designs sought out Lunar, for instance. Game Arts didn't ask them to sell it here, either. It doesn't matter who approaches who. What matters is whether or not there is an agreement among all interested parties. There is literally no legal difference (in terms of what we're arguing) between a scenario where ESP asks GameStop to sell Radiant Silvergun or GameStop asking ESP for permission to sell Radiant Silvergun.

[98PaceCar]

But at the same time I feel at least a little bad for the people out there who may have bought copies of Japanese games in major American retailers, can prove it, and yet would be laughed at for trying to argue they hold an elusive American copy when Sonic UPC owners are doing essentially the same exact thing. I care not because people are exhanging large sums of money but because the reason people are doing that is based on what I happen to think is misinformation. And if anybody in the community believes something everybody assumes true is actually false then they should speak up about it.

All things purchased are buyer beware and this is a case where buyers should be very careful when spending their money, no doubt about that.

I present my side as such:

1. The game was sold in the US as evidenced by magazine ads and a few copies showing up with the appropriate documentation (the UPC).

2. The game was given a unique UPC which covered the Euro UPC, thus making it a distinct product from the Euro version.

Those 2 facts are enough to lead me to believe that the game was released in the US, even if it was in small numbers.

What are the facts that cause you to believe it was not in fact released here?

(ahk, you caught me with a ninja edit, more coming later)

[TonyTheTiger]

All things purchased are buyer beware and this is a case where buyers should be very careful when spending their money, no doubt about that.

No doubt. I'm not saying I feel anybody is entitled to any monetary compensation. But I do think equal things deserve to be treated equally. And I find calling Sonic UPC an American game but calling Radiant Silvergun (among many other examples) a mere Japanese game that happened to be sold in America two incompatible ideas. I find it impossible to reconcile that and think every argument I've heard attempting to do so leaves loopholes wider than Neptune.

I present my side as such:

1. The game was sold in the US as evidenced by magazine ads and a few copies showing up with the appropriate documentation (the UPC).

2. The game was given a unique UPC which covered the Euro UPC, thus making it a distinct product from the Euro version.

Those 2 facts are enough to lead me to believe that the game was released in the US, even if it was in small numbers.

What are the facts that cause you to believe it was not in fact released here?

This is where you seem to be missing my point. I never once said it wasn't released here. Of course it was released. But it was the European version they released.

To respond to your two points:

1) Many other products of foreign origin were sold in the U.S. and also have or had documentation to prove it. This is indisputable.

2) If a different UPC code makes Sonic UPC a different region than Sonic sans UPC then I once again contend that it logically follows any title with a UPC variant are two separate SKUs and are different titles. If you follow the logical end of your argument it reduces to an absurd conclusion. And it required you to backpedal ala the MKII example. It also arguably follows that any two titles with the same UPC are not two separate titles which creates even more problems.

[98PaceCar]

No doubt. I'm not saying I feel anybody is entitled to any monetary compensation. But I do think equal things deserve to be treated equally. And I find calling Sonic UPC an American game but calling Radiant Silvergun (among many other examples) a mere Japanese game that happened to be sold in America two incompatible ideas. I find it impossible to reconcile that and think every argument I've heard attempting to do so leaves loopholes wider than Neptune.



This is where you seem to be missing my point. I never once said it wasn't released here. Of course it was released. But it was the European version they released.

To respond to your two points:

1) Many other products of foreign origin were sold in the U.S. and also have or had documentation to prove it. This is indisputable.

2) If a different UPC code makes Sonic UPC a different region than Sonic sans UPC then I once again contend that it logically follows any title with a UPC variant are two separate SKUs and are different titles. If you follow the logical end of your argument it reduces to an absurd conclusion. And it required you to backpedal ala the MKII example. It also arguably follows that any two titles with the same UPC are not two separate titles which creates even more problems.

I suspect now we are kind of fighting a terminology issue, though that's not the root of our disagreement.

I contend that while Radiant was sold in the US, Sonic was released in the US. By that I mean that Sonic was given the proper internal and external documentation to be an actual US product while Radiant was merely available at retail. Now the truth is that we will never know for sure the inner workings of either title and how they came to be in the US, but the fact remains that the normal process for changing a product over happened with Sonic for some reason.

If the UPC wasn't added to create an actual US product, why was it added? The fact that it was originally slated for a different market is of no consequence. It was product that was sent to the Euro market and then altered to be sold in the US. If it had not been altered by adding a UPC, I would agree with you. But it was altered and I'm certain that the alteration was done for some reason. Again, Occam's Razor tells me that it was altered in order to release it in the US as a real product.

If it comes to light that Radiant had the same treatment, then at least in my mind it should be considered a US released product and not just a Japanese product that was sold in the US. As it stands, I agree with Bojay that it was likely just bought and resold by Gamestop as a niche product and nothing more. That alone doesn't imply that it should be considered a US release.

Not real sure how I'm backpedaling on my response, but it's pretty common to consider multiple releases of the same game in the same region variants. I'm sure some folks collect based on UPC, but that doesn't apply here. Sonic only had one release in the US so the UPC assigned to it is what makes it a US release. Again, the fact that it started life as a Euro product doesn't have any bearing as it was altered for release here. Not uncommon at all and a smart move by Sega if that is truly what it means.

I think at this point, we're just arguing in circles and not going anywhere. You believe that it is not a US release and I do. I don't see either of us changing our stance. I would love to see some fact that proves (or even suggest) that it was not a US release and was merely sold here, but that data doesn't exist outside of Sega if it even exists at all anymore. It really will be a personal decision each collector needs to make. I made mine a long time ago and bought the Euro version because I'm unwilling to spend the extra on something so easily faked on a game that honestly, I've never liked. For that decision, I'll never say I have an SMS full set for fear of belittling the people that do have a true US set with the UPC Sonic.

[TonyTheTiger]

Again, please tell me what facts you have to support that it was not released here. Arguing against my facts isn't going to sway me.

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions. You're contending that the UPC code acts as the key switch. So how do you explain games that don't have different UPC codes between regions? If Sonic getting a new UPC makes it American then why don't all other American games have different UPC codes from their foreign counterparts? If you're going to argue that the UPC has that much power then you have to ground that in something. You can't just say "UPC means a lot" without showing that it traditionally has meant a lot. As far as I can tell, it doesn't and never did.

For all the weight you're giving the UPC code, clearly it's a mere oddity, not indicative of any actual "intent" on Sega's part. That's my evidence in a nutshell. That a UPC code means nothing as far as region goes. And my evidence (which I actually had to go look up) are all the games that are sold around the world, many of which are clearly for different regions but have identical UPCs.

Here's the back of the European version of Super Mario Advance 4 and the back of two variants from the U.S.:







And this is just one example. I've looked around and there are plenty of others ranging back to the NES.

Obviously nobody would argue that because the UPCs are all the same that if they have a European copy instead of an American one then that counts as part of a complete U.S. GBA collection just as well. And, based on this, it's clear that publishers and distributors don't put significant stock in UPC codes as something to denote region.

Now I'm not well versed in SMS. I'll be the first to admit that. I have no idea why Sega didn't just use the barcode on the insert (which I didn't know was even there) and won't try to explain it. But the fact that UPC is not indicative of region then suggesting that the UPC sticker on Sonic in particular does just that very thing is something I can't get behind.

I mean, look, I respect that you're willing to engage this and you've actually made the strongest arguments I've seen on the issue. But I still think that you're giving way too much weight to the UPC. You're putting much more stock into it than publishers/distributors seem to which tells me that when Sega affixed the sticker they weren't thinking "make this a new region." Again, I have no idea what they actually were thinking but given the evidence that UPCs haven't the history of making that distinction I can't conclude that it does in this one instance.

Clearly having the same UPC code among multiple regions isn't a problem as far as establishing whether a game is, to use you're term, "released" in that region. So why does Radiant Silvergun having the same UPC in GameStop as it did in Japan mean that it isn't an American release when other American releases also have the same UPC as copies sold overseas?

That's why I'm where I'm at. Because, devil's advocate, if I were to agree that Sonic UPC is American then I still hold based on the evidence that many other things are also American, UPC be damned. Basically, it's not so much you believing Sonic is American that I have a big problem with. What I have a problem with is how you can argue Sonic is American while simultaneously rejecting all other examples. That's the part of your argument I can't reconcile. I can at least entertain the idea that Sonic is American. But I can't entertain that Sonic is American while Radiant Silvergun is not. I feel like they have to be kept together since there's nothing of substantial value to distinguish them. I don't think the UPC is anything close to being that valuable and my evidence is above.

[Bojay1997]

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions. You're contending that the UPC code acts as the key switch. So how do you explain games that don't have different UPC codes between regions?

I'll be honest, your example of a GBA game having the same UPC in various regions is not only surprising, but kind of changes my mind about the whole argument. I always assumed every region would have a different UPC since there are many US release games nowadays that have different UPCs depending on the retailer and what exclusive DLC is included. I have also seen plenty of US only release games that had a second UPC stuck over the original UPC I'm assuming because of an error. It would be interesting to know why Sega felt the need to add the second UPC. Perhaps the original UPC was already taken by another product in the US? Does anyone know how UPCs are assigned? Is there a central authority that publishers have to contact to get a UPC assignment?

[98PaceCar]

I'll be honest, your example of a GBA game having the same UPC in various regions is not only surprising, but kind of changes my mind about the whole argument. I always assumed every region would have a different UPC since there are many US release games nowadays that have different UPCs depending on the retailer and what exclusive DLC is included. I have also seen plenty of US only release games that had a second UPC stuck over the original UPC I'm assuming because of an error. It would be interesting to know why Sega felt the need to add the second UPC. Perhaps the original UPC was already taken by another product in the US? Does anyone know how UPCs are assigned? Is there a central authority that publishers have to contact to get a UPC assignment?

Much like Bojay, I wasn't aware of this and it does seem to change things a bit (why didn't you post it a day ago?? ). Still doesn't answer why Sega chose to re-barcode the few games that are commonly thought to have been released in the US despite being Euro copies, but it does hurt the argument. I'm not sure if it changes things enough for me to believe that Sonic wasn't released here, but it does raise further questions.

[TonyTheTiger]

Ha, I didn't even know it a day ago. I actually went looking for UPC codes because of all this. Who actually pays attention to those things?

I think that's what it's all about. It's all questions. I would never in a million years try to explain why Sega affixed UPC stickers to a couple games. Maybe it's like Bojay said and for whatever reason there was a duplicate code out there somewhere. But there are hundreds of weird things like that in this hobby.

[NerdXCrewWill]

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions.

I have read all of this thread. I must say, TonyTheTiger has done an extremely good job with his logical argument. Props go to 98PaceCar for debating intelligently. I was really didn't care one way or the other, as I'm not a collector. Now I think that, in light of Tony's argument against the UPC code, anyone willing to accept Sonic as a US release must accept all other official video game import releases as US releases as well.

This was fun reading, guys.

[RCM]

Not that you have to take wiki as law, but this may clear up some of the UPC confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code

I don't claim to know everything about UPCs, but I believe a product can have several different UPCs depending on the number of retailers that sell it, etc.

[SpaceFlea]

So, with all this said, do we know if ALL Sonic (as well as the other three) games sold in the US had the additional UPC sticker attached? Or could it have been just copies sold at certain distributors?

[Bojay1997]

Not that you have to take wiki as law, but this may clear up some of the UPC confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code

I don't claim to know everything about UPCs, but I believe a product can have several different UPCs depending on the number of retailers that sell it, etc.

I did a little digging and it appears that there is a standards organization that publishers/manufacturers get in contact with and once they get assigned a unique number range, they can essentially implement their own barcode sequencing in line with various rules. So, it's possible that Sega Europe was considered a different company than Sega of America and therefore they couldn't simply use the same barcode. It's also possible that they just did this for internal reasons or maybe the distributor and not Sega was required to put their own unique manufacturer number and UPC on there in line with their own sequencing plan.

Here is the link if anyone is really curious:

http://www.gs1.org/barcodes/implementation/