Limited Run Games (producing physical copies of digital games)

[Aussie2B]

Reread what you quoted:


Nobody is going to copy this business model for games that can sell as regular retail releases because why would anyone sell fewer copies and make less money when they could sell and make a lot more?

Understand now?

As for the rate of releases, 1) LRG is going to slow down, 2) nobody ever said that anybody must buy every single one of them. If somebody can't afford to buy everything but is so OCD that it's going to crush them if they don't maintain a full set, then they probably shouldn't be collecting in the first place. Any sensible collector will shop within their means. You can't use companies offering "too many" products as a scapegoat for unhealthy thinking and habits. It'd be like somebody complaining that the PS1 got 1200 releases compared to the N64's 400.

[kupomogli]

Reread what you quoted:

I guess I misread it.


As for the rate of releases, 1) LRG is going to slow down, 2) nobody ever said that anybody must buy every single one of them. If somebody can't afford to buy everything but is so OCD that it's going to crush them if they don't maintain a full set, then they probably shouldn't be collecting in the first place. Any sensible collector will shop within their means. You can't use companies offering "too many" products as a scapegoat for unhealthy thinking and habits. It'd be like somebody complaining that the PS1 got 1200 releases compared to the N64's 400.

The difference between PS1 and N64 releases or any generation of games while you're in that generation is that you have years to purchase the games and most games will depreciate in value. You only have minutes to days to get LRG, SRG, and Play-Asia games, so there's a difference.

Additionally, as I've said, if people get burnt out on the idea and stop buying games due to worse quality games, companies might due away with this business model. I'm aware LRG stated they'll do less releases, but an additional 17 announcements on top of the many announcements that haven't been released yet doesn't sound like they're going to slow down with releases.

[Aussie2B]

Nothing is stopping anybody from getting older LRG releases. They don't go *poof* and disappear off the face of the Earth. Yes, they're not available directly from LRG anymore, but they're still out there and available. I can go on eBay right now and buy sealed copies of One Way Heroics and Thomas Was Alone for even less than what I paid to LRG.

Also, I think the comparison to PS1/N64 is fair because, in any generation, there are a minority of games where supplies dry up very quickly, before they have any opportunity to be available from retailers for years or experience any markdowns. LRG's releases are just another form of that. I remember wanting to buy Valkyrie Profile on PS1 a mere four months past the release date, and I had to call up every store in town that sold video games to find one single store that still had one single copy, and I had to pay the full $40 MSRP for it. At least with LRG, one has the advantage in knowing that the games may be tougher to get later on. With Valkyrie Profile, I just got lucky. I didn't know it was going to be so hard to track down at that point, and had I waited longer, I probably wouldn't have been available to find a copy at any brick & mortar store, I probably would've put it out of mind, and then I would've been forced to fork out a lot of cash down the road on eBay for a used copy.

I'm not even going to address your skepticism of LRG slowing down because we already went over this and established that it'll take some time to see effect. That's how businesses work. You don't always see immediate results. I mean, Bard's Gold was signed in 2015, for crying out loud. So you're clearly intentionally plugging your ears on that.

If LRG and copycats eventually fold, it's no problem to me. I'll get what I can out of them while I can.

[celerystalker]

@celerystalker: Not everything successful is also good for gamers and collectors.

That's kind of the whole deal, though... it's not about what's good for us. It's about a successful business model, which offers at least a few perks for players. Their goal is to keep customers happy enough to keep spending money. They may even have some good intentions; that's an individual-by-individual situation. However, altruism is secondary at best in business.

[lendelin]

@Aussie2B: I didn't intend to respond because in your adamant defense of LRG you hit a nonsensical level of someone who is hard to reason with and seems almost to be a spokesperson for a company. But one of your comments really bothered me.


You are defending a businessmodel in which a gamer and collector can only hope to get the game for retail price (in the first ten minutes to 24 hours) and later on for a couple(!) of games still for retail but for the vast majority of the games for 50% up to 600% more expensive. Your answer: Every collector has to shop within their means. This is a trivial truth, and certainly applies to all of us. Then you say if a collector can't afford a complete Limited Run set he shouldn't collect in the first place.


That's pretty arrogant. It is not only about the entire set, but about a lot of single games.You and I are probably in a very good position to afford Limited Run games. I could buy the entire set tonight without any problems, I'm old and settled and have the means to buy pretty much the stuff I want. But think about others with more limited means or younger guys. A couple of months ago I talked to two students who are interested in older games and have a PS4 because students know that I have a small collection of videogames. Both played the old Oddworlds still on the PS1 and one of them wanted to buy New N Tasty and was amazed that it was around $200. They are college students, they don't have a lot of money. What should I have told them: You shouldn't buy this game and collect in the first place?


I recommended Lumo which still can be had for a bit under $20 and is a fantastic (!) game. If this game would have been marketed with the Limited Run-nonsense, I guarantee you it would fetch at least around $100. What is better for gamers and collectors? To get a game for over a year and more for retail or less, or Limited Run games which are sold overpriced based on rarity hype on ebay?


Furthermore, did the mindset of collectors change in the last twenty years? Wasn't it always a fun part of collecting to hunt for games and get a great deal and find games cheap? Didn't we go to thrift stores and garage sales? The collecting scene changed, I know that very well, but to defend now a business model revolving around rarity-hype which factors in ebay scalping (!!) resulting in overpriced games goes very far. Good for Limited Run, it is a successful business model, bad for gamers and collectors.


(And no, it won't be fun! Just in case you come up with the reasoning that it is even MORE fun to find with luck in a couple of years really cheap a $300 Oddworld)


In your adamant defense of LR you hit the bottom of the reasoning barrel. You defend LR by saying every published game has the potential to be rare and pricey after release. This is a trivial truth. It is so trivial that it doesn't say much pro or contra LR. Isn't this like defending a drunk driver by saying that every sobre driver can cause accidents too? (which is also certainly true.) But then you go even further and say at least with Limited Run games we are aware to be cautious about possible future rarity. Isn't this like saying that at least with drunk drivers we know that we have to be careful?


Look, it is actually pretty easy, we don't need sideshows and distractions and questionable reasoning. Just answer this one Q:


Which of the following two businessmodels do you prefer as a gamer and collector? 1) the Limited Run model which gives gamers and collectors limited accessibilty (ten minutes to 24 hours) to get games for retail price, and later on to get these games as a rule for 50% to 600% the retail price on ebay. (Mind you, ebay scalping clearly is part of the businessmodel as LR itself demonstrated); 2) Let's call it the Soedesco-model of so many smaller publishers which publish games of smaller developers and/or so far only digital on physical disc like Limited Run and just sell it, no marketing with limited numbers and rarity hype, access for months and years for retail price and cheaper than the retail price as a rule.


You avoided answering the Q so far by pointing to LR or the other publishers individually, but never answered the Q about the comparison of the two models.


Limited Run could do it for PS4 games (and the Vita!) like the other small publishers do. No problem there. But their model is risk-minimizing at the cost of consumers. Why doesn't LR publish Vita games without this rarity nonsense?


That the second model works is obvious. It isn't an utopian model in an ideal fantasy world. The proof is in the pudding, otherwise Soedesco and many others would not publish more games than ever and would have gone bankrupt years ago. If you look at the DP-list of games of indie/small developers physical releases it is obvious that Limited Run aren't the holy knights in shiny armor who provide us with water in a desert. On the contrary, we are flooded with these games in the meantime.


Play Asia and Reserve Games (or whatever their name is) step in the same murky water in the meantime like LR. It is nonsense except for Limited Run itself. To euphemistically sell this nonsense as a service to gamers and collectors takes a lot of chuzpe.

[Bojay1997]

Look, it is actually pretty easy, we don't need sideshows and distractions and questionable reasoning. Just answer this one Q:


Which of the following two businessmodels do you prefer as a gamer and collector? 1) the Limited Run model which gives gamers and collectors limited accessibilty (ten minutes to 24 hours) to get games for retail price, and later on to get these games as a rule for 50% to 600% the retail price on ebay. (Mind you, ebay scalping clearly is part of the businessmodel as LR itself demonstrated); 2) Let's call it the Soedesco-model of so many smaller publishers which publish games of smaller developers and/or so far only digital on physical disc like Limited Run and just sell it, no marketing with limited numbers and rarity hype, access for months and years for retail price and cheaper than the retail price as a rule.


You avoided answering the Q so far by pointing to LR or the other publishers individually, but never answered the Q about the comparison of the two models.


Limited Run could do it for PS4 games (and the Vita!) like the other small publishers do. No problem there. But their model is risk-minimizing at the cost of consumers. Why doesn't LR publish Vita games without this rarity nonsense?


That the second model works is obvious. It isn't an utopian model in an ideal fantasy world. The proof is in the pudding, otherwise Soedesco and many others would not publish more games than ever and would have gone bankrupt years ago. If you look at the DP-list of games of indie/small developers physical releases it is obvious that Limited Run aren't the holy knights in shiny armor who provide us with water in a desert. On the contrary, we are flooded with these games in the meantime.


Play Asia and Reserve Games (or whatever their name is) step in the same murky water in the meantime like LR. It is nonsense except for Limited Run itself. To euphemistically sell this nonsense as a service to gamers and collectors takes a lot of chuzpe.

It appears you didn't review any of his previous posts prior to generating your wall of text. He already explained that most of us would prefer unlimited retail runs of PS4 and Vita games. Unfortunately, there is no company out there willing to take the financial risk and potential bankruptcy that comes with pursuing that approach, especially when you consider how many games LRG has already released. Unless you work for Soedesco and have access to their financials, your claim that they are financially viable is pure speculation. Indeed, Soedesco is not a US company and may be receiving government subsidies or perhaps they are funded by individuals who don't care about profit. If the model is so viable, why hasn't Soedesco increased their release frequency or added Vita games to the US releases?

Bottom line, LRG is pursuing a particular business model that allows them to release a ton of games, many of which other publishers would never even consider because of their niche appeal, at generally reasonable prices. It does mean that collectors who care about obtaining the physical copies need to plan ahead a bit and actually spend a minute on their phone or computer every few weeks to order the games. If gamers miss the window, all of these games are available digitally, so there is no reason to claim that LRG is somehow preventing gamers and collectors from enjoying these games.

I have a coupl questions for you. Have you ever run a successful business? Do you have any understanding of the retail and physical games market in this age where digital is becoming dominant by the day? I suspect the answer to both questions is "no", but I remain curious as to your answers.

[lendelin]

Unfortunately, there is no company out there willing to take the financial risk and potential bankruptcy that comes with pursuing that approach, especially when you consider how many games LRG has already released.

That's PR-babble of LR and what is even worse it is ignoring reality, that means ignoring tons of smaller developers which prove otherwise. Just take a look at the publishers of these NTSC and PAL games and then tell me that noone takes a risk and the majority of them are on the edge of bankruptcy. THQ Nordic, 505 games, Badland, Soedesco and so many others?

https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?175339-Complete-and-updated-list-of-PS4-indie-exclusive-limited-regional-physical-releases

Noone did explain to me so far why Limited Run is forced to do the rarity-hype-model in order to prevent bankruptcy while lots of other small publishers manage to be obviously successful.


Indeed, Soedesco is not a US company and may be receiving government subsidies or perhaps they are funded by individuals who don't care about profit.

LOL, are you serious? I am from Germany, and I know our friends from the neighboring state of the Netherlands very well. (We are friends unless it comes to soccer) I know that we Europeans are wonderful people and far superior morally to the rest of the world, but I can assure you that usually game companies don't get government subsidies (geez luiz) and that we Germans and the people from the Netherlands are as profit-oriented, stingy and cheap bastards as the rest of the world.Btw, here is an interesting article about the two guys owning Soedesco in Rotterdam, they had the mission to publish smaller games on physical disc and founded the company before Limited Run was founded. Imagine that! And all of that without the Limited Run-nonsense and Limited Run-hassle.

http://www.nisute.com/2015/05/08/a-deep-dive-into-the-game-publishing-world-of-soedesco/


Bottom line, LRG is pursuing a particular business model that allows them to release a ton of games, many of which other publishers would never even consider because of their niche appeal, at generally reasonable prices.

That's Limited Run PR-babble, and Limited Run wanted Axiom Verge desperately but Badland Games got it. That's how desperate certain developers are in the meantime.



If gamers miss the window, all of these games are available digitally, so there is no reason to claim that LRG is somehow preventing gamers and collectors from enjoying these games.

Seriously? First, I never claimed that. Second, isn't the entire purpose of smaller publishers to offer these games on PHYSICAL DISC and in particular in the case of Limited Run to serve this way our community by limiting the production number? Collectors want physical, not digital. If you refer to the possibility of digital content, then Limited Run is anyway obsolete.



I have a coupl questions for you. Have you ever run a successful business? Do you have any understanding of the retail and physical games market in this age where digital is becoming dominant by the day? I suspect the answer to both questions is "no", but I remain curious as to your answers.

No and yes. No, I never had a successful business (or an unsuccessful one) and don't intend to found one. Yes, I am aware that games (and more media) are distributed digitally. However, I wonder what this has to do with my criticism of Limited Run.

[lendelin]

That's kind of the whole deal, though... it's not about what's good for us. It's about a successful business model, which offers at least a few perks for players. Their goal is to keep customers happy enough to keep spending money. They may even have some good intentions; that's an individual-by-individual situation. However, altruism is secondary at best in business.

I see it from a gamers perspective. I have no horse in the Limited Run stable. That their business model is successful is exactly my concern because it might force other smaller publishers to delve in the same nonsense. Not everything successful makes sense and is good for gamers and collectors. The Wii mote was a catastrophe for gameplay but incredibly successful, still, I called it what it was, a marketing gimmick and awful from a gameplay standpoint.

I certainly don't demand altruism from a game company, I don't live in lala-land! :) I'm not altruistic when I hit the order button, and the game industry was from the beginning about money. But I can clearly see what's good for me and can clearly see that there are different ways to make a profit.

[celerystalker]

I see it from a gamers perspective. I have no horse in the Limited Run stable. That their business model is successful is exactly my concern because it might force other smaller publishers to delve in the same nonsense. Not everything successful makes sense and is good for gamers and collectors. The Wii mote was a catastrophe for gameplay but incredibly successful, still, I called it what it was, a marketing gimmick and awful from a gameplay standpoint.

I certainly don't demand altruism from a game company, I don't live in lala-land! :) I'm not altruistic when I hit the order button, and the game industry was from the beginning about money. But I can clearly see what's good for me and can clearly see that there are different ways to make a profit.

I'm impartial to LRG. I haven't bought any of their releases. I just don't blame them for finding a business model that's successful for them. I don't like a lot of trends, but LRG's business model doesn't bother me a ton because, while inconvenient, it doesn't infringe on my right to enjoy games I've paid for in the future or anything like DRM and digital-only purchases. So, while I have no love or loyalty for them at all, I'm just not upset that they've tried a new business model thatworks. These sorts of things happen, and changes are necessary for physical media retail to remain viable. Companies that don't adapt fail. There will be a time that, for whatever reason, LRG's way of business will no longer work, and they'll have to change again or die off, and that's okay. Companies trying new ideas, though, is just smart. I'm not against those other publishers you mentioned, either. I hope they all continue to find ways to stay relevant, and what I don't like, I won't support.

Edit: also, for those posting so vigorously but clearly barely participate around here, Aussie, one of the MOST active members, isn't a dude.

[lendelin]

I'm impartial to LRG. I haven't bought any of their releases. I just don't blame them for finding a business model that's successful for them. I don't like a lot of trends, but LRG's business model doesn't bother me a ton because, while inconvenient, it doesn't infringe on my right to enjoy games I've paid for in the future or anything like DRM and digital-only purchases. So, while I have no love or loyalty for them at all, I'm just not upset that they've tried a new business model thatworks. These sorts of things happen, and changes are necessary for physical media retail to remain viable. Companies that don't adapt fail. There will be a time that, for whatever reason, LRG's way of business will no longer work, and they'll have to change again or die off, and that's okay. Companies trying new ideas, though, is just smart. I'm not against those other publishers you mentioned, either. I hope they all continue to find ways to stay relevant, and what I don't like, I won't support.

Edit: also, for those posting so vigorously but clearly barely participate around here, Aussie, one of the MOST active members, isn't a dude.

Well, other companies adapt without going the limited production number route with rarity hype. There is no economic necessity to do that. Lots of smaller publishers do physical releases and they deserve praise, Limited Run does not.

[celerystalker]

Well, other companies adapt without going the limited production number route with rarity hype. There is no economic necessity to do that. Lots of smaller publishers do physical releases and they deserve praise, Limited Run does not.

I agree that it's not universally a necessity. It's not about that. The important thing is that it works for them. If enough people tire of it, it'll fail eventually. If enough people support it, it floats. They're trying something new, and as the people risking the capital, it's their right to do so, and it's ours to vote with our money. I have no problem at all with your dislike of LRG's method. I'm not wild about it from a consumer standpoint. However, I can also admire that they've done something very special as a business that is spot on for the times from a business standpoint.

[Aussie2B]

It appears you didn't review any of his previous posts prior to generating your wall of text.

That.

I already answered all of your questions quite clearly, lendelin. And if your initial intention was to not respond, then you would've been better off sticking with that. I have zero intention of continuing a clearly fruitless back and forth, especially when you begin to resort to insults. From my perspective, it is you who are behaving irrational and nonsensical, with the extent to which you are so offended by and afraid of LRG. And it is your reasoning that is based on half-truths at best, complete misinformation at worst. I mean, the whole basis of your last post is this claim that the "vast majority of the games [sell] for 50% up to 600% more expensive" on the secondhand market, but this is patently false, which has been pointed out and explained to you time and time again. At this point, I'm entirely convinced that you have never looked at the values on the secondhand market for any of LRG's titles past the first three. The couple games I mentioned were examples, not the exceptions, and I'm not about to do your homework for you, listing every title and its current secondhand value. And this is just one example of all the facts you continue to ignore, and even claim otherwise about. On top of that, you continue to twist words. I think you're smart enough to realize that when I said that one "shouldn't collect in the first place", I was referring specifically to collecting a full LRG set, with an obsessive-compulsive need to maintain that set, but without the means to do so. In other words, I'm saying that obsessive-compulsive tendencies shouldn't be encouraged if that's a problem for the person in question, especially if those tendencies will lead them to emotional or financial harm. It is absolutely absurd to twist my words such that you'd suggest I mean one shouldn't buy or collect any games unless they have the financial means of you or I.

So to wrap this response up, I suggest you reread what's been said earlier and try to set aside the indignation you feel toward LRG, because clearly it is blinding you from properly absorbing the facts and statements that have been presented to you. In lieu of that, just ignore this thread? I'm sorry if it offends you that this topic is here and that myself and others buy from them, but you have made zero dent in my intention to continue my buying from and posting about LRG.

On that note, my apologies to anyone who may value my updates regarding LRG's releases going up for sale. I had a very busy day and barely had the time to buy DariusBurst at 10am. A sizeable amount of DariusBurst for Vita is apparently still available (funny after the rapid sale of the PS4 version). Maybe the double standard in pricing put a lot of people off. I know it did to me, though I still bought it anyway. (Which makes it funny that I'm accused of being like a "spokesperson" for LRG when I've been a very vocal critic of their pricing of the versions of DariusBurst, to the point that people are defending LRG from me on other forums.) Furi was sold out, but I've noticed that it was opened back up with a few more copies (I guess cancelled orders), so have at it fast. Like Strafe, I'm passing on Furi myself.

[lendelin]

Fully agree that this is certainly a fruitless discussion and I certainly have no intention to continue it (although I'm not so sure who of us is a bit blindsided and misperceives reality and the facts presented).

However, I cannot accept the claim in your uppish response that I resorted to insults. I never do, and I certainly didn't in this discussion. Your skin might be a bit thin when someone disagrees with you and presents a resonable opinion, but I never insulted you once. This is important to me. Otherwise, please let me know how I insulted you and I will apologize.

To end this on a good note I'd like to thank you for your sensible and intelligent approach of my deepest motivations to post in this thread, namely your understanding of me being offended by this thread, offended by and afraid of LRG, and offended by you and others buying the games from LRG. Until now I didn't realize how easily others are able to offend me.

[Aussie2B]

No intention to continue it yet you respond to get in some more jabs?

You called me "nonsensical", "arrogant", and said that I had "bottom of the barrel" reasoning. They may be highbrow insults, but insults nonetheless. And now we can add "uppish" to the list. You even likened my reasoning to defending drunk drivers (and thus likening LRG's business practices to drunk drivers), which is pretty disgusting and offensive to anyone who has suffered because of drunk driving.

Fine, take offense at the suggestion that you're behaving offended by LRG and anyone who has the audacity to buy from them and appreciate the opportunity to buy these games physically. I'm just calling your behavior as I see it, and since you started with all the character judgments and what have you, it seems to be fair play to me.

ANYWAY, I just received Deemo and Broken Age in the mail, and I'm looking forward to popping both in my Vita later. Considering there is no publisher releasing these kinds of games physically in the US on Vita (outside of Fangamer, which will be at a whopping two games after Undertale), I'm confident that these would have never been released physically on Vita in the US without LRG, so I'm pretty happy and thankful to have them in my hands. I almost bought the Asian English version of Deemo a while back too, so I'm glad to have the opportunity to get it cheaper than through importing.

[lendelin]

No intention to continue it yet you respond to get in some more jabs?
You set the example in your last post and delivered a lot of jabs encouriging me to ignore this thread, I did the same. :)



You called me "nonsensical", "arrogant", and said that I had "bottom of the barrel" reasoning. They may be highbrow insults, but insults nonetheless. And now we can add "uppish" to the list. You even likened my reasoning to defending drunk drivers (and thus likening LRG's business practices to drunk drivers), which is pretty disgusting and offensive to anyone who has suffered because of drunk driving.You are easily insulted. I told you that your reasoning is nonsense, that's not an insult, that's an evaluation of your reasoning. Same goes for my evaluation that you hit the bottom of the reasoning-barrel. I showed you why, and I think almost everyone who read it (my drunk driver analogy) will agree. At least I didn't hear something from you against it. (Admit it, it wasn't the smartest thing to say, I admittedly took advantage of it.) I said that your attitude when it comes to the limited means of gamers is "PRETTY arrogant," if you feel insulted by that then you are easily insulted indeed.

People who suffered from drunk driving? Come on, now you are playing the sensitivity card. That's just plain nonsense. (!!) I lost my cousin nine years ago in a car accident in Germany due to a drunk driver, do you think I insulted myself?



Fine, take offense at the suggestion that you're behaving offended by LRG and anyone who has the audacity to buy from them ... I'm just calling your behavior as I see it, and since you started with all the character judgments and what have you, it seems to be fair play to me.

Your last post is indeed 'uppish' and arrogant and actually was the only motivation to respond. (see below) If these are all terrible character judgements (the only ones, btw) which offended you, then I think you have to live with it.

In your last post you wrote


And it is your reasoning that is based on half-truths at best, complete misinformation at worst. I mean, the whole basis of your last post is this claim that the "vast majority of the games [sell] for 50% up to 600% more expensive" on the secondhand market, but this is patently false, which has been pointed out and explained to you time and time again. At this point, I'm entirely convinced that you have never looked at the values on the secondhand market for any of LRG's titles past the first three. The couple games I mentioned were examples, not the exceptions, and I'm not about to do your homework for you, listing every title and its current secondhand value. And this is just one example of all the facts you continue to ignore, and even claim otherwise about.

Since you acted like a HS teacher treating a small child suggesting that I just don't see reality despite you taught me otherwise over and over again, I actually followed your advise and did my "homework." It seems, that you didn't make your homework.

I checked on pricecharting.com every single released Limited Run game for ebay prices, was very easy and pretty fast. I excluded Dariusburst for the PS4 (for Vita anyway) becasue of the high retail price.

Result: The average price for all the LR games (new, PS4 and Vita) is $52.84. Let's assume the average price on LR was $25 (some are $20, some $25, some $30, right?), this is more than 100 percent profit margin for ebay sellers. That's really good and more than I expected. Sure, there are games which can be still had for $30 (Thomas Was Alone, Mystery Chronicle were the cheapest) and some others for a bit over $30 (The Swapper on Vita, The Swindle on Vita) but these are the EXCEPTIONS (not the rule like you suggested due to a lack of knowledge).

You get a lot more on ebay than purchased from LR.

My careful estimate was also correct, as a matter of fact, the empirical check shows that my estimate was too conservative.

According to your own logic my entire post also stands since, according to you, the whole basis for it was my estimate for the games on ebay. (which is actually not true) It wasn't "patently" false as you claimed. It seems that you bragged with knowledge which turned out to be false. (Lesson learned: Never accuse others of ignorant non-knowledge unless you TRULY know better) :)

However, I also checked the average price for the second half of the games since you and I know that the first twenty of these games are expensive compared to the later games (Breach and Clear $216, Oddworld New.. $140 and $149 for the PS4 and Vita, and Saturday Morning RPG (PS4) $135 and $84 (Vita). (I'm never out to just underline my pre-conceived beliefs.)

As I expected and you assumed correctly also, the prices decreased dramatically. From $52.84 to $36.03. The reasons are obvious. However, with an average new LR price of $25 this is still a price increase of 44% on average thanks to ebay and the limited number production. Not as bad as it was, but still very profitable for ebay scalpers.

It might be that your view got skewed by focusing on the cheapest of the cheapest and that it seemed to get better as it actually is compared to the starting point; because the LR games are still an ebay sellers profitable market!

I suggest you check the prices for yourself and correct me if necessary. Used to complex statistics and datasets with a bit more than around sixty cases I know that even a couple of mistakes are neglectible! (will be always over $51)

But you see, this is actually not important. This is not the crux of the whole issue. I only checked the prices for the LR games because you (pretty arrogantly, if I might say) claimed that I am just an ignorant guy who is so full of bad feelings towards LR that I ignore reality.

There is only one Q, and I didn't get an answer so far: While a lot of small publishers sell their games in a traditional way and are successful, why does Limited Run has to resort to sell their games with rarity hype with the underlying tone 'Go get it now before you pay much more on ebay'?

Noone gave me so far an answer. When I first critisized LR, the answer was 'Well, in this day and age and digital content that is the only way.' When I pointed to a lot of other small publishers which do the same, the answer was 'Well, but they face difficult times and hardly survive.' When I pointed out that these publishers do obviously well since they increased dramatically the published games in the last two to three years, the answer was 'Well, without Limited Run we would get fewer games and even no Vita games at all.' Which is all trivial, and still no answer to the Q why Limited Run can only survive this way while other survive well without.

My opinion stands. Limited Run sets a very bad precedent, and the way they sell games is good for Limited Run and truly bad for gamers and colllectors.

[celerystalker]

The answer to your question is simply that LRG's purpose as a business isn't just to stay afloat and survive; it's to be as profitable as possible. Businesses have the responsibility not to just stick around, but to pile up as much money as they can while retaining customers. All of these companies across the board, above all else they do, are trying to make as much money as they can, and they're all trying different approaches. LRG's approach is clearly working for them.

That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if you or me or anyone else dislikes them so long as they can keep enough people buying in, and they owe us nothing. If they cross lines like Microsoft did to cause a massive groundswell against them when they announced all their DRM plans with the Xbox One, they'll lose faith. As long as they can keep that target 5000 or so people happy, which in this industry is an entirely reasonable and achievable goal, they'll keep piling up cash, and that's okay, because that's their job.

You're asking the wrong question in the first place here. Nobody says you're wrong not to like LRG. Where you're wrong is to expect any business to stop trying to make as much money as possible and settle for less. That's not what companies do. LRG believes that this is their most profitable, sustainable prospect. So the real question isn't "why do they have to do this." It's "why, from a company position, shouldn't they?"

Because some people don't like it?

It'd be great for me if ebay fronted all shipping costs, if Wal-Mart banned customers I don't like, and if Taco Bell gave me extra cheese for free. They don't, because even though it would be swell for me, it would be stupid for them.

Nobody disagrees with your right to dislike these practices. Everybody disagrees that they owe it to gamers to change. The only people to which LRG owes anything at all are their debtors, employees, and their bottom line. The only thing you can hope to do is hope that more people share your views, stop buying, and that LRG is forced to yet again adapt. However, the folks with which you are arguing here are smart enough to understand that, yes, LRG is grabbing for as much money as possible, and yes, they're okay with that for the payoff it gives them. You aren't opening their eyes with new revelations that should shake their views. You're telling them what they already have come to terms with and are expecting outrage.

[megasdkirby]

I like Limited Run Games, I really do. However, I've been noticing that they are now trying to squeeze in as many releases as they can, usually now every two weeks. Before, it wasn't like this.

I believe this is because they know that the games will eventually sell. By releasing a very limited amount of copies, it almost guarantees that all copies will sell. If they were to release them via retail, sales my stagnate a bit, though it would eventually sell as well, due to the limited amount of copies. They know collectors will eat the games up as quickly as they appear, so they continue this business model. It works...for now.

What I see as a huge "fault" is the consistency and continuity of their releases. For instace, I am getting tired of a "new release" every two weeks. It used to not be this way...perhaps every three weeks or even four. Sometimes twice a month. That was great, because it almost guarantees that I could purchase a copy. And I know many of you would appreciate this as well.

But releasing every two weeks has become cumbersome. Just when I thought I had some time for the next release, BAM, a new release. Sigh. And being the OCD that I am, I want to get it. Others as well. But I feel that there will be a time in which people will eventually get tired of this schedule and ultimately not get every release, which in turn takes more time to sell the batch they are selling. I've noticed that lately, games have been lasting more than usual when "up" for sale. Just look at Darius for the Vita...Sunday and it's STILL available. Honestly, that was surprising for me. Granted, the hefty price doesn't help either.

Which come to my next point...and I hope it's not one that will become a trend: the increase in price. Having games at $25-$30 was great, as they were economical. But I've noticed that certain games (not all, just the minority) have been priced higher than others, sometimes (in my opinion) way too high. Example is Darius for Vita (and the last Vita game, the Namco one). Yes, I understand that these games are from companies that probably want a higher cut and thus they need to increase the price. I just hope this doesn't start to be "the norm".

My suggestion to LRG is to space out the releases in a way that benefits everything and not try to "milk" them every two weeks. I know many of us would be happy. Why not every three weeks? Once a month? And maybe every now and then, twice a month? Because I feel that if they continue this trend, they will loose many potential customers, or at the very least not be able to sell their inventory as they did before.

And to try to limit the high price games. And to due away with UPS Innovations...HORRID HORRID service. I've seen complaints on their FB page...and I agree. It now takes a damn MONTH to receive their games when it used to take me less than a week. Ugh.

And wow, Saturday Morning RPG is fetching THAT much? My brother is now considering selling his copy. :)

[lendelin]

I like Limited Run Games, I really do. However, I've been noticing that they are now trying to squeeze in as many releases as they can, usually now every two weeks. Before, it wasn't like this.

I believe this is because they know that the games will eventually sell. By releasing a very limited amount of copies, it almost guarantees that all copies will sell. If they were to release them via retail, sales my stagnate a bit, though it would eventually sell as well, due to the limited amount of copies. They know collectors will eat the games up as quickly as they appear, so they continue this business model. It works...for now.

What I see as a huge "fault" is the consistency and continuity of their releases. For instace, I am getting tired of a "new release" every two weeks. It used to not be this way...perhaps every three weeks or even four. Sometimes twice a month. That was great, because it almost guarantees that I could purchase a copy. And I know many of you would appreciate this as well.

But releasing every two weeks has become cumbersome. Just when I thought I had some time for the next release, BAM, a new release. Sigh. And being the OCD that I am, I want to get it. Others as well. But I feel that there will be a time in which people will eventually get tired of this schedule and ultimately not get every release, which in turn takes more time to sell the batch they are selling. I've noticed that lately, games have been lasting more than usual when "up" for sale. Just look at Darius for the Vita...Sunday and it's STILL available. Honestly, that was surprising for me. Granted, the hefty price doesn't help either.

Which come to my next point...and I hope it's not one that will become a trend: the increase in price. Having games at $25-$30 was great, as they were economical. But I've noticed that certain games (not all, just the minority) have been priced higher than others, sometimes (in my opinion) way too high. Example is Darius for Vita (and the last Vita game, the Namco one). Yes, I understand that these games are from companies that probably want a higher cut and thus they need to increase the price. I just hope this doesn't start to be "the norm".

My suggestion to LRG is to space out the releases in a way that benefits everything and not try to "milk" them every two weeks. I know many of us would be happy. Why not every three weeks? Once a month? And maybe every now and then, twice a month? Because I feel that if they continue this trend, they will loose many potential customers, or at the very least not be able to sell their inventory as they did before.

And to try to limit the high price games. And to due away with UPS Innovations...HORRID HORRID service. I've seen complaints on their FB page...and I agree. It now takes a damn MONTH to receive their games when it used to take me less than a week. Ugh.

And wow, Saturday Morning RPG is fetching THAT much? My brother is now considering selling his copy. :)


I completely agree! The number of games released wouldn't be such a problem (except for gamers getting tired of it, and that will be a big prob) if you could get the games later for a reasonable price and cheaper than Limited Run sells them. I just got a couple of days ago Steamworld Collection (Rising Star) and Ziggurat (SOEDESCO) for $15 each! That's how I like to buy my games. I have already a lot of the games by smaller publishers, but I still have a list in Word which is almost two pages.

But with this LR-sales model (rarity hype plus ebay scalping) this possibility is more than slim. There are so many games out there by smaller publishers that the two games a month-cycle of LR stresses the budget of gamers; and then imagine others copy this sales model because they have to adapt and it cuts severely into their business.

Ghost Blade HD will be very soon on sale by Play Asia. A Play Asia exclusive limited to 3000 COPIES WORLDWIDE! Incredible. Ghost Blade HD will also be published sometime by LR, it is scheduled already, probably limited to 4000 COPIES WORLDWIDE. Incredible! Maybe Special Reserve Games will give us a cover variation of 1000 copies of Ghost Blade HD (WORLDWIDE, of course). :)

[lendelin]

I have to correct myself. Some might find the following sticklish but it just bothers me when I was incorrect and a bit off to my advantage.

I stated originally that the "vast majority(!) of LR games fetch on ebay 50% to 600% more of the original LR-price." I checked the numbers again and I can't say that the term 'vast majority' is correct. In reality 75% (43) of the total games I checked (58) sell for plus 50% of the original LR price. 25% do not. 75% can't be called a 'vast majority'.

I apologize for that.

However, it can be said that a vast majority of LR games, namely 85%, sell for more than 40% (!) of the original LR price, up to 600%; latter is of course Breach and Clear.

I was surprised how much this sales model drives the prices up. Even more recent releases like Ray Gigant ($45), Astebreed ($48) or Flinthook ($42) cost some money and get some profit on ebay.

Higher in demand games just skyrocket under this model. A good example is Shantae Pirate's Curse although it was certainly not an early release. For the Nintendo 3DS it is $24, the Limited Run game for the PS4 is $109 (!), the PS4 regular release Shantae Half Genie Hero is $33. (the latter is a GREAT game, btw; buy it if you love platformers with a Metroid-like twist).

It seems that Limited Run Games itself was absolutely correct and gave great advice in their recent email about 'Strafe': "The standard version of the game sold out several weeks ago and is already fetching several times the original retail price on secondary markets. (...) - head over to our site now and grab a copy!"

[Bojay1997]

I like Limited Run Games, I really do. However, I've been noticing that they are now trying to squeeze in as many releases as they can, usually now every two weeks. Before, it wasn't like this.

I believe this is because they know that the games will eventually sell. By releasing a very limited amount of copies, it almost guarantees that all copies will sell. If they were to release them via retail, sales my stagnate a bit, though it would eventually sell as well, due to the limited amount of copies. They know collectors will eat the games up as quickly as they appear, so they continue this business model. It works...for now.

What I see as a huge "fault" is the consistency and continuity of their releases. For instace, I am getting tired of a "new release" every two weeks. It used to not be this way...perhaps every three weeks or even four. Sometimes twice a month. That was great, because it almost guarantees that I could purchase a copy. And I know many of you would appreciate this as well.

But releasing every two weeks has become cumbersome. Just when I thought I had some time for the next release, BAM, a new release. Sigh. And being the OCD that I am, I want to get it. Others as well. But I feel that there will be a time in which people will eventually get tired of this schedule and ultimately not get every release, which in turn takes more time to sell the batch they are selling. I've noticed that lately, games have been lasting more than usual when "up" for sale. Just look at Darius for the Vita...Sunday and it's STILL available. Honestly, that was surprising for me. Granted, the hefty price doesn't help either.

Which come to my next point...and I hope it's not one that will become a trend: the increase in price. Having games at $25-$30 was great, as they were economical. But I've noticed that certain games (not all, just the minority) have been priced higher than others, sometimes (in my opinion) way too high. Example is Darius for Vita (and the last Vita game, the Namco one). Yes, I understand that these games are from companies that probably want a higher cut and thus they need to increase the price. I just hope this doesn't start to be "the norm".

My suggestion to LRG is to space out the releases in a way that benefits everything and not try to "milk" them every two weeks. I know many of us would be happy. Why not every three weeks? Once a month? And maybe every now and then, twice a month? Because I feel that if they continue this trend, they will loose many potential customers, or at the very least not be able to sell their inventory as they did before.

And to try to limit the high price games. And to due away with UPS Innovations...HORRID HORRID service. I've seen complaints on their FB page...and I agree. It now takes a damn MONTH to receive their games when it used to take me less than a week. Ugh.

And wow, Saturday Morning RPG is fetching THAT much? My brother is now considering selling his copy. :)

LRG's pricing has been explained a few times, but it's essentially the digital price plus $10. That seems reasonable to me for a physical copy of a game with case and cover insert. It's true that there have been a greater proportion above the $25 price point recently, but that's been mostly because they have released some titles that were higher profile from larger developers. With regard to the release schedule, LRG has indicated that they plan to slow it down as soon as they work through the titles they signed for 2017. Personally, I am happy with the twice monthly schedule and would rather they keep up the volume, but I think they understand the market can only sustain so much and the greater number of competitors will eat into their sales going forward.

[Bojay1997]

I completely agree! The number of games released wouldn't be such a problem (except for gamers getting tired of it, and that will be a big prob) if you could get the games later for a reasonable price and cheaper than Limited Run sells them. I just got a couple of days ago Steamworld Collection (Rising Star) and Ziggurat (SOEDESCO) for $15 each! That's how I like to buy my games. I have already a lot of the games by smaller publishers, but I still have a list in Word which is almost two pages.

But with this LR-sales model (rarity hype plus ebay scalping) this possibility is more than slim. There are so many games out there by smaller publishers that the two games a month-cycle of LR stresses the budget of gamers; and then imagine others copy this sales model because they have to adapt and it cuts severely into their business.

Ghost Blade HD will be very soon on sale by Play Asia. A Play Asia exclusive limited to 3000 COPIES WORLDWIDE! Incredible. Ghost Blade HD will also be published sometime by LR, it is scheduled already, probably limited to 4000 COPIES WORLDWIDE. Incredible! Maybe Special Reserve Games will give us a cover variation of 1000 copies of Ghost Blade HD (WORLDWIDE, of course). :)

If everyone waits to buy small publisher games until the price drops well below MSRP like you did, the small publishers will collapse. Businesses are in business to make money, not to sell you goods at a sharp discount so you can feel good about saving money. If you like to buy your games at a discount, that's fine. You just won't be able to do that with LRG or most of their competitors because selling games below MSRP in a small print run is not possible when the model depends on paying the developer up front and the printing and replication costs are basically fixed.

[megasdkirby]

Ghost Blade HD is going to be released by LRG as well? It better have the same awesome features if they wish to sell it at the $30 or $25 price. Im after the Play Asia version, since it has more stuff for the same price. This may be the first LRG I may pass on (since I hope to get it through Play Asia).

Speaking of which, when is it supposed to be available live? I gave my email and nothing for now.

I Think it sold out...I NEVER got an email from them.

[lendelin]

Ghost Blade HD is going to be released by LRG as well? It better have the same awesome features if they wish to sell it at the $30 or $25 price. Im after the Play Asia version, since it has more stuff for the same price. This may be the first LRG I may pass on (since I hope to get it through Play Asia).

Speaking of which, when is it supposed to be available live? I gave my email and nothing for now.

I Think it sold out...I NEVER got an email from them.

I never had problems with them. Pre-order for Ghost Blade HD starts on June 27th, 11am Honkong Time. They haven't sent an email yet, if you are on the pre-order email list you'll get one.

Unfortunately, Play Asia copies now with a couple of games the LR-nonsense. Dariusburst was a regular release, even a bit cheaper than the game from LR, but Cursed Castilla EX and Blue Rider (which I both wanted and bought), were sold in a similar way. I liked them more w/o the limited production numbers business. At least the entire company is not centered around this sales-model.

[lendelin]

If everyone waits to buy small publisher games until the price drops well below MSRP like you did, the small publishers will collapse. Businesses are in business to make money, not to sell you goods at a sharp discount so you can feel good about saving money. If you like to buy your games at a discount, that's fine. You just won't be able to do that with LRG or most of their competitors because selling games below MSRP in a small print run is not possible when the model depends on paying the developer up front and the printing and replication costs are basically fixed.

You and others stress always that LR is a business which tries (like every business since ancient times, and I always accepted that) to optimize their profit and are in it for the money, and now you demand from ME altruism? As a consumer I'm part of the business cycle, and I'm not allowed to be as egotistical as Limited Run? I'm for profit optimization and cost reduction too -- my own! They are not a charity organization, neither am I.

The games drop in price sometime after release, that's normal. I don't know the details of the contracts between smaller publishers and smaller developers, neither do you. It is not my task to do their cost calculation and deal with the eternal enemy of every business -- unpredictability. If Limited Run, Soedesco, Maximum Games and all the other small publishers can't get their cost calculation right afetr some years of experience, they should get and will get out of business. I can only evaluate their businessmodel and open my wallet accordingly.

Besides, I bought this console generation already a lot of games for new retail prices, for my taste too many. :) Overall, the game industry and smaller publishers earned a lot of money with my purchases since 1988, and also certainly in the last three years.

(PS: Never thought that I have to defend myself for getting games a bit cheaper on a gaming website.) :)

[Bojay1997]

You and others stress always that LR is a business which tries (like every business since ancient times, and I always accepted that) to optimize their profit and are in it for the money, and now you demand from ME altruism? As a consumer I'm part of the business cycle, and I'm not allowed to be as egotistical as Limited Run? I'm for profit optimization and cost reduction too -- my own! They are not a charity organization, neither am I.

The games drop in price sometime after release, that's normal. I don't know the details of the contracts between smaller publishers and smaller developers, neither do you. It is not my task to do their cost calculation and deal with the eternal enemy of every business -- unpredictability. If Limited Run, Soedesco, Maximum Games and all the other small publishers can't get their cost calculation right afetr some years of experience, they should get and will get out of business. I can only evaluate their businessmodel and open my wallet accordingly.

Besides, I bought this console generation already a lot of games for new retail prices, for my taste too many. :) Overall, the game industry and smaller publishers earned a lot of money with my purchases since 1988, and also certainly in the last three years.

(PS: Never thought that I have to defend myself for getting games a bit cheaper on a gaming website.) :)

You don't have to do anything and as others have pointed out, you're within your rights not to support or like LRG or any other publisher. I will tell you as someone who works for a major entertainment company that used to make a signifiant share of its revenue from home video sales and video games that when consumers in large numbers wait for massive discounting or simply lose interest in a product category, that the publishers will either scale back the number of releases or simply get out of the business altogether. That's how business works. When games are discounted, the publisher generally has to give a credit or refund to the distributor who then passes that on to the retailer. Selling you a physical game at $15 makes any profit margin almost non-existent which does have a very real impact on the bottom line of everyone down the line (developer, publisher and retailer) since there are certain fixed costs (packaging, replication, shipping, inventory storage, overhead, etc...) that do not similarly get reduced.

[lendelin]

You don't have to do anything and as others have pointed out, you're within your rights not to support or like LRG or any other publisher. I will tell you as someone who works for a major entertainment company that used to make a signifiant share of its revenue from home video sales and video games that when consumers in large numbers wait for massive discounting or simply lose interest in a product category, that the publishers will either scale back the number of releases or simply get out of the business altogether. That's how business works. When games are discounted, the publisher generally has to give a credit or refund to the distributor who then passes that on to the retailer. Selling you a physical game at $15 makes any profit margin almost non-existent which does have a very real impact on the bottom line of everyone down the line (developer, publisher and retailer) since there are certain fixed costs (packaging, replication, shipping, inventory storage, overhead, etc...) that do not similarly get reduced.

That's the problem of the publisher. I can't do their cost calculations. It's fourty years since I did at a college-prep school for economics in Germany all kinds of cost calculations even using calculus, and even back then I found it terribly boring. :) Obviously. Soedesco got it down and they are doing it right, at least they are publishing more and more games and even among them great ones.

I have around ten games by Soedesco on my shelves, for half of them I paid the normal retail price. I consider myself a good and rational customer. :)

[Bojay1997]

That's the problem of the publisher. I can't do their cost calculations. It's fourty years since I did at a college-prep school for economics in Germany all kinds of cost calculations even using calculus, and even back then I found it terribly boring. :) Obviously. Soedesco got it down and they are doing it right, at least they are publishing more and more games and even among them great ones.

I have around ten games by Soedesco on my shelves, for half of them I paid the normal retail price. I consider myself a good and rational customer. :)

Sure, but if the publisher goes out of business and nobody picks up the slack, there simply won't be physical releases of certain games. Soedesco may or may not be profitable. All I know is that they have repeatedly delayed their upcoming four releases in the US and I suspect there will be further delays with some of them. They are also more than happy to partner with Play Asia to do a "limited" version of Aerea. As such, Soedesco is engaged in some of the very same profiteering you are complaining about.

[megasdkirby]

LRG's pricing has been explained a few times, but it's essentially the digital price plus $10. That seems reasonable to me for a physical copy of a game with case and cover insert. It's true that there have been a greater proportion above the $25 price point recently, but that's been mostly because they have released some titles that were higher profile from larger developers. With regard to the release schedule, LRG has indicated that they plan to slow it down as soon as they work through the titles they signed for 2017. Personally, I am happy with the twice monthly schedule and would rather they keep up the volume, but I think they understand the market can only sustain so much and the greater number of competitors will eat into their sales going forward.

Oh thank goodness. And thanks for the info on the $10 hike, as it gives me an idea on how much the release will cost. Will help quite a bit.

[megasdkirby]

Available NOW!

http://www.play-asia.com/ghost-blade-hd-limited-edition-play-asiacom-exclusive/13/70b9b9

[megasdkirby]

Not really part of LRG, but what ever happened to the physical version of Mages of Mystralia? The Kickstarter one?

[Aussie2B]

I dunno if there's supposed to be a standalone PC physical release, but LRG is doing the physical PS4 release of Mages of Mystralia, but that can't happen until it's at least out digitally on PSN first.

[megasdkirby]

Ah ok, thanks.

I paid for the $100 Canadian version of it, which included the game. But since I havent heard anything of it, I was getting worried.

Thanks!

[Aussie2B]

https://twitter.com/LimitedRunGames/status/880908208860266496

Sighs, I just knew they were gonna make it Master System-themed. :/ The game's cover better be reversible because I do not want to look at that ugly tribute to hideous Master System covers. This trend of people being nostalgic for things that are all but objectively bad has got to stop. Just because the Master System was a part of some people's childhoods doesn't make the covers good and sure as hell doesn't mean that people should imitate and pay homage to bad art.

Anyway, LRG announced LawBreakers (PC and PS4) today as well as catalog numbers, print run sizes, release dates, etc. for a number of other releases that are coming fairly soon. Check the opening post for the info. The PC collector's edition of LawBreakers is open to unlimited preorders right now, which will be closed on July 7th, after that day's regular releases go on sale.

[kupomogli]

^You didn't make a new post about Lawbreakers.

Finally glad to see we got a LRG physical release of Lawbreakers. Preserving online only games that'll be dead within a few months to 10 years has always been a dream of mine. I love collecting games that I can use as drink coasters rather than something I can actually play in the future.(/s)

After all the complaints, LRG is like, well we're not numbering it so you don't have to feel as if you're forced to get it(even LRG knows that people's OCD will force them to buy every single copy to make sure they have a complete set.) But even though this was said, this is still a game that's online only, a game that preserving a physical release is pointless aside from the obvious money grab. LRG states that it's a big release so they'll get more exposure. They've already had random big name releases here and there; Shadow Complex(large publisher,) One Way Heroics(large publisher,) Shantae, Oddworld, Firewatch. The only exposure preserving an online only game will get you is that you're a money grab. Sure, it's from Cliff Bleszinski(Gears, Unreal Tournament) but it's stlll an online only game.

You know how to get more exposure? Stop these shitty money grab releases when you could instead be releasing something else worthwhile.

[Aussie2B]

^You didn't make a new post about Lawbreakers.

??? What are you talking about? I mentioned it in my previous post, and I also added its info to the opening post. Other than spreading the news and info for those who do care, I have zero interest in it and have nothing else to say about it. I don't play first-person shooters, and I've never bought any of LRG's PC releases (or any of their unnumbered releases, period). I've also stopped buying their PS4 releases unless it's a game I'm strongly interested in and its only physical release is on PS4 (which, right now, amounts to Wonder Boy being the only PS4 LRG release on the horizon that I'm planning to buy). I'm not gonna buy LawBreakers in any form, not digital nor through LRG.

[Bojay1997]

^You didn't make a new post about Lawbreakers.

Finally glad to see we got a LRG physical release of Lawbreakers. Preserving online only games that'll be dead within a few months to 10 years has always been a dream of mine. I love collecting games that I can use as drink coasters rather than something I can actually play in the future.(/s)

After all the complaints, LRG is like, well we're not numbering it so you don't have to feel as if you're forced to get it(even LRG knows that people's OCD will force them to buy every single copy to make sure they have a complete set.) But even though this was said, this is still a game that's online only, a game that preserving a physical release is pointless aside from the obvious money grab. LRG states that it's a big release so they'll get more exposure. They've already had random big name releases here and there; Shadow Complex(large publisher,) One Way Heroics(large publisher,) Shantae, Oddworld, Firewatch. The only exposure preserving an online only game will get you is that you're a money grab. Sure, it's from Cliff Bleszinski(Gears, Unreal Tournament) but it's stlll an online only game.

You know how to get more exposure? Stop these shitty money grab releases when you could instead be releasing something else worthwhile.

There are plenty of online only games that have had CEs in recent years. Personally, this LE interests me because I was planning on buying the game anyway and for $20 more, you get a nice box and some small items. Clearly it's not for everybody and that's fine. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything and it's obvious you don't like LRG or their business practices, so how about you just go ahead and stop buying from them to put your money where your mouth is? Of course, you won't because you're nothing but a blowhard who likes to complain and not actually use that energy in a way that can create anything positive here or in the world. It's really sad.

[kupomogli]

There are plenty of online only games that have had CEs in recent years.

Yeah, and their business model wasn't built off of "preservation of digital only media." Where the hell is the preservation if you can't play it in 20 years.


Nobody is forcing you to buy anything and it's obvious you don't like LRG or their business practices, so how about you just go ahead and stop buying from them to put your money where your mouth is? Of course, you won't because you're nothing but a blowhard who likes to complain and not actually use that energy in a way that can create anything positive here or in the world. It's really sad.

I'm not buying Lawbreaker or any other LRG that disinterests me, so I am "putting my money where my mouth is." Problem is, it won't do anything, just like people bitch about season passes and day one DLC and nothing is going to ever change. I've never bought day one DLC or season passes, and what do you know, they're still there.

What is this though? After the E3 2017 release of all the games they have coming up, "oh, but those are games they already have under contract." Now they mention Lawbreakers. Let me guess, another game they've already had under contract? LRG isn't so widespread that their bs practices can't be resolved by public outcry, problem is, there's so many apologists that bend over and take it, that would defend these shady and scummy business practices to the death, that this shit may as well be as widespread as the above mentioned day one DLC and season passes, because there's just people who don't want to hear logical reasoning. They've already got the lube ready for next go round.

Hope you're still enjoying that drink coaster 20 years from now. Maybe you can pass it down to one of your children or their children so they can use it as a drink coaster as well.

*edit*

I wasn't going to bother posting about anymore of their bs, because they have a line up of some quality games coming up(including Furi which already released) but then again they pull some bs with Lawbreakers. Also because I don't have any interest in PC I didn't mention it. But not only are they "preserving" an online only game, they're "preserving" the PC version of this online only game with a one time use Steam code, it doesn't even come with a disc Yet you're stilll going to just act like LRG isn't money grabbing with this release.

[Bojay1997]

Yeah, and their business model wasn't built off of "preservation of digital only media." Where the hell is the preservation if you can't play it in 20 years.



I'm not buying Lawbreaker or any other LRG that disinterests me, so I am "putting my money where my mouth is." Problem is, it won't do anything, just like people bitch about season passes and day one DLC and nothing is going to ever change. I've never bought day one DLC or season passes, and what do you know, they're still there.
What is this though? After the E3 2017 release of all the games they have coming up, "oh, but those are games they already have under contract." Now they mention Lawbreakers. Let me guess, another game they've already had under contract? LRG isn't so widespread that their bs practices can't be resolved by public outcry, problem is, there's so many apologists that bend over and take it, that would defend these shady and scummy business practices to the death, that this shit may as well be as widespread as the above mentioned day one DLC and season passes, because there's just people who don't want to hear logical reasoning. They've already got the lube ready for next go round.

Hope you're still enjoying that drink coaster 20 years from now. Maybe you can pass it down to one of your children or their children so they can use it as a drink coaster as well.

*edit*

I wasn't going to bother posting about anymore of their bs, because they have a line up of some quality games coming up(including Furi which already released) but then again they pull some bs with Lawbreakers. Also because I don't have any interest in PC I didn't mention it. But not only are they "preserving" an online only game, they're "preserving" the PC version of this online only game with a one time use Steam code, it doesn't even come with a disc Yet you're stilll going to just act like LRG isn't money grabbing with this release.

Their business model is selling limited runs of things, including soundtracks and while a big part of their appeal and mission is to preserve physical copies of formerly digital only releases, it's certainly their right to expand the scope of their offerings if and when they decide to do so. Moreover, consumers have a choice to buy this or not to buy it which is always a positive thing. Are you saying consumers shouldn't have more choices? Like I said, nobody is forcing you or anyone else to buy this or anything they sell. They don't run a blind subscription model or require you to buy this or any other release to have the right to buy the next release.

Are you saying that if you had a small niche company and one of the bigger developers out there gave you the opportunity to raise your profile by giving you an exclusive on their next big release and that developer also happened to be a personal hero to you and a local company that you would pass? Do you bitch when Fangamer or Indiebox or Iam8Bit or any other similar company sells merchandise for games that they don't make available physically? I mean it's kind of ironic that you keep mentioning Furi because on the PC, it requires Steam and Indiebox is essentially selling a PC version physically that will similarly be useless if the servers ever go down. Are they just money grabbing or are they providing another choice that consumers are free to embrace or not embrace?

Honestly, your arguments and attacks on Limited Run Games make no sense at all. Some people like myself are interested in owning some physical manifestation of digital games even if for a game like this it's not really possible to own a physical copy of the game that will be playable in perpetuity. It's clearly not for everyone but it's not your right to tell me or anyone else what I can or shouldn't buy. It's not like LRG giving people one more option harms you or anyone else in any way. If you had any moral backbone, you'd stop buying their stuff completely. Of course, you won't do that because you don't have really have any valid reason to do so and because deep down you know you're just trolling for the sake of trolling. You're either jealous of their success or unable to control your collecting urges so instead you lash out anonymously which is sad for you and a waste of time for the rest of us.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I agree. No reason to lash out.

At this point, LRG has grown considerably and releases upwards of six games a month. That's a lot of money to be spending on physical copies of games I mostly already own, so frankly I'm glad when they put out games I'm not interested in, and the diversity is great. Many different developers across a wide array of genres, and different tiers of some games. I want Wonderboy 3 physical, but I'm okay with just the game, I don't need that big deluxe version. I'd be pissed off if the ONLY way to get it was to buy that deluxe version -- I have no problem with their current model of doing things.

The only complaint I have against LRG is the cost of shipping. It does and should not cost $15 USD to ship a single videogame from the US to Canada. That's bull, especially since the price is $15 if you buy two games that are on sale at the same time.

If their shipping costs are going to be that way, then I would like them to allow the option for the buyer to request they hold shipping until their next purchase. There have been a few cases already where I'll buy a single game and pay $15 for shipping, and then two weeks later buy another game and again have to pay $15 shipping. I'd like it if they could be shipped together, since the price is the same.

[Aussie2B]

Now they mention Lawbreakers. Let me guess, another game they've already had under contract? LRG isn't so widespread that their bs practices can't be resolved by public outcry

What does this even mean? While games get canceled for other reasons, I can't think of one example in the entire history of video games where a game has been licensed and announced for release and then later the publisher is like "Because of fan feedback, we're not gonna release this after all". It's not like LRG is developing and releasing LawBreakers themselves. They're working with another company, and once contracts are signed, breaking them could result in lawsuits.


If their shipping costs are going to be that way, then I would like them to allow the option for the buyer to request they hold shipping until their next purchase. There have been a few cases already where I'll buy a single game and pay $15 for shipping, and then two weeks later buy another game and again have to pay $15 shipping. I'd like it if they could be shipped together, since the price is the same.

They do have this, it's just buried at the bottom of their site: https://limitedrungames.com/pages/holding-orders

[Aussie2B]

Bard's Gold and Rive have been put up for sale. It's also the last day to preorder the PC collector's edition of LawBreakers, if you want to combine that with today's regular releases to save on shipping.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

They do have this, it's just buried at the bottom of their site: https://limitedrungames.com/pages/holding-orders

Whoa, I didn't know that! But I read it and it seems....super confusing.


From what I understand of that, you have to pay $5.50 USD to have the game(s) shipped from their warehouse to their head office.

But do you also pay for the game(s) when you do this, or do you pay for the game(s) once all games you want are collected at their office?

[Aussie2B]

It's just a fake address. They're not actually getting shipped anywhere until the customer makes the request to have everything shipped out to their own address. You'll pay for the games and the domestic shipping rate when each order is placed. I assume when people "purchase" "Ship Items", LRG will either request or refund some of the shipping fees, depending how many orders are being combined. But that's just my guess since I'm located in the US and have never used this. I did use their previous hold system, which, believe it or not, was even more convoluted. You could open a ticket with their customer support if you'd like more definitive answers.

[Aussie2B]

The first batch of Jotun for PS4 is now up for sale. I'm not sure what happened to Lili, since that was originally announced as releasing today too, but the developer of Jotun insisted that the contract have a stipulation stating that Jotun would be the only game for sale on the day it goes up (which is rather arrogant and anti-consumer of them, in my opinion, but what can ya do). Good luck to those trying to keep up with this flood of PS4 games from LRG lately. I'll be sitting out until Oceanhorn and Plague Road on Vita myself.

[lendelin]

Just a reality check:

Jotun was sold out this morning after 5 Minutes (!). The second batch in the the evening sold out after a couple of minutes.

But don't worry if someone of you missed the 5-minute window. These games just don't disappear 'pouf' and are not available anymore. You can still buy Jotun already on ebay for $60 to $90. It already sold from $45 to $90. A wonderful service to gamers from a company which is dedicated to preserve digital-only games and make it easily available to all of us who have the time and money to afford them.

LR hit the nail on its head when they gave us the advice to head over to their website before we pay lots of money on ebay. LR has truly gamers and collectors in mind, no surprise, they are gamers and collectors themselves.

It is very important in this day and age to support a fledgling small company like LR which would face bankruptcy if not for this sales-model and their releases of 7 games in one month. I am very sure they would not be viable anymore like 505 games, THQ Nordic, Soedesco, Rising Star and so many others which are all doomed and hardly sell any games. I have a measly 123 games on my 'to-buy-'list from these smaller publishers which sell their games in a regular fashion, and I own already around 40 of them.

LR, however, in order to survive has to sell their games with the hype about rarity (which appeals to the collector in all of us) and ebay scalping which they considered in their marketing from the getgo.

After LR sold (...out, of course) Rive, Bard's Gold and Jotun this month already, in one week NeuroVoider and Drive! Drive! Drive! will be for sale; and one week later Plague Road and Oceanhorn will be sold. This makes 7 different games this month alone (!), 10 games for two platforms, not considering the pre-order for Lawbreakers.

Sure, you don't have to buy them all, but be aware to get the games you want from LR and not from ebay. Like a well-trained dog you should sit at your laptop at 10am Eastern Time and always be aware of the time! There is no rest for the wicked. Everyone of these numerous games are still unique and will be rare one day! It is like with us human beings: Everyone of us is an individual and unique worldwide, don't worry that this uniqueness applies to all of us individuals which makes us very common and regular editions.

I am very sure that the other small publishers look at LR with admiration. I am very sure the LR-salesmodel does not cut into their business in this niche market for gamers and collectors who all have limited budgets. If the other small publishers will truly discover their altruistic gene, however, we'll soon have hopefully more companies like Limited Run in order to serve us gamers and collectors well. We will be all one happy family getting more digital games on physical discs watching small sales-windows and enjoying ebay scalpers afterwards.

It is still up to us which games we buy and where we buy it, so no one is restrained in their freedom and restricted in their choices. It is a great service overall which outweighs small pittiful disadvantages; and if we have all these choices, who dares to be critical about the LR-salesmodel since we are not forced to buy anything? If a lot of gamers and ebay scalpers buy these games and make LR a success and ebay scalpers happy we'll soon have a number of smaller developers following in the LR-footsteps. All will be good.

[Bojay1997]

Just a reality check:

Jotun was sold out this morning after 5 Minutes (!). The second batch in the the evening sold out after a couple of minutes.

But don't worry if someone of you missed the 5-minute window. These games just don't disappear 'pouf' and are not available anymore. You can still buy Jotun already on ebay for $60 to $90. It already sold from $45 to $90. A wonderful service to gamers from a company which is dedicated to preserve digital-only games and make it easily available to all of us who have the time and money to afford them.

LR hit the nail on its head when they gave us the advice to head over to their website before we pay lots of money on ebay. LR has truly gamers and collectors in mind, no surprise, they are gamers and collectors themselves.

It is very important in this day and age to support a fledgling small company like LR which would face bankruptcy if not for this sales-model and their releases of 7 games in one month. I am very sure they would not be viable anymore like 505 games, THQ Nordic, Soedesco, Rising Star and so many others which are all doomed and hardly sell any games. I have a measly 123 games on my 'to-buy-'list from these smaller publishers which sell their games in a regular fashion, and I own already around 40 of them.

LR, however, in order to survive has to sell their games with the hype about rarity (which appeals to the collector in all of us) and ebay scalping which they considered in their marketing from the getgo.

After LR sold (...out, of course) Rive, Bard's Gold and Jotun this month already, in one week NeuroVoider and Drive! Drive! Drive! will be for sale; and one week later Plague Road and Oceanhorn will be sold. This makes 7 different games this month alone (!), 10 games for two platforms, not considering the pre-order for Lawbreakers.

Sure, you don't have to buy them all, but be aware to get the games you want from LR and not from ebay. Like a well-trained dog you should sit at your laptop at 10am Eastern Time and always be aware of the time! There is no rest for the wicked. Everyone of these numerous games are still unique and will be rare one day! It is like with us human beings: Everyone of us is an individual and unique worldwide, don't worry that this uniqueness applies to all of us individuals which makes us very common and regular editions.

I am very sure that the other small publishers look at LR with admiration. I am very sure the LR-salesmodel does not cut into their business in this niche market for gamers and collectors who all have limited budgets. If the other small publishers will truly discover their altruistic gene, however, we'll soon have hopefully more companies like Limited Run in order to serve us gamers and collectors well. We will be all one happy family getting more digital games on physical discs watching small sales-windows and enjoying ebay scalpers afterwards.

It is still up to us which games we buy and where we buy it, so no one is restrained in their freedom and restricted in their choices. It is a great service overall which outweighs small pittiful disadvantages; and if we have all these choices, who dares to be critical about the LR-salesmodel since we are not forced to buy anything? If a lot of gamers and ebay scalpers buy these games and make LR a success and ebay scalpers happy we'll soon have a number of smaller developers following in the LR-footsteps. All will be good.

For someone who claims not to support or care about LRG, you seem awfully aware of every detail of their business. Good news though, LRG's contracts are not exclusive after release, so your beloved THQ, Sodesco, 505 and Rising Star are free to approach the same developers just like Play Asia did with Soldner-X and release as many copies of each LRG release as they want. Maybe you should help them do that and invest your own time and money since you know so much about business and such.

[lendelin]

For someone who claims not to support or care about LRG, you seem awfully aware of every detail of their business. Good news though, LRG's contracts are not exclusive after release, so your beloved THQ, Sodesco, 505 and Rising Star are free to approach the same developers just like Play Asia did with Soldner-X and release as many copies of each LRG release as they want. Maybe you should help them do that and invest your own time and money since you know so much about business and such.

I critisized LRG, that means I care a lot about them, doesn't it? Based on this discussion I looked closer at LR and the closer I looked, the worse it gets.

The old and repeated reasoning that the LR deals are not exclusive and others can follow up with publications is true but nonsensical defending the LR-salesmodel. In this small and limited market once a game is released means that it is over for a re-release (as a rule).

I never loved companies. (Not even Nintendo) I'm not part of a fanbase nor do I identify with a company.

The rest of your comment is cynical nonsense. (I love cynicism but only the kind which makes sense.) :)

[Satoshi_Matrix]

One of the things I don't like is how some games have massive leadtimes while others seem to pop out out of nowhere.

We've known about Drive Drive Drive for four of five months, while Jotun only two or three weeks before.

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, that gets annoying. It's more or less the developers' fault. LRG lets them decide when to reveal the physical run, and some wait till practically the last minute. And then with Jotun, there's their special request. With such a busy release schedule this summer, last Friday was about the only time they could squeeze in Jotun without anything else going up for sale. And the busy release schedule is also why Drive! Drive! Drive! kept getting put off. Too many other games that had to come out first for whatever reason, and LRG attempts (but kinda fails) to not throw too many games at buyers at once. It's really silly when you think about it because they've had the manufactured copies of Drive! Drive! Drive! in their hands for probably weeks now and it still hasn't been sold, meanwhile Jotun was sold and hasn't even been manufactured yet.

[Bojay1997]

I critisized LRG, that means I care a lot about them, doesn't it? Based on this discussion I looked closer at LR and the closer I looked, the worse it gets.

The old and repeated reasoning that the LR deals are not exclusive and others can follow up with publications is true but nonsensical defending the LR-salesmodel. In this small and limited market once a game is released means that it is over for a re-release (as a rule).

I never loved companies. (Not even Nintendo) I'm not part of a fanbase nor do I identify with a company.

The rest of your comment is cynical nonsense. (I love cynicism but only the kind which makes sense.) :)

Yes, you are seemingly obsessed with them as you have now posted in this thread multiple times with walls of text attacking them. I'm guessing you missed an early release and rather than try again, you're more content to just complain about them repeatedly.

The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.

Like I said, if there was such a massive market for retail or even more voluminous releases of these games, other companies could and would step up and do their own releases. I don't love companies either, but I also don't hate them. It's a waste of time and energy. I've said it before, but bitching about LRG is not going to change anything and if you don't like what they're doing, that's cool, but the rest of us are actually enjoying a lot of games that would never get a physical release otherwise.

[Aussie2B]

Not from LRG, but I figured those who buy LRG releases would probably be interested that Undertale for PS4/Vita/PC (both standard copies and collector's editions) are now available for preorder from Fangamer:

https://www.fangamer.com/products/undertale-ps4-vita

[lendelin]

Yes, you are seemingly obsessed with them as you have now posted in this thread multiple times with walls of text attacking them. I'm guessing you missed an early release and rather than try again, you're more content to just complain about them repeatedly.

I have lots of weaknesses, obsession was never one of them! :) Btw, insinuations are cheap and don't contribute a thing to a substantial diuscussion. Rather, they are a sign of quitting reasoning.

Nope, I never missed an early release because I only tried ONCE. I bought only ONE LR game, namely Dariusburst for the PS4 after I got it from PlayAsia a bit cheaper w/o limited production numbers. :)


The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.

This is a very convenient 10-minute-sales window. Incredible. Thought about others whose time schedule is not as flexible as yours? And doesn't successful ebay scalping contradict your notion that even 5minute-sales windows are convenient and not a big obstacle for a purchase for many?


Like I said, if there was such a massive market for retail or even more voluminous releases of these games, other companies could and would step up and do their own releases. I don't love companies either, but I also don't hate them. It's a waste of time and energy. I've said it before, but bitching about LRG is not going to change anything and if you don't like what they're doing, that's cool, but the rest of us are actually enjoying a lot of games that would never get a physical release otherwise.

Back to square 1. This reasoning works only if you ignore a dozen small publishers who put digital only games from small developers on disc. And no, they are not on the edge of bankruptcy as you once said, and no, they are not government subsidized and are not non-profit, as you once suggested.

I merely crtisize the LR salesmodel for what it is, bad for gamers and bad for collectors. Hyppocritical PR-babble from LR doesn't change a thing that this is a company centered around rarity hype and even uses ebay scalping as a threat to sell their games.

Your notion that you and others are free to buy games and I'm free not to buy games, is a given and trivial. You are free to buy, I am free to buy, you can refuse to buy like me, you can disagree with me and vice versa, we are all free and lay in chains. These trivialities are used by soft dictators to suppress dissenting opinions and dont make sense.

What kind of an attitude is this? I critisize a novel and get the answer 'No one forces you to buy and read it!' I critisize a salesmodel of VW, and the defense is 'No one forces you to buy their cars!' I critisize a game and you say 'No one forces you to buy it and play it. Let us others enjoy it!' I critisize a snakeoil salesman and you say 'no one forces you to buy the snake oil.'

This kind of reasoning is meaningless and is only used to shut down a discussion because you can't stand disagreements.

[SparTonberry]

The LRG sales model works fine. I've never missed a release and it literally takes me two minutes on my phone to buy what I want. I don't have to plan my life around it or worry about it or do anything other than whip my phone out from wherever in the world I might be and two minutes later, I'm done.
Oh good, you have a time schedule that permits you to make those purchases on time.
Not everybody has that luxury.

Not to mention it's a "good for gamers" business when you are threatened to buy games now or pay ebay scalper prices later, should you, in case later decide you actually WANT the game. Completely ridiculous that anobody WOULDN'T have their mind made up about whether they want to purchase it BEFORE it's released, isn't it?
Do they have an option where you can give them your bank account number so they can bill you for every purchase to expedite the process of blindly buying everything they release? :P

[Aussie2B]

I decided to stop buying their PS4 releases specifically because I concluded that, if I change my mind on any and decide I want it later on, I feel confident that the vast majority of what's coming out these days I could later buy on eBay for around the same price or only slightly more for a sealed copy or wait for an opened one and get an even better deal. Personally, I don't mind much if I end up having to pay an extra 10-20 bucks. Unless somebody is psychic, that's gonna happen all the time with game shopping regardless. I'll wait too long to buy a game, and it'll end up more expensive than had I bought it earlier. Or I'll think a game is at a good price and I'll snatch it up, only to see it get marked down even further. That's just life.

Anyway, more interesting, LRG announced that Ys Origin is coming August 25, and the same day will have another unannounced Japanese RPG (I think multiplatform; it's definitely on Vita either way). I'm really eager to find out what it is. It's a shot in the dark, but I've been hoping that maybe LRG could sign a deal with Kemco and get some of their retro-style RPGs (the ones first developed for mobile and then ported elsewhere) physically released. I enjoyed End of Serenity and still have to get around to playing Mystic Chronicles. Those I just bought digitally since they were PSP releases and definitely aren't going to come out physically. But the PS4 and Vita have Asdivine Hearts and Revenant Saga, and I've been holding off on buying on the off chance of physical releases.

[Bojay1997]

Oh good, you have a time schedule that permits you to make those purchases on time.
Not everybody has that luxury.

Not to mention it's a "good for gamers" business when you are threatened to buy games now or pay ebay scalper prices later, should you, in case later decide you actually WANT the game. Completely ridiculous that anobody WOULDN'T have their mind made up about whether they want to purchase it BEFORE it's released, isn't it?
Do they have an option where you can give them your bank account number so they can bill you for every purchase to expedite the process of blindly buying everything they release? :P

There are two purchase windows for each game eight hours apart. Unless you literally work in a prison or some environment where you have no ability to check your phone for literally two minutes, there is really no way that anyone can claim they don't have the ability to purchase the games. Moreover, not every game sells out instantly or even within a day or two. I mean how hard is it to make up your mind about whether or not you want to own a particular game, the majority of which have been available digitally for months or in some cases years?

By the way, if they had a subscription service, I would sign up in a heartbeat. I have subscribed to Indiebox since the beginning and I love it.

[Bojay1997]

I have lots of weaknesses, obsession was never one of them! :) Btw, insinuations are cheap and don't contribute a thing to a substantial diuscussion. Rather, they are a sign of quitting reasoning.

Nope, I never missed an early release because I only tried ONCE. I bought only ONE LR game, namely Dariusburst for the PS4 after I got it from PlayAsia a bit cheaper w/o limited production numbers. :)



This is a very convenient 10-minute-sales window. Incredible. Thought about others whose time schedule is not as flexible as yours? And doesn't successful ebay scalping contradict your notion that even 5minute-sales windows are convenient and not a big obstacle for a purchase for many?



Back to square 1. This reasoning works only if you ignore a dozen small publishers who put digital only games from small developers on disc. And no, they are not on the edge of bankruptcy as you once said, and no, they are not government subsidized and are not non-profit, as you once suggested.

I merely crtisize the LR salesmodel for what it is, bad for gamers and bad for collectors. Hyppocritical PR-babble from LR doesn't change a thing that this is a company centered around rarity hype and even uses ebay scalping as a threat to sell their games.

Your notion that you and others are free to buy games and I'm free not to buy games, is a given and trivial. You are free to buy, I am free to buy, you can refuse to buy like me, you can disagree with me and vice versa, we are all free and lay in chains. These trivialities are used by soft dictators to suppress dissenting opinions and dont make sense.

What kind of an attitude is this? I critisize a novel and get the answer 'No one forces you to buy and read it!' I critisize a salesmodel of VW, and the defense is 'No one forces you to buy their cars!' I critisize a game and you say 'No one forces you to buy it and play it. Let us others enjoy it!' I critisize a snakeoil salesman and you say 'no one forces you to buy the snake oil.'

This kind of reasoning is meaningless and is only used to shut down a discussion because you can't stand disagreements.

Again, please explain to me who this group of people is that can't check a smartphone or the Internet for two minutes in two separate windows eight hours apart? I mean I have literally purchased LRG games from multiple countries around the world while walking down the street and while on a plane 30,000 feet in the air. That also doesn't even take into account the multiple games that have lasted for hours or even days without selling out. I mean should Soedesco, THQ and the others be forced to keep their games in print for many years just so you can buy them at a discount or make up your mind years from now? At some point, every sales model is "limited" and while you may prefer the retail model (and frankly, I do as well), there are just some games that would not do well in greater quantities or being sold at traditional retail outlets. That's why I believe the LRG model is actually great for gamers and collectors as some of these games would never have a chance to be released physically otherwise.

As for your other points, you have made your position clear as have I. Arguing about it is pointless because LRG will continue to exist, it will continue to be successful and those of us who want to buy their games will continue to do so and reap the enjoyment from doing so. Complaining about the same thing repeatedly on an Internet forum is pointless and you aren't changing anything by doing it. Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.

[lendelin]

Again, please explain to me who this group of people is that can't check a smartphone or the Internet for two minutes in two separate windows eight hours apart? I mean I have literally purchased LRG games from multiple countries around the world while walking down the street and while on a plane 30,000 feet in the air. That also doesn't even take into account the multiple games that have lasted for hours or even days without selling out. I mean should Soedesco, THQ and the others be forced to keep their games in print for many years just so you can buy them at a discount or make up your mind years from now? At some point, every sales model is "limited" and while you may prefer the retail model (and frankly, I do as well), there are just some games that would not do well in greater quantities or being sold at traditional retail outlets. That's why I believe the LRG model is actually great for gamers and collectors as some of these games would never have a chance to be released physically otherwise. As for your other points, you have made your position clear as have I. Arguing about it is pointless because LRG will continue to exist, it will continue to be successful and those of us who want to buy their games will continue to do so and reap the enjoyment from doing so. Complaining about the same thing repeatedly on an Internet forum is pointless and you aren't changing anything by doing it. Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.

Your total acceptance and defenses of all the acknowledged (!) disadvantages of the LR salesmodel (limited accessibility, small purchase windows, ebay scalping!) is based on one assumption which doesn't hold up: The LR salesmodel is the only way to get these games to us. If you believe that, then you are ignoring reality.

There is a dozen of publishers out there which prove every month that the normal retail route is not only possible but successful and profitable. We would get these games of LR by other publishers (!), we don't have to hail this company which follows intentionally and explicitly the route 'Buy it now from us or you might pay later a lot more on ebay'. It is a very convenient way for a company at the cost of gamers and collectors to eliminate the uncertainty factor Number One for a business, namely the uncertainty about the final sales numbers. It gives LR a competitive advantage over their competitors for sure, but at which price? Pay the retail price now in a 10-minute sales window before the release or pay lots more later on ebay.

Why then in the world should I respect a company which follows such a terrible sales strategy for us gamers if other small publishers go the normal retail route and put great niche/digital- games on physical disc? I don't have any respect for the owners of LR, nice guys as they might be, they should rather stand in a corner be ashamed of themselves, instead, they are laughing all the way to the bank defended by a very active fanbase often with fanbase-arguments scraping the bottom of the reasoning barrel.

Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning and still does?

And, no, I don't think that opinions on Internet forums change the world or that I would even put a dent in the well-running LR-car by expressing my opinion about this company. But if you can express your positive opinion about LR what a great company it is to serve us gamers well, do I have your permission to express my criticism about LR? If you like to insinuate again that I am "obsessed" with this company, I think your immediate responses whenever I post something and your foot-soldier attitude toward LR might shed the 'obsession'-light upon yourself. :)


Like I said, if you're so confident in your beliefs, put your money where your mouth is and do what some of LRGs competitors are doing and start a competing business or re-release the games in a different model.

In all seriousness, this is one of the stupidest things I ever read on an Internet forum. I should start my OWN BUSINESS in order to prove that it is possible to go for these kind of games the normal retail route? First, can you go a bit lower? :) , second, this is done already by the dozens, I have around 120 PS4 games on my list for these games from smaller publishers, third, it is not about RE-RELEASING games from LR!! Once released, this niche-market is not big enough for a re-release as a very big rule. The lack of re-releases is your reasoning that the LR-way is the only way? Not good, not good at all. :)

Thank god Inside/Limbo won't be a LR release. We'll get a regular release, no 5 minute purchase-window even if a buy is possible 30 000 feet high above in the air, no ebay scalping for about $100 one day after the release date, a terrible thought. I don't know how these companies do it, they must be wizards.

[lendelin]

I decided to stop buying their PS4 releases specifically because I concluded that, if I change my mind on any and decide I want it later on, I feel confident that the vast majority of what's coming out these days I could later buy on eBay for around the same price or only slightly more for a sealed copy or wait for an opened one and get an even better deal. Personally, I don't mind much if I end up having to pay an extra 10-20 bucks. Unless somebody is psychic, that's gonna happen all the time with game shopping regardless. I'll wait too long to buy a game, and it'll end up more expensive than had I bought it earlier. Or I'll think a game is at a good price and I'll snatch it up, only to see it get marked down even further. That's just life.

Anyway, more interesting, LRG announced that Ys Origin is coming August 25, and the same day will have another unannounced Japanese RPG (I think multiplatform; it's definitely on Vita either way). I'm really eager to find out what it is. It's a shot in the dark, but I've been hoping that maybe LRG could sign a deal with Kemco and get some of their retro-style RPGs (the ones first developed for mobile and then ported elsewhere) physically released. I enjoyed End of Serenity and still have to get around to playing Mystic Chronicles. Those I just bought digitally since they were PSP releases and definitely aren't going to come out physically. But the PS4 and Vita have Asdivine Hearts and Revenant Saga, and I've been holding off on buying on the off chance of physical releases.

This is a very rational and reasonable attitude I share for 20 years now when it comes to buying games. The check on ebay about LR-prices showed, however, that a stagnation on the original retail price cannot be expected in all likelihood. You pay more over time for LR-games, as a rule, while the general rule for regular releases w/o the LR-nonsense is that you pay less over time and you can wait for a price drop.

Btw, I hope also that a small publisher (not necessarily LR) will pick up some of the great Kemco RPGs, very often I miss nowadays this great feeling of simplicity and challenge of an NES or SNES RPG; and if it is quirky like Undertale, the better.

[Bojay1997]

Your total acceptance and defenses of all the acknowledged (!) disadvantages of the LR salesmodel (limited accessibility, small purchase windows, ebay scalping!) is based on one assumption which doesn't hold up: The LR salesmodel is the only way to get these games to us. If you believe that, then you are ignoring reality.

There is a dozen of publishers out there which prove every month that the normal retail route is not only possible but successful and profitable. We would get these games of LR by other publishers (!), we don't have to hail this company which follows intentionally and explicitly the route 'Buy it now from us or you might pay later a lot more on ebay'. It is a very convenient way for a company at the cost of gamers and collectors to eliminate the uncertainty factor Number One for a business, namely the uncertainty about the final sales numbers. It gives LR a competitive advantage over their competitors for sure, but at which price? Pay the retail price now in a 10-minute sales window before the release or pay lots more later on ebay.

Why then in the world should I respect a company which follows such a terrible sales strategy for us gamers if other small publishers go the normal retail route and put great niche/digital- games on physical disc? I don't have any respect for the owners of LR, nice guys as they might be, they should rather stand in a corner be ashamed of themselves, instead, they are laughing all the way to the bank defended by a very active fanbase often with fanbase-arguments scraping the bottom of the reasoning barrel.

Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning and still does?

And, no, I don't think that opinions on Internet forums change the world or that I would even put a dent in the well-running LR-car by expressing my opinion about this company. But if you can express your positive opinion about LR what a great company it is to serve us gamers well, do I have your permission to express my criticism about LR? If you like to insinuate again that I am "obsessed" with this company, I think your immediate responses whenever I post something and your foot-soldier attitude toward LR might shed the 'obsession'-light upon yourself. :)



In all seriousness, this is one of the stupidest things I ever read on an Internet forum. I should start my OWN BUSINESS in order to prove that it is possible to go for these kind of games the normal retail route? First, can you go a bit lower? :) , second, this is done already by the dozens, I have around 120 PS4 games on my list for these games from smaller publishers, third, it is not about RE-RELEASING games from LR!! Once released, this niche-market is not big enough for a re-release as a very big rule. The lack of re-releases is your reasoning that the LR-way is the only way? Not good, not good at all. :)

Thank god Inside/Limbo won't be a LR release. We'll get a regular release, no 5 minute purchase-window even if a buy is possible 30 000 feet high above in the air, no ebay scalping for about $100 one day after the release date, a terrible thought. I don't know how these companies do it, they must be wizards.

Bottom line, I just have never had a single issue buying their games and either have thousands of other people. I mean you can sit here and shake your fist and complain that the world doesn't work the way you want it to, but other than complaining for the sake of complaining, it's pointless. LRG is not willing to take the same kind of financial risk that companies like Soedesco, THQ and others are willing to take on. That decision is neither right or wrong, it's what they believe is necessary to run their business. The downside of that decision is that they do sales in a specific way that doesn't accommodate everyone. It's unfortunate, but that's the way life is. I don't think there's anything else to say.

[lendelin]

Bottom line, I just have never had a single issue buying their games and either have thousands of other people.

How do you explain then that 85% of the LR-games sell for 40% to 600% over the retail price, high in demand games go for around $100 and more? Could it be that your experience is not the experience of a lot of gamers and collectors? Could it be that a lot of gamers have a monthly limited budget for games and cannot buy LR games right away? Could it be that lots of gamers have jobs which don't allow them to interrupt work exactly at 10am or 6pm, and if they are 10 minutes too late it is anyway too late as a rule? However, if 25% of the games go to ebay scalpers I admit that they certainly can make time to get the games.



I mean you can sit here and shake your fist and complain that the world doesn't work the way you want it to, but other than complaining for the sake of complaining, it's pointless.

Trust me, if I would shake the fist and complain about the world like Abe Simpson it would NOT be about a game company. :) I don't complain for the sake of complaining either, that would be psychologically sick.



LRG is not willing to take the same kind of financial risk that companies like Soedesco, THQ and others are willing to take on.

This is very true!



That decision is neither right or wrong, it's what they believe is necessary to run their business.

It's not about right or wrong, it is not a moral Q, it is about what is best or worse for gamers and collectors. It is about the Q which consequences the LR salesmodel has. If you justify every decision just because it is the best decision for the decisionmakers, then no criticism of politicians, companies, interest groups, agencies, policies and so many others isn't possible.



The downside of that decision is that they do sales in a specific way that doesn't accommodate everyone.

That's true and a classical euphemism.



It's unfortunate, but that's the way life is. I don't think there's anything else to say.

Yep, fortunately for us there are other smaller companies out there which give us great games from smaller developers on physical disc in a regular way w/o obstacles. 'Unfortunately' LR does not. Unfortunately LR doesn't consider what is best for gamers and collectors unlike other small developers.


The central Q remains:Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning?

[kupomogli]

Actually, that does make a lot of sense, and I never thought of it that way. The way LRG does their business model and as often as they release games, forces people who are invested to ignore other releases both indie and AAA budget alike because they know that they can always get them but they can't with LRG. So in that sense, these other companies are actually losing money by not doing what LRG is doing, so this is in reality harmful to gaming industry as a whole, especially indie publishers who don't have the money that AAA publishers do. This could mean these other indie publishers are producing less product because being in the same niche market that LRG in, all of any potential sales are being lost due to the "they'll always be available, but LRG won't for any sort of reasonable price if I don't do this right now" mentality from the consumer.

[lendelin]

Actually, that does make a lot of sense, and I never thought of it that way. The way LRG does their business model and as often as they release games, forces people who are invested to ignore other releases both indie and AAA budget alike because they know that they can always get them but they can't with LRG. So in that sense, these other companies are actually losing money by not doing what LRG is doing, so this is in reality harmful to gaming industry as a whole, especially indie publishers who don't have the money that AAA publishers do. This could mean these other indie publishers are producing less product because being in the same niche market that LRG in, all of any potential sales are being lost due to the "they'll always be available, but LRG won't for any sort of reasonable price if I don't do this right now" mentality from the consumer.

There is no doubt in my mind that LR cuts into the business of smaller developers like 505 Games, ThQ Nordic, Rising Star, Badland Games, Soedesco and many others because of their fool-proof and terrible sales model; in particular in a small niche market with limited budget of every customer the tendency to reward LR by buying their games right away based on a very short availability for retail price and punish the other developers because they have the decency to go the normal retail route is certainly there.

This is one of the reasons I post in this thread.

One reason is a irrational one, the other one is a very rational one.

The irrational one: It irks me to see that LR has an overall positive reputation and is acknowledged for actually a very questionable and hurtful salesmodel while other companies which deserve our respect don't get the credit. Why this good rep of LR exist despite their salesmodel is explainable, but another topic.

The rational one: The successful model gets copied. That's the real danger I see of Limited Run's salesmodel not for the industry as a whole but for the small niche market of small publishers to get their games on disc. For the entire game industry this market hardly plays a role at all. We are not talking here GTA, Final Fantasy or Uncharted sales numbers.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that other small publishers will try to go the route of the LR salesmodel. If you have a salesmodel like LR you live in paradise because you eliminate the uncertainty about final sales numbers. Your profit and cost calculations have a high accuracy. 'Special Reserve Games' or whatever their name is, and even Play Asia with a couple of games now (I think 7) tout their games now with limited production numbers worldwide. 'Aerea' by Soedesco is getting a regular release but also a limited release by Play Asia.

If I were the owner of one of these small developers and would face a heavy competitor like LR with 4 to 8 releases every month which sell out within minutes, I certainly would think about taking a similiar route. Maybe founding a subsidiary with some name recognition like 'Collectors Box' or a similar nonsensical name, and limit the production numbers to around 3000.

However, I don't think that the market would sustain 4 or 5 game companies like LR with the same amount of game releases. Even the flood of LR games is tiresome for gamers already and certainly the 'uniqueness' is gone if you get so many 'unique' games. However, the danger of popping up so many game companies which go the LR route is certainly there; and if that happens, the bubble will burst and the entire nonsense will be obvious for everyone. The consequence might be that smaller indie games will have a harder time to be put on disc becasue of a general mistrust by developers that these kind of games are not profitable. A once growing niche market would experience a crisis.

I do not predict that this will happen, there are a lot of 'ifs', but I see a danger in the success of Limited Run. I don't doubt that more companies like LR will try to be successful, the Q is how many.

[Bojay1997]

How do you explain then that 85% of the LR-games sell for 40% to 600% over the retail price, high in demand games go for around $100 and more? Could it be that your experience is not the experience of a lot of gamers and collectors? Could it be that a lot of gamers have a monthly limited budget for games and cannot buy LR games right away? Could it be that lots of gamers have jobs which don't allow them to interrupt work exactly at 10am or 6pm, and if they are 10 minutes too late it is anyway too late as a rule? However, if 25% of the games go to ebay scalpers I admit that they certainly can make time to get the games.




Trust me, if I would shake the fist and complain about the world like Abe Simpson it would NOT be about a game company. :) I don't complain for the sake of complaining either, that would be psychologically sick.




This is very true!




It's not about right or wrong, it is not a moral Q, it is about what is best or worse for gamers and collectors. It is about the Q which consequences the LR salesmodel has. If you justify every decision just because it is the best decision for the decisionmakers, then no criticism of politicians, companies, interest groups, agencies, policies and so many others isn't possible.




That's true and a classical euphemism.




Yep, fortunately for us there are other smaller companies out there which give us great games from smaller developers on physical disc in a regular way w/o obstacles. 'Unfortunately' LR does not. Unfortunately LR doesn't consider what is best for gamers and collectors unlike other small developers.


The central Q remains:Just explain to me why you are defending LR with their disadvantegous sales model while other companies prove again and again that the sales model you prefer works just fine? Doesn't ebay scalping bother you? And if yes, what do you think about a company which encourages ebay scalping even including ebay scalping in their sales strategy from the beginning?

First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.

Conflating a private business with politicians and the government who work for us as taxpayers is absurd. If you were spending your time trying to make political or social change, you would have my full support. As it stands, spending your time going after a small but successful business seems like a huge waste of time.

I support LRG because they provide better customer service and more interaction with their customers than any other game company large or small that I am aware of. They are also focused on always improving things, whether that's their packaging, adding a rewards program, pursuing ultra niche releases that no other publisher would even consider or supporting an entire platform in the Vita that 505, Soedesco, THQ and Rising Star won't support in the US. Do you really believe that your beloved retail publishers would have touched Mutant Mudds or Bard's Gold with a ten foot pole? There is literally no way, they are just far too niche.

LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing.

As for LRG's business model, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. They announce in advance how many copies will be available, they open up orders at two set times on a Friday and everyone has an equal shot to get the games. They impose purchase limits where appropriate and do their best to meet demand. Unlike Gaijinworks or some of LRG's competitors, with very few exceptions, LRG ships the games within a week or two of purchase.

Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints.

Frankly, in the case of LRG, their model depends on quick sell outs and one unfortunate side effect of that is that scalpers feel like they can make a few bucks getting in between LRG and their customers. Thankfully, all it takes is a tiny bit of planning on the part of the customer to spend the two minutes it takes to get whatever releases you are interested in. Anything worth having in life is worthy of doing a tiny bit of work and if despite your efforts you still can't get the game you want, the great thing about the current market is that every LRG release is available (often much more cheaply) in digital format. As such, I don't have an issue with LRG or its business model and I happily buy all their releases, as well as all of the other niche releases that come out physically from every other publisher.

[lendelin]

First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.Conflating a private business with politicians and the government who work for us as taxpayers is absurd. If you were spending your time trying to make political or social change, you would have my full support. As it stands, spending your time going after a small but successful business seems like a huge waste of time.I support LRG because they provide better customer service and more interaction with their customers than any other game company large or small that I am aware of. They are also focused on always improving things, whether that's their packaging, adding a rewards program, pursuing ultra niche releases that no other publisher would even consider or supporting an entire platform in the Vita that 505, Soedesco, THQ and Rising Star won't support in the US. Do you really believe that your beloved retail publishers would have touched Mutant Mudds or Bard's Gold with a ten foot pole? There is literally no way, they are just far too niche. LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing. As for LRG's business model, it's perfectly fine in my opinion. They announce in advance how many copies will be available, they open up orders at two set times on a Friday and everyone has an equal shot to get the games. They impose purchase limits where appropriate and do their best to meet demand. Unlike Gaijinworks or some of LRG's competitors, with very few exceptions, LRG ships the games within a week or two of purchase. Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints. Frankly, in the case of LRG, their model depends on quick sell outs and one unfortunate side effect of that is that scalpers feel like they can make a few bucks getting in between LRG and their customers. Thankfully, all it takes is a tiny bit of planning on the part of the customer to spend the two minutes it takes to get whatever releases you are interested in. Anything worth having in life is worthy of doing a tiny bit of work and if despite your efforts you still can't get the game you want, the great thing about the current market is that every LRG release is available (often much more cheaply) in digital format. As such, I don't have an issue with LRG or its business model and I happily buy all their releases, as well as all of the other niche releases that come out physically from every other publisher.


This is a lot of euphemistic babble which sounds like a LR press release, too much to reply in a meaningful way. Let me address just two things:


Ebay scalping is not something that LRG created and I'm not aware of any limited edition, collector's edition, Nintendo release or collectible item related to video gaming that isn't being scalped by someone nowadays. Even many retail games end up getting scalped as many retail publishers are reluctant in today's market to do reprints...

First of all, most of the copies of LRG games do not end up on Ebay. They end up in the hands of gamers and collectors like the people who post in this thread. Of those that do end up on Ebay at inflated prices, many sit there and don't sell short of the seller cutting the price. The fact that most LRG games that are listed for highly inflated prices generally don't sell is strong evidence that supply is not that far off from demand on most releases.

1. Ebay scalping: It is not a Q if LR engages in ebay scalping, or if they invented it, or if they founded ebay. The fact is that LR tailors their businessmodel towards ebay scalpers, and then uses ebay scalping to push customers to buy their games. You draw a big separation line between LR and ebay scalping as an unfortunate and unavoidable consequence of modern times. That's not the case.

You and others and LR itself were very well aware of ebay scalping as soon as LR put limited production numbers on their games. You had to be a fool not to predict what happens next. Just read the first page of this thread shorty after LR was founded. Some expressed concern if the games would sell well enough, and then pointed to ebay scalping as an assurance that LR will sell their stock.

Quote: "And I suspect it'll go decently well for them since, even if the games stink, there are always collectors who want a rarity and scalpers who think they can make a buck off of rare games."

The answer to this post of the LR-guys themselves who went on a couple of websites to create a fanbase:

"Thank you for your support and understanding." (page 1, post #11, 10-15-2015)

And just a couple of weeks ago, when Strafe was sold, we all got in the mail this advertisement from Limited Run:

"The standard version of the game sold out several weeks ago and is already fetching several times the original retail price on secondary markets. (...) - head over to our site now and grab a copy!"

No, ebay scalping is not an unfortunate, unavoidable aftertaste of a wonderful heroic company. First, they created explicitly in interviews rarity hype (!) with the result of ebay scalping, and then they instrumentalize ebay scalping to push for sales of their games. A great company indeed. Artificially deflate the supply and artificially inflate the demand proved to be very successful.

And your reasoning that potentially everything nowadays, even my own toothbrush, might be a victim to ebay scalping reminds me of the reasoning that every game since Adam and Eve is potentially rare. It is ridiculous. LR actively uses ebay scalping as a sales strategy, while Nintendo, Sony, 505 Games or Soedesco do not although ebay scalpers use their products. Inflated ebay prices shortly after the release of a game happen but are very rare exceptions (in particular for indie games!), while they are the rule for LR games as the check for ebay prices clearly showed. And the reasoning that the majority of the games despite ebay scalping are in the hands of gamers and collectors is again euphemistic babble. If 60% were in the hands of gamers and 40% in the hands of scalpers, would that be satisfying? And should we really check additionally on the frequency of actual sales of the LR games on ebay? I think you'd be surprised.

The check of the average actual ebay prices for all the LR-games, but also in particular the high-in-demand games, showed that the factor 'ebay scalping' of the LR sales strategy works well indeed. The company achieved its goal. Once there is factual rarity hype of past games, it re-enforces rarity hype and drives sales of current games because they MIGHT (not necesserily are) pricey already a week after release. Rarity hype lives from uncertainty and the 'maybe'.

The nonsensical defense- and justification-reasoning can only be explained by this:


LRG are also gamers, collectors and developers and have a rare entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for what they are doing. Most importantly, they are putting out more games than all of the other niche Playstation physical publishers on a monthly basis proving to me at least that people support their model and embrace what they are doing.

2. Fanbase creation: Your identification level with this company is incredibly high. You like these guys and admire them. They are like us, actually, you could be one of them. They created 'we' and 'us', and as soon as someone critisizes LR it is 'us' against 'them'. You accepted and swallowed everything bad and disadvantegous associated with their salesmodel. Everyone can see that their marketing strategy has only bad aspects for gamers and collectors, but you as part of them are no longer a customer, you are part of their business, and consequently, everything which helps them also helps you and -magically- everyone of us.

It was indeed a smart move of the LR-guys to go on websites like DP in this thread and flattering posters. This way they created a fanbase which roots for support and had high hopes that this company will do well.

I truly could understand your position IF Limited Run were the only company who puts great digital games on physical discs; but there were from the beginning of the LR-times other companies which started to do the same and don't rely on such a questionable salesmodel. Once in awhile a company puts production numbers on a game, see the collector editions of Tales of Zestiria and Tales of Berseria. In particular the latter immediately became the object of ebay scalpers to a disgusting extent. Limited Run put this bad program for regular releases in their name, centered their business model around rarity hype, created limited accessibility re-enforcing rarity hype as a fertile ground for ebay scalping. Good for them because they sell their stock of games, bad for us because they are doing it at the cost of gamers and collectors. Limited accessibility and inflated ebay prices are not a good service for gamers and collectors. Sales of these games can be done in a very different manner.

Soedesco has already or will release Rogue Stormers, 8-bit Armies, World to the West (!), Pharaonic and The Girl and the Robot within just two months. All of them nichey games on physical disc. We'll also get Matterfall (!), Inside/Limbo (!, 505 Games), and The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth+, and these are the only recent ones which come to mind. And here are incredible news: All of them nichey games on physical disc WITHOUT limited accessibility of 30 minutes twice on one single day, without overpriced ebay selling beginning a couple of hours after the sales ended, and up for months so you can decide when and for which price you can purchase these games.

Incredible, it sounds like paradise for gamers and collectors, let's hope this utopian model will come true one day.

[Aussie2B]

In 15 minutes, the first batch of NeuroVoider and Drive! Drive! Drive! will be up for sale. There's also a CD soundtrack for NeuroVoider, for those who would be interested in that.

[Bojay1997]

This is a lot of euphemistic babble which sounds like a LR press release, too much to reply in a meaningful way. Let me address just two things:



1. Ebay scalping: It is not a Q if LR engages in ebay scalping, or if they invented it, or if they founded ebay. The fact is that LR tailors their businessmodel towards ebay scalpers, and then uses ebay scalping to push customers to buy their games. You draw a big separation line between LR and ebay scalping as an unfortunate and unavoidable consequence of modern times. That's not the case.

You and others and LR itself were very well aware of ebay scalping as soon as LR put limited production numbers on their games. You had to be a fool not to predict what happens next. Just read the first page of this thread shorty after LR was founded. Some expressed concern if the games would sell well enough, and then pointed to ebay scalping as an assurance that LR will sell their stock.

Quote: "And I suspect it'll go decently well for them since, even if the games stink, there are always collectors who want a rarity and scalpers who think they can make a buck off of rare games."

The answer to this post of the LR-guys themselves who went on a couple of websites to create a fanbase:

"Thank you for your support and understanding." (page 1, post #11, 10-15-2015)

And just a couple of weeks ago, when Strafe was sold, we all got in the mail this advertisement from Limited Run:

"The standard version of the game sold out several weeks ago and is already fetching several times the original retail price on secondary markets. (...) - head over to our site now and grab a copy!"

No, ebay scalping is not an unfortunate, unavoidable aftertaste of a wonderful heroic company. First, they created explicitly in interviews rarity hype (!) with the result of ebay scalping, and then they instrumentalize ebay scalping to push for sales of their games. A great company indeed. Artificially deflate the supply and artificially inflate the demand proved to be very successful.

And your reasoning that potentially everything nowadays, even my own toothbrush, might be a victim to ebay scalping reminds me of the reasoning that every game since Adam and Eve is potentially rare. It is ridiculous. LR actively uses ebay scalping as a sales strategy, while Nintendo, Sony, 505 Games or Soedesco do not although ebay scalpers use their products. Inflated ebay prices shortly after the release of a game happen but are very rare exceptions (in particular for indie games!), while they are the rule for LR games as the check for ebay prices clearly showed. And the reasoning that the majority of the games despite ebay scalping are in the hands of gamers and collectors is again euphemistic babble. If 60% were in the hands of gamers and 40% in the hands of scalpers, would that be satisfying? And should we really check additionally on the frequency of actual sales of the LR games on ebay? I think you'd be surprised.

The check of the average actual ebay prices for all the LR-games, but also in particular the high-in-demand games, showed that the factor 'ebay scalping' of the LR sales strategy works well indeed. The company achieved its goal. Once there is factual rarity hype of past games, it re-enforces rarity hype and drives sales of current games because they MIGHT (not necesserily are) pricey already a week after release. Rarity hype lives from uncertainty and the 'maybe'.

The nonsensical defense- and justification-reasoning can only be explained by this:



2. Fanbase creation: Your identification level with this company is incredibly high. You like these guys and admire them. They are like us, actually, you could be one of them. They created 'we' and 'us', and as soon as someone critisizes LR it is 'us' against 'them'. You accepted and swallowed everything bad and disadvantegous associated with their salesmodel. Everyone can see that their marketing strategy has only bad aspects for gamers and collectors, but you as part of them are no longer a customer, you are part of their business, and consequently, everything which helps them also helps you and -magically- everyone of us.

It was indeed a smart move of the LR-guys to go on websites like DP in this thread and flattering posters. This way they created a fanbase which roots for support and had high hopes that this company will do well.

I truly could understand your position IF Limited Run were the only company who puts great digital games on physical discs; but there were from the beginning of the LR-times other companies which started to do the same and don't rely on such a questionable salesmodel. Once in awhile a company puts production numbers on a game, see the collector editions of Tales of Zestiria and Tales of Berseria. In particular the latter immediately became the object of ebay scalpers to a disgusting extent. Limited Run put this bad program for regular releases in their name, centered their business model around rarity hype, created limited accessibility re-enforcing rarity hype as a fertile ground for ebay scalping. Good for them because they sell their stock of games, bad for us because they are doing it at the cost of gamers and collectors. Limited accessibility and inflated ebay prices are not a good service for gamers and collectors. Sales of these games can be done in a very different manner.

Soedesco has already or will release Rogue Stormers, 8-bit Armies, World to the West (!), Pharaonic and The Girl and the Robot within just two months. All of them nichey games on physical disc. We'll also get Matterfall (!), Inside/Limbo (!, 505 Games), and The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth+, and these are the only recent ones which come to mind. And here are incredible news: All of them nichey games on physical disc WITHOUT limited accessibility of 30 minutes twice on one single day, without overpriced ebay selling beginning a couple of hours after the sales ended, and up for months so you can decide when and for which price you can purchase these games.

Incredible, it sounds like paradise for gamers and collectors, let's hope this utopian model will come true one day.

Honestly, you sound like someone that spends a lot of time sitting around sniffing your own exhaust. You asked me why I support LRG and its products and I explained it to you. In exchange you haven't addressed any of my points, but have gone off on some esoteric rant about how I'm too stupid to realize that I have been duped and about how LRG is somehow a terrible anti-consumer company because they use the potential for a sellout to move product.

We are never going to agree on these points and your arguments represent a black and white worldview that is not consistent with the way life and the world actually operates. There is plenty of room in the market for LRG and 505 and Soedesco and everyone else right now. Maybe that won't remain the case, but as a consumer I appreciate having options and LRG is just another option that has some great titles in their back catalog and in their upcoming catalog.

It's really not hard to figure out, I take two minutes on my phone, I pay the $25 and shipping most of the titles cost and then in a week or two I have yet another Vita or PS4 game physically. I don't ever have to deal with Ebay or scalpers or inflated prices of anything else. LRG isn't charging a crazy markup on these games based on comparables with the companies selling at retail and LRG has been transparent about their revenue split with the developers. I can't say the same for Soedesco or 505 or anyone else as they rarely update their websites let alone communicate directly with consumers.

I mean as near as I can tell, your whole rap seems to be that you want unlimited time to decide if you want a game and then you want to be able to wait for a price cut below MSRP. I just don't operate that way. I am happy to accept a discount through Amazon Prime or Best Buy GCU, but I don't sit around worrying about saving literally a few dollars on a $20 or $25 game. Maybe Soedesco and 505 and THQ and the others feel they can operate consistently selling their games to you and everyone who thinks like you do for under MSRP. Hopefully that is the case and they can actually profit and stay in business. Unfortunately, a lot of similar companies got wiped on in the last two generations pursuing that low cost retail model which is why companies like Majesco are now gone. Even Maximum games that published a lot of cheap games on the Wii has moved on to mid-range and full price games as they understand that the lower end of the market is a very tough space.

[lendelin]

You asked me why I support LRG and its products and I explained it to you. In exchange you haven't addressed any of my points, but have gone off on some esoteric rant about how I'm too stupid to realize that I have been duped and about how LRG is somehow a terrible anti-consumer company because they use the potential for a sellout to move product.

I didn't ask you why you support LR in general and its products. My Q was more specific. I asked you why you defend the SALESMODEL of LR while (!) other small publishers prove again and again that a normal salesmodel works just fine. I didn't get an answer.

I have addressed specifically two points of your post, all the other points are already answered or were so unconvincingly general that I graciously overlooked them.

Btw, my rants are never esoteric! :)

Ok, here is another specific point you addressed in the last post and already a few times before:


It's really not hard to figure out, I take two minutes on my phone, I pay the $25 and shipping most of the titles cost and then in a week or two I have yet another Vita or PS4 game physically. I don't ever have to deal with Ebay or scalpers or inflated prices of anything else.

You prove exactly my point, you are a role-model LR-customer. You buy at release day in the first couple of minutes at least a lot (maybe all?) LR-games. Why? Because you don't want to deal with ebay scalpers! Why are ebay-scalpers all over LR-games? Because they are released and marketed (!) in limited production numbers, hyped as future rare games, and the games are very profitable for ebay scalpers PLUS Limited Run Games itself pushes their games with the threat that their games might cost multiple times their original price on ebay!

How many games do you have from Limited Run because of this salesmodel? And how many games don't you have yet from other smaller publishers because of a normal salesmodel?

Do you own the majority of and buy the games at release day from 505 Games, THQ Nordic, Badland Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games, PQube, Ghost Town Games, Signature Edition Games, im8bit, Fangamer and Soedesco? (just to name the ones which come to mind, just from Soedesco I have already over ten games, and still have more than ten on my list to buy.) If not, why not if you are such an enthusiastic supporter of and concerned about smaller publishers? Are you aware that the others, which struggle in this business like LR does, won't get your business because of the LR-salesmodel? (unless your monthly budget to buy games is unlimited)

Could it be you buy LR-games right away without a minute delay even during a flight because you don't want to pay later inflated ebay prices from 50% to 600% of the original retail price?

[kupomogli]

@Bojay

As lendlin stated though, them being in the same niche indie release line as other publishers, is taking away sales from those publishers as people know that they can't wait for a LRG release, while they can wait for another release that's available through Amazon as such. There are many different variables and no one can be sure of what would happen if this wasn't the case, but there's a good possibility that we'd actually see other publishers that are more profitable and potentially release more games if most of their audience didn't feel forced into buying a limited release that they have to be there and acquire at a very specific time otherwise they pay higher prices.

Additionally, it's better for the consumer, because you'd get these same games at retail for a lower cost than LRG is offering them for the most part. If Axiom Verge was released through LRG it'd be $29.99 at retail because it's $20 on PSN, while you can get the standard version for $20 at retail from BadLand Games. I can only assume that BadLands is getting a much lower margin of profit because they're offering it at a lower price, again, a plus for the consumer. Being retail we can additionally purchase and get other items shipped along with it, and it'll be cheaper shipping charges regardless, Amazon usually sends items in boxes as a standard, not an additional required fee.

Now the plus side is that there's a potential that many of these games wouldn't get released, we have no idea if LRG didn't go for them if anyone else would. So while we can point out that they have been harmful to the industry, something that's undeniable if you actually use some common sense, even with the higher priced costs, there's some great games that they've released that may have never been released(and some that I highly doubt would have ever been released. Mystery Chronicles: One Way Heroics is one I'm pretty sure wouldn't have had a release and that's one that I was actually interested before LRG even started publishing because I enjoyed the original PC release a lot.

I purchase games I like, so I'll continue to only purchase the LRG that I'm interested in. I'm not on a crusade to stop them from publishing games, because I really don't care, but LRG is both good and bad for the industry, and that's not even counting the OCD of collectors that also feed into it. The problem with people is most people will just accept a change even if they think it's unfair or don't like it. That's the reason games have DLC out the ass, that's the reason why a good majority of publishers are releasing season passes for every game they make, not because of me, but because the average consumer just bends over and takes it. If you want to just be the silent majority that's on you, but people that don't like these changes have every bit of a right to speak up about it. Will anything happen? No, because it's the average consumer that makes these changes go into effect, but doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't like the changes can't complain about it. Are you complaining on Jim Sterling's Youtube stfu and stop complaining about assett flippers on Steam, and state "people don't have to buy these assett flips and these shitty broken Steam games," etc? Jim Sterling is a pretty loud voice and it's taken this long for anything to be done with Steam's service, but even now it's still just as bad as it was. Our voice may not be as loud as Jim as to get anything done, but everyone has a right to complain about what they don't like. LRG certainly isn't anywhere near the Steam bs, I was just using that as an example, it's just something that is potentially worse for this industry than a standard practice.

[Bojay1997]

@Bojay

As lendlin stated though, them being in the same niche indie release line as other publishers, is taking away sales from those publishers as people know that they can't wait for a LRG release, while they can wait for another release that's available through Amazon as such. There are many different variables and no one can be sure of what would happen if this wasn't the case, but there's a good possibility that we'd actually see other publishers that are more profitable and potentially release more games if most of their audience didn't feel forced into buying a limited release that they have to be there and acquire at a very specific time otherwise they pay higher prices.

Additionally, it's better for the consumer, because you'd get these same games at retail for a lower cost than LRG is offering them for the most part. If Axiom Verge was released through LRG it'd be $29.99 at retail because it's $20 on PSN, while you can get the standard version for $20 at retail from BadLand Games. I can only assume that BadLands is getting a much lower margin of profit because they're offering it at a lower price, again, a plus for the consumer. Being retail we can additionally purchase and get other items shipped along with it, and it'll be cheaper shipping charges regardless, Amazon usually sends items in boxes as a standard, not an additional required fee.

Now the plus side is that there's a potential that many of these games wouldn't get released, we have no idea if LRG didn't go for them if anyone else would. So while we can point out that they have been harmful to the industry, something that's undeniable if you actually use some common sense, even with the higher priced costs, there's some great games that they've released that may have never been released(and some that I highly doubt would have ever been released. Mystery Chronicles: One Way Heroics is one I'm pretty sure wouldn't have had a release and that's one that I was actually interested before LRG even started publishing because I enjoyed the original PC release a lot.

I purchase games I like, so I'll continue to only purchase the LRG that I'm interested in. I'm not on a crusade to stop them from publishing games, because I really don't care, but LRG is both good and bad for the industry, and that's not even counting the OCD of collectors that also feed into it. The problem with people is most people will just accept a change even if they think it's unfair or don't like it. That's the reason games have DLC out the ass, that's the reason why a good majority of publishers are releasing season passes for every game they make, not because of me, but because the average consumer just bends over and takes it. If you want to just be the silent majority that's on you, but people that don't like these changes have every bit of a right to speak up about it. Will anything happen? No, because it's the average consumer that makes these changes go into effect, but doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't like the changes can't complain about it. Are you complaining on Jim Sterling's Youtube stfu and stop complaining about assett flippers on Steam, and state "people don't have to buy these assett flips and these shitty broken Steam games," etc? Jim Sterling is a pretty loud voice and it's taken this long for anything to be done with Steam's service, but even now it's still just as bad as it was. Our voice may not be as loud as Jim as to get anything done, but everyone has a right to complain about what they don't like. LRG certainly isn't anywhere near the Steam bs, I was just using that as an example, it's just something that is potentially worse for this industry than a standard practice.

Your entire first paragraph is literally 100% speculation. You have no idea what the market will or will not bear and there is no way to ever know that as every game is different and it's not the same few thousand customers that are buying every LRG release or every Soedesco release or whatever. I know plenty of people that buy every physical niche release and plenty who cherry pick like you do. If someone skips a week on LRG, it doesn't mean they are going to spend that money on a Soedesco game. They might spend it on food or rent or some completely different kind of collectible.

Soedesco just released Aerea at $40. At full price on Steam it's $30 and on sale it's obviously far less. Similarly, the upcoming World to the West is priced at $30 from Soedesco while it's $20 on PSN. Axiom Verge has been on sale multiple times on PSN since release and is a game that is now several years old. I mean the pricing from the retail publishers is really not much different than LRG and in fact, they produce far greater quantities and don't have the same logistical or overhead costs since they don't handle shipping, so the unit cost should be far below LRG on most games and yet they don't pass along those savings as far as I can tell.

I agree with you that there are clearly games that only LRG would release.

I agree with you on day one DLC, but I don't know what that has to do with LRG. I don't believe that LRG's model is either pro or anti consumer just like I don't think that Soedesco or any of the other companies are particularly pro or anti consumer. They're just different models and people are free to vote with their wallets.

Finally, I agree that people have a right to express their opinion. Just because someone expresses an opinion doesn't mean that it's factually correct or the truth. I think one of the problems here and in the world in general is that people think everything has to be one extreme or another. The truth is that there are often many sides to an issue and trying to prove that a company or a person is just one specific thing (in this case either good or bad for consumers) is a truly foolish effort.

[Bojay1997]

Do
I didn't ask you why you support LR in general and its products. My Q was more specific. I asked you why you defend the SALESMODEL of LR while (!) other small publishers prove again and again that a normal salesmodel works just fine. I didn't get an answer.

I have addressed specifically two points of your post, all the other points are already answered or were so unconvincingly general that I graciously overlooked them.

Btw, my rants are never esoteric! :)

Ok, here is another specific point you addressed in the last post and already a few times before:



You prove exactly my point, you are a role-model LR-customer. You buy at release day in the first couple of minutes at least a lot (maybe all?) LR-games. Why? Because you don't want to deal with ebay scalpers! Why are ebay-scalpers all over LR-games? Because they are released and marketed (!) in limited production numbers, hyped as future rare games, and the games are very profitable for ebay scalpers PLUS Limited Run Games itself pushes their games with the threat that their games might cost multiple times their original price on ebay!

How many games do you have from Limited Run because of this salesmodel? And how many games don't you have yet from other smaller publishers because of a normal salesmodel?

Do you own the majority of and buy the games at release day from 505 Games, THQ Nordic, Badland Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games, PQube, Ghost Town Games, Signature Edition Games, im8bit, Fangamer and Soedesco? (just to name the ones which come to mind, just from Soedesco I have already over ten games, and still have more than ten on my list to buy.) If not, why not if you are such an enthusiastic supporter of and concerned about smaller publishers? Are you aware that the others, which struggle in this business like LR does, won't get your business because of the LR-salesmodel? (unless your monthly budget to buy games is unlimited)

Could it be you buy LR-games right away without a minute delay even during a flight because you don't want to pay later inflated ebay prices from 50% to 600% of the original retail price?

I buy or preorder every niche game as soon as it's available. I don't even think about Ebay or scalping. There is no point in waiting to order something as most niche titles don't drop much in price over time and they often go out of print long before the price is slashed. I own or have preordered every release by every company you have listed (although I don't think Ghost Town distributes their own games, I believe I bought Overcooked from Sold Out). I do the same thing with limited and collector's edition games. I know many, many people that do the same thing. Frankly, all of the major publishers rely on the perception that supplies may be limited as do retailers to drive preorders. Sometimes they are actually limited and sometimes they aren't. From my perspective, it doesn't matter since it doesn't cost anything to preorder on Amazon, Best Buy or Gamestop.com.

[lendelin]

DoI buy or preorder every niche game as soon as it's available. I don't even think about Ebay or scalping. There is no point in waiting to order something as most niche titles don't drop much in price over time and they often go out of print long before the price is slashed. I own or have preordered every release by every company you have listed (although I don't think Ghost Town distributes their own games, I believe I bought Overcooked from Sold Out). I do the same thing with limited and collector's edition games. I know many, many people that do the same thing. Frankly, all of the major publishers rely on the perception that supplies may be limited as do retailers to drive preorders. Sometimes they are actually limited and sometimes they aren't. From my perspective, it doesn't matter since it doesn't cost anything to preorder on Amazon, Best Buy or Gamestop.com.

If you buy EVERY game at release day from every publisher I listed, then you must have around 200 niche games for the PS4 alone. If you buy collector editions and limited editions as well with pre-order, then money doesn't play a role for you to buy games. I guess you buy then all the soundtrack bundles from LR as well.

Now I understand your positive attitude towards Limited Run Games. Because you can afford all the games you want, you can also afford a positive opinion about Limited Run. Of course you couldn't care less how Limited Run sells their games, even with a worse salesmodel than Limited Run, you get your games anyway. Of course you couldn't care less then if the LR games are scalped on ebay because with the money you can spend you are not confronted with ebay scalpers.

Please consider, however, that you and the "many, many people" you know who do the same, are in an incredible privileged position! This is a big exception! There are gamers and collectors out there who don't have this kind of money available, there are young fathers and mothers, undergrad and grad students who like games and like to collect games, and then there is the traditional stingy collector like me who could afford more but gets his games cheap. I already spend a LOT of money each month on games, but not even close to the amount of money you can obviously afford. I know a younger guy whose second child is on the way and therefore sold a lot of his GameCube games. What do you think he would say about the salesmodel of Limited Run and the lucky financial position you are in?

And yes, even niche titles drop in price over time if you are patient! You probably didn't notice it because for you it isn't necessary to check on the prices for these games because you have them all already, but a $30 game usually drops to $20 and below, some around $10, even after years you can get them cheap. This might not be a lot for you, and doesn't play a role for you because you have lots of money to spend on games, but for others it adds up and is important..

You could demand from me that I should give all the publishers generously retail price like you do, but frankly, if I did I couldn't afford the games in the numbers you obviously have. My budget is limited, yours is not.

Btw, I completely agree with kupomogli about the customers and business shares LR takes away from the other small publishers. The niche market is way too small and too similar that the likelihood this isn't the case is VERY low.

I also agree with you and kupomogli that probably LR picked up a couple of games (probably around 10-15) which others couldn't because they have the guarantee to sell all the games. (because of their terrible salesmodel with all the negative consequences!) But the other games would have been probably picked up by other publishers. This niche market is growing, and as soon a game smells like profit, the publishers will be after it. Mutant Mudds too nichey, as you said, for another small publisher? I don't think so. Wasn't Mutant Mudds one of the best selling games in the NIntendo e-shop?

Btw, BOTH issues are hypothetical, but there are also for both cases economic models which predict the outcome. However, like all the sciences which deal with human behaviour they are very good in hindsight analysis, not so good with predictability.

[Bojay1997]

If you buy EVERY game at release day from every publisher I listed, then you must have around 200 niche games for the PS4 alone. If you buy collector editions and limited editions as well with pre-order, then money doesn't play a role for you to buy games. I guess you buy then all the soundtrack bundles from LR as well.

Now I understand your positive attitude towards Limited Run Games. Because you can afford all the games you want, you can also afford a positive opinion about Limited Run. Of course you couldn't care less how Limited Run sells their games, even with a worse salesmodel than Limited Run, you get your games anyway. Of course you couldn't care less then if the LR games are scalped on ebay because with the money you can spend you are not confronted with ebay scalpers.

Please consider, however, that you and the "many, many people" you know who do the same, are in an incredible privileged position! This is a big exception! There are gamers and collectors out there who don't have this kind of money available, there are young fathers and mothers, undergrad and grad students who like games and like to collect games, and then there is the traditional stingy collector like me who could afford more but gets his games cheap. I already spend a LOT of money each month on games, but not even close to the amount of money you can obviously afford. I know a younger guy whose second child is on the way and therefore sold a lot of his GameCube games. What do you think he would say about the salesmodel of Limited Run and the lucky financial position you are in?

And yes, even niche titles drop in price over time if you are patient! You probably didn't notice it because for you it isn't necessary to check on the prices for these games because you have them all already, but a $30 game usually drops to $20 and below, some around $10, even after years you can get them cheap. This might not be a lot for you, and doesn't play a role for you because you have lots of money to spend on games, but for others it adds up and is important..

You could demand from me that I should give all the publishers generously retail price like you do, but frankly, if I did I couldn't afford the games in the numbers you obviously have. My budget is limited, yours is not.

Btw, I completely agree with kupomogli about the customers and business shares LR takes away from the other small publishers. The niche market is way too small and too similar that the likelihood this isn't the case is VERY low.

I also agree with you and kupomogli that probably LR picked up a couple of games (probably around 10-15) which others couldn't because they have the guarantee to sell all the games. (because of their terrible salesmodel with all the negative consequences!) But the other games would have been probably picked up by other publishers. This niche market is growing, and as soon a game smells like profit, the publishers will be after it. Mutant Mudds too nichey, as you said, for another small publisher? I don't think so. Wasn't Mutant Mudds one of the best selling games in the NIntendo e-shop?

Btw, BOTH issues are hypothetical, but there are also for both cases economic models which predict the outcome. However, like all the sciences which deal with human behaviour they are very good in hindsight analysis, not so good with predictability.

Physical games are a luxury. Nobody needs to own physical copies of games. I make a good living, but I'm certainly not going to apologize for that, especially since I have worked very hard my entire life to have the success I have had. Having said that, I am careful with my money, but I also am not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about trying to save a few dollars for niche games. Many people waste money on Starbucks, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, alcohol and all sorts of other things. People get to set their priorities in life and if someone chooses to have kids when they don't have the financial means to do so, it's a choice they can make, but I'm not going to feel bad that they then can't buy physical games. Games are my indulgence and something that makes me happy.

The fact that LRG is releasing games that would never get a release from anyone else is proof to me that their model isn't really terrible at all. It's necessary and beneficial to collectors. I also appreciate that LRG is very generous in their sharing of revenues with the developers as I think developers deserve to reap the rewards for their hard work.

If Soedesco and the others can't compete with LRG, they need to find a way to do so. That's the way capitalism works. They can cut prices, secure exclusives that LRG can't get or do any of a number of other things. Personally, I think they're doing fine and that the market will keep growing. 20 years from now we'll know for sure which of us was right.

[lendelin]

Physical games are a luxury. Nobody needs to own physical copies of games. I make a good living, but I'm certainly not going to apologize for that, especially since I have worked very hard my entire life to have the success I have had. Having said that, I am careful with my money, but I also am not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about trying to save a few dollars for niche games. Many people waste money on Starbucks, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, alcohol and all sorts of other things. People get to set their priorities in life and if someone chooses to have kids when they don't have the financial means to do so, it's a choice they can make, but I'm not going to feel bad that they then can't buy physical games. Games are my indulgence and something that makes me happy.

The fact that LRG is releasing games that would never get a release from anyone else is proof to me that their model isn't really terrible at all. It's necessary and beneficial to collectors. I also appreciate that LRG is very generous in their sharing of revenues with the developers as I think developers deserve to reap the rewards for their hard work.

If Soedesco and the others can't compete with LRG, they need to find a way to do so. That's the way capitalism works. They can cut prices, secure exclusives that LRG can't get or do any of a number of other things. Personally, I think they're doing fine and that the market will keep growing. 20 years from now we'll know for sure which of us was right.

I have to be honest. I'm pretty shocked about your attitude. This is a pretty elitist-arrogant attitude towards collecting from a guy who has enough money to buy so pretty much every game he wants.

If you own and buy (pre-order) at retail EVERY game by THQ Nordic, Soedesco, 505 Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games and the games of all the others niche publishers (including probably also NIS) PLUS all the Limited Run games and every possible collectors and limited edition, that makes alone well over $600 a month just for niche games. Aditionally there are mainstream games, plus probably games for older systems...guy, that is a lot of money and probably $2000 just for games every month.

This is not an accusation because I honestly believe that you deserve this kind of money and you certainly can invest it in your hobby, to buy games for it makes much more sense to me than buying cars. :) But please understand that you are in an exceptionally privileged position and that this is not the position of your average gamer and collector. If I'd make a survey here and would ask how many DP-members buy EVERY game at retail of the publisher I listed in the above post PLUS Limited Run games at retail, I bet that would not even be 5%. If this were 6% I'd be very surprised.

Now I understand your opinion about LR. No matter how LR sells their games, you get your games anyway. They could publish games with a printrun of 500 and sell the game for $250, you get your games anyway without problems.

The fact that you are not concerned of possible copycats of the terrible LR-salesmodel with rarity hype, ebay scalping and the instrumentalization of ebay scalping by Limited Run itself in order to push sales is troublesome but understandable. If there were even 6 companies like Limited Run, you'd get your games anyway. You couldn't care less about the negative consequences of a salesmodel for many because it doesn't affect you as a minority.

Now I understand that I never heard a word from you about the sentence by LR in their email 'get it now on our website before you pay the multiple price for it on ebay.' It doesn't concern you because it doesn't have to concern you. As long as you get games from LR, no matter how, everything is good and you can have a very good opinion about the owners as gamers, collectors, and developers like us.

That you see LR as beneficial for collectors because of ten games which probably wouldn't have been picked up by other publishers is again very understandable. The negative overshadowing consequences of their sales model doesn't affect you at all. To refer to capitalism, supply and demand, adaptation, survive or go under is very easy to say for someone who doesn't have to be concerned about price development for niche games.

That you regard physical copies as a 'luxury which nobody needs to own' fits the picture. The questionable salesmodel of LR is pretty out of reach if tailored toward the elitist collector. Possibly luxury prices for luxury products in the future?, $30 for you for niche games are very cheap and very affordable.

I have to be honest. I dislike your attitude. I think this is an elitist collectors attitude.

PS: How do you know that LR is "very generous" towards developers in sharing revenues. Do you know how much developers get from Limited Run? Do you know how much they get fom Maximum Games, 505 Games and Soedesco and all the other smaller publishers? Or is that again just a very nice assumption?

[Bojay1997]

I have to be honest. I'm pretty shocked about your attitude. This is a pretty elitist-arrogant attitude towards collecting from a guy who has enough money to buy so pretty much every game he wants.

If you own and buy (pre-order) at retail EVERY game by THQ Nordic, Soedesco, 505 Games, Rising Star, Maximum Games and the games of all the others niche publishers (including probably also NIS) PLUS all the Limited Run games and every possible collectors and limited edition, that makes alone well over $600 a month just for niche games. Aditionally there are mainstream games, plus probably games for older systems...guy, that is a lot of money and probably $2000 just for games every month.

This is not an accusation because I honestly believe that you deserve this kind of money and you certainly can invest it in your hobby, to buy games for it makes much more sense to me than buying cars. :) But please understand that you are in an exceptionally privileged position and that this is not the position of your average gamer and collector. If I'd make a survey here and would ask how many DP-members buy EVERY game at retail of the publisher I listed in the above post PLUS Limited Run games at retail, I bet that would not even be 5%. If this were 6% I'd be very surprised.

Now I understand your opinion about LR. No matter how LR sells their games, you get your games anyway. They could publish games with a printrun of 500 and sell the game for $250, you get your games anyway without problems.

The fact that you are not concerned of possible copycats of the terrible LR-salesmodel with rarity hype, ebay scalping and the instrumentalization of ebay scalping by Limited Run itself in order to push sales is troublesome but understandable. If there were even 6 companies like Limited Run, you'd get your games anyway. You couldn't care less about the negative consequences of a salesmodel for many because it doesn't affect you as a minority.

Now I understand that I never heard a word from you about the sentence by LR in their email 'get it now on our website before you pay the multiple price for it on ebay.' It doesn't concern you because it doesn't have to concern you. As long as you get games from LR, no matter how, everything is good and you can have a very good opinion about the owners as gamers, collectors, and developers like us.

That you see LR as beneficial for collectors because of ten games which probably wouldn't have been picked up by other publishers is again very understandable. The negative overshadowing consequences of their sales model doesn't affect you at all. To refer to capitalism, supply and demand, adaptation, survive or go under is very easy to say for someone who doesn't have to be concerned about price development for niche games.

That you regard physical copies as a 'luxury which nobody needs to own' fits the picture. The questionable salesmodel of LR is pretty out of reach if tailored toward the elitist collector. Possibly luxury prices for luxury products in the future?, $30 for you for niche games are very cheap and very affordable.

I have to be honest. I dislike your attitude. I think this is an elitist collectors attitude.

PS: How do you know that LR is "very generous" towards developers in sharing revenues. Do you know how much developers get from Limited Run? Do you know how much they get fom Maximum Games, 505 Games and Soedesco and all the other smaller publishers? Or is that again just a very nice assumption?

Nothing but hyperbole on your part. Most LRG games are very affordable at $25 and a maximum of $5.25 shipping for multiple games on a release day. Millions of people regularly spend $60 on new release games and tens of thousands of people regularly spend hundreds on LE and CE games at major retailers. LRG doesn't cater to the elite because literally anyone can take two minutes on a release day and get what they want for less than half of what a new release costs at most retailers.

I don't care if you like my attitude or not. Your opinion about me means nothing and has no relevance to the discussion.

LRG has broken down how the numbers work for a release through them several times. In addition, LRG did a comparison of what the developer of Axiom Verge would have received from them in a single day sale versus what the developer will get if Badlands sells through the entire retail print run (which is pretty unlikely to happen) and the revenue share is better through LRG even given the far smaller quantity produced.

[lendelin]

Nothing but hyperbole on your part. Most LRG games are very affordable at $25 and a maximum of $5.25 shipping for multiple games on a release day. Millions of people regularly spend $60 on new release games and tens of thousands of people regularly spend hundreds on LE and CE games at major retailers. LRG doesn't cater to the elite because literally anyone can take two minutes on a release day and get what they want for less than half of what a new release costs at most retailers.

I don't care if you like my attitude or not. Your opinion about me means nothing and has no relevance to the discussion.

LRG has broken down how the numbers work for a release through them several times. In addition, LRG did a comparison of what the developer of Axiom Verge would have received from them in a single day sale versus what the developer will get if Badlands sells through the entire retail print run (which is pretty unlikely to happen) and the revenue share is better through LRG even given the far smaller quantity produced.


Oh geez. Seriously? :)

You compare $60 for triple AAA titles like Uncharted and Breath of the Wild to $25 Neurovoider? Should this show how affordable LR games are? Seriously?

'Millions of gamers spend $60 for games and tens of thousands of people buy Limited Editions' Should this show that someone who spends well over $1000 a month on games is like everyone else? Seriously? I can tell you, the average gamer (and lots of them) buy the Steelbook edition of the new FF XIII but they won't spend then $1500 for other games.

The other stuff is from LR and of course I believe (and we all should) every word from them.

This discussion is over on my part. Put defense walls up as high as nonsense can go. It starts to hurt intellectually. I mean that in all seriousness!