Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
I don't think Wizardry "needs" to be included as an RPG. I think it's okay to say, maybe Wizardry isn't really an RPG. If you really have to bend over backwards with all sorts of qualifiers to include something, then maybe it's better to exclude it.
The problem there is that, as Gabriel pointed out, Wizardry was one of the founding games and early definers of the genre. There is far more bending-over-backwards involved in excluding it than in including it. And what's more is if Wizardry is excluded then we have to disclude a lot of other founding games of the genre--Akalabeth, Might & Magic, Bard's Tale, Eye of the Beholder, the list goes on and on and on...

Dungeon Crawlers are definitely RPGs. The early D&D games and modules were little more than long dungeon crawls, so games like Wizardry are building off a strong precedent.

Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
I just thought of something else which I'll throw out there. In many reviews for older RPGs like Ultima II, the reviewers commented the defining factor as to whether a player could beat the game was mere time investment. Since statistics defined the gameplay, and experience gained for periods of play upgraded statistics, it was only a matter of time before your characters developed enough power to be able to tackle the endgame.

This isn't exactly true. Puzzles can considerably hold a player up. But the point was that the elements which presented roadblocks were external instead of internal to the game. Not being able to finish the game because of a brainteaser is different from not being able to complete a game because you keep on mistiming the jump button during the part with the moving platforms.

So, maybe that's the key. If beating the game is ultimately dependent on grinding levels with the only other obstacles to defeating the game being external to the game, then it's a RPG. It's food for thought anyway.
Time Investment = RPG? No. IMO that's on about the same page as "it has to be top-view." Especially considering your example of Ultima II, a game that can be beaten in less than thirty minutes (most early RPGs, in fact, were rather short, and got much shorter if you went into them knowing what you had to do to win).

By the way, grinding and levelling up only increased your Hit Points. You had to do something else to raise your stats.