Im glad Daltone posted those pictures if anyone held the controller like that and complaining.
Im glad Daltone posted those pictures if anyone held the controller like that and complaining.
Daltone, the hands in your first screenshot belong to sikraiken, one of the best players at Shmups Forum, if that means anything.
Here's where it originally came from:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22708
The basic problem with the "correct" control layout is that you don't get access to the left shoulder and moving to the d-pad requires moving your whole grip awkwardly (although I bet sik could do it on account of his extra long thumb), whereas the "wrong" grip method lets you just slide your thumb over - like every other modern controller.
Getting to the Z-trigger with that control method isn't any problem. I can reach it easily with either index finger.
Nope, I've never had any problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. It is a bit tiring compared to the usual style, but that just makes for stronger hands. On the plus side I gain a bit in speed because I'm not doing strange things to get to all the controls. Of course, none of this would be an issue if they didn't create a left handle you weren't supposed to use, and if they grouped the left-hand-side controls more closely to each other (and the left joystick a bit closer to the left grip handle), which would have been the sane thing to do.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 04-08-2013 at 03:57 PM.
Why? Any game that doesn't use the control pad doesn't need the L button. That's what the Z trigger is, a L button replacement when you're using the control stick.Originally Posted by Ed Oscuro
Yeah, when the game is designed to be played with that configuration. The middle bit is also a handle. So you're not using a handle either way.p.s. there's a handle on the left side of the controller, why should Nintendo have made it so people wouldn't be able to use it? I had my PlayStation only slightly before the N64, but that didn't influence my thinking. The N64 controller just looks like it's meant to be held with both hands on the wings.
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People just need to shut the fuck up about this god damn thing.
@ Adventurer: Pull your head out and see that any controller which has a button "just for show" is a flawed design. This could've easily been remedied, even while keeping the basic controller design.
Didn't I already say what you can do when you don't like a topic? Yeah, I'm going to just start reporting posts like this. If nobody wants to discuss something, the topic will die right away.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro; 04-08-2013 at 04:03 PM.
Its not 'just for show' the L button is used when the Control Pad is used. Granted isn't very often, I know I used it to play Killer Instinct.
Last edited by The Adventurer; 04-08-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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It's still a stupid design, how many other controllers is it even possible to hold incorrectly by mistake? For anyone coming off the SNES you'd assume you put your hand so you'd have access to the D-pad and left trigger, I can't imagine anyone just seeing the N64 at launch and automatically knowing to ignore the entire left side of the controller. It's just an awkward design for a controller and I'm glad nothing similar was used for any other console.
Yeah, those pictures are correct. I also have never seen anyone who held it like that upper picture; I know some people on the internet claim to, but still can't quite believe that anyone would actually, seriously, hold it in such a bizarre way... why in the world would anyone even THINK of doing that for more than a couple of seconds? It's near-impossible to believe. The second picture is how it's used.
You can stop right there, as I and anyone else who's actually used the N64 would know, you virtually never have to do this. So what you are talking about is entirely irrelevant.
Maybe, but very uncomfortably. The Z button is called a "trigger" button for a reason -- you use it like a trigger, with your finger wrapped around the button. Some bizarre holding scheme with you holdung the side and reaching over to the center is NOT how it's intended, and if it's uncomfortable who cares? You do not hold the controller that way. It's an easy controller to figure out how to use. Very simple and uncomplicated. Left and right for dpad games, center and right for analog games. Easy as that.Getting to the Z-trigger with that control method isn't any problem. I can reach it easily with either index finger.
You don't gain any speed whatsoever because games do not have you use both the dpad and analog stick at the same time, ever, in over 99% of titles on the platform. You gain absolutely nothing, and lose a lot in comfort and ease of use.Nope, I've never had any problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. It is a bit tiring compared to the usual style, but that just makes for stronger hands. On the plus side I gain a bit in speed because I'm not doing strange things to get to all the controls.
What they did was design the best layout ever for a controller with both an analog stick and d-pad on it. On most controllers one or the other is a little more uncomfortable to use, like how you have to uncomfortably angle your thumbs down to use the analog sticks on Sony controllers. On the N64, though, by having you actually hold a different thing for each control method, both are perfectly comfortable, in ways that are impossible on standard two-prong controllers. It was a brilliant design, and works perfectly. And that's an important part of why the controller still might be my favorite: no discomfort from having to reach to a thing that's not in the right place!Of course, none of this would be an issue if they didn't create a left handle you weren't supposed to use, and if they grouped the left-hand-side controls more closely to each other (and the left joystick a bit closer to the left grip handle), which would have been the sane thing to do.
And in case you aren't clear, the left handle is there for 2d games or 3d games that use the d-pad. You know, like all of the fighting and wrestling games, and some platformers like Kirby as well. Puzzle games are also often better with the d-pad. The idea was to have a familiar controller for 2d games, and also a good controller for 3d games, both in one. What ended up happening was that almost all games were 3d, so the 2d side ended up little-used, but how could Nintendo have known that before the system released?
The N64 controller doesn't have any buttons that are there just for show. 2d-control games use L instead of Z for the left side button, after all.
It's a great design, and was successful in its time; note how some other early analog controllers, like the 3DO M2's prototype controller or the analog Nuon pad, are N64 clone pads. N64 clone controllers were also very common in handheld Famiclones.
It is true that after that generation Sony's awful design won out, but seriously, the N64 controller is not that hard to learn, and bashing it just because it takes a couple of seconds to figure out is silly. What, as if someone who doesn't know would find the PS3 or 360 controllers approachable either, with so many buttons and sticks on them? Hah!
Last edited by A Black Falcon; 04-08-2013 at 04:13 PM.
I for one am prepared to defend a controller design that doesn't make all its buttons accessible...TO THE DEATH. Because what do we use these things for again?
Just a few minor changes could've pleased both groups...the people who like maximum control on the one hand, and the people who play RPGs and two-button action games on the other. Nobody's comfort had to be sacrificed.
p.s. In case it's gone over your head, "legitimate / constructive criticsm" is not the same thing as "this is the worst thing ever," so don't get too excited.
Well yea, you wouldn’t have that problem because both of those grips are symmetrical and don’t force you to bend the wrists much while holding the controller. Yea, if it was designed that way from the start I’d have no complaints about it.
Lets all look back at the title, and then discuss that.
The title should be edited to discuss the controller. Seriously, there have to be a dozen threads asking about the best or worst N64 games. The question has been asked so often nobody cares about it anymore. I've only bothered looking up a few of those threads but I'm sure there's more.
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...best-N64-games
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...he-Nintendo-64
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...-64-games-list
I don't want to toot my own horn here, but I WAS the only person who mentioned anything off the beaten path. And then that got totally sidetracked by other peoples' questions and attempted rebuttals of my position RE the controller. Yeah, topics evolve. I am sorry for the tone the thread has taken but we don't need any censorship. At the same time I have to admit we actually did get some things figured out about the design. The thread wasn't entirely wasted.
If you want to talk about only what you want to talk about, get a blog.
Because every game ever made has always made use of every single button available on its controller every time at all times.
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See my post above. That's not my argument or even a reasonable way of trying to twist it.
For using two different ways depending on which kind of game you're using with it. You know, like how two-prong-controller systems often have games that use either the left analog stick or dpad. Dpad games usually make no use of the analog stick, and only some analog stick games use the d-pad. The N64 controller is like that, just with a more comfortable design that fits both styles better than any two-side controller could.
Minor changes? Like what, that Hori thing? No thanks...Just a few minor changes could've pleased both groups...the people who like maximum control on the one hand, and the people who play RPGs and two-button action games on the other. Nobody's comfort had to be sacrificed.
p.s. In case it's gone over your head, "legitimate / constructive criticsm" is not the same thing as "this is the worst thing ever," so don't get too excited.
I don't know, it seems like a good point... games usually don't use every button and stick on a controller. Different kinds of games use different things. What's so wrong with keeping that in mind when designing the controller originally?
Last edited by A Black Falcon; 04-08-2013 at 05:53 PM.
What's wrong with designing the controller so you can access every button without changing your grip? This is REALLY low-hanging fruit, man.
Why do you care so much if you can access buttons that you have no need to access in the games where you hold it that way?
Seriously, your entire argument makes no sense. You'll have to put down the controller anyway to get up and put in a different game, why do you care so much if you also pick it up a different way after doing so? It makes no sense. Stop thinking that you need to use buttons you don't need to use. They exist for the d-pad style, not the analog one.
Last edited by A Black Falcon; 04-09-2013 at 01:40 AM.
The N64 has a great D-Pad.
Not really.
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